Wesleyan Church Open to Merger?

[Kevin Jackson]

This is interesting, from the Wesleyan Church:

"Approved a resolution authorizing the Board of General Superintendents to pursue further discussions with other like-minded holiness denominations regarding the possibility of creating a new holiness denomination for the 21st century."

Found this on Ken Schenck's Blog.

[Todd Erickson]

What, precisely, is a holiness denomination in this day and age?

Or, perhaps more to the point, what would it mean for people under 50?

[Wilson Deaton]

A couple of years ago, I was in a small-group conversation with a G.S. (between sessions at a district assembly I think) and he said that meetings and discussions with the Wesleyan G.S.s were always friendly and cordial AS LONG AS NO ONE BROUGHT UP THE "M" WORD.

Wilson

[David Graham]

This from memory has been discussed previously (pre-crash). I don't know what the Wesleyan Church is like in the USA but out here they are neo-fundamentalists, with a much more literalist interpretation of the scriptures as well as being strong on "premillenialism". Even though the CoTN in Australia is more conservative than I would like, they certainly don't fit into this category. And since the Wesleyans outnumber the Nazarenes out here by at least 2 to 1, I wonder how much freedom individual Nazarenes will have with regard to their personal beliefs about the bible etc. I'll be interested to see what the terms of any amalgamation will be not to mention the new agreed upon articles of faith.

Blessings,
Dave

[Jim Chabot]

This from memory has been discussed previously (pre-crash). I don't know what the Wesleyan Church is like in the USA but out here they are neo-fundamentalists, with a much more literalist interpretation of the scriptures as well as being strong on "premillenialism". Even though the CoTN in Australia is more conservative than I would like, they certainly don't fit into this category. And since the Wesleyans outnumber the Nazarenes out here by at least 2 to 1, I wonder how much freedom individual Nazarenes will have with regard to their personal beliefs about the bible etc. I'll be interested to see what the terms of any amalgamation will be not to mention the new agreed upon articles of faith.

Blessings,
Dave

The Wesleyan's that I have encountered here view the CotN as too liberal for them, they do believe in innerancy regarding scripture. But what they point to more often than not is that the Nazarenes are soft on sexual sin and divorce, in their opinion. My take has been that the Wesleyan's are serious about holiness, I would welcome their influence in that regard!

A couple of excerpts from their statements:

218. We believe that the books of the Old and New Testaments constitute the Holy Scriptures. They are the inspired and infallibly written Word of God, fully inerrant in their original manuscripts and superior to all human authority, and have been transmitted to the present without corruption of any essential doctrine. We believe that they contain all things necessary to salvation; so that whatever is not read therein, nor may be proved thereby, is not to be required of any man or woman that it should be believed as an article of faith, or be thought requisite or necessary to salvation. Both in the Old and New Testaments life is offered ultimately through Christ, who is the only Mediator between God and humanity. The New Testament teaches Christians how to fulfill the moral principles of the Old Testament, calling for loving obedience to God made possible by the indwelling presence of His Holy Spirit.


222. We believe that every person is created in the image of God, that human sexuality reflects that image in terms of intimate love, communication, fellowship, subordination of the self to the larger whole, and fulfillment. God's Word makes use of the marriage relationship as the supreme metaphor for His relationship with His covenant people and for revealing the truth that that relationship is of one God with one people. Therefore God's plan for human sexuality is that it is to be expressed only in a monogamous lifelong relationship between one man and one woman within the framework of marriage. This is the only relationship which is divinely designed for the birth and rearing of children and is a covenant union made in the sight of God, taking priority over every other human relationship.

[Ryan Scott]

That's language very similar to a resolution our General Assembly passed last summer. I think it's generally an ongoing idea to speak about merger.

[Greg Farra]

If it's anything like the Lutheran merger went, you'll end up with a more liberal denomination. 2 large and 1 small alaphabet soup Lutheran groups merged and they didn't hash out everything beforehand, especially with regards to sexuality. What we wound up with was the incredible shrinking denomination.

[John Kennedy]

From the standpointof one sitting outside, I'm not real sure what the Wesleyans would gain from such a merger - for them It could turn out to be more of a case of 'swallowship' rather than fellowship.

Interestingly enough, I heard that term 'swallowship' used nearly 50 years ago in a Naz youth group discussion of the possibility of a three-way Naz/FM/Wesleyan merger. That was a few years before the Pilgrim/Wesleyan Methodist merger that resulted in the Wesleyan Church.

