Will there be a Rapture?

[Pete Vecchi]

Just curious what NazNetters believe. I'm not talking about May 21, 2011, I'm talking about whether NezNetters believe there will be a Rapture of the saints at some point.

[Benjamin Burch]

No, I don't think there will be, and can't really find it in Scripture or Tradition.

[Billy Cox]

Just curious what NazNetters believe. I'm not talking about May 21, 2011, I'm talking about whether NezNetters believe there will be a Rapture of the saints at some point.

I answered 'unsure' because along with Ryan Scott, I detest yes/no questions. I would say 'no' because the rapture is a manufactured, speculative theology with very dubious scriptural support. I could be convinced to say 'yes' because God can do whatever the heck he pleases, including a rapture.

[G R 'Scott' Cundiff]

I say "yes" but not a "Left Behind" scenario. I believe something "rapture-like," but not secret, has to happen based on 1 Thessalonians 4:17: After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

[Diane Likens]

Ditto -- what Billy & Ben said.

[Paul DeBaufer]

If there is can we refuse to go so as to be a beacon to those who didn't make it?

[Michael Wood]

Not to sound morbid about it, but since flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom, I think our fleshly bodies are going to have to be left behind. Therefore, I voted 'no' on the rapture as it kind of implies that our earthly bodies will be sucked up into space. I think the whole rapture theology has forgotten that heaven isn't up above us or down below us or to the right or to the left. Heaven is a spiritual dimension, and that's where we'll reside for all eternity.

[Benjamin Burch]

Not to sound morbid about it, but since flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom, I think our fleshly bodies are going to have to be left behind. Therefore, I voted 'no' on the rapture as it kind of implies that our earthly bodies will be sucked up into space. I think the whole rapture theology has forgotten that heaven isn't up above us or down below us or to the right or to the left. Heaven is a spiritual dimension, and that's where we'll reside for all eternity.

uh...?

[Hans Deventer]

I voted unsure though I'd like to say yes. I expect the living to go out and welcome the Lord and then, with Him, live on the new earth.

[Randy Wise]

Just curious what NazNetters believe. I'm not talking about May 21, 2011, I'm talking about whether NezNetters believe there will be a Rapture of the saints at some point.

My understanding:
In the context of a early pull out of anyone prior to the Lords 2nd comming - NO

Jesus did teach He would send out His angels to gather the elect from the ends of the heavens (those that hold to the testimony of Jesus) Pauls teaching is consistant which such a gathering.

[Roland Hearn]

Not to sound morbid about it, but since flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom, I think our fleshly bodies are going to have to be left behind. Therefore, I voted 'no' on the rapture as it kind of implies that our earthly bodies will be sucked up into space. I think the whole rapture theology has forgotten that heaven isn't up above us or down below us or to the right or to the left. Heaven is a spiritual dimension, and that's where we'll reside for all eternity.

Actually we believe in a bodily resurrection. The idea of a spirit only eternity is not a Christian idea.

I'm not sure that the word "rapture" is very helpful because it is heavily weighted with very specific eschatology but we will one day see Jesus, one way or another, One day He will return to this globe, we will either come with Him or greet Him and then the end - MHO. Or something else might happen.

[Jon Twitchell]

Not to sound morbid about it, but since flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom, I think our fleshly bodies are going to have to be left behind. Therefore, I voted 'no' on the rapture as it kind of implies that our earthly bodies will be sucked up into space. I think the whole rapture theology has forgotten that heaven isn't up above us or down below us or to the right or to the left. Heaven is a spiritual dimension, and that's where we'll reside for all eternity.

I'm just curious how you reconcile that with:

20. We believe in the resurrection of the dead, that the bodies both of the just and of the unjust shall be raised to life and united with their spirits—“they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”

[Ryan Scott]

I answered 'unsure' because along with Ryan Scott, I detest yes/no questions. I would say 'no' because the rapture is a manufactured, speculative theology with very dubious scriptural support. I could be convinced to say 'yes' because God can do whatever the heck he pleases, including a rapture.

