Young People and Community

[Ryan Pugh]

I am not convinced that he would in fact say that. But maybe he would

Maybe he wouldn't... I would

Maybe it is just the way I am reading it. But it still seems to center on the sermon being a place where we're given some idea, concept, or even "advice" of sorts. I wouldn't put it past me to be reading this wrong.

I don't know that you're necessarily reading it wrong. Remember, they are two different people writing from different contexts and experiences. Yes, there is and should be some connecting since they're both talking about preaching and liturgy. And I think there is.

You're right, though, Tim's post is not about leading the congregation to the Table. But that doesn't mean it's not about proclaiming the word faithfully. Maybe he doesn't view Eucharist as the climax, or maybe he does and just didn't flesh that out in this specific post.

I do understand how you can see Tim's "we want you to make our difficult lives make sense" being directly against the other post. But other statements like "We don't want you to make it easy..." and "Go to a Christian book store, look at the book titles, and say the exact opposite things" can show that he's not just talking about getting advice. He wants honest dialogue and engagement. That's the point of his post.

So I guess what I'm saying is that yes, they are saying different things. But I don't think they are fundamentally at odds because they are focusing on different things.

Perhaps both posts could be expanded to include some ideas on how preachers can faithfully proclaim the word in holistic, engaging ways so that God's people are led to the Table.

[Todd Erickson]

I don't remember the last time I've heard a Sermon in Church and thought "oh, you know, I need to go change something because of that". And that's within the last 20 years or so.

The few sermons that I've gotten "aha!" moments from have been ones that I've listened to on podcasts, usually while I was doing something else.

But the impression I've gotten from our church is that sermons are what people expect, and that they really aren't willing to engage with learning in other ways, even if they'd be more efficient.

Maybe there needs to be room for stealth churches that refuse to engage with church in any way that look like "normal church" precisely so that they're not working against a rut that's been well worn in over 1500 years.

[Billy Cox]

I don't remember the last time I've heard a Sermon in Church and thought "oh, you know, I need to go change something because of that". And that's within the last 20 years or so.

The few sermons that I've gotten "aha!" moments from have been ones that I've listened to on podcasts, usually while I was doing something else.

But the impression I've gotten from our church is that sermons are what people expect, and that they really aren't willing to engage with learning in other ways, even if they'd be more efficient.

Maybe there needs to be room for stealth churches that refuse to engage with church in any way that look like "normal church" precisely so that they're not working against a rut that's been well worn in over 1500 years.

I believe that there is a time and place for a sermon in the same way that there is a time an place of teaching multiplication tables or proper sentence construction. Sermons are a critical delivery method for the many milk-drinkers in the church; whether they are new to the faith or whether they have subsisted in a state of spiritual dependence for 20-50+ years.

The presumption is that those who have become mature in faith will see the infantile fare and simply feed themselves, whereas the immature might starve without their weekly bottle.

Young people encounter the church as a nursery. If you don't need a bottle, your role is surely to prepare bottles for those who do. Outside of those two categories, the church really doesn't need you, and young people willingly oblige.

[Todd Erickson]

I believe that there is a time and place for a sermon in the same way that there is a time an place of teaching multiplication tables or proper sentence construction. Sermons are a critical delivery method for the many milk-drinkers in the church; whether they are new to the faith or whether they have subsisted in a state of spiritual dependence for 20-50+ years.

The presumption is that those who have become mature in faith will see the infantile fare and simply feed themselves, whereas the immature might starve without their weekly bottle.

Young people encounter the church as a nursery. If you don't need a bottle, your role is surely to prepare bottles for those who do. Outside of those two categories, the church really doesn't need you, and young people willingly oblige.

This has been my experience. Once you hit a certain point...the only meaningful questions about church is what you can do for other people, and hopefully you can find sustenance elsewhere.

But church does not train or equip you to find sustenance elsewhere. So either you make the leap on your own...or you don't. A lot of this is personality types and learning styles, as well... a lot of the folks I see heavily engaged in retaining some idea of Christianity community in a countercultural way are introverts...we're often very subtle, but very stubborn, and we're working in the background to find alternatives.

At some point, everything is an aspect of "I know that there should be something else, but I've never actually seen it, so I can't explain to you what's missing...I literally don't have the words". This annoys both extroverts and leaders to no end...they want a nail to put their hammer to, and we keep asking if, in fact, maybe the hammer stops being the right tool very quickly into the process.

It's sort of like the whole "Love Wins" issue. The Evangelical world only wants to drag out and argue over universalism, heaven and hell, when the entire point of the book was, in fact, how to have life here and now. But the church isn't equipped to talk about that outside of liberal Christianity, and so they ignore it or call it a dodge.

When you get tired of having the same infantile conversations about the ineffable, where are you supposed to go?

[Billy Cox]

When you get tired of having the same infantile conversations about the ineffable, where are you supposed to go?

That's the $64,000 question.

One of the alternate ways to read the Great Commission is informative in this regard. You may be aware that the imperative verb in Matthew 28:19-20 is not 'Go' but is 'disciple'...not a noun, but a verb. So one possible translation is, "As you go, disciple the nations..."

Don't worry about where you go, just pray for the wisdom to disciple those who are asking, seeking, knocking. They are all around us, and the church is just as tone deaf to them as it is to us.

Affiliate with the church if you want, just be prepared for occasional reminders that you aren't doing enough.