Talk of moving Astros to the American League

[G R 'Scott' Cundiff]

I've been hearing about this the past few days. Right now a NL Central team has a 1 in 6 chance of winning their division. At the same time, an AL West team has a 1 in 4 chance of winning their division. There's some talk of moving the Astros to the AL West to even things out.

This though, would create two 15 team leagues which means every night there would have to be an interleague game.

Also, as a local fan, I wouldn't like my team playing so many west coast games. That puts them on too late to watch here.

Anybody else have any thoughts about this?

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=6659129

[Ryan Scott]

I think it could end up being much more complicated. It seems like there's more at play than just leveling the number of teams. I've heard talk that they're trying to pump up the rivalry between the Astros and Rangers - which signals that they might be rethinking interleague play.

[G R 'Scott' Cundiff]

I think it could end up being much more complicated. It seems like there's more at play than just leveling the number of teams. I've heard talk that they're trying to pump up the rivalry between the Astros and Rangers - which signals that they might be rethinking interleague play.

I think that would be an after effect, not the purpose. Actually, a lot of Astros fans are also Ranger fans aside from head to head matchups.

Another approach is to do away with divisions completely. The top 4 teams from each league going to post season, or something like that.

[David Lyons]

I think they should just move Milwaukee back to the American League.

If not that, then maybe a starting from scratch approach with , oh, let's say four teams in four divisions in each conference. Out of the major professional sports, I think the NFL has the best approach, particularly when it comes to revenue sharing so that all teams can be competitive, at least every couple of years or so. (I am a Pirates fan, so I am just getting readjusted to the idea that it is possible to compete against those rich teams)

[Shea Zellweger]

I think they should just move Milwaukee back to the American League.

If not that, then maybe a starting from scratch approach with , oh, let's say four teams in four divisions in each conference. Out of the major professional sports, I think the NFL has the best approach, particularly when it comes to revenue sharing so that all teams can be competitive, at least every couple of years or so. (I am a Pirates fan, so I am just getting readjusted to the idea that it is possible to compete against those rich teams)

In order to take that approach, the MLB would have to add 2 more teams.

I responded to this thread earlier, but it apparently didn't post.
I think this transition is kind of silly. It would make more sense to expand the league by 2 teams, re-align divisions... and maybe have earlier start times and larger strike zones, while we're at it

[Ryan Scott]

I assume it's the Astros that might move because they're currently up for sale and MLB could just include the move in the stipulations for purchase.

[G R 'Scott' Cundiff]

I assume it's the Astros that might move because they're currently up for sale and MLB could just include the move in the stipulations for purchase.

I don't think that has much to do with it. It's that Houston is the most western team in the larger NL Central and the AL West is the one with only 4 teams. If a team is to be moved from the NL Central to the AL West it makes sense that it be the most western team.

[Ryan Scott]

They should just move the Brewers back - that would make sense.

[David Lyons]

In order to take that approach, the MLB would have to add 2 more teams.

I responded to this thread earlier, but it apparently didn't post.
I think this transition is kind of silly. It would make more sense to expand the league by 2 teams, re-align divisions... and maybe have earlier start times and larger strike zones, while we're at it

The league is so watered down now, what's 2 more teams?

Earlier start times? What... do you want kids to start getting interested in baseball again? Particularly for the World Series, someone in MLB needs to get a brain.

strike zones? .... now you are pushing the hot button .... though not in baseball. Last year, I coached an 11-12 year old girls softball team. I had some girls that had been coached extremely well in the past and had a great eye for the strike zone in the rule book. Unfortunately, ALL the umpires called a humungous strike zone that basically went from the chin to the shin and the elbows to the end of the bat. The only good thing was that my daughter and another player listened to my advice and still walked a lot, leading the team in on-base percentage.

[Gina Stevenson]

That does sound like a rather large strike zone, David!

[G R 'Scott' Cundiff]

I thought this issue was done, but Houston media is reporting that the hold up of the sale of the Astros to the new owner is that he won't agree to the move. I'm a NL guy because of the designated hitter rule but a bigger deal to me would be that late starts of such a large number of away games.