[Shea Zellweger]

From the standpointof one sitting outside, I'm not real sure what the Wesleyans would gain from such a merger - for them It could turn out to be more of a case of 'swallowship' rather than fellowship.

Interestingly enough, I heard that term 'swallowship' used nearly 50 years ago in a Naz youth group discussion of the possibility of a three-way Naz/FM/Wesleyan merger. That was a few years before the Pilgrim/Wesleyan Methodist merger that resulted in the Wesleyan Church.

Once upon a time, I heard that a merger proposed to the Wesleyans included each denomination contributing 2/3 of their current GS- Wesleyans had 3, Nazarenes had 6, so they'd contribute 2 and 4, respectively. Although this would have put Wesleyans in the minority, it actually gave them a much larger representation, proportionately speaking. Similar concessions would've been made at other organizational levels.

[Hans Deventer]

I'm happy with a merger, unless we were to adopt this article without any changes:

218. We believe that the books of the Old and New Testaments constitute the Holy Scriptures. They are the inspired and infallibly written Word of God, fully inerrant in their original manuscripts and superior to all human authority, and have been transmitted to the present without corruption of any essential doctrine. We believe that they contain all things necessary to salvation; so that whatever is not read therein, nor may be proved thereby, is not to be required of any man or woman that it should be believed as an article of faith, or be thought requisite or necessary to salvation. Both in the Old and New Testaments life is offered ultimately through Christ, who is the only Mediator between God and humanity. The New Testament teaches Christians how to fulfill the moral principles of the Old Testament, calling for loving obedience to God made possible by the indwelling presence of His Holy Spirit.

[Billy Cox]

I'm happy with a merger, unless we were to adopt this article without any changes:

They are the inspired and infallibly written Word of God, fully inerrant in their original manuscripts and superior to all human authority, and have been transmitted to the present without corruption of any essential doctrine. We believe that they contain all things necessary to salvation

That seems to be functionally the same as our statement, just sneakier. Considering that we have no original manuscripts, saying that they are fully inerrant is meaningless, but I guess that it was enough to appease *their* fundamentalist insurgents.

[Shea Zellweger]

That seems to be functionally the same as our statement, just sneakier. Considering that we have no original manuscripts, saying that they are fully inerrant is meaningless, but I guess that it was enough to appease *their* fundamentalist insurgents.

but I don't affirm that they are fully inerrant in the original manuscripts, as I believe that Scripture has been generally well-preserved (not perfectly, but mostly) over the course of history. Those original manuscripts would have to leave out several large sections of Scripture which, although I don't affirm them as "fully inerrant" in regard to certain disciplines, I still feel are vital to our understanding of God. The "original manuscript" ploy is just a lose-lose for me.

[Hans Deventer]

That seems to be functionally the same as our statement, just sneakier. Considering that we have no original manuscripts, saying that they are fully inerrant is meaningless, but I guess that it was enough to appease *their* fundamentalist insurgents.

I guess so too, but it is still a very mistaken way of looking at divine inspiration.

[Billy Cox]

but I don't affirm that they are fully inerrant in the original manuscripts, as I believe that Scripture has been generally well-preserved (not perfectly, but mostly) over the course of history. Those original manuscripts would have to leave out several large sections of Scripture which, although I don't affirm them as "fully inerrant" in regard to certain disciplines, I still feel are vital to our understanding of God. The "original manuscript" ploy is just a lose-lose for me.

I agree that it's clunky in a big way, but it's not as big a deal-breaker as issues of money and power. These are denominations we're talking about after all, not charity bake sales or ice cream socials.

[Billy Cox]

I guess so too, but it is still a very mistaken way of looking at divine inspiration.

I just figure that their fundamentalist faction is more rabid (or at least more organized) than ours.

[Shea Zellweger]

I agree that it's clunky in a big way, but it's not as big a deal-breaker as issues of money and power. These are denominations we're talking about after all, not charity bake sales or ice cream socials.

For sure. Someone mentioned "swallowship" earlier as a reason the Wesleyans might not want to join with us. Although I hope we wouldn't subjugate those churches which were formerly/originally Wesleyan, I can't guarantee it. At the same time, if it were our church and the UMC talking merger, I'd be in favor, even though there's a good chance the majority of the power would rest with the former/original UMC.

[Hans Deventer]

I just figure that their fundamentalist faction is more rabid (or at least more organized) than ours.

