Poteet...I'm Calling You Out, Man!

[Wes Smith]

Brother Jim,

I'm fairly certain that you had an opion of Tim Tebow...something like he would never throw a pass in the NFL. Or, something pretty close to that.

We need an update on your opinion.

The jury is still out on Tebow, but something is happening.

Predictions? Insights? Would love to hear/read what you have to say now.

Friend,

Wes

[Shea Zellweger]

Who's Brian Tebow?

[Wes Smith]

Who's Brian Tebow?

Have no idea. This thread is about Tim Tebow. Where did you come up with "Brian?"

Friend,

Wes

PS. My problem. Spaced it!

[Ryan Scott]

He's not going to be a starting QB for very long. Even Elway said they're no closer to finding a starter now than they were five weeks ago. He's winning some games, but he's terrible on third down and he can't throw on a regular basis.

I can't wait to see what Belichick has in store for him - even with a bad defense.

[Wes Smith]

He's not going to be a starting QB for very long. Even Elway said they're no closer to finding a starter now than they were five weeks ago. He's winning some games, but he's terrible on third down and he can't throw on a regular basis.

I can't wait to see what Belichick has in store for him - even with a bad defense.

He's a sophomore, for Pete's sake!

Friend,

Wes

[Bob Hunter]

Here's my take whether he wins or loses, Tebow is a phenomenon.

I've been trying to wrap my mind around it and I can only say that he does have a certain something which is undefinable. He is a hero to underdogs. People identify with his story. He is hated because he is different and he is liked because he is different. He is both revered and hated. He is a symbol of hope to everyone who has been labeled a misfit or told at some point their lives they cannot succeed. When he wins, it is a personal victory of sorts. When he loses, people lose with him. In some sense, people live vicariously through personalities like Tebow.

Tebow defies the odds and tosses aside conventional ways of doing things. He's marching to the beat of his own drum and people are following....by the tens of thousands.

[Ryan Scott]

I'm conflicted in a different way. He seems like a great guy who could do just about anything he wanted. I'd really like him to succeed in something he's good at and stop wasting his time with football.

[Shea Zellweger]

I'm conflicted in a different way. He seems like a great guy who could do just about anything he wanted. I'd really like him to succeed in something he's good at and stop wasting his time with football.

I think he's good at football. Just not so much with throwing the ball. IMO, he has a great future as a FB, HB, TE, DE, or LB any time he wants. But right now, his team's winning, and while they're not winning in the most convincing fashion, he seems to be the one who brings his game up to the level necessary to prevail. I want that guy on my team... just not receiving the snaps.

[Greg Farra]

I guess technically you can call what he's doing is throwing a pass. He may get more starts and wins than Pryor.

[Jim Poteet]

Brother Jim,

I'm fairly certain that you had an opion of Tim Tebow...something like he would never throw a pass in the NFL. Or, something pretty close to that.

We need an update on your opinion.

The jury is still out on Tebow, but something is happening.

Predictions? Insights? Would love to hear/read what you have to say now.

Friend,

Wes

He will not play quarterback long term in the NFL. He does not have the skills. He may play the wildcat or tight end or H back, but not quarterback. It is only a matter of time.

[Wes Smith]

He will not play quarterback long term in the NFL. He does not have the skills. He may play the wildcat or tight end or H back, but not quarterback. It is only a matter of time.

Well, that would certainly place him in the more typical NFL crowd...not playing long, that is.

I have a feeling, a hunch that his personal desire to excel may make him an exception. It doesn't seem possible that he is suiting up every day these days just hoping to do things the way he's always done them. It makes more sense to me that good people are working with him and he is working like crazy to overcome his deficiencies. Under such circumstances I think I would prefer a hugely talented guy with a desire to learn than someone with certain skills but without the strong desire.

We'll see.

Friend,

Wes

[Wes Smith]

I'm conflicted in a different way. He seems like a great guy who could do just about anything he wanted. I'd really like him to succeed in something he's good at and stop wasting his time with football.

Ryan,

Your post strikes me as being rather strange. I'd say his College record and his draft position and his participation on the pro level suggests he doing something he's good at.

Friend,

Wes

[Jim Poteet]

Well, that would certainly place him in the more typical NFL crowd...not playing long, that is.