[Scott Sherwood]

I think you misunderstood. It's not the American League they're considering. It's the American Association, since they already have the right roster.

[G R 'Scott' Cundiff]

Apparently the move of the Astros to the American League is as good as done. The new owner is reported to have agreed to the move beginning in 2013 and as a result is getting between a 50 and 80 million rebate.

I don't understand why he's getting the rebate. I've always been a fan of NL teams, but is the average AL automatically worth 80 million dollars less than a National League team?

As I understand it, American league parks are, in general smaller than National League parks and emphasize power hitting over pitching. Also, AL umpires have a tighter strike zone (favoring hitters) and are quite stingy in calling a strike three on a power hitter.

Then, coaching is easier in the AL than in the NL - if a pitcher is doing a good job in a tight game, leave in him, no 6th or 7th inning decisions concerning pitch hitting for him.

So, less team value, less emphasis on managing and pitching, more hits, and more home runs in general.

At least that's my take on the differences - what's yours?

[Ryan Scott]

I don't think it's as much about the differences as it is tough negotiating from the owner.

There may be some issues in competing with the Rangers now in the AL - media stuff and fan base. Baseball fans are generally either AL fans or NL fans; there may be a real monetary cost in switching.

[Shea Zellweger]

Some of the deepest parks are in the AL (5 of the 10 deepest CF are in the AL, and 6 of #s 11-20), and from 1998-2007, the NL hit more HR every single year. Top-tier pitching currently looks a little better in the NL, but a lot of the guys who make it look that way were playing for AL teams until recently. Not sure about the umpires... As for coaching, I'd say it requires a different strategy, but I certainly don't think it's easier.

As to value, the average AL team in 2009 was worth more, but there's a much greater disparity between the more valuable clubs and the less valuable ones in the AL. The Yankees were worth something like 80% more than the Red Sox, and the Red Sox about 60% more than the Angels, whereas the Mets had about a 25% edge on the Dodgers, who were only up 3% on the Cubs. Likewise, the Yankees were worth about 5x what the Royals (least valuable AL franchise) were, while the Mets only had a 3x advantage on the Marlins. (source) Still, those numbers indicate that this move would make the Astros the 5th most valuable AL team, and they will likely see increased revenue for the first few years as people will take advantage of the opportunity to see them play the more historic AL franchises.

I'm guessing the $50-80 Million concession is mostly just good bargaining on the owner's part. Some reasons that could have been used would be things like needing to restructure the roster, marketing the change to the fan base/drawing in new fans, and maybe to compensate for the potential that they'll have a few rough seasons while getting used to their new opponents.

[Mike Schutz]

Also, AL umpires have a tighter strike zone (favoring hitters) and are quite stingy in calling a strike three on a power hitter.

Just a minor point - there are no longer separate umpires for each league.

However, when there were separate umpiring crew for the two leagues:
My wife and I went to a Baltimore Orioles baseball game with my parents. After a few innings, my wife - looking through the binoculars - commented that the third base ump has the same first name as my dad. She then excitedly stated that all of the umpires have that same name. When we said that we had no idea what she was talking about, she responded that the umps all have their first name on their caps, and they were all named AL.

[G R 'Scott' Cundiff]

they will likely see increased revenue for the first few years as people will take advantage of the opportunity to see them play the more historic AL franchises.

I know that when the Yankees or Red Sox come to town that attendance picks up...although prior to the last two years, most every game was a sell out anyway.

On the other hand, the Astros will trade regular visits from such historic clubs as the Cardinals, Cubs, and Brewers for clubs the average Houstonian never thinks about: Mariners, Angels, and A's.

I'm guessing the $50-80 Million concession is mostly just good bargaining on the owner's part. Some reasons that could have been used would be things like needing to restructure the roster, marketing the change to the fan base/drawing in new fans, and maybe to compensate for the potential that they'll have a few rough seasons while getting used to their new opponents.

Oh no! Are you suggesting that the Astros are going to have some bad years! Shock!

[Shea Zellweger]

On the other hand, the Astros will trade regular visits from such historic clubs as the Cardinals, Cubs, and Brewers for clubs the average Houstonian never thinks about: Mariners, Angels, and A's.

