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Thread: A True Church

  1. #1
    Senior Member Wilson Deaton's Avatar

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    A True Church

    A couple of days ago, a guy gave my son a religious handout. The content made me wonder what group it was from. I checked it out and discovered it was being generated by a single congregation of about 50 people.

    The web site proved to be quite "interesting."

    Asked if they believed they were the only true church they said:
    "We do not know. There was a church in Murfreesboro, TN, but that has since dissolved. Other than that, we have not yet, as of this date, found another church that is in the truth (1 John 4:6), and we have been to many."
    Among other things, they believe "the Bible (the Scriptures) and God are one and the same." They point out that they don't mean the paper and ink but rather the Scripture itself is God. They know this is true because they take everything literally and John 1:1 says that the Word is God. The Word, of course, is the Scripture.

    Happily they provide a list of false teachers and false ministries (and even some false books). The list includes:
    • John McArthur
    • Chuck Swindoll
    • James Dobson
    • Billy Graham
    • Catholics
    • Calvinists
    • Arminians
    • Bunyan's, The Pilgrim's Progress
    • Charles Stanley
    • Rick Warren
    • Fred Phelps
    • Early Church Fathers
    • Tony Campolo
    • AA
    • Promise Keepers
    Not on the list: Naznet! Whew...

    Wilson
    "But by the grace of God I am what I am." (1 Cor. 15:10)
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  2. #2
    Senior Member Paul DeBaufer's Avatar

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    Re: A True Church

    Is this the church from just outside Bakersfield, CA?

    Edited to add: Just went to the website and it seems that this church is now in OK and not CA, but same guy, Darwin Fish (who claims that that is his real given name.)
    You can be right or you can be in relationship

  3. #3
    Senior Member Wilson Deaton's Avatar

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    Re: A True Church

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul DeBaufer View Post
    Is this the church from just outside Bakersfield, CA?
    No. Moodys, Oklahoma.

    Wilson
    "But by the grace of God I am what I am." (1 Cor. 15:10)

  4. #4
    Site Coordinator Hans Deventer's Avatar

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    Re: A True Church

    No NazNet? Gracious, if we don't take care, not even the Concerned Nazarenes will list us!
    "No scripture can mean that God is not love, or that his mercy is not over all his works" (John Wesley - Free Grace, 26)

  5. #5
    Senior Member David Pettigrew's Avatar

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    Re: A True Church

    Wilson, can you post the link?

  6. #6
    Senior Member Paul DeBaufer's Avatar

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    Re: A True Church

    I'm not Wilson, but have the site open in another tab so here's the link: http://www.atruechurch.info/home.html
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    Host Book, Movie & CE forums Ryan Scott's Avatar

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    Re: A True Church

    My favorite quote thus far: "We believe there are fire breathing dragons."
    ...just my $.02.
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    Laughing Gina Stevenson, David Pettigrew, Bob Hunter, Ryan Pugh - thanks for this funny post

  8. #8
    Senior Member Ryan Pugh's Avatar

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    Re: A True Church

    How does this work...

    "We believe Jesus causes and controls everything, even the free will of man."
    Most good things have been said far too many times and just need to be lived. - Shane Claiborne
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    Senior Member David Pettigrew's Avatar

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    Re: A True Church

    Is Darwin Fish a real name? Really??? Come on, now.

    Edited to add: Oh, never mind.

  10. #10
    Site Coordinator Hans Deventer's Avatar

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    Re: A True Church

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Pugh View Post
    How does this work...

    "We believe Jesus causes and controls everything, even the free will of man."
    Simple. Revelation goes above logic............

    However, the only revelation we have has been communicated to us in human words and concepts, because, as Jesus said, "John 3:12 - I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?". To communicate, things must make sense. Therefore, if our conclusions don't make sense, we're not describing what is revealed.
    "No scripture can mean that God is not love, or that his mercy is not over all his works" (John Wesley - Free Grace, 26)
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  11. #11
    Senior Member Billy Cox's Avatar

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    Re: A True Church

    Quote Originally Posted by Wilson Deaton View Post
    Happily they provide a list of false teachers and false ministries (and even some false books). The list includes:

    ..