Or they just lacked a guy like Orton Wiley (peace be upon him)

[Hal Paul]

Ok, this is a North America centric question, if the evangelical holiness denominations were to merge, what would we do with all of our colleges/universities? The Wesleyans have four colleges, and if we were to include the Free Methodists in this effort, as I recall the Nazarene resolution recommends, that's another five schools, so we would have to consider what to do with seventeen schools of higher learning (not counting bible colleges and seminaries). Several of the schools are geographically very close to each other and while constituencies from separate denominations may be able to support multiple small schools in close proximity, the schools would likely compete with each other for students, some of the schools would certainly loose out in the competition. Even if we could keep all of them within the denomination, the Nazarene educational zone system for funding would not work.

I've included a Map that shows where all the schools are. Nazarene Schools are depicted with a blue pin, Wesleyan with red and Free Methodist with green.

[Todd Erickson]

Maybe the wesleyans can just merge with the reformed nazarenes. It sounds like they're a good match.

[Shea Zellweger]

Ok, this is a North America centric question, if the evangelical holiness denominations were to merge, what would we do with all of our colleges/universities? The Wesleyans have four colleges, and if we were to include the Free Methodists in this effort, as I recall the Nazarene resolution recommends, that's another five schools, so we would have to consider what to do with seventeen schools of higher learning (not counting bible colleges and seminaries). Several of the schools are geographically very close to each other and while constituencies from separate denominations may be able to support multiple small schools in close proximity, the schools would likely compete with each other for students, some of the schools would certainly loose out in the competition. Even if we could keep all of them within the denomination, the Nazarene educational zone system for funding would not work.

I've included a Map that shows where all the schools are. Nazarene Schools are depicted with a blue pin, Wesleyan with red and Free Methodist with green.

Even if we didn't merge with other denominations, I think we might do well to pare down our colleges just a little, maybe combine a couple here and there...

[Kevin Jackson]

Here's a post by Keith Drury, an IWU professor that is relevant: What Wesleyans Believe about the Bible.

"To Wesleyans the Bible shows us what God is like, and Christ shows us how to live. Wesleyans do not argue much about statements of faith or doctrinal matters because we are especially interested in loving obedience to God that issues in holy living. Wesleyans offer their hand in fellowship to all kinds of people who love God and love others, for we believe the Bible was given to us to teach sound doctrine and to inspire sound, holy living which only the indwelling presence of His Holy Spirit can make possible. "

[Shea Zellweger]

Here's a post by Keith Drury, an IWU professor that is relevant: What Wesleyans Believe about the Bible.

"To Wesleyans the Bible shows us what God is like, and Christ shows us how to live. Wesleyans do not argue much about statements of faith or doctrinal matters because we are especially interested in loving obedience to God that issues in holy living. Wesleyans offer their hand in fellowship to all kinds of people who love God and love others, for we believe the Bible was given to us to teach sound doctrine and to inspire sound, holy living which only the indwelling presence of His Holy Spirit can make possible. "

Drury's a good guy, and his writings are helpful, but the fact of the matter is that the Wesleyan statement on the Scriptures does not reflect what Drury has just said. If he's right, great! But if that's the case, they need to reword that Article of Faith a bit.

[Billy Cox]

Even if we didn't merge with other denominations, I think we might do well to pare down our colleges just a little, maybe combine a couple here and there...

Yeah, I think that the idea of merging nearby colleges has about the same chance of going forward as combining the White Sox and the Cubs.

[Billy Cox]

Ok, this is a North America centric question, if the evangelical holiness denominations were to merge, what would we do with all of our colleges/universities? The Wesleyans have four colleges, and if we were to include the Free Methodists in this effort, as I recall the Nazarene resolution recommends, that's another five schools, so we would have to consider what to do with seventeen schools of higher learning (not counting bible colleges and seminaries). Several of the schools are geographically very close to each other and while constituencies from separate denominations may be able to support multiple small schools in close proximity, the schools would likely compete with each other for students, some of the schools would certainly loose out in the competition. Even if we could keep all of them within the denomination, the Nazarene educational zone system for funding would not work.

I've included a Map that shows where all the schools are. Nazarene Schools are depicted with a blue pin, Wesleyan with red and Free Methodist with green.

I don't think that Olivet is even in the same league as Indiana Wesleyan...so they could probably coexist and simply recruit from different strata of students.

[Ryan Scott]

The Wesleyans also don't have the same control over all their colleges as the Nazarenes do over theirs.

