Presentation Software/Hardware

[Jim Chabot]

I've been researching software/hardware options for my Camp ministry and I'm getting ready to pull the plug and actually buy some things. Does anyone here have some experience with this that could be helpful to me before I get committed to this.

I'm looking at purchasing Pro Presenter software, it seems to be the most versatile intuitive and stable product. But maybe others with experience my think otherwise?

Pro Presenter has presented me with the frightening prospect of actually buying apple products, I've never done this before and I'm a little frightened. I went to the apple store last week to see if I could wrap my head around this stuff, and somehow the first salesman that I met was the store manager and he is also the tech/worship guy at his church and they use Pro Presenter.

So far the plan is to buy a Mac Book Pro 13" laptop as the main device. I want the small size for portability reasons, the 17" model doesn't look to be airplane friendly. A couple of Ipads to go with, one for the wireless stage display and the other for remote control of a digital console. (Yamaha LS9) an Airport Express to get the wi fi network up and an Ipod for remote control of Pro Presenter along with a couple of stand adaptors and covers/cases etc.

Does this sound like a good setup for portable use. Ideas, suggestions?

[Rich Schmidt]

Wow. That sounds like a dream to me. We've used ProPresenter for the past 3-4 years, and I really like it. But we're using it on a 2008 15" MacBook Pro hooked up to a regular ol' projector. No iPad stage displays, etc. So your setup sounds pretty cool to me.

[Kevin Rector]

We have Media Shout for Mac and we've been pretty disappointed with it, although it has been getting better as they have been patching it. So I'd go with Rich's endorsement of Pro-presenter I guess.

[Zach Wingo]

The Macbook Pro line is awesome but you're paying almost double for the name and aesthetics rather than performance when compared with traditional PC's (Windows/Linux). It's just something you need to consider when choosing a notebook. The 13" is great but consider spending the extra money for the 15" if you plan on doing any video/picture editing. The 15" is more powerful, has a larger screen, but more importantly it has the matte screen option which provides more realistic color and eliminates the glare. Another option which isn't as convenient is the Mac-Mini which is really a great piece of hardware for the money and isn't over-priced. Better yet, if portability isn't such a big deal I would personally go with a 27" iMac

If you decide to go with a Apple, I would buy from this guy on ebay. His feedback is at 900+ with 100% positive. You will save at least a few hundred and because these are all new Mac's they still come with the full Apple Care warranty which can be extended. I've been watching prices and if you are willing to wait, you can easily get the 13" fully upgraded with 8GB RAM and 750GB hard drive for under $1400

[Rich Schmidt]

Just FYI, I'm going to disagree with Zach on almost every point. I'll come back later and say why. No time right now!

[Ryan Pugh]

Wow. That sounds like a dream to me. We've used ProPresenter for the past 3-4 years, and I really like it. But we're using it on a 2008 15" MacBook Pro hooked up to a regular ol' projector. No iPad stage displays, etc. So your setup sounds pretty cool to me.

This sounds like the same exact setup that we have and I am very pleased with it. Pro Presenter is a great software (granted, I haven't used much else). I would have to agree that the setup you're going for, Jim, sounds pretty sweet.

[Kevin Rector]

I switched to Mac a bit over a year ago from Windows and I have a very hard time conceptualizing ever going back. There is a LOT more than name and aesthetics. I used to make those same arguments when I used Windows too (I was a computer programmer for years before becoming a pastor so I know a bit of what I speak).

Mac is incredibly easy to use... incredibly. It just works... period. You don't have to even think about viruses or security, it just works. It's very user friendly, but if you wanted to be a power user it's built on a very robust Unix based operating system. It's got at it's core the same fundamentals as a Widow's systems so if for some reason you needed to run some Window's software there are solutions for that too (I've never needed to yet though).

[Jim Chabot]

Just FYI, I'm going to disagree with Zach on almost every point. I'll come back later and say why. No time right now!

No worries Rich! I am posting this from my new MacBook Pro. We braved another foray into apple land last night and came away with a MacBook Pro 13" an iPod Touch 8GB an Airport Express a little bit of software and an iPod Dock. I'm ordering the iPads, covers and stand adapters online because they were out of stock at the store.I

I was a Media Shout guy, we used it to script the entire service at my last church, we were using Version 3 and looking toward upgrading to take advantage of the stage display option. However during my search for a new church, I discovered Pro Presenter at a church that I candidated in. They were running it on a 27" iMac with a couple of projectors on side screens. I was amazed how quickly I learned it (we were there only two Sundays) and how versatile it is, the stage display options sold me.

