I already explained. In order to show that your reply to Ben's post is basically a flame. But I understand you're not really getting it so I'll leave it here.Originally Posted by Dale Cozby
As to the forum, enough has been explained for whoever wants to understand.
"No scripture can mean that God is not love, or that his mercy is not over all his works" (John Wesley - Free Grace, 26)
And this is the fundamental point of our disagreement. The Scriptures never say anywhere (that I know of) about "Jesus in your heart." The dominant language is "in Christ." I'd also not say the Sacraments are "magic", they are "grace." They are "means of grace." They are the means by which God dispenses grace to God's people. Therefore, while not "magic", they empower us and "transform us by Christ" and make us "be like Christ" and give us "love for others."
They are the normative means whereby God gives God's people saving, sustaining, transforming, and sanctifying grace.
- Ben
Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death! And to those in the tombs, bestowing life!
Χριστὸς ἀνέστη ἐκ νεκρῶν, θανάτῳ θάνατον πατήσας! καὶ τοῖς ἐν τοῖς μνήμασι, ζωὴν χαρισάμενος!Post Thanks / Like - 2 Thanks, 0 Laughing
Millions of Christians, if not billions, have shown that it's quite possible to be saved (Soteria - Single moment, cathartic, snap shot, repentant) without ever actually participating in the Sozo salvation that Christ came to bring through His ministry, in His Kingdom.
We also see that there are many who appear to be participating in the Sozo (redemptive, regenerative, serving) ministry of Christ, without necessarily adhering to the Soteria aspect of salvation.
We can say what we want about how the sacraments are holy, or have aspects of Grace, but it can be easily observed by those around us whether taking part in those activities is actually changing anything about us.
I would say that for the many who have been taught Soteria Salvation without any attached need for Sozo, life would be empty were that emptiness not filled with a need to rescue others from hell, and likewise those who are only taught Sozo get service without holiness. Neither is particularly correct; both are culturally far more common than a synthesis bound by agape. To our continuing misfortune.
We struggle so much with universalism precisely because we have split Christ in half, and refuse, most often, to deal with him as a whole, and then wonder why we continue to have identity crisis.
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You clearly don't read me correctly at all.
Check out this blog entry.
Check out this NN post.
Check out this Blog post and the conversation that ensues.
Christians are Christians because Christ and Christ's Body matters a lot. It is not meaningless. It is our life. It is everything to us. We are a new creation in and through it.
Christians evangelize because we are so consumed and overwhelmed by this experience that we wish others to be a part of it. Also check out my posts elsewhere, including a recent one in the "should Christians vote?" thread. If you don't think that I think the Church, and our self-identification as the Church is important... you're so far off that I can't even address you.
- Ben
Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death! And to those in the tombs, bestowing life!
Χριστὸς ἀνέστη ἐκ νεκρῶν, θανάτῳ θάνατον πατήσας! καὶ τοῖς ἐν τοῖς μνήμασι, ζωὴν χαρισάμενος!
Didn't Apostle Paul become one with Christ outside the Church?
Thanks
Larry
Post Thanks / Like - 1 Thanks, 0 LaughingDavid Graham - "thanks" for this post
You do know that "Jesus in your heart" language is metaphorical language that is an attempt to describe what happens when God get a hold on someone. It is, perhaps, not the most nuanced language but it give a good word picture of how God can so permeate out lives that we begin to look like Christ in this world.
When you speak of the sacraments, you make them sound like a magic bullet. Just sayin'.
But we fundamentally disagree on this point, and that's ok.
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The very act of being one with Christ makes one part of the Church. You join with God....through Christ and in the Spirit and become part of His body. It has nothing to do with 501c3 corporations or Guys in robes and pointy hats saying a few words over you. Anyone who is one with Christ is the church. I am the church, you are the church, we are the church.