I have a feeling, a hunch that his personal desire to excel may make him an exception. It doesn't seem possible that he is suiting up every day these days just hoping to do things the way he's always done them. It makes more sense to me that good people are working with him and he is working like crazy to overcome his deficiencies. Under such circumstances I think I would prefer a hugely talented guy with a desire to learn than someone with certain skills but without the strong desire.

We'll see.

Friend,

Wes

I know that you want him to do well. He is a great role model. He is the type of person you and I want a professional athlete to be. However, the old saying "you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear" kind of fits this situation. Tebow cannot throw the ball with the skills needed at the pro level. The defenses will eventually kill him physically because you can't stand up to the constant hits. He does not have the speed of a Michael Vick to avoid the hits. Tebow will spend his time being beat up and ineffective because of injuries if he stays as a full time quarterback.

If he is made a specialist who is called in certain situations to use his strengths, he has a chance to help some team as an effective change up to what is normal. But as a full time starter at quarterback, I don't believe it will happen.

[Benjamin Burch]

I know that you want him to do well. He is a great role model. He is the type of person you and I want a professional athlete to be. However, the old saying "you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear" kind of fits this situation. Tebow cannot throw the ball with the skills needed at the pro level. The defenses will eventually kill him physically because you can't stand up to the constant hits. He does not have the speed of a Michael Vick to avoid the hits. Tebow will spend his time being beat up and ineffective because of injuries if he stays as a full time quarterback.

If he is made a specialist who is called in certain situations to use his strengths, he has a chance to help some team as an effective change up to what is normal. But as a full time starter at quarterback, I don't believe it will happen.

Excellent point which is often missed. People talk about Tebow the way they talk about Vick. The two couldn't be further from each other. Vick started with a much better ability to throw the football (and that isn't say much, Vick wasn't great). Also, while Tebow is freakishly athletic, so are most defenders in the NFL. Michael Vick, on the other hand, is one-in-a-lifetime, frighteningly freakishly athletic. Tebow is very fast for big, strong, 6'5'' 240 lb QB. Vick is faster than most punt returners.

Tebow will not run at the pro level the same way he ran at the college level. He isn't fast enough. He wasn't running against Patrick Willis, Ray Lewis, James Harrison, etc. Only the very best of the best on defense in the NCAA are as big, fast, and strong as the average defender in the NFL. The freaks who are already NFL level talent are spread thin and Tebow rarely faced them.

Tebow won't be able to run by and run over everyone in the NFL like he did in the NCAA. He will get hurt. It's inevitable.

[Wes Smith]

I suppose that our opinions have little or nothing to do with Tim's future success, but I'm firmly in that category of wishing him the best. Pretty sure that we could come up with lots of people who were shoe-ins that didn't make it and lots of people who defied all odds in making it.

Tim has already defied significant odds and opinions just by surviving this long and winning some games along the way!

We'll see, for sure!

Friend,

Wes

[Benjamin Burch]

I suppose that our opinions have little or nothing to do with Tim's future success, but I'm firmly in that category of wishing him the best. Pretty sure that we could come up with lots of people who were shoe-ins that didn't make it and lots of people who defied all odds in making it.

Tim has already defied significant odds and opinions just by surviving this long and winning some games along the way!

We'll see, for sure!

Friend,

Wes

Tebow hasn't actually defied any odds, or opinions. Not one.

To say he has, because he has "won" ignores the reality of why his team is winning, and it's not much to do with him. I offer this post on a sports forum for your consideration: http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums...&postcount=114

Tebow is woeful at getting first downs, converting 3rd downs, keeping drives alive, keeping his defense off the field, and scoring points. You know... everything you need out of an offense.

His defense has won those games with their stingy play, and it's largely a product of the simple fact that the defense has played much lesser offenses and worse overall teams.

Tebow's lack of turnovers has simply been a help, but that's not really a large factor and it is largely attributable to his coaching staff not allowing him to throw the ball much given his 45% completion percentage which is bound to turn into interceptions and turnovers. A one-dimensional offense only scoring 18 points per game is bound to start losing - and losing a lot.

Tebow has not defied one single odd or opinion yet. In fact, he's largely proven them true. Every game he wins sets this Denver franchise back.

Process over results thinking is what leads to success in the long-term. Results-oriented thinking is short-sided and leads to long-term failure. The very fact is that if Tebow doesn't learn to throw a football he will be done quarterbacking by week 8 of next season.

[Wes Smith]

Tebow hasn't actually defied any odds, or opinions. Not one.