I'm guessing one of those NL teams will become the Astro's new inerleague "rival" (although I'm not sure which, since each of them has a clear geographical rival). As for the Mariners, Angels, and A's, it's a tossup. You could see an uptick because of the novelty, or a downturn because of the unfamiliarity. You hope the existing fanbase is willing to embrace the new rivalries, and maybe some of the folks in the area who until very recently had to resort to cheering for the AL West come playoff time will get some fun in seeing them.

[Doug Ward]

Apparently the move of the Astros to the American League is as good as done. The new owner is reported to have agreed to the move beginning in 2013 and as a result is getting between a 50 and 80 million rebate.

I don't understand why he's getting the rebate. I've always been a fan of NL teams, but is the average AL automatically worth 80 million dollars less than a National League team?

As I understand it, American league parks are, in general smaller than National League parks and emphasize power hitting over pitching. Also, AL umpires have a tighter strike zone (favoring hitters) and are quite stingy in calling a strike three on a power hitter.

Then, coaching is easier in the AL than in the NL - if a pitcher is doing a good job in a tight game, leave in him, no 6th or 7th inning decisions concerning pitch hitting for him.

So, less team value, less emphasis on managing and pitching, more hits, and more home runs in general.

At least that's my take on the differences - what's yours?

Oh, I'm sorry - I misread your post. After last year, I thought you telling us they are moving the Astros to the American Legion League. Sorry

[G R 'Scott' Cundiff]

Oh, I'm sorry - I misread your post. After last year, I thought you telling us they are moving the Astros to the American Legion League. Sorry

Speaking as a nearly lifetime National League fan, moving the American League may not be much different than moving to the American Association.

[Shea Zellweger]

so now that it's official, I guess interleague is completely here to stay... with 15 teams in each league, there will either always have to be one team taking 2-3 consecutive days off, or there will always be an interleague series happening. Maybe they'll finally work it out so there's some kind of logical rotation to IL, rather than the whole "geographic/historic rivalries."

[G R 'Scott' Cundiff]

This is really fun -- apparently, the lease of Minute Maid park is to the "franchise" which is defined as a "National League baseball team." Some Houston fans are urging the Houston Sports Authority to tell MLB that the ballpark is leased to a NL team, not a AL team. I don't think it has a chance in the world of flying, but it is interesting.

[Kevin Rector]

This is all very stupid. They should just put the Brewers back into the AL where they belong.

[Scott Moseley]

espn article: http://espn.go.com/dallas/mlb/story/...e-approved-mlb As a longtime Astros fan ..its kind of sad for sentimental reasons but way back when houston was realigned to the NL Central I was ticked off too just because I had gotten use to our rivals in the Dodgers and Padres etc.. Also I had a bias against the AL for all the reasons NL partisans often quote. BUT as I moved to the MetroPlex and started rooting for the rangers way back when they were really bad with Pudge Rodriguez and AROd seeing them through today's really fun team to watch... I have grown to favor AL style play. Now it irks me a bit to see a tight inning ruined by an Ace facing a .102 hitting pitcher. I digress. Astro Fans will "get over it" and will enjoy playing the Rangers and competing in the standing with them on a regular baisis. Rangers will be very glad to have an in state opponent for TV and travel considerations as well. Now I wonder who will be the Rangers and Astors interleague "rival" . Astros - Cards Rangers - ? Should be fun... Change is hard but it will be good for baseball IMO. and Yes Ithink the New owner Crane had outstanding negotiating abilities to get a 70million discount.

[G R 'Scott' Cundiff]

Astros fans - start planning - the 2013, Astros in the American League schedule is now available.
http://houston.astros.mlb.com/schedu...lendar=DEFAULT

[G R 'Scott' Cundiff]

An in depth look at the Astros farm system. From the looks of things the club has a good chance of enjoying a bright future.

http://brianmctaggart.mlblogs.com/20...-league-recap/

[Michael Flowers]

Unfortunately they have to play against the AL West which is filled with teams that have done well at amassing young talent in their farm systems. Also, with teams like the Angels and Rangers who are willing to spend when necessary the division is turning into an incarnation of the AL/NL East.