The Spirit calls all men to Himself, and because of the work of Christ this is possible. Paul became part of Christ's body when he encountered the Living God on the roadside. To worship the Living God is to worship Christ. To have faith in God is to have faith in Jesus Christ. If one worships the Living God, They are in fact worshipping the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
To be "in Christ" is to be in a saving relationship with God, that faith that we have grace for sins and God is just and merciful. "Christ in you" is the infilling of the Spirit which is to be like Christ. To become like Him and walk "in the way".
PS. One more thought. Everyone of us came to Christ from outside His Church. We were in fact called to be part of His Church from outside it. You can sit inside a building with pews for years and be an outsider to the Church.
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I try to make them sound like the means of grace, the mighty, powerful, transformative grace of the God of Jesus Christ. I try to not speak about them as though they accomplish goals automatically. So, I try to not talk about them as magic. Maybe I don't succeed.
- Ben
Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death! And to those in the tombs, bestowing life!
Χριστὸς ἀνέστη ἐκ νεκρῶν, θανάτῳ θάνατον πατήσας! καὶ τοῖς ἐν τοῖς μνήμασι, ζωὴν χαρισάμενος!Post Thanks / Like - 1 Thanks, 0 Laughing
I believe that many of us have witnessed that the heart that you bring to communion has more to do with the grace one encounters there than the act itself. What you have communicated of late, Ben, is a belief in the power of the act itself outside of the heart that comes to it. This may not have been your intention.
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By the way Ben, I do also believe that the sacraments are means of grace, I simply have a problem with the word "normative".
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It is God who dispenses grace. It is not our hearts who dispense grace.
Love (and grace) is free from conditions and exists as a thought even on its unconditionality, on its givenness. Love (and grace) is reinforced by “the gift," it does not require for the one to whom it is given to receive it. It needs only to be given by the one who gives.
So, the grace in the Eucharist and Baptism are given to us regardless of our heart that we bring to it. Naturally, as always with grace, our reception of that gift does affect how it is actualized and realized in our own lives... but our hope is always that God's grace might transform us and save us in spite of ourselves - is it not?
- Ben
Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death! And to those in the tombs, bestowing life!
Χριστὸς ἀνέστη ἐκ νεκρῶν, θανάτῳ θάνατον πατήσας! καὶ τοῖς ἐν τοῖς μνήμασι, ζωὴν χαρισάμενος!
Hmmm.... As long as the person coming to receive God's grace comes in faith, believing... Without faith, God's gift of grace isn't received. It just bounces off.
I'm not saying perfect faith. Or lots of faith. As little as a mustard seed. "I do believe. Help my unbelief!"
I'm not sure how well that meshes with what you're saying in this last post.
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I tried to said something quite similar here...Hmmm.... As long as the person coming to receive God's grace comes in faith, believing... Without faith, God's gift of grace isn't received. It just bounces off.
I'm not saying perfect faith. Or lots of faith. As little as a mustard seed. "I do believe. Help my unbelief!"
I'm not sure how well that meshes with what you're saying in this last post.
- Ben
Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death! And to those in the tombs, bestowing life!
Χριστὸς ἀνέστη ἐκ νεκρῶν, θανάτῳ θάνατον πατήσας! καὶ τοῖς ἐν τοῖς μνήμασι, ζωὴν χαρισάμενος!
As with all else, it's a partnership. If you are not open to receive...
I find that that grace which transforms is present in a million tiny details throughout life, far more than it is present at the Eucharist. But then, no matter how hard I try, Communion mostly fails to warm my heart. It's this thing we do. This doesn't mean that it doesn't have meaning, or that it isn't significant for others. But I think partially from growing up Baptist, and Communion being an opportunity to flagellate myself for sin, I have a great deal of trouble entering into it as an act of Grace. My head knows it, but my heart flees it.
It will be what it will be.
Much of the rhetoric behind a high view of the sacraments is indistinguishable from magical language...which is why those holding such a point of view so often feel compelled to issue a disclaimer that the sacraments are not magical.
I think that the water in baptism or the wine and bread of the eucharist are not means of grace at all, but the partaking thereof can be visual indicators of faith - and faith is the means of grace.