To say he has, because he has "won" ignores the reality of why his team is winning, and it's not much to do with him. I offer this post on a sports forum for your consideration: http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums...&postcount=114

Tebow is woeful at getting first downs, converting 3rd downs, keeping drives alive, keeping his defense off the field, and scoring points. You know... everything you need out of an offense.

His defense has won those games with their stingy play, and it's largely a product of the simple fact that the defense has played much lesser offenses and worse overall teams.

Tebow's lack of turnovers has simply been a help, but that's not really a large factor and it is largely attributable to his coaching staff not allowing him to throw the ball much given his 45% completion percentage which is bound to turn into interceptions and turnovers. A one-dimensional offense only scoring 18 points per game is bound to start losing - and losing a lot.

Tebow has not defied one single odd or opinion yet. In fact, he's largely proven them true. Every game he wins sets this Denver franchise back.

Process over results thinking is what leads to success in the long-term. Results-oriented thinking is short-sided and leads to long-term failure. The very fact is that if Tebow doesn't learn to throw a football he will be done quarterbacking by week 8 of next season.

Wow, Brother Ben,

You speak with such great authority here. Where do you get such great wisdom? When I was a kid, we had a "crazy 8 ball" that we could ask questions! Did you get ahold of one of those?

So let's take all the guys playing College football, narrow that down to all the guys playing on Division 1 teams, then narrow that down to guys that start for Division 1 teams, then narrow that down to the guys who ever get mentioned in any conversation about excellence, then narrow that down to all the guys who hope to be drafted into the NFL, then narrow that down to the guys that play in a bowl game, then narrow that down to the guys that lead a team to a national title, then narrow that down to the guys that lead their team to 2 national titles, then narrow that down to the guys who do get drafted, then narrow that down to the guys that get signed, then narrow that down to the guys that get to play, then narrow that down to the guys that get to start, then narrow that down to the guys that last a year, then narrow that down to the guys that get to lead an NFL offense, then narrow that down to guys that last into their 2nd year, then narrow that down to the guys that win some NFL games over all the negative prognostications of those who couldn't carry his jock strap, and I'd say he has overcome some pretty stiff odds! (And, I have a feeling I'm missing a whole bunch of stuff.)

[Just picked this up from Wikipedia...

2× SEC Championship (2006, 2008)
2× BCS National Championship (2007, 2009)
2× First-team All-American (2007, 2008)
1× Second-team All-American (2009)
3× First-team All-SEC (2007, 2008, 2009)
AP Player of the Year (2007)
Davey O'Brien Award (2007)
2× Maxwell Award (2007, 2008)
Heisman Trophy (2007)
NCAA QB of the Year (2007)
Manning Award (2008)
William V. Campbell Trophy (2009)]

...what was I thinking? Anybody could do that! No odds to overcome here!


Just having some fun. It would just bless my heart to have Tim emerge as a stellar QB in the NFL, just because of opinions like yours. Not saying it will happen, but I'm just pulling for the guy because it would silence the pipsqueek know-it-alls who probably don't.

To show you how pathetic I am...I am a Seahawks fan. Every year I say this stuff about them like I'm trying to say about Tebow. They break my heart EVERY year!

Friend,

Wes

[David Morris]

Tebow hasn't actually defied any odds, or opinions. Not one.

To say he has, because he has "won" ignores the reality of why his team is winning, and it's not much to do with him. I offer this post on a sports forum for your consideration: http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums...&postcount=114

Tebow is woeful at getting first downs, converting 3rd downs, keeping drives alive, keeping his defense off the field, and scoring points. You know... everything you need out of an offense.

His defense has won those games with their stingy play, and it's largely a product of the simple fact that the defense has played much lesser offenses and worse overall teams.

Tebow's lack of turnovers has simply been a help, but that's not really a large factor and it is largely attributable to his coaching staff not allowing him to throw the ball much given his 45% completion percentage which is bound to turn into interceptions and turnovers. A one-dimensional offense only scoring 18 points per game is bound to start losing - and losing a lot.

Simply something someone would say who is trying to prove a point. You can't ignore that Tebow has done a remarkable job holding onto the ball and avoiding turnovers. The only times turnovers are not a large factor is when the person you are being overly critical of does a good job at avoiding turnovers.

Tebow has not defied one single odd or opinion yet. In fact, he's largely proven them true. Every game he wins sets this Denver franchise back.