In the past I would occasionally cheer for the Astros to do well, unfortunately since I am a Seattle Mariners' fan, I will only be able to cheer for them if it would benefit Seattle.

I'm glad that they have adjusted the division sizes because it really needed to be done. I look forward to seeing just how it impacts things next season.

[G R 'Scott' Cundiff]

It was a meaningless game, but I couldn't help but watch the Astros/Cubs game today. Two 100 loss teams finishing disappointing seasons. It was the Astros' last game as a National League team. There isn't a lot of joy over this move although I think the fans will come around once Houston is able to field a competitive team, something that is almost sure to happen in the years to come.

The team will now play a lot more late night games and I think that will decrease their TV value. They will lose a lot of games next year and that's going to be painful too. However, when they start winning (whenever that happens) I think the fans will come back.

Anyway, it's too bad they didn't finish on a win and it's too bad that they are being forced to the American league. They are finishing their 50 years in the National League with a whimper. There's nowhere to go but up.

[Benjamin Burch]

There isn't a lot of joy over this move...

The team will now play a lot more late night games....

(1) Why are fans not happy about it? Does NL or AL matter?
(2) Wy will they play a lot more late night games?

Anyway, it's too bad they didn't finish on a win and it's too bad that they are being forced to the American league. They are finishing their 50 years in the National League with a whimper. There's nowhere to go but up.

I don't understand why they moved Houston and not Milwaukee. Milwaukee was an AL team for a very long time until they moved over. Why not move them back?

The only thing I can think of is current rivalries. Since Houston stinks, they don't have any, and are the easiest to move.

[G R 'Scott' Cundiff]

(1) Why are fans not happy about it? Does NL or AL matter?
(2) Wy will they play a lot more late night games?



I don't understand why they moved Houston and not Milwaukee. Milwaukee was an AL team for a very long time until they moved over. Why not move them back?

The only thing I can think of is current rivalries. Since Houston stinks, they don't have any, and are the easiest to move.

They are playing in the AL west which means all their road divisional games aside from those will the Rangers will be played on the west coast and will have a starting time of 9:00 pm here...so there will be a lot more late night games.

[Jim Franklin]

This might even get Seattle out of the AL West cellar.

[Michael Flowers]

This might even get Seattle out of the AL West cellar.

Yea, I think Seattle will win between 85 and 90 games next year. All they need to do is have one strong bat added to the lineup and its possible. They have a few Triple A guys who could do it and moving in the SAFECO Field fences will make it even more likely. Seattle had one of the youngest teams in baseball this year and will have again next year. They won't be in the bottom for long (especially with the Astros moving over to help them).

[Note that this post comes from a Mariners fan]

[Jim Franklin]

Mike, I never could have guessed. Ya dem Mariners still hold the record for the most games won in a season at 116 when they had Ichiro, ARod, Randy, Junior and Martinez in their lineup. But it seems like whenever the Mariners get some really good ones their budget requires them to trade them away.

[Benjamin Burch]

[Note that this post comes from a Mariners fan]

Yea... 15 games is a big jump in the best division in baseball. Trading some losses against the A's, Angels, and Rangers for wins against the Astros will certainly help. I don't see any more than 85, though. Also, moving in the fences is a neutral adjustment. It helps out opposing hitters as much as it does yours.

[G R 'Scott' Cundiff]

I'm not dreaming of an Astros pennant next year but I won't be surprised at all if they spoil a lot of AL West team's expectations of having games with the Astros be easy series' wins. They have a ton of young talent that is a year or two away from giving them a winning season.

I'd say you should remember that you heard it here first, but, if you're paying attention, that's what a lot of people "in the biz" are saying too.

[Michael Flowers]

Mike, I never could have guessed. Ya dem Mariners still hold the record for the most games won in a season at 116 when they had Ichiro, ARod, Randy, Junior and Martinez in their lineup. But it seems like whenever the Mariners get some really good ones their budget requires them to trade them away.