At first I was going to buy the windows version, but my research revealed that this is a mac program ported over to PC and it is still buggy on a pc. I did download the demo version onto a PC, and found that it had latency problems and issues handling video clips. That plus the incredible options available in the apple world caused me to jump ship after being a PC guy since day one. (I still have a boxed copy of Lotus 123 Ver 1.)

So here I am sitting at a computer which appears very foreign to me. I am still trying to figure out how to get it and my PC's setup to file share over the network and tonights task will be moving a bunch of files over and hopefully exploring iTunes enough to be able to actually make it useful

And hey, what's with this one button mouse thing? CTRL click instead of right click? My only complaint so far!

[Jim Chabot]

We have Media Shout for Mac and we've been pretty disappointed with it, although it has been getting better as they have been patching it. So I'd go with Rich's endorsement of Pro-presenter I guess.

What sort of problems are you having with it? I'm feeling partly responsible, I remember recommending it to you when you bought it.

We had problems with Version 3 handling power point files, we solved it by saving the pastor's message as jpegs and inserting them into the script as graphics.

[Rich Schmidt]

And hey, what's with this one button mouse thing? CTRL click instead of right click? My only complaint so far!

If you're using the trackpad on your laptop, then you can set it up to "right click" by tapping or clicking with two fingers instead of one. Just go into System Preferences and set it the way you want it.

I *love* the trackpad on my MacBook Pro... and I'm using one of the older ones that still has a physical button at the bottom! Scrolling, right clicking, etc, is just so much easier than on any Windows laptop I've ever used.

[Rich Schmidt]

Sorry, I forgot to come back and respond to Zach's post. I know it's too late for Jim, but for others who might read this thread at some point...

The Macbook Pro line is awesome but you're paying almost double for the name and aesthetics rather than performance when compared with traditional PC's (Windows/Linux).

This idea has been pretty thoroughly debunked, I believe. I remember seeing/reading several articles on this a year or two ago after some Microsoft folks talked about "the Apple tax" that people pay to own Apple computers vs. Windows computers. Generally speaking, the cheaper PCs are using lower-quality components (like slower RAM, etc) than the Mac alternative.

To some extent, it's like buying a car. Sure, a Lexus costs more than a Ford... but you're getting a much nicer car.

...but more importantly it has the matte screen option which provides more realistic color and eliminates the glare.

I can't really speak to this from personal experience, because I've not owned one of the newer "glossy" screens. My MacBook Pro has the older, matte screen. The glare issue is real, but the "more realistic color" issue depends on how you're using it. If your main use is for presentations, then you want your monitor to (somewhat) match what appears on your projector/screen or flatscreens. Our church's projector is very washed-out compared to what I see on my matte screen, because our room is pretty bright, the projector is older, and our screen is huge. There's just no way to make it match what's on my laptop screen. We're getting ready to replace the projector & screen with a couple of 60-inch plasma flatscreens... which would probably match pretty closely the image on a glossy MacBook Pro screen.

If you decide to go with a Apple, I would buy from this guy on ebay. His feedback is at 900+ with 100% positive. You will save at least a few hundred and because these are all new Mac's they still come with the full Apple Care warranty which can be extended. I've been watching prices and if you are willing to wait, you can easily get the 13" fully upgraded with 8GB RAM and 750GB hard drive for under $1400

I'm not familiar with that seller, but my tendency is to buy directly from Apple when possible. Fewer hassles that way. But I guess if you're buying AppleCare (which I would recommend), it doesn't matter where you bought the machine, as long as you bought it new. I think that's how it works, anyway.

[Zach Wingo]

This idea has been pretty thoroughly debunked, I believe.

No, it hasn't which is why it's still being discussed.

Generally speaking, the cheaper PCs are using lower-quality components (like slower RAM, etc) than the Mac alternative.

Yes, this is generally true but it's far more complicated than this. I can and have built desktop PC's with very cheap parts that have easily outperformed computers 5 times their cost. Why? Not all cheap parts are bad and there are many factors that contribute to performance such as the Front-Side bus, memory bus, etc.. In short, most comparisons use cheap consumer grade notebooks instead of a comparable machine like the Dell Latitude & Precision line which are both a professional line using higher quality parts. The performance is about the same and regardless of which one does better, it's hardly noticeable. Yet, the MBP can cost anywhere from $400-$1200 more.

To some extent, it's like buying a car. Sure, a Lexus costs more than a Ford... but you're getting a much nicer car.

I don't know about this comparison but I already stated the MBP line is very nice but most of that "niceness" is in the form of aesthetics. They look nicer, they feel nicer, but when it comes down to raw performance, there isn't much difference.