Process over results thinking is what leads to success in the long-term. Results-oriented thinking is short-sided and leads to long-term failure. The very fact is that if Tebow doesn't learn to throw a football he will be done quarterbacking by week 8 of next season.

And if that's the case, he will have started 19 more games in the NFL than guys who sit behind computers to criticize the guys success. Seriously: "if he learns to throw a football"? That is simply an ignorant statement to describe a guy who won the Heisman trophy. It's one thing to say that his skill set doesn't match that of other elite NFL QB's and that he will need to better adapt to NFL style defenses. It's a totally different thing to say "he can't throw a football." Send me this guys e-mail so I can apologize to him for wasting 2 minutes reading his post. So if Tebow lasts 8 weeks or 8 years, just sit back and enjoy it.

[Benjamin Burch]

Simply something someone would say who is trying to prove a point. You can't ignore that Tebow has done a remarkable job holding onto the ball and avoiding turnovers. The only times turnovers are not a large factor is when the person you are being overly critical of does a good job at avoiding turnovers.

When you are completing 45% of your passes, it's not good ball management that has avoided turnovers, it is quite a bit of good luck. When you are that inaccurate, you're bound to throw interceptions. That is why they are not letting him throw the football.

And if that's the case, he will have started 19 more games in the NFL than guys who sit behind computers to criticize the guys success. Seriously: "if he learns to throw a football"? That is simply an ignorant statement to describe a guy who won the Heisman trophy. It's one thing to say that his skill set doesn't match that of other elite NFL QB's and that he will need to better adapt to NFL style defenses. It's a totally different thing to say "he can't throw a football." Send me this guys e-mail so I can apologize to him for wasting 2 minutes reading his post. So if Tebow lasts 8 weeks or 8 years, just sit back and enjoy it.

He doesn't know how to throw a football well enough to QB in the NFL. A non-repeatable throwing motion which leads to 45% completion rate is not "knowing how to throw a football." One doesn't need to be in the NFL to know that.

I would enjoy it a lot if people weren't continually saying things which are simply and obviously not true about the guy, such as, "He wins" or, "he's a winner."

If people would stop talking, I wouldn't mind not talking. But as long as people get to say nonsense about how great he is, or how much he wins, why is it wrong for others to point out that it's not true?

There is a double standard at work, and it's true with every Tebow-maniac I've ever met. You can praise the guy, love the guy, adore the guy, and talk about the guy all day long, but if you're criticizing him you need to "stop and just enjoy". What?

[Benjamin Burch]

Wow, Brother Ben,

You speak with such great authority here. Where do you get such great wisdom? When I was a kid, we had a "crazy 8 ball" that we could ask questions! Did you get ahold of one of those?

So let's take all the guys playing College football, narrow that down to all the guys playing on Division 1 teams, then narrow that down to guys that start for Division 1 teams, then narrow that down to the guys who ever get mentioned in any conversation about excellence, then narrow that down to all the guys who hope to be drafted into the NFL, then narrow that down to the guys that play in a bowl game, then narrow that down to the guys that lead a team to a national title, then narrow that down to the guys that lead their team to 2 national titles, then narrow that down to the guys who do get drafted, then narrow that down to the guys that get signed, then narrow that down to the guys that get to play, then narrow that down to the guys that get to start, then narrow that down to the guys that last a year, then narrow that down to the guys that get to lead an NFL offense, then narrow that down to guys that last into their 2nd year, then narrow that down to the guys that win some NFL games over all the negative prognostications of those who couldn't carry his jock strap, and I'd say he has overcome some pretty stiff odds! (And, I have a feeling I'm missing a whole bunch of stuff.)

[Just picked this up from Wikipedia...

2× SEC Championship (2006, 2008)
2× BCS National Championship (2007, 2009)
2× First-team All-American (2007, 2008)
1× Second-team All-American (2009)
3× First-team All-SEC (2007, 2008, 2009)
AP Player of the Year (2007)
Davey O'Brien Award (2007)
2× Maxwell Award (2007, 2008)
Heisman Trophy (2007)
NCAA QB of the Year (2007)
Manning Award (2008)
William V. Campbell Trophy (2009)]

...what was I thinking? Anybody could do that! No odds to overcome here!