[Hal Paul]

The Wesleyans also don't have the same control over all their colleges as the Nazarenes do over theirs.

So in a merger, would the Nazarenes give up control of their schools, or would the new denomination assume more control over the other schools?

[Jim Chabot]

From the standpointof one sitting outside, I'm not real sure what the Wesleyans would gain from such a merger - for them It could turn out to be more of a case of 'swallowship' rather than fellowship.

Interestingly enough, I heard that term 'swallowship' used nearly 50 years ago in a Naz youth group discussion of the possibility of a three-way Naz/FM/Wesleyan merger. That was a few years before the Pilgrim/Wesleyan Methodist merger that resulted in the Wesleyan Church.

You may be on to one reason that this merger idea will probably not happen. From what I hear they aren't looking to be swallowed up. It appears that their stance may be more like a merger with the Free Methodists, then possible talks with us with real merger in mind. I'm thinking that the colleges will probably be the deal breaker, I don't see the Wesleyans willing to go along with where we are at, and I don't see us changing toward their views real easy. I will be real surprised if this actually happens, someone mentioned that they could merge with the Concerned Nazarenes, that sounds like it would be a good match. So maybe they will merge with half of us?

[Cam Pence]

You may be on to one reason that this merger idea will probably not happen. From what I hear they aren't looking to be swallowed up. It appears that their stance may be more like a merger with the Free Methodists, then possible talks with us with real merger in mind. I'm thinking that the colleges will probably be the deal breaker, I don't see the Wesleyans willing to go along with where we are at, and I don't see us changing toward their views real easy. I will be real surprised if this actually happens, someone mentioned that they could merge with the Concerned Nazarenes, that sounds like it would be a good match. So maybe they will merge with half of us?

i really dont think that if you divided the denomination into concerned and not that it would be 50/50.....not even close

[Tim Bourland]

Maybe the wesleyans can just merge with the reformed nazarenes. It sounds like they're a good match.

Hmmm. I'm a Wesleyan and if you knew me you would know that suggestion stands about as much chance as a snowball in ...... Don't lump us all into your "sounds like" assumptions, ok? ;-)

[Jim Chabot]

i really dont think that if you divided the denomination into concerned and not that it would be 50/50.....not even close

Maybe not, I admit that I don't really know. From my immediate contacts, I would peg the percentage at 75-25, but I realize that I exist in a conservative pocket of Nazarenedom. Manny presented a lecture at our church outlining his concerns with the emergent church and it's influence on Nazarenes, I did not hear from a single congregant that they disagreed with him. Now before you get the wrong idea, I think that there would be objection to the tactics and style of Tim Wirth and Grant Swank. Our congregation is not rabid, just concerned. I see the same sentiment in other churches, and in some of the older clergy. Remember this "cause for concern" comes from our Universities, where our younger clergy have been freshly influenced. What a merger would bring in terms of change is anyone's guess.

[Hans Deventer]

Manny presented a lecture at our church outlining his concerns with the emergent church and it's influence on Nazarenes, I did not hear from a single congregant that they disagreed with him.

Well, that is reason for great concern indeed. If people cannot even see how a guy is really only preaching his own convictions and is answerable to none for them, I'm tempted to become a Pharisee in my estimation of the grassroots.

[Mike Schutz]

Well, that is reason for great concern indeed. If people cannot even see how a guy is really only preaching his own convictions and is answerable to none for them, I'm tempted to become a Pharisee in my estimation of the grassroots.

I spend a considerable amount of time preaching and teaching about what it means to be a Wesleyan, and what it means to be a Nazarene. However, it is quite possible that there would be a significant segment of the folks at my church who agree with me as I preach Wesleyan holiness teachings, yet if their next pastor came and presented views closer to those of the so-called Concerned Nazarenes, that same group would agree with him/her. There is not enough theological sophistication to recognize the issues - nor to recognize the consequences. And since they are inundated with conservative, reformed and fundamentalist theology from other sources, they often don't see where we differ, even as it is a constant topic of discussion within our church.

[Jim Chabot]

Well, that is reason for great concern indeed. If people cannot even see how a guy is really only preaching his own convictions and is answerable to none for them, I'm tempted to become a Pharisee in my estimation of the grassroots.

I suppose that you could draw that conclusion if you only read Manny in print. In person, I think that you would see differently, I don't think that the two of you would agree, but I think that you would see differently. Manny has a genuine concern, and although he and I do not agree on everything, I believe that he sees a real danger and he feels compelled to warn others.

