My Schooling for Ministry Did NOT INclude HVAC Training--Input Requested

[Pete Vecchi]

My schooling for ministry did not include HVAC training. Yet it seems that more and more of my time lately has been spent trying to get the furnace to heat the sanctuary properly.

Actually, the furnace is most likely working exactly as it was designed to work, in that a "fail-safe" part of the furnace that is designed to make sure that the exhaust from the natural gas vent doesn't get back into the building keeps activating and shutting the furnace off. We've had a professional HVAC company come out to look at the situation twice (at about $90 per service call with the the first call lasting about an hour and the second lasting about 10 minutes) over the past month or so, and both of the people who came out agreed that the issue seems to be related to the exhaust pipe.

This system has been in the building since before my 2004 arrival as the congregation's pastor. We have had some issues with this situation in the past few years, and have been told by professional HVAC people that it is likely that the PVC exhaust pipe leading out of the building was too close to the outside part of the air conditioning unit for the same furnace/air conditioner; the pipe was emitting exhaust directly towards the a/c unit, which is only about 2-3 feet away from the PVC exhaust pipe opening. The diagnosis was that exhaust from the pipe was hitting the a/c unit and swirling the gasses in such a way that the "fail-safe" was being activated because it sensed gas still in the pipe. It was suggested that we re-direct the exhaust away from the a/c unit.

Rather than pay inflated prices to HVAC people for them to extend some piping, we decided to try to do it ourselves. The first fix included attaching about 8 feet of corrugated pipe to the end of the PVC pipe and re-routing the exhaust away from the a/c unit. This seemed to work fairly well, until this past Wednesday evening. Suddenly, the furnace shut off and the indicator lights on the furnace showed the same problem--that the "fail-safe" had kicked in again, most likely again due to blockage in the exhaust system. This is when we made our second call to the HVAC people, and this person told us that the corrugated pipe was not a good solution, as the pipe was letting water from condensation build up in the pipe, thereby blocking the gasses from flowing out of the pipe, and making the "fail-safe" kick in. The HVAC person lifted the 8' tubing up and about a gallon of water came out. He told us that corrugated pipe was not a good idea, but rather that it had to be smooth, like a PVC extension. He suggested an extension that went over the approximately 4-foot tall a/c unit.

So yesterday, we extended the PVC pipe up to about 2-3' above the a/c unit (Thanks to Jimmy and Charlie for working on that!). But this morning when I got to the building, the furnace "fail-safe" had again kicked in, and the sanctuary temperature as of about 7:45a.m. was only 60 degrees. We noticed that the new PVC pipe had an elbow joint on the end which was facing downward. We thought about this, and decided that perhaps the exhaust gas was rising back up into the pipe. So we therefore took a hacksaw to the end and made the end of the pipe vertical again (pointing out away from the building)--the way it had been prior to adding the extension (only now considerable above the a/c unit, and directed on a 45-degree angle between the a/c unit and the building). This was at about 8:45a.m., and the furnace now seemed to be running properly--until about 11:00a.m. or so, when the "fail-safe" kicked in again.

We are at a loss as to what to do next. Someone suggested that by adding the approximately 4' of PVC pipe going up that condensation may be collecting in the bottom of the pipe (even though re-routing the PVC over the a/c unit was what the most recent HCAC person said was needed). We have considered drilling a small hole in the bottom of that PVC to let any collected condensation water drain out the bottom, but we don't know if this is a viable alternative or not.

We don't want to call the HVAC people out again, and have them charge us yet another $90 to tell us what we already know--that the "fail-safe" is kicking in. What we are looking for is someone with some knowledge in this area who might be able to give us more advice. As I said, they did not teach HVAC in my ministry training, so I am open to (and hoping to get) some suggestions. Please feel free to offer any suggestions by commenting to this post.
Thanks!

[Doug Kitchen]

Pete,
(I am not an HVAC expert!!! not even an HVAC hobbyist)

It is good that you are fixing this before winter. Our church's furnaces were doing similar things last Feb. - starting up then shutting themselves off. Our second HVAC group got the furnaces working again and they worked through the rest of the winter. Our problem was that a tennis ball got into the PVC pipes and was blocking the air intake. Last year we had 4 furnaces which when one intake was completely blocked started to shutdown the others. In our situation, it was the second set of HVAC people who found the tennis ball. This group had a Nazarene connection and gave us discounts on the final installation.