Just having some fun. It would just bless my heart to have Tim emerge as a stellar QB in the NFL, just because of opinions like yours. Not saying it will happen, but I'm just pulling for the guy because it would silence the pipsqueek know-it-alls who probably don't.

To show you how pathetic I am...I am a Seahawks fan. Every year I say this stuff about them like I'm trying to say about Tebow. They break my heart EVERY year!

Friend,

Wes

I dont think I ever said anything about his college achievements, or that he hasn't overcome odds or adversity ever. I said that as far as NFL critics and criticisms go, he hasn't defied any. Those are two 100% different statements.

I would love for him to succeed. But not to spite people who are right about his deficiencies and how poorly he has played so far. Instead, I would like him to succeed for his own merit, because he's a great guy.

Even if he succeeds, it won't mean that he was playing well while completing 45% of his passes and orchestrating a whopping 18 points a game. That's not a winning formula. It isn't magically going to become a winning formula.

[Benjamin Burch]

David and Wes,

Call me when a 45% completion rate, 18 points a game, 17 1st downs per game, and a 26% 3rd down conversion rate = good football.

It's terrible, but people would rather give Tebow credit than talk about the defense and his deficiencies. Somehow Elway is a bad guy for saying they don't have a franchise QB because of these obvious problems.

[Benjamin Burch]

Just having some fun. It would just bless my heart to have Tim emerge as a stellar QB in the NFL, just because of opinions like yours. Not saying it will happen, but I'm just pulling for the guy because it would silence the pipsqueek know-it-alls who probably don't.

To show you how pathetic I am...I am a Seahawks fan. Every year I say this stuff about them like I'm trying to say about Tebow. They break my heart EVERY year!

Friend,

Wes

I didn't realize I'd insulted you or offended you so strongly. My bad.

[Wes Smith]

I didn't realize I'd insulted you or offended you so strongly. My bad.

Good grief. Look at the first sentence of the paragraph. And then look at the next paragraph. There was not a hint of insult or offense in your post. Its locker room talk, bro.

Again, just having some fun. I'd think a guy with the strong opinions in the earlier post could do better than this! Ha!

Come on!

Friend,

Wes

[Wes Smith]

I dont think I ever said anything about his college achievements, or that he hasn't overcome odds or adversity ever. I said that as far as NFL critics and criticisms go, he hasn't defied any. Those are two 100% different statements.

I would love for him to succeed. But not to spite people who are right about his deficiencies and how poorly he has played so far. Instead, I would like him to succeed for his own merit, because he's a great guy.

Even if he succeeds, it won't mean that he was playing well while completing 45% of his passes and orchestrating a whopping 18 points a game. That's not a winning formula. It isn't magically going to become a winning formula.

I misunderstood. Earlier I thought you were writing his obituary. Maybe it would be better to just say he's really sick with a slight chance of getting better.

Let's remember, he's a sophomore with a tiger intensity to succeed. You may be right. All I'm saying is that I HOPE he proves the naysayers wrong!

Friend,

Wes

[Wes Smith]

It would probably be good for me to file a disclaimer here. I haven't seen Tebow take one snap as an NFL quarterback. All of my opinions are total bloviation...rootin' for him cause I would love to see him succeed. He won me over in his College days when he put "John 3:16" as the shadow under his eyes and when I read about his work with missions and when I read and heard his unswerving commitment to Jesus and the commercial he and his mother put together for the pro-life cause. As far as Im concerned he could be pulled this week and I would still label him a winner. But, I hope he makes it, even big time, because I think he helps our cause. Pulling for him like crazy, you bet!

Friend,

Wes

[David Morris]

David and Wes,

Call me when a 45% completion rate, 18 points a game, 17 1st downs per game, and a 26% 3rd down conversion rate = good football.

It's terrible, but people would rather give Tebow credit than talk about the defense and his deficiencies. Somehow Elway is a bad guy for saying they don't have a franchise QB because of these obvious problems.

First Downs Per Game
2011 Broncos: 17.8
2000 Ravens: 18

Completion %
2011 Tim Tebow: 44.8% (Started 5 Games)
2011 Trent Dilfer: 59.3% (Started 8 Games)

Offensive PPG
2011 Broncos: 20.5
2000 Ravens: 20.8

3rd Down Conversion %
2011 Broncos: 26%
2000 Ravens: 40%

Let me go ahead and state the obvious: the Ravens had an INCREDIBLE defense in 2000. The 2011 Broncos defense is nowhere close to the Ravens 2000 defense. They allowed 10 pts. per game while the Broncos of 2011 are allowing close to 24.