I can't really speak to this from personal experience, because I've not owned one of the newer "glossy" screens. My MacBook Pro has the older, matte screen. The glare issue is real, but the "more realistic color" issue depends on how you're using it. If your main use is for presentations, then you want your monitor to (somewhat) match what appears on your projector/screen or flatscreens.

The very design of glossy screens is to "enhance" existing colors. Colors will look brighter, deeper blacks, brighter deeper reds, etc.. I was speaking specifically of video/photo editing where most people actually want the color on the screen to look as close to real-life as possible. If your projector changes that, then it's time to get a new projector. Photographers, especially professionals don't usually like glossy and if they're really picky they usually won't even use any notebooks.

I'm not familiar with that seller, but my tendency is to buy directly from Apple when possible. Fewer hassles that way. But I guess if you're buying AppleCare (which I would recommend), it doesn't matter where you bought the machine, as long as you bought it new. I think that's how it works, anyway.

[/QUOTE]

Apple Care is transferable even on used machines. Apple Care does not cover accidental damage such as drops, spills, etc., so just make sure it hasn't been damaged. He sell's only new computers and makes his money performing the upgrades himself. Upgrading the memory and hard drives yourself does not void the Apple Care warranty and thus there is not reason not to buy from him and save a few hundred. I know several people that have and had no problem. I will be buying mine in a few weeks and will probably save $600-$1000 depending on how high the auction goes.

[Rich Schmidt]

No, it hasn't which is why it's still being discussed.

Lots of things continue to be discussed after they're proven incorrect. (*cough* birthers *cough*)

Yes, this is generally true but it's far more complicated than this. I can and have built desktop PC's with very cheap parts that have easily outperformed computers 5 times their cost. Why? Not all cheap parts are bad and there are many factors that contribute to performance such as the Front-Side bus, memory bus, etc.. In short, most comparisons use cheap consumer grade notebooks instead of a comparable machine like the Dell Latitude & Precision line which are both a professional line using higher quality parts. The performance is about the same and regardless of which one does better, it's hardly noticeable. Yet, the MBP can cost anywhere from $400-$1200 more.

First, I thought we were talking about laptops for a traveling presentation setup. Very few people are building laptops themselves.

Second, a couple of years ago when the "apple tax" conversation last reached its peak, comparisons to Dell were exactly what people were doing to "debunk" the idea. Bloggers were going to Dell's website & configuring machines to match MBP specs... and the Dells were far more expensive. I haven't done it myself, though, and I don't know that any tech bloggers have done it lately, so maybe things have changed.

(BTW, you could probably build a solid-performance machine cheaper than Dell, too... so are Dells overpriced, too?)

I don't know about this comparison but I already stated the MBP line is very nice but most of that "niceness" is in the form of aesthetics. They look nicer, they feel nicer, but when it comes down to raw performance, there isn't much difference.

By "nicer car" I wasn't talking only about aesthetics. I was talking about features, component quality, build quality, and performance. And, yes, design... which goes beyond look/feel/aesthetics. And I think that in these areas the Lexus v. Ford comparison works for MacBook Pro v. Dell laptops. (My first car was a Ford, so I'm a fan. I'm not a Ford hater. )

The very design of glossy screens is to "enhance" existing colors. Colors will look brighter, deeper blacks, brighter deeper reds, etc.. I was speaking specifically of video/photo editing where most people actually want the color on the screen to look as close to real-life as possible. If your projector changes that, then it's time to get a new projector. Photographers, especially professionals don't usually like glossy and if they're really picky they usually won't even use any notebooks.

It's probably the fact that our church is moving from a projector to plasma screens that has me thinking this way. (And the fact that our projector has been very washed-out looking since we moved into our new space almost 2 years ago.) My guess is that those (glossy) plasma screens would pretty well match the image on a glossy MacBook Pro. And that's what matters: that the image on my screen as I'm preparing during the week matches the image on the big screens on Sunday morning. How closely both match real life is less important than having them match each other.

Apple Care is transferable even on used machines. Apple Care does not cover accidental damage such as drops, spills, etc., so just make sure it hasn't been damaged. He sell's only new computers and makes his money performing the upgrades himself. Upgrading the memory and hard drives yourself does not void the Apple Care warranty and thus there is not reason not to buy from him and save a few hundred. I know several people that have and had no problem. I will be buying mine in a few weeks and will probably save $600-$1000 depending on how high the auction goes.

Good to know. Thanks. And enjoy your new machine!