    Not on the list: Naznet! Whew...
    NazNet does not solicit donations and is neither owned nor operated by a member of the clergy, so it cannot therefore be a church.
    Laughing David Graham - thanks for this funny post

  12. #12
    Senior Member David Morris's Avatar

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    Re: A True Church

    I'm pretty sure my sister and I saw Darwin Fish outside of the 2001 (or 2002?) Billy Graham Crusade in Cincinnati. If it isn't him, it is awfully close!

    Click image for larger version

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  13. #13
    Senior Member Wilson Deaton's Avatar

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    Re: A True Church

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Cox View Post
    NazNet does not solicit donations and is neither owned nor operated by a member of the clergy, so it cannot therefore be a church.
    Also, I've noticed an occasional disagreement on Naznet; that would never happen if it were a church.

    Wilson
    "But by the grace of God I am what I am." (1 Cor. 15:10)

  14. #14
    Senior Member David Pettigrew's Avatar

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    Re: A True Church

    I would refer to my facebook status yesterday:

    "People are crazier than anybody."

    I must be one of them homespun philosophers.
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    Host Theology Forum Mike Schutz's Avatar

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    Re: A True Church

    Rats - how come I never make one of these lists?

    I need to work harder.
    "Fully embracing the Gospel, fully engaging the world"
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    Site Manager G R 'Scott' Cundiff's Avatar

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    Re: A True Church

    I feel kind of sorry for them. Heaven will be so lonely - 50 people living in a city that's a 1500 mile cube. If one of them makes the wrong turn down a street of gold they'll not see another person for a thousand years or so.

  17. #17
    Host Theology Forum Mike Schutz's Avatar

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    Re: A True Church

    God is faced with a conundrum -

    For Billy Graham, it will be heaven to see Darwin Fish there.

    For Darwin Fish, it will be hell to see Billy Graham there.

    I think God will figure it out.
    "Fully embracing the Gospel, fully engaging the world"
    Laughing Dennis M. Scott, David Graham, Mark Metcalfe - thanks for this funny post

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    Senior Member Paul DeBaufer's Avatar

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    Re: A True Church

    I came across this group oh 5 years ago, forgot about them. I think it sad that there are those who think that they are the only ones getting into the Kingdom, which probably excludes them, but what do I know.
    You can be right or you can be in relationship

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    Senior Member Jim Chabot's Avatar

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    Re: A True Church

    Looks like they are ok after all! They have hermeneutics!

    http://www.atruechurch.info/hermeneutics.html
    -Jim

    To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.

    Garrison Keillor

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    Host Sports forum Shea Zellweger's Avatar

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    Re: A True Church

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul DeBaufer View Post
    Darwin Fish (who claims that that is his real given name.)
    Saves money on selling logos
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  21. #21
    Senior Member George Wallace's Avatar

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    Re: A True Church

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Pugh View Post
    How does this work...

    "We believe Jesus causes and controls everything, even the free will of man."
    From: A DECLARATION OF THE SENTIMENTS OF ARMINIUS
    II. THE PROVIDENCE OF GOD

    I consider Divine Providence to be "that solicitous, continued, and universally present inspection and oversight of God, according to which he exercises a general care over the whole world, but evinces a particular concern for all his [intelligent] creatures without any exception, with the design of preserving and governing them in their own essence, qualities, actions, and passions, in a manner that is at once worthy of himself and suitable to them, to the praise of his name and the salvation of believers. In this definition of Divine Providence, I by no means deprive it of any particle of those properties which agree with it or belong to it; but I declare that it preserves, regulates, governs and directs all things and that nothing in the world happens fortuitously or by chance. Beside this, I place in subjection to Divine Providence both the free-will and even the actions of a rational creature, so that nothing can be done without the will of God, not even any of those things which are done in opposition to it; only we must observe a distinction between good actions and evil ones, by saying, that "God both wills and performs good acts," but that "He only freely permits those which are evil." Still farther than this, I very readily grant, that even all actions whatever, concerning evil, that can possibly be devised or invented, may be attributed to Divine Providence Employing solely one caution, "not to conclude from this concession that God is the cause of sin."
    Blessings
    George

    "Preach the gospel; if necessary use words" is like saying "feed the poor and; if necessary use food."