What he said. Although I voted no before I realized unsure was an option.

[David Graham]

I voted unsure for all the reasons given above, although I do hope for the "yes" option being available.

[Paul DeBaufer]

I voted no because I really don't see it in scripture. I think I'm right, but really I am unsure.

[Billy Cox]

Just curious what NazNetters believe. I'm not talking about May 21, 2011, I'm talking about whether NezNetters believe there will be a Rapture of the saints at some point.

The BGS has announced that, rapture or not, General Assembly 2013 will proceed as scheduled.

[Ryan Scott]

The BGS has announced that, rapture or not, General Assembly 2013 will proceed as scheduled.

At least it might help streamline the debates.

[G R 'Scott' Cundiff]

I'm going out on a limb and predict that if it happens tomorrow the Democrats will sweep in the 2012 elections.

[Benjamin Burch]

I'm going out on a limb and predict that if it happens tomorrow the Democrats will sweep in the 2012 elections.

Or the Liberals who tried to bring food and medicine to everyone will be gone and all the rotten Republicans will be left wondering why they didn't get to go!

(This coming from a guy who is not liberal, doesn't vote, and has not interest in politics. Just trying to be funny playing off of Scott's joke!!)

[Roland Hearn]

At least it might help streamline the debates.

I dare say we will get the changes to the alcohol rule that so many have been hoping for.

[David Graham]

I dare say we will get the changes to the alcohol rule that so many have been hoping for.

Hic..... I'll drink to that!

[G R 'Scott' Cundiff]

Or the Liberals who tried to bring food and medicine to everyone will be gone and all the rotten Republicans will be left wondering why they didn't get to go!

At least all the grannys will be taken and they won't be able to push them off cliffs.

[Hans Deventer]

I dare say we will get the changes to the alcohol rule that so many have been hoping for.

Ah, but the most interesting thing will be to see al those saved and sanctified Nazarenes at the heavenly banquet, "a banquet of aged wine — the best of meats and the finest of wines", not daring to refuse the angels who are pouring them the wine. "Can I fill your glass, brother Jones?" "Ehh, well, ehh, ....... sure".

[Benjamin Burch]

Ah, but the most interesting thing will be to see al those saved and sanctified Nazarenes at the heavenly banquet, "a banquet of aged wine — the best of meats and the finest of wines", not daring to refuse the angels who are pouring them the wine. "Can I fill your glass, brother Jones?" "Ehh, well, ehh, ....... sure".

This post is pure gold. I'm saving this! LOL!

[Hans Deventer]

I'm going out on a limb and predict that if it happens tomorrow the Democrats will sweep in the 2012 elections.

Might be indeed! Peter Rollins' take on the rapture: http://peterrollins.net/?p=2854

[Jim Chabot]

I voted no because I really don't see it in scripture. I think I'm right, but really I am unsure.

Same here, everything that I do see in scripture I see as having been fulfilled in the destruction of Jerusalem. I'm not comfortable with the promised return of the saints to earth in the new city either, I take that account as likely symbolic language.

Then again, Shea and I were discussing this the other day and we agreed that if there actually is a future promised rapture, we get to go with those who believe.

[Pete Vecchi]

I often don't like to vote in a poll I have started, and this is one of them. I've waited over 24 hours now to comment, because I didn't want to influence the voting at the beginning; I want to know what people thought about this. I find it very interesting that as of the moment I checked just before I began typing this, the votes are relatively evenly spread with 8 people saying there will be a rapture, 11 saying there won't, and 11 saying they are unsure.

I purposely kept the answers vague. I could have gotten into pre-trib, mid-trib, or post-trib, whether or not the "perousia" will be an event separated by a significant time from Jesus' return to earth or if the meeting in the clouds will take place as Jesus "descends to the earth, or whether the words about being "caught up" (rapio, in Greek) that Paul wrote to the Thessalonians had some other meaning.

Personally, I want there to be a pre-trib rapture. I just don't know that I can say with any definitiveness that that is what will happen.