It would still be my preference (and I recognize that it's only that) to buy from Apple (or in a pinch Best Buy) rather than an individual on eBay. I'd rather be able to walk back into the store if something goes wrong in the first 90 days and get a replacement. I'm just guessing that there would be more hoops and questions and headaches if I'm walking in with a machine I bought on eBay that someone else opened and upgraded before selling it to me.


Overall, I'm not hardnosed on this, Zach. Sorry if I came across as abrupt in my earlier posts. I've enjoyed the MacBook Pros I've used the past few years, but they're just computers. They have their issues just like any other computer. And I'm not anti-Windows. I haven't had extensive experience with Vista or Windows 7. I just know I'm happy using Apple products (MBP, iPhone, iPod shuffle, my wife's work iPad), and I wouldn't want someone to be dissuaded from trying them because of the "Macs are more expensive than comparable Windows machines" thing... especially since my understanding is that this really isn't true in most cases.

[Zach Wingo]

First, I thought we were talking about laptops for a traveling presentation setup. Very few people are building laptops themselves.

The point was there is expensive hardware that sucks and some that is awesome, there is cheap hardware that will outperform stuff 3 times it's cost and there plenty of low quality junk. When it comes down to it, most people look at CPU Speed, amount of RAM, and hard drive speed instead of things like memory speed, FSB, and hard drive speeds all make significant difference. The price is not the issue which is why if you do your homework, you can find high performance machines that will outperform others 2 times their cost.

...How closely both match real life is less important than having them match each other.

Exactly, which is why I specifically stated if they planned on doing video and photo editing on it they should go with the anti-glare matte screen. If it's only being used for projectors than it doesn't matter.

Good to know. Thanks. And enjoy your new machine!

I've actually had 4 Mac's and I tell everyone that Apple makes the nicest computers hands down. I'm willing to cough of the money because I like them and I own Apple stock But, if you're on a budget, you can definitely get more for your money performance wise on a good PC. What I usually recommend is to get a refurbished Dell Latitude with their Complete Care insurance which includes on-site next business day service and covers accidental damage such as when I spilled coffee on my notebook.

I'd rather be able to walk back into the store if something goes wrong in the first 90 days and get a replacement. I'm just guessing that there would be more hoops and questions and headaches if I'm walking in with a machine I bought on eBay that someone else opened and upgraded before selling it to me.

Although I see why you might be hesitant, the truth is as long as you have Apple Care, it doesn't matter where you bought it or if you upgraded the components yourself because Apple states that upgrading the RAM and Hard Drive does not void the warranty. They will either repair it or replace it as long as you didn't damage it through methods such as dropping, spilling liquids on it, etc..

...especially since my understanding is that this really isn't true in most cases.

It all comes down to doing your homework. There are plenty of PC's to waste your money on, but there are also plenty of machines that will perform about the same as a Mac for significantly less cost.

[Jim Chabot]

Rich and Kevin; You guys are spot on! mac is better! It took a bit to get past the learning curve, but now after a couple of weeks I am feeling uncomfortable around PC's. Everything in the PC world seems so crude and clunky in comparison, never thought I would see the day.

I haven't gotten the Ipads yet, everything else is here and up and running, tomorrow we will do a dry run after church to be sure that everything will work according to hoyle and next Sunday we should be ready to go live.

The ipad pro presenter remote is incredible, looks like my wife will be able to control the presentation without leaving her seat!

I have put together a few weeks worth of services using piano soundtracks from Jon & Melody Twitchell combined with slides set to timers for the traditional stuff, I found some decent video tracks from iworship for the contemporary music. Hopefully we can put together a presentation that appears and sounds live, until we can pray in some musicians!

I found a couple of shortcomings with pro presenter, but I'm still happy with it.

The timeline feature cannot be assigned separately to songs for individual automation, it encompasses the entire playlist. Songs must be automated with "next slide" timers with accuracy limited to 1 second increments. Media shout allows for 1/10 second accuracy with timers.

Transitions are limited to one dissolve transition that does not work well. Not a big deal, but media shout and power point are better in this area.

Hey did I already say that the ipod remote app is incredible! I can't wait to get the stage display feature up and running!

[Jim Chabot]

Got to try everything out for real this morning and it went great. Never before have I had aids of this sort. The availability of information on the ipad stage display was incredible. Since there is a field to display notes, I put the song titles and hymn book numbers on the leading slide notes for each song.

We did one song with an iworship video. I was able to place small black text on the border of the screen where it could not be seen, while this text was sent full size to the stage display, along with introductory notes. Incredible software!

Here is the ipod remote control



And here is the ipad stage display. The left pane shows the active slide text, below it is the notes field. The right hand pane displays the next slide text so you can read ahead or just in case the slide doesn't change fast enough.