  22. #22
    Host Book, Movie & CE forums Ryan Scott's Avatar

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    Re: A True Church

    George, you'll appreciate Darwin's words on Christmas, as well, I suspect. (Spoiler: he's against it.)
    ...just my $.02.

  23. #23
    Senior Member George Wallace's Avatar

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    Re: A True Church

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Scott View Post
    George, you'll appreciate Darwin's words on Christmas, as well, I suspect. (Spoiler: he's against it.)
    Nah, Darwin is a nut-job!

    His quote pertaining to Providence was about all I could find agreeable on his site.

    I already said my wife won't let me stop celebrating Christmas...! If Momma ain't happy...Ain't nobody happy! She was out of town for Easter so at least I got to NOT celebrate that this year

    Blessings
    George

    "Preach the gospel; if necessary use words" is like saying "feed the poor and; if necessary use food."
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  24. #24
    Host Fun & Prayer forums Gina Stevenson's Avatar

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    Re: A True Church

    NOT celebrates easter/rez Sunday, huh? Don't think I've seen this before -- but then when posts get rather long sometimes, I don't always see them in their entirety. Not sure what this is about, since you're in the "reformed" category, right? Where we live, where there are a lot of this sort of folks/churches, they do, so ... ???
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  25. #25
    Senior Member George Wallace's Avatar

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    Re: A True Church

    Quote Originally Posted by Gina Stevenson View Post
    NOT celebrates easter/rez Sunday, huh? Don't think I've seen this before -- but then when posts get rather long sometimes, I don't always see them in their entirety. Not sure what this is about, since you're in the "reformed" category, right? Where we live, where there are a lot of this sort of folks/churches, they do, so ... ???
    Gina,
    For the "reformed" it goes back to the Regulative Principle of Worship,that is briefly- whatever is not commanded or warranted in Scripture is forbidden in worship. Plus, they/we believe that a significant part of why we gather as the as the assembled church on the Lord's Day (Sunday) is to celebrate Christ's Resurrection. So,the question then is why would anyone single out a specific Lord's Day for celebrating the Resurrection when each and every one is in part an observance of the Resurrection? Other things also come into play like, John 4:24 "worship in Spirit and in Truth" is Easter 'truly' the anniversary of Christ's Resurection? No.

    In the Eastern Church it is still a feast that changes days or more accurately changes differently than in the West. (Google Quartodecimanism or Easter controversy)

    Also saying "reformed" is an overstatement. Really the history of not celebrating Easter or Christmas was almost only through Geneva and Scotland. Most of the rest of the Continental Reformed after the reformation-smoke had cleared settled on celebrating what are known as the Five Evangelical Feasts which are Christmas, Good Friday, Easter, Ascension, and Pentecost. The Churches in Bern, Strasbourg, and Zurich celebrated these while as I stated traditionally, Calvin's Geneva did not nor did the Presbyterians in Scotland.

    Today, well it is a mixed bag when it comes to Presbyterians. A good rule of thumb would be the larger the Denomination the more likely to celebrate these; the smaller the denomination the less likely. In ours it is really a liberty of conscience issue. If people want to celebrate C & E they can and do but we have no special worship services, no cantatas, no vigils ect. Just a regular worship service on the Lord's Day. People that want to celebrate C & E can usually do this at home or in groups. This is really more freeing than restricting, at least from the Regulative Worship perspective; adding anything not commanded or warranted by Scripture to Corporate worship would be to inflict injury on the conscience of other brothers and sisters. Basically, forcing them to do things that go against their conscience if they want to be part of Corporate worship.

    The only Presbyterian Church that I am aware of that makes the NOT celebration of C & E binding is the Free Presbyterian Church of Scotland. Check out their What We Believe page. Of course these folks aren't to be confused with the Free Presbyterian Church (Ulster) or the Free Church of Scotland or the Free Church of Scotland (continuing).