I believe that Paul wrote what he did for a reason. I believe that our human bodies will be changed into "resurrection bodies" that will be similar to the post-Resurrection body in which Jesus appeared prior to His ascension--one in which locked doors did not hinder his entry into rooms, and where He could seemingly physically appear or disappear at will (I personally prefer to think that this is something 4th-dimensional wherein time will not exist, but I can't back this up with any strong argument).

Will those who are still living (and those who have died in Christ preceding them) be caught-up to meet Jesus on His way down, or will there be a significant amount of time (for instance 7 years, 3 1/2 years, whatever) between the being caught up and Jesus finally coming to set foot on earth to judge? I don't know. But Paul seems pretty clear about some things when he says the following in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12 (NIV, 1984 version):

Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come. Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

I don't agree with the historicist view of the book of Revelation or end-times prophecy. While there indeed may be some parallels between what happened and what was happening at the time John had his revelation and wrote it down, there are some specifics that he mentioned that don't seem to have parallels. For instance, I see no parallel in history up to that time concerning the "mark of the beast".

In any case, without getting into more explanation, I tend to believe that there will be a time when those who belong to Jesus will be caught up to meet Him in the air. I just can't say at what point in future history it will happen. And truth be told, that's the way I think it's supposed to be!

[Rene Tetro]

One thing I am sure of. It won't be May 21, 2011 at 6:00PM.

[Shea Zellweger]

One thing I am sure of. It won't be May 21, 2011 at 6:00PM.

well, it's 6:00, and I'm still here... is anyone else?


I don't see the scriptural evidence for a Raputre, except for a reading of the Olivet Discourse that I don't think is accurate. However, I do believe Jesus will return, the dead will be raised, and humans will be judged. I believe that we will receive glorified bodies as Jesus' body was, and for those who are still alive at the time of Christ's return, this probably means some kind of transition, and I'm willing to call that a "rapture."

[Herb Newell]

I don't know, but...

Peace be to you, and grace from Him Who freed us from our sin,
Who loved us all, and shed His blood That we might saved be.
Sing Holy, Holy to the Lord, The Lord, Almighty God,
Who was, and is, and is to come; Sing Holy, Holy Lord!

Rejoice in Heaven, all ye that dwell therein; Rejoice on earth, ye saints below.
For Christ is coming, is coming soon; For Christ is coming soon!
E'en so, Lord Jesus, quickly come, And night shall be no more.
They need no light, nor lamp, nor sun, For Christ will be their All.

I sing -- hopefully...

[Hans Deventer]

This post is pure gold. I'm saving this! LOL!

Ah, but you're partial to the angel's job!

[Michael Coblentz]

It's fun to see billboards like this after seeing the Rapture billboards everywhere the past few weeks.

[Marsha Lynn]

I don't see the scriptural evidence for a Rapture, except for a reading of the Olivet Discourse that I don't think is accurate. However, I do believe Jesus will return, the dead will be raised, and humans will be judged. I believe that we will receive glorified bodies as Jesus' body was, and for those who are still alive at the time of Christ's return, this probably means some kind of transition, and I'm willing to call that a "rapture."

I agree. I believe that Jesus will return in the same way he went into heaven. (Acts 1:11) I do NOT believe that there will be anything remotely secret about that return, but that "every eye will see him" (Revelation 1:7). Nor do I believe that mortal life will continue on earth after Christians are "raptured." Peter tells us that heaven and earth will be destroyed on "the day of Lord" (and be replaced by a new heaven and a new earth). I see no line of separation in scripture between Christ's coming and Peter's "day of the Lord."

So if your question is concerning whether Christ will return, my answer is a definite "yes." If it is about a secret "Rapture," my answer is a definite no. And if it concerns life going on here on this earth after Christ's return, I might turn red in the face and jump up and down in trying to convey the depth of my conviction that it ain't gonna happen! For most other aspects of the 2nd Coming, I would have to choose "I don't have a clue."

[Wilson Deaton]

Interesting/Intriguing Phenomonom: The "Yes" and the "No" are close in the POLL but the "No" are waaaay out front in the comments. I wonder why "No" people are more likely to comment here...