New HVAC installations are much trickier than they used to be - Our new pair of furnaces has a pair of intake pvc and exhaust pvc. They come out of the church wall like two arms raised in the air and two legs kneeling. The angles have to be right to avoid condensation and funnelling rain water into the furnace.

My guess is that if it were simply your pvc piping, that any of the hvac visits would have been able to fix it in a few minutes since this all standard furnace installation. My thought is that there is now a bad sensor or the burner/heat exchanger is bad because something is currently blocking the airflow now (or in the past). What we found out is that the tennis ball had done a lot of damage. The immediate repair involved borrowing parts from the four units to get two units working. It took a while for the better HVAC guy to find the problems that the lesser HVAC guy missed.

Somewhere on your district there must be a reliable Nazarene HVAC professional. Our property board has an informal list of building professionals. If not, then, try another HVAC company.

Doug

[Jim Chabot]

Pete:

What you are describing sounds like a bad "proving" switch in the unit. There is usually a pair of vacuum operated switches connected to the draft blower by short lengths of flexible tubing. Over time one of these switches may have filled with condensate which will prevent it from obtaining a correct vacuum reading and trigger the failsafe. I have gotten them working again by removing the switch and sucking the water out of it, then replacing the switch later on of course.

I would try a different HVAC company as Doug has suggested. In some areas HVAC is a learn as you go occupation.

[Pete Vecchi]

Doug and Jim,

Thanks for the responses. Just to clarify, each of the HVAC people who came out weer from the same company. They didn't "fix" anything, and we were charged each time for a "service call" at (I think) $89.95 each time. There is an LED indicator on the furnace that flashes in code sequences to alert us to any problems. Each of these HVAC guys saw the LED indicators, saw the exhaust situation, and said that was the problem. We've had several HVAC people over the past several years comment that the original PVC exhaust pipe was likely too close to the outdoor a/c unit, thus causing the fail-safe to activate. The ac unit is part of this same furnace/air conditioning system, meaning that the original installation from probably a dozen years ago was faulty in its placement of the unit so close to the exhaust. But the installation of this unit occurred a number of years prior to my becoming this congregation's pastor, most of the people who were part of this congregation when the unit was installed are no longer part of this congregation, and so much time has passed since the installation that nothing would be able to be done anyway.

This much I [I]do[I] know: There was about a gallon of water condensation inside the corrugated tube, because I saw the HVAC guy dump it out of there, so what he said about the condensation makes sense to me.

[Dennis M. Scott]

Doug and Jim have far more HVAC expertise than I about your crisis. The real problem, however, is that your ministerial training was so inadequate. Why don't district credential boards think of those things? They certainly are more universal than some of the things they want us to talk about.

[Pete Vecchi]

Thanks for the input. What we've decided to do after some conversations and inquiries (including here) is have the furnace's sensor checked to see if perhaps that's where the problem might be.

[Pete Vecchi]

Doug and Jim have far more HVAC expertise than I about your crisis. The real problem, however, is that your ministerial training was so inadequate. Why don't district credential boards think of those things? They certainly are more universal than some of the things they want us to talk about.

I know that this post was intended to be funny, and it was. At the same time, it brings to me the reality of thought that it's a shame that there are people who probably think that ministers should be the ones to fix all kinds of mechanical problems in the church building.

This morning when I was fooling with the furnace situation, I was doing it during a time when I normally am going over my morning message for the final time before the service. I can't help but think about the similarity that can be drawn between that and when the book of Acts says that it would not be right for the apostles to neglect the ministry of the Word to wait on tables...

[Pete Vecchi]

I have spent way too much time on this issue these past several weeks. following up, we had someone from another HVAV company come in and look at the situation. They basically said that all of the problems most likely were NOT caused by the air flow being clogged, because the furnace has been there (along with the same venting system) since 2001, and the problems just started occurring over the past 3 years or so. They said that there was notning inside the pipes to be blocking them.

