Self-Interest

[Billy Cox]

I am of the belief that whatever is best for the Kingdom of God is also best for me and you and others. Therefore, in an effort to help others I will help myself. When others help me they also help themselves. Christ came and for the joy set before him endured the cross. Even what Jesus did on the cross was in his self interest, because he reconciled the world to himself. Kind of funny how this all works huh? If we love others as ourselves, we actually love ourselves properly.

I have come to believe that the gospel of selflessness is a false gospel. I think it's in our best interest to follow Jesus, and that the rewards both present and eternal are quite attractive.

[Ryan Scott]

I have come to believe that the gospel of selflessness is a false gospel. I think it's in our best interest to follow Jesus, and that the rewards both present and eternal are quite attractive.

Still, I'm not sure if following Christ for selfish reasons counts as following Christ. I choose to live a certain way because I believe it is the way human being were designed to live. Certainly there is a benefit, but there are also less than ideal results as well.

I've been wondering lately if there is a difference between sheer selflessness (that is, in essence, self hatred) and selflessness in relation to others. I think the gospel is quite clear that we should think of others before ourselves, but are there instances where our actions effect only ourselves?

Do I decide to follow Christ because it's solely in my best interests, or also because it is the best way to be the most loving to others?

I continue to come back to Paul's statement that he'd give up his own salvation for the sake of his people. There is a stream of similar thought throughout Christian history. I have a hard time thinking of this as anything other than selflessness.

[Billy Cox]

Still, I'm not sure if following Christ for selfish reasons counts as following Christ. I choose to live a certain way because I believe it is the way human being were designed to live. Certainly there is a benefit, but there are also less than ideal results as well.

I've been wondering lately if there is a difference between sheer selflessness (that is, in essence, self hatred) and selflessness in relation to others. I think the gospel is quite clear that we should think of others before ourselves, but are there instances where our actions effect only ourselves?

I have heard it explained as the difference between self-centeredness and the centered-self. If our desires are re-oriented to parallel God's desires, then we can follow our desires to the nth degree without fear of condemnation.

Do I decide to follow Christ because it's solely in my best interests, or also because it is the best way to be the most loving to others?

I think there is a point in a Christian's life where one accepts that loving others is in one's best (self) interest.

I continue to come back to Paul's statement that he'd give up his own salvation for the sake of his people. There is a stream of similar thought throughout Christian history. I have a hard time thinking of this as anything other than selflessness.

Are you sure that's not just an illustration of a personality disorder?

[John Kennedy]

To attempt to sanitize motivations can lead to a kind of spiritual paralysis. I believe that following Christ is, ultimately, in my own best self interest. I can verbally attempt to relinquish that advantage, but i don't think it's possible. It's like a judge admonishing a jury to disregard a statement that should not have been made in the first place. It rapidly becomes the proverbial 800 lb gorilla.

The mind games one can become ensnared in while trying to approach God are infinite, at least from my point of view. Ultimately I have to fall back on the language of the BCP collect for holy communion - "Almighty God, to whom are all hearts are open, all desires known, and from whom no secrets are hid....."
and ask for the Spirit's cleansing of my thoughts (and motivations).

For me, the only way out of the 'motivations swamp' is the belief that God knows me as does no other and loves me as does no other.

I would probably be unable to echo Paul's supposed ability to relinquish his own salvation for the sake of the salvation of others. If the persuasive power of the Holy Spirit is insufficient, I have the feeling that my forfeiture would be of negligible effect. IMO only a monstrous deity would require one to even contemplate such a choice. I guess I remember too many sermons about the idea of God's unwillingness that any should perish.

Dealing with the issue of my motivations and God's detailed knowledge of them is a continuing struggle. I finally have to confess and ask for grace.