Wilson

[Pete Vecchi]

Interesting/Intriguing Phenomonom: The "Yes" and the "No" are close in the POLL but the "No" are waaaay out front in the comments. I wonder why "No" people are more likely to comment here...

Wilson

I wonder if it's considered to be more "scholarly" to not believe that there will be a rapture of the saints, and therefore more people who answer yes just do so "quietly" while those who say "no" are more likely apt to opine on the "why" of their positions.

I have no idea if that's the case or not, but that certainly is an interesting (and accurate) observation you made, Wilson!

[Marsha Lynn]

I wonder if it's considered to be more "scholarly" to not believe that there will be a rapture of the saints, and therefore more people who answer yes just do so "quietly" while those who say "no" are more likely apt to opine on the "why" of their positions.

I have no idea if that's the case or not, but that certainly is an interesting (and accurate) observation you made, Wilson!

You may be right. There are also the substantial percentage of "unsure" responses to consider. They may be like me in rejecting the popular "secret rapture"/"left behind" scenario while not rejecting the idea of Jesus' return. As annoying as it is to leave a poll unanswered and have to take an extra step to see the latest results, I chose that option for this one. I'm not unsure about my beliefs concerning the Rapture, but I'm unsure as to how "Rapture" is defined for the poll. Thus, I am unable to weigh in with an answer.

[Shea Zellweger]

I wonder if it's considered to be more "scholarly" to not believe that there will be a rapture of the saints, and therefore more people who answer yes just do so "quietly" while those who say "no" are more likely apt to opine on the "why" of their positions.

I have no idea if that's the case or not, but that certainly is an interesting (and accurate) observation you made, Wilson!

I'll bet a lot of the people who posted on this thread said "unsure." Don't know ratios, but I wouldn't be surprised if the numbers are pretty close. It could be that if you believe in a rapture, there's really not much to explain, and "yes" isn't 5 characters long (the minimum post length). However, the no/unsure folks seem to have a lot of different reasons for believing what they believe (or don't believe).

[Jon Twitchell]

As I've watched facebook/naznet/forum discussions, I'm surprised (I probably shouldn't be), that so many people wed the concepts of rapture and second coming, as though they're inseparable. For many, a rapture is so much the default option that they don't realize there are other options... and even when they read our AoF on the Second Coming, they simply read "rapture," and are surprised to learn that there are Nazarenes (or even other Christians) who don't believe in the rapture.

[Paul DeBaufer]

You may be right. There are also the substantial percentage of "unsure" responses to consider. They may be like me in rejecting the popular "secret rapture"/"left behind" scenario while not rejecting the idea of Jesus' return. As annoying as it is to leave a poll unanswered and have to take an extra step to see the latest results, I chose that option for this one. I'm not unsure about my beliefs concerning the Rapture, but I'm unsure as to how "Rapture" is defined for the poll. Thus, I am unable to weigh in with an answer.

I think you'd be safe going with the popular definition of the secret rapture, i.e. left behind. I mean that's what immediately comes to my mind when I hear the word and think that that's the way it is used most often.

[Craig Laughlin]

As I've watched facebook/naznet/forum discussions, I'm surprised (I probably shouldn't be), that so many people wed the concepts of rapture and second coming, as though they're inseparable. For many, a rapture is so much the default option that they don't realize there are other options... and even when they read our AoF on the Second Coming, they simply read "rapture," and are surprised to learn that there are Nazarenes (or even other Christians) who don't believe in the rapture.

This has been a surprise to me as well. The rapture for me has always been associated with end times but only one part of Christ's return. The idea that if one rejects the rapture one is rejecting the return of Christ seems completely foreign. I guess I haven't talked much about this sort of thing since my teenage years in the 70's but we used to have all kinds of conversations about how Christ would return but not if he would return.

Can't help but wonder if this isn't another example of the great reductionism that is happening in evangelical Christianity in which an increasingly narrow set of affirmations are considered orthodox.