The new diagnosis is that the motor was likely not running at a high enough RPM to keep the fail safe in the proper position. But rather that replace the motor (at a cost of $400 or more) they tried something else--replacing the fail safe to one that had a different sensitivity level--a level that would work with the lower RPM of the motor. The cost for the service call AND the new switch was just under $120. As of Wednesday evening when we had the furnace set to run for evening activities, things seemed to work properly.

So, all it's cost the congregation financially thus far is about $300 -- with about $200 or that being for wrong diagnoses and potential fixes to those wrong diagnoses.

[Jim Chabot]

I have spent way too much time on this issue these past several weeks. following up, we had someone from another HVAV company come in and look at the situation. They basically said that all of the problems most likely were NOT caused by the air flow being clogged, because the furnace has been there (along with the same venting system) since 2001, and the problems just started occurring over the past 3 years or so. They said that there was notning inside the pipes to be blocking them.

The new diagnosis is that the motor was likely not running at a high enough RPM to keep the fail safe in the proper position. But rather that replace the motor (at a cost of $400 or more) they tried something else--replacing the fail safe to one that had a different sensitivity level--a level that would work with the lower RPM of the motor. The cost for the service call AND the new switch was just under $120. As of Wednesday evening when we had the furnace set to run for evening activities, things seemed to work properly.

So, all it's cost the congregation financially thus far is about $300 -- with about $200 or that being for wrong diagnoses and potential fixes to those wrong diagnoses.

Glad to hear that you are up and running again. And real glad to hear that they didn't replace the motor. The draft blower motor is an induction motor. The frequency of the electricity supplying it governs it's speed. Think of a bunch of electromagnetic coils around the outside and a permanent magnet inside. As the electricity pulsates at 60 times per second, each pulse advances the rotor to the next position and so on and so forth. It would take a mechanical obstruction such as bad bearings to slow down the motor and the motor would quickly fail. Since it hasn't failed yet, it is probably still good.

Now lets get some mechanical training under your belt! It's all in the small church pastor's job description.

When my pastor was first ordained he was offered a small church on the Maine District. Cecil Jones took him up to see the place. While they were there it was explained that the successful candidate must be handy because the parsonage needed some work to make it liveable.

[Pete Vecchi]

Glad to hear that you are up and running again. And real glad to hear that they didn't replace the motor. The draft blower motor is an induction motor. The frequency of the electricity supplying it governs it's speed. Think of a bunch of electromagnetic coils around the outside and a permanent magnet inside. As the electricity pulsates at 60 times per second, each pulse advances the rotor to the next position and so on and so forth. It would take a mechanical obstruction such as bad bearings to slow down the motor and the motor would quickly fail. Since it hasn't failed yet, it is probably still good.

I hope this is the case!

Now lets get some mechanical training under your belt! It's all in the small church pastor's job description.

When my pastor was first ordained he was offered a small church on the Maine District. Cecil Jones took him up to see the place. While they were there it was explained that the successful candidate must be handy because the parsonage needed some work to make it liveable.

With all due respect to those that are so called, I am not called nor gifted to do the mechanical stuff. Even if I have the head knowledge about what to do, I do not have the skill to work with my hands. These are gifts given by God to various people, as pointed out in Exodus 35:30-35:

Then Moses said to the Israelites, “See, the LORD has chosen Bezalel son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah, and he has filled him with the Spirit of God, with skill, ability and knowledge in all kinds of crafts—to make artistic designs for work in gold, silver and bronze, to cut and set stones, to work in wood and to engage in all kinds of artistic craftsmanship. And he has given both him and Oholiab son of Ahisamach, of the tribe of Dan, the ability to teach others. He has filled them with skill to do all kinds of work as craftsmen, designers, embroiderers in blue, purple and scarlet yarn and fine linen, and weavers—all of them master craftsmen and designers.

As the 2 HVAC guys were working on the furnace Wednesday, there was a time when there were 4 people, including me in the room, and I was feeling like I was doing nothing but being in the way. I therefore went into the sanctuary to practice on some music on the piano for a few minutes. A few minutes later, one of the HVAC guys came up from the furnace in the basement to adjust the thermostat, which was something I could have done (and would have gone to do had I been in the room when they needed the adjustment made). The one guy commented that he couldn't do anything musically, and I told him that I couldn't fix furnaces, and that's fine, because God made us all different.