With that being said, the Ravens had two pretty lame quarterbacks: Tony Banks and Trent Dilfer. Their offensive numbers (of the stats you asked for) are not lightyears ahead of the 2011 Broncos. Tim Tebow (through 5 games) has a better QB rating than Banks or Dilfer had. I'd call if I could, but the Ravens with pretty mediocre quarterbacks and a fairly lame offense WON THE SUPERBOWL. Yes, it was the defense that won the Superbowl...but you aren't going to get there if you don't have a QB who can play just good enough football to keep winning.

This is where I'm at with Tim Tebow. I'll agree with you Ben, his current level of play is not sustainable to be a long term starter at QB in the NFL. There are some obvious flaws and areas that need major improvement. With that being said, as bad as people say Tebow is, the Broncos haven't lost because of him on a continual basis. He is 4-1 (yes, I get we are only 5 games into his career), with his lone loss (at this point) coming from a blow-out loss to the Lions. If Tebow can improve his passing just a bit, and continue to make plays with his feet, he is a player that a team with a well built defense can use.

I would enjoy it a lot if people weren't continually saying things which are simply and obviously not true about the guy, such as, "He wins" or, "he's a winner."

His winning is ugly, thats why people have problems with other people saying "he's a winner."

[Benjamin Burch]

First Downs Per Game
2011 Broncos: 17.8
2000 Ravens: 18

Completion %
2011 Tim Tebow: 44.8% (Started 5 Games)
2011 Trent Dilfer: 59.3% (Started 8 Games)

Offensive PPG
2011 Broncos: 20.5
2000 Ravens: 20.8

3rd Down Conversion %
2011 Broncos: 26%
2000 Ravens: 40%

Let me go ahead and state the obvious: the Ravens had an INCREDIBLE defense in 2000. The 2011 Broncos defense is nowhere close to the Ravens 2000 defense. They allowed 10 pts. per game while the Broncos of 2011 are allowing close to 24.

With that being said, the Ravens had two pretty lame quarterbacks: Tony Banks and Trent Dilfer. Their offensive numbers (of the stats you asked for) are not lightyears ahead of the 2011 Broncos. Tim Tebow (through 5 games) has a better QB rating than Banks or Dilfer had. I'd call if I could, but the Ravens with pretty mediocre quarterbacks and a fairly lame offense WON THE SUPERBOWL. Yes, it was the defense that won the Superbowl...but you aren't going to get there if you don't have a QB who can play just good enough football to keep winning.

This is where I'm at with Tim Tebow. I'll agree with you Ben, his current level of play is not sustainable to be a long term starter at QB in the NFL. There are some obvious flaws and areas that need major improvement. With that being said, as bad as people say Tebow is, the Broncos haven't lost because of him on a continual basis. He is 4-1 (yes, I get we are only 5 games into his career), with his lone loss (at this point) coming from a blow-out loss to the Lions. If Tebow can improve his passing just a bit, and continue to make plays with his feet, he is a player that a team with a well built defense can use.



His winning is ugly, thats why people have problems with other people saying "he's a winner."

Dilfer's completion percentage as well as their 3rd down conversion percentage were in fact "light years" ahead. 14.5% would make Tony Romo an 80% passer. That's not lightyears? It is in football terms. 15% is a quarter of what the average QB is throwing. Dilfer was 25% of the average passer better than Tebow, before the institution of the Manning and Brady rules. That's lightyears.

Likewise, the Ravens were not winning because of their offense. They were, in many ways, winning in spite of it. Their defense was so good that they only needed to score 11 points a game to win. No one said "Trent Dilfer does it ugly, but he's a winner." Not even close. Instead, people put the credit where it belonged - on Ray Lewis, Tony Siragusa, and that defense.

In this situation, people would rather put the credit on Tebow and it's annoying, irresponsible, and flat wrong.

It's not his winning. That's what people don't like. It's not his. It's the team, and in many ways in spite of him. People are sick of Tebow getting credit he doesn't deserve.

[Benjamin Burch]

It would probably be good for me to file a disclaimer here. I haven't seen Tebow take one snap as an NFL quarterback. All of my opinions are total bloviation...rootin' for him cause I would love to see him succeed. He won me over in his College days when he put "John 3:16" as the shadow under his eyes and when I read about his work with missions and when I read and heard his unswerving commitment to Jesus and the commercial he and his mother put together for the pro-life cause. As far as Im concerned he could be pulled this week and I would still label him a winner. But, I hope he makes it, even big time, because I think he helps our cause. Pulling for him like crazy, you bet!