    Anyway, celebrating Easter and Christmas is a relatively 'new' thing for most Presbyterians. Only becoming common in the last 150 years or so.

    Probably, more than you wanted to know

    Blessings
    George

    "Preach the gospel; if necessary use words" is like saying "feed the poor and; if necessary use food."

  26. #26
    Host Theology Forum David Graham's Avatar

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    Re: A True Church

    George, I have a Presbyterian background on my father's side, and no one had any problem celebrating Christmas or Easter, or drinking alcohol in moderation for that matter...... but then again 150 years goes back a lot further than my parents and grand parents, who were mostly nominal anyway except for my grandmother who was quite devout.

    It's interesting, I met a Scot the other day at a interdenominational minister's gathering, who was the Minister at a Presbyterian Church south of Toowoomba. His take on the Free Church of Scotland was that they were a lot more conservative than the Presbyterian Church in Australia, and even of our generally "conservative" north. I said to him (off the cuff) "so arrr you must be more like the Church of Scotland then", he replied: "Ahhh, not so..... you are!" i.e The UCA.

    Apparently the CoS is a broad church like ourselves....... but probably a bit more Reformed.

    Interesting observation.
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  27. #27
    Host Fun & Prayer forums Gina Stevenson's Avatar

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    Re: A True Church

    Thanks, George. Maybe, then, some of it was my friends celebrating, and not necessarily their church? Oh, well.
    Life beats down and crushes the soul and art reminds you that you have one.
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    It takes a great deal of maturity to accept that trying to eliminate all risk eliminates life.
    ~ Susan Lapin ~

  28. #28
    Host Theology Forum David Graham's Avatar

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    Re: A True Church

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Schutz View Post
    Rats - how come I never make one of these lists?

    I need to work harder.
    Any idea as to how a person might make their list???

    Apart from "Fred" it seems to be a fairly reputable field.

  29. #29
    Senior Member Rich Schmidt's Avatar

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    Re: A True Church

    Quote Originally Posted by David Graham View Post
    Any idea as to how a person might make their list???

    Apart from "Fred" it seems to be a fairly reputable field.
    I think that's the point. You get on the list by being reputable / having a reputation / being famous.
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  30. #30
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    Re: A True Church

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Chabot View Post
    Looks like they are ok after all! They have hermeneutics!

    http://www.atruechurch.info/hermeneutics.html
    Has Herman ever been baptized?

  31. #31
    Host Fun & Prayer forums Gina Stevenson's Avatar

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    Re: A True Church

    Quote Originally Posted by John Kennedy View Post
    Has Herman ever been baptized?
    John, if he were, then he might be accused of being wet behind the ears.
    Life beats down and crushes the soul and art reminds you that you have one.
    ~ Stella Adler ~

    ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
    It takes a great deal of maturity to accept that trying to eliminate all risk eliminates life.
    ~ Susan Lapin ~
    Laughing David Graham - thanks for this funny post

  32. #32
    Senior Member Glenda Harvey's Avatar

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    Re: A True Church

    Quote Originally Posted by David Morris View Post
    I'm pretty sure my sister and I saw Darwin Fish outside of the 2001 (or 2002?) Billy Graham Crusade in Cincinnati. If it isn't him, it is awfully close!

    Attachment 2420
    This looks like the same group that protests outside the Harvest Crusade in Anaheim. I wondered what group they were with.

  33. #33
    Host Fun & Prayer forums Gina Stevenson's Avatar

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    Re: A True Church

    Quote Originally Posted by Glenda Harvey View Post
    This looks like the same group that protests outside the Harvest Crusade in Anaheim. I wondered what group they were with.
    [nostalgia note] 'Remember those ... Greg Laurie, and various musicians over the years. Crystal Lewis is one who's really good [nice mellow voice] who was there.
    Life beats down and crushes the soul and art reminds you that you have one.
    ~ Stella Adler ~

    ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
    It takes a great deal of maturity to accept that trying to eliminate all risk eliminates life.
    ~ Susan Lapin ~

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