For a faithless heart, the bread and wine are no more transformative than a handful of pretzels and a Budweiser.
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Is it surprising that the proposed essentials in a Christian Pluralistic theology would be profoundly Christian? Is it possible that the traditionally exclusivist claims of Christianity cannot mesh with pluralism in any meaningful way? ...unless we want to define pluralism as a generosity toward various traditions under the Christian umbrella. Maybe that would be a good thing.
I think that universalism gets us all uptight to the extent that we project our sense of justice onto Jesus Christ. Mercy is profoundly offensive to those who have worked hard for their salvation.
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To me, what you've done here is take grace out of God's hands, and put it in our hands. Faith is not a means of grace... faith is our ability to receive grace.
- Ben
Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death! And to those in the tombs, bestowing life!
Χριστὸς ἀνέστη ἐκ νεκρῶν, θανάτῳ θάνατον πατήσας! καὶ τοῖς ἐν τοῖς μνήμασι, ζωὴν χαρισάμενος!
Dale I agree with you here!
Thanks
Larry
Would not the wine and bread also take grace out of God's hands, since someone has to buy the wine and bread and distribute it to the congregation, who then has to take some kind of action in order to ingest the elements?
What if faith is a God-given ability, and not something we 'will ourselves' into possessing? God gives us grace along with the faith to receive it. Maybe Ephesians 2:8-9 has some relevance here?
To say that the wine and bread are means of grace seems like magic with a sanctified veneer of theological language. It probably seems anti-Catholic to say it, but some aspects of Catholic practice similarly appear to be pre-modern superstition that became enshrined in Church tradition. Given the fact that this is the post-traditional forum, I sense a measure of extra freedom to call the Church out for this kind of stuff.
I think there is a way forward for the sacraments in evangelical belief and practice, but magical claims are a dead-end.
But, you see, I'm also saying God gives grace in many other places, not just communion. But this is still not a magical claim... do we believe that Christ is really present to his people in the elements? Are we really Baptised into Christ's death and resurrection, or do we just say a bunch of words?
- Ben
Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death! And to those in the tombs, bestowing life!
Χριστὸς ἀνέστη ἐκ νεκρῶν, θανάτῳ θάνατον πατήσας! καὶ τοῖς ἐν τοῖς μνήμασι, ζωὴν χαρισάμενος!Post Thanks / Like - 1 Thanks, 0 Laughing
Christ is really present to those who partake in faith. The elements are incidental. I'm enough of a realist to acknowledge that people need a concrete manifestation of unseen realities (the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak), but Christ inhabits our faith, not the bread and wine. In the case of baptism, we change out of our wet clothes and dry ourselves off, but the reality of baptism is not in the water, but in the faith made visible in our public profession.
Let's say that John Smith is a member of your congregation and due to widespread cancer, he is sustained by a feeding tube and is unable to take the wine and the bread. Surely you are not so rigidly committed to the physical elements that you would sadly deny him communion?
I sometimes think that the second commandment exists because of the human tendency to assign too much importance to those things we can see, smell, hear, taste, and touch.
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It feels odd to be in complete agreement with Billy.
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And I sometimes think we have a tendency to look at things so spiritually, that we can no longer see the grace of God can work through the simple things we can see, smell, hear, taste and touch. Sounds pretty Gnostic to me. But the incarnation, if anything, shows God can indeed be seen, smelled, heard, and touched. And I guess, in the Lord's Supper, in a way even be tasted.
There should be a way between Gnosticism on the one hand, and sacramentalism on the other. In the sacrament, there's more going on than my faith alone.
"No scripture can mean that God is not love, or that his mercy is not over all his works" (John Wesley - Free Grace, 26)Post Thanks / Like - 3 Thanks, 0 Laughing
Maybe the middle way on this is to acknowledge (as Paul did with regard to food sacrificed to idols) that substance is inconsequential in light of the content of our faith, while also acknowledging that the physicality of the elements represents Jesus' physical immersion in the human condition.
Also, the fact that we partake together is a visible reminder that my faith operates within a community of believers.
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