John 5:19

[Eric Vail]

I may not have been clear enough, my apologies. Perhaps I should focus. When I read in the Gospels about what Jesus did, I see Him preach, teach, hang out with people and especially, heal. Ryan, I agree that his actions are redemptive but my problem is that in Jesus, I see God's redemption but perhaps most strongly, His compassion at work in His healings. (I agree with your remark, Scott.) Where or how do I see God's compassion at work, directly, before or after Jesus? A rare occurrence here or there, but nothing like what He was doing in those few years.

I'm convinced that if Jesus were around, He'd be healing people as much as He did back then. People would just have had to touch His garment, or just ask. I do not see the Father doing that, either before or after Jesus' ministry on earth. (I know that it doesn't produce faith much, but that's exactly the point, He did it anyway, even knowing the result would be minimal, out of sheer compassion)

So I wonder, what did He see that I do not see?

This is especially important because we obviously are to follow Jesus. Where do I see the Father work like that? Even a guy here in the Netherlands with a healing ministry has thousands at each service, but only few, very few, find healing. This was not so with Jesus.

Luke 9.11: When the crowds found out about it, they followed him; and he welcomed them, and spoke to them about the kingdom of God, and healed those who needed to be cured.

Hans, you're asking a good question. In the fourth century many orthodox Christians were speaking in the framework of the "inseparable operations" of the triune Godhead. When we say that one person is doing something, we ought never to think the other two persons are not also at work. We would be guilty of modalism or tritheism if we do not affirm that the one God, triune in essential nature, is not in all things operating inseparably.

Even in affirming this, nevertheless, the fathers did not say that the three persons were each doing the exact same thing. They were inseparably operating in every thing, but they were operating according to what is appropriate to each of the persons. So the Son can be doing what the Son sees the Father doing (affirming the monarchy of the Father and the inseparability of operations), while not literally doing the exact same activity--since they are two distinct persons of the Trinity. The persons have unique, yet inseparable operations in every action of the Trinity. The task the Trinity is doing is one, while the operations are not.

[Hans Deventer]

Even in affirming this, nevertheless, the fathers did not say that the three persons were each doing the exact same thing. They were inseparably operating in every thing, but they were operating according to what is appropriate to each of the persons. So the Son can be doing what the Son sees the Father doing (affirming the monarchy of the Father and the inseparability of operations), while not literally doing the exact same activity--since they are two distinct persons of the Trinity. The persons have unique, yet inseparable operations in every action of the Trinity. The task the Trinity is doing is one, while the operations are not.

Agreed. I guess the heart of the matter comes pretty close to the problem of theodicy though.

[Steven Martinez]

See Eric, you just answered the age old question... God can create a rock that God cannot lift.

[John Kennedy]

See Eric, you just answered the age old question... God can create a rock that God cannot lift.

Man, if you'd been around Bethany in '57-'58 your revelation would've saved a heckuva lotta people a heckuva lotta time. On the other hand, we would've probably just wasted the time studying.

Of course, since you weren't ordained then, it wouldn't have carried as much weight with some.

[Steven Martinez]

Man, if you'd been around Bethany in '57-'58 your revelation would've saved a heckuva lotta people a heckuva lotta time. On the other hand, we would've probably just wasted the time studying.

Of course, since you weren't ordained then, it wouldn't have carried as much weight with some.

Ordained?!?! My mother was only 4 years old!

[John Kennedy]

Ordained?!?! My mother was only 4 years old!

Admittedly, prenatal ordination is a tough sell in anybody's ecclesiology.