Friend,

Wes

But why is Tebow the only player that gets this sort of adoration? Dwyane Wade wears #3 in honor of the holy trinity, and does tons and tons of charity work in the Miami-Dade County area. Why is there no Christian cult of fanboys following him around and cheering for him?

It's all irrational and it bothers me.

[David Morris]

But why is Tebow the only player that gets this sort of adoration? Dwyane Wade wears #3 in honor of the holy trinity, and does tons and tons of charity work in the Miami-Dade County area. Why is there no Christian cult of fanboys following him around and cheering for him?

It's all irrational and it bothers me.

I think Tebow is much more public about his faith than Wade is, and it was well documented throughout his college career.

Interesting to note your comparing the amount of adoration received by Tim Tebow to your favorite player from your favorite team. It isn't irrational at all...people adore Tim Tebow because he is a person, not so much player, that you can adore. In two years, it won't be anywhere near the same.

I remember an interview with Dwight Howard after he was drafted from a private Christian school as the #1 pick of the NBA draft. He stated that one of his career goals was for the NBA logo to feature the cross, and that his goal was to "get people saved." I don't recall the same level of adoration for him as Tebow has received.

[Benjamin Burch]

I think Tebow is much more public about his faith than Wade is, and it was well documented throughout his college career.

Interesting to note your comparing the amount of adoration received by Tim Tebow to your favorite player from your favorite team. It isn't irrational at all...people adore Tim Tebow because he is a person, not so much player, that you can adore. In two years, it won't be anywhere near the same.

I remember an interview with Dwight Howard after he was drafted from a private Christian school as the #1 pick of the NBA draft. He stated that one of his career goals was for the NBA logo to feature the cross, and that his goal was to "get people saved." I don't recall the same level of adoration for him as Tebow has received.

I chose Dwyane Wade because his wearing of the #3 is the only thing worn by a Christian which I can think of which compares to Tebow's eye-black. Likewise, I didn't simply choose Wade because he's my favorite player. Instead, I chose Wade because I know that information, and like I said, I cannot think of another Christian who wears an expression of their faith on their uniform as such.

Likewise, your point about Howard actually proves my point. Tons, and tons, and tons of Christians adore Tebow because of his faith - even though that never happened for Howard. Why for Tebow?

I have my opinions...

[Benjamin Burch]

And if that's the case, he will have started 19 more games in the NFL than guys who sit behind computers to criticize the guys success.

I find this strange, also. Why is Tebow untouchable? Why is it so bad to criticize him? People analyze and criticize everyone else, and always have. WHy is it suddenly a problem with Tebow?

Also, your statement itself is rather meaningless. He has already started more games than I have in the NFL, is already 1,000x the QB I could ever dream of being, and has already had infinitely more NFL success than I ever will.

None of that makes any of my criticisms invalid, or wrong. None of that makes him a good QB. None of that means he's going to be a good QB. None of that means that 19 games will go down as a "success" at QBing in the NFL.

[David Morris]

I chose Dwyane Wade because his wearing of the #3 is the only thing worn by a Christian which I can think of which compares to Tebow's eye-black. Likewise, I didn't simply choose Wade because he's my favorite player. Instead, I chose Wade because I know that information, and like I said, I cannot think of another Christian who wears an expression of their faith on their uniform as such.

Likewise, your point about Howard actually proves my point. Tons, and tons, and tons of Christians adore Tebow because of his faith - even though that never happened for Howard. Why for Tebow?

Dwight Howard went straight from high school to the professional ranks. He skipped the entire college scene, and there is a major difference between the way college players and professional players are marketed and endorsed. Tebow has always been a feel good story, and the images of him laying all of his emotions out after a loss and willing his team to a national championship, along with winning the Heisman, only fuel it. Howard has never had that.

What we are witnessing right now with Tebow isn't anything new...its actually been going on for a few years, and people are looking at it in a different light now that he is a professional quarterback. We've heard for years about his missions work, missionary parents, decision to choose abstinence before marriage, and how public he is about his faith. Dwight Howard was not in the public spotlight prior to entering the NBA. Unfortunately for Howard, a child out of wedlock and ongoing child custody issues have tarnished the reputation of his faith.