[Bob Carabbio]

Personally, I think that we have to face the simple truth that EVERYTHING we do in life, whether we're "Christian" or not, WILL BE for completely SELFISH REASONS. That's essentially the way Human Nature works, and becoming Christian DOESN'T "Remove" our "Human nature", nor does it change or "Reform" it in any way.

Christianity with the indwelling Holy Spirit ADDS a "Nature" - Jesus' Nature - which we can "Walk in" so that we don't fulfill the lusts of the flesh.

And we're called to habitually "Crucify" the "Old Nature" so that it progressively loses it's ability to direct our actions, but we will DO that for selfish reasons - crudely put, so that we can cultivate our fellowship/relationship with God - which is to our selfish interest.

Jesus said: "If you LOVE me - do what I tell you to do". That's not a "Special feeling", or "Warm Bubblies" - it's simple obedience.

SO if you DON'T know what God wants you to Do - then "abide in the calling in which ye were called" - i.e. keep on keeping on with whatever you're doing now. ONLY satan drives you to DO SOMETHING!!!!!! God communicates His desires peacably, understandably, and in his OWN time.

HE MAY lead you into something that "Tickles your fancy", or HE may lead you to be a first contact Missionary to Lower Oogabalooga.

Neither Jesus nor Paul had "Ministry plans" they depended on the Holy Spirit to direct. And when they KNEW what to do, then they did that. The Holy Spirit STILL leads and directs, and making plans WITHOUT that consciousness is dangerous.

[Billy Cox]

And we're called to habitually "Crucify" the "Old Nature" so that it progressively loses it's ability to direct our actions, but we will DO that for selfish reasons - crudely put, so that we can cultivate our fellowship/relationship with God - which is to our selfish interest.

In my experience, this is one of the most misunderstood and tragically misapplied verses in the Bible. Evangelicals especially have taken this to mean that misery is a spiritual virtue; or conversely, if it feels good, it must be from the devil.

A close second (or would it be first?) is the 'take up your cross' passage. Does it really mean that a person after regneration must still ignore the 'way that seems right' to them? If our mind has been renewed, it just seems like we shouldn't be so quick to disregard it.

[Bob Carabbio]

It's a lot simpler than that, I think. It simply means that WE (as purchased Bond-Slaves owned by Jesus) DO NOT HAVE independent self-determination.

What's missed is that JESUS - did what He saw Father doing - on an ongoing and constant basis.

We, on the other hand, tend to live on a "Show me a couple of times, and I'll take from there" basis. And WHEN we take it from there - "Religion", and "Theology" happen, and there's an inevitable descent into religious confusion.

Taking up your cross - essentially means that you NO LONGER HAVE autonomous self-determination. The Soldiers have come, and you've been forced OUT of your home, and your "Life" - which is now OVER. The one who "took up his cross" was a walking dead man - on the way to physical death, but already dead to himself for all practical purposes.

There IS a way that "Seems right to a man, but the end thereof - ain't very good.

[Billy Cox]

There IS a way that "Seems right to a man, but the end thereof - ain't very good.

...and when someone has the mind of Christ, the way that seems right to him/her IS right.

[Dale Cozby]

WE... DO NOT HAVE independent self-determination.

Taking up your cross - essentially means that you NO LONGER HAVE autonomous self-determination. The Soldiers have come, and you've been forced OUT of your home, and your "Life" - which is now OVER. The one who "took up his cross" was a walking dead man - on the way to physical death, but already dead to himself for all practical purposes.

I think the true beauty of this story is that all the way to the end, Jesus did in fact have His own will very much there but His will and the Father's will were perfectly in sync. What the Father wanted was in fact what He wanted the most as well and He carried out.
When we come close to the Lord He comes close to us. We then can have the mind of Christ and as such do what we want...which is what He wants as well. Heaven will be filled with people that want the best for others and as a result, what is best for them as well.

All of this bringing us to one with the Spirit and Jesus and hence the Father when glorified. We never lose our will but merge it into the Trinity as they are one may we be one. This is what I want with my will.