Actually none of those players left because the Mariners wanted them to. Arod jumped away for what was a ridiculous contract at the time, Griffey Jr requested a trade after receiving threats against his family, Randy was traded due to some disagreements with management and his impending free agency, Ichiro was traded at his own request and for the betterment of the teams younger players who needed more playing time. Martinez retired after a very successful career and was always a Mariner.

[Michael Flowers]

Yea... 15 games is a big jump in the best division in baseball. Trading some losses against the A's, Angels, and Rangers for wins against the Astros will certainly help. I don't see any more than 85, though. Also, moving in the fences is a neutral adjustment. It helps out opposing hitters as much as it does yours.

Yea, but look at the Orioles and the A's. Who saw that coming!

I don't see them winning 90 games next year but I don't think that 85 is out of the question. They put together a very solid second half of the season and with the right additions and growth of their own players they can make a very serious run, especially if Hamilton leaves the Rangers.

One of the Mariners more accurate bloggers (usually) has suggested that the Mariners sign Swisher and Melky Cabrera this offseason. If you add those two bats to the lineup the Mariners could potentially keep up very well with the offensive production of their opponents. Also, since the Mariners have primarily ground ball pitchers (excluding Vargas) the fences moving in shouldn't hurt them as much as some might think (though it will definitely impact pitching to some degree).

[Michael Flowers]

I'm not dreaming of an Astros pennant next year but I won't be surprised at all if they spoil a lot of AL West team's expectations of having games with the Astros be easy series' wins. They have a ton of young talent that is a year or two away from giving them a winning season.

I'd say you should remember that you heard it here first, but, if you're paying attention, that's what a lot of people "in the biz" are saying too.

The problem for them is that they are coming to the AL West where all of the teams have deep farm systems at the moment with talent a year or two away from making big impacts. The AL West is turning back into one of the better and harder to predict divisions in baseball.

[G R 'Scott' Cundiff]

The problem for them is that they are coming to the AL West where all of the teams have deep farm systems at the moment with talent a year or two away from making big impacts. The AL West is turning back into one of the better and harder to predict divisions in baseball.

I understand. I was just reacting the the idea that the Astros will be easy wins for everyone in their division. I think they'll be on the upswing next year (hopefully they can't do any worse) and will surprise those who are counting their chickens before they are hatched.

[Benjamin Burch]

Yea, but look at the Orioles and the A's. Who saw that coming!

I don't see them winning 90 games next year but I don't think that 85 is out of the question. They put together a very solid second half of the season and with the right additions and growth of their own players they can make a very serious run, especially if Hamilton leaves the Rangers.

One of the Mariners more accurate bloggers (usually) has suggested that the Mariners sign Swisher and Melky Cabrera this offseason. If you add those two bats to the lineup the Mariners could potentially keep up very well with the offensive production of their opponents. Also, since the Mariners have primarily ground ball pitchers (excluding Vargas) the fences moving in shouldn't hurt them as much as some might think (though it will definitely impact pitching to some degree).

I don't see Melky being any use. I'm not one of the guys who gets overly worked up about steroids. My position is that, in general, steroids are much ado about nothing.

(1) All the guys who we note for steroid use were already HoF players before they took a drop
(2) For every McGwire, there is a guy in the Mitchel Report who sucked even though he did Steroids

However, there are the rare few guys who suck, then take steroids/testosterone and blow up. Melky is one of those guys.

With an entire career of below-average production, Melky's best season was barely league-average production wise until last year. Two straight years of all-star performance, followed by a positive PED test.

Take away the PEDs, and I'm convinced Melky goes back to a league-average producer. I wouldn't waste your time or money. Swish, on the other hand, could be a good upgrade, but I see him commanding more money than he's worth. I'm not sure what I think about the signing if he gets anywhere near what he wants. He's worth about 4yr/$45 imo, but will end up signing for much more than that on the open market. I'm not sure how friendly that is to a team like the Mariners. We'll see.

As to the Orioles, anyone should have seen it coming. JJ Hardy was a brilliant addition and they are full of young talent. The one outlier was their bullpen. It likely won't repeat this performance last year and without it they aren't really a playoff team.