Han's I realize that you fully realize what it feels like to be unfairly attacked, I have cringed while reading some of your detractors. You have responded with much grace, I stand impressed. Please remember that Manny has been unfairly attacked as well, I can't share details, but I have first hand knowledge of a distasteful attack as recent as last week. I can understand his frustration at times, I pray for him, his burden is not light.

[Cindi Hammons]

Hal, you said "if the evangelical holiness denominations were to merge..," If you meant ALL of them, then you would need to add Bethel College, South Bend Indiana (Missionary Church), and Ohio Christian University, Circleville, Ohio (formerly Circleville Bible College, CCCU) crowding the Mid-west further.

[Cindi Hammons]

Tim, I was thinking something along those lines! My uncle used to be a professor at Marion College (later Indiana Wesleyan), and Houghton College (NY), so I've had a lot of exposure to things Wesleyan. I never thought of those colleges/the denomination as in the league with Reformed Nazarenes. However, I'm also familiar with former Pilgrim Holiness congregations in Southern Ohio where women still wear long sleeves, their hair in buns and never show their knees. Sooooo, my whole point is that there is no way to lump all the Wesleyan churches together.

[Hans Deventer]

I suppose that you could draw that conclusion if you only read Manny in print. In person, I think that you would see differently, I don't think that the two of you would agree, but I think that you would see differently.

The tree is known by its fruits, a friendly presentation does not hide the truth. (As he'll no doubt agree with.)

Manny has a genuine concern, and although he and I do not agree on everything, I believe that he sees a real danger and he feels compelled to warn others.

Oh, I'm quite certain that he sees a reel danger and feels compelled to warn others. One can be genuinely and sincerely wrong. And the wrong is where he distances himself from orthodox Christianity by having become his own rule of faith. That in itself is not so bad still, but combined with this compelling to warn others, it's lethal and destroying the body of Christ.

Please remember that Manny has been unfairly attacked as well, I can't share details, but I have first hand knowledge of a distasteful attack as recent as last week. I can understand his frustration at times, I pray for him, his burden is not light.

His burden is very heavy indeed. But it is self imposed, he could drop it in a wink. It's only him who feels he should carry it, and he is adding the martyr's complex to it when people disagree. It's almost like a mental disease, the system is watertight. "If you don't agree with my own rules, you're a heretic. If you persecute me, you've made me a martyr". Nobody short of the Lord Jesus Himself will be able to convince him he is utterly mistaken. So what can we do? I pray for him daily, as I should.

BTW, his sister in law lives here in the Netherlands and is married to a Nazarene pastor. I spoke to her not all that long ago and she told me about the attacks he is enduring. And all of that for no good reason at all, it is so deelply sad. There are no winners here, only losers. And Jesus is crying.

[Norayr Hajian]

The Wesleyan's that I have encountered here view the CotN as too liberal for them, they do believe in innerancy regarding scripture. But what they point to more often than not is that the Nazarenes are soft on sexual sin and divorce, in their opinion. My take has been that the Wesleyan's are serious about holiness, I would welcome their influence in that regard.

Wow. I like them already.

[Ryan Scott]

So in a merger, would the Nazarenes give up control of their schools, or would the new denomination assume more control over the other schools?

I'm just saying that some of the Wesleyan schools are not under any jurisdiction of the Wesleyan Church, which means they wouldn't be involved in any potential merger. I'm not sure there is any official connection between the denomination and Illinois Wesleyan, for example, maybe in the school of religion, otherwise it's basically independent.

Or maybe some schools with Wesleyan in the name were never actually part of the denomination; I don't really know enough to speak definitively.

[Tim Bourland]

The merger might be impossible because of the differences of GS leadership. The Wesleyan GSs just completed a "listening tour"...anything and everything was "on the table" to be aired. This is leading to some significant changes now being planned.

[Tim Bourland]

Tim, I was thinking something along those lines! My uncle used to be a professor at Marion College (later Indiana Wesleyan), and Houghton College (NY), so I've had a lot of exposure to things Wesleyan. I never thought of those colleges/the denomination as in the league with Reformed Nazarenes. However, I'm also familiar with former Pilgrim Holiness congregations in Southern Ohio where women still wear long sleeves, their hair in buns and never show their knees. Sooooo, my whole point is that there is no way to lump all the Wesleyan churches together.

Which is different from Nazarene "pockets" how?? :-0