I have my opinions...

....?

[David Morris]

I find this strange, also. Why is Tebow untouchable? Why is it so bad to criticize him? People analyze and criticize everyone else, and always have. WHy is it suddenly a problem with Tebow?

Also, your statement itself is rather meaningless. He has already started more games than I have in the NFL, is already 1,000x the QB I could ever dream of being, and has already had infinitely more NFL success than I ever will.

None of that makes any of my criticisms invalid, or wrong. None of that makes him a good QB. None of that means he's going to be a good QB. None of that means that 19 games will go down as a "success" at QBing in the NFL.

Personally, I think people are jealous of his success. The want to dog him and talk about how dreadful of a QB he is after 5 games, but want to ignore that his teams record with him at the helm is 4-1. Both camps are guilty of being either too critical after 5 games, or being too celebratory after 5 games. He has had a better 5 game start to his career than some hall of fame worthy QB's. Peyton Manning has all the stats in the world..."Well, he didn't win enough Super Bowls. Brady has 3." It will never be enough. Tebow is 4-1..."Yeah, but he sucks." Well, don't know what to tell you. So far he has been the QB for a team that has won 4 of the 5 games he has started.

The Broncos could very likely get destroyed this week, in which case much of the hype will decrease. If they win again....lookout.

[Benjamin Burch]

Personally, I think people are jealous of his success. The want to dog him and talk about how dreadful of a QB he is after 5 games, but want to ignore that his teams record with him at the helm is 4-1. Both camps are guilty of being either too critical after 5 games, or being too celebratory after 5 games. He has had a better 5 game start to his career than some hall of fame worthy QB's. Peyton Manning has all the stats in the world..."Well, he didn't win enough Super Bowls. Brady has 3." It will never be enough. Tebow is 4-1..."Yeah, but he sucks." Well, don't know what to tell you. So far he has been the QB for a team that has won 4 of the 5 games he has started.

The Broncos could very likely get destroyed this week, in which case much of the hype will decrease. If they win again....lookout.

No. Just no. So much no. No one is jealous. Why would they be jealous of him, but not of many far more successful people? For what reason would people be jealous of him but not of Cam Newton? It's nonsense. Are people jealous of other players when they speak candidly about their weaknesses and deficiencies? Or only Tebow?

No one cares about Tebow in a negative sense, they just want to talk seriously and realistiically about sports, and tehrefore react to all the absurd Tebowmaniacs. The Tebowmaniacs have ruined the NFL this year, and made it a mockery. Then, when people try to temper things and bring it back and discuss him seriously and critically... they're jealous? It makes no sense.

And no, Tebow has not had a better start than any HoF I can think of. Wins are not an individual achievement.

Lastly, again, you can't just throw around wins without the context. Tebow has been poor, and his team is winning games in spite of his poor play. But, by all means, keep giving Tebow all the credit.

SMH.

[Benjamin Burch]

Dwight Howard went straight from high school to the professional ranks. He skipped the entire college scene, and there is a major difference between the way college players and professional players are marketed and endorsed. Tebow has always been a feel good story, and the images of him laying all of his emotions out after a loss and willing his team to a national championship, along with winning the Heisman, only fuel it. Howard has never had that.

What we are witnessing right now with Tebow isn't anything new...its actually been going on for a few years, and people are looking at it in a different light now that he is a professional quarterback. We've heard for years about his missions work, missionary parents, decision to choose abstinence before marriage, and how public he is about his faith. Dwight Howard was not in the public spotlight prior to entering the NBA. Unfortunately for Howard, a child out of wedlock and ongoing child custody issues have tarnished the reputation of his faith.




....?

Tebow is white, Howard is black. Tebow is the quintessential white, southern, evangelical Christian who is over-the-top public about his faith in ways that normal people aren't. He's awkward about it.

White evangelical culture in America eats it up. That's why it's happening with him in ways it has never happened with anyone else. He's white. He's evangelical. He's everything they love.

[Shea Zellweger]

Personally, I think people are jealous of his success. The want to dog him and talk about how dreadful of a QB he is after 5 games, but want to ignore that his teams record with him at the helm is 4-1. Both camps are guilty of being either too critical after 5 games, or being too celebratory after 5 games. He has had a better 5 game start to his career than some hall of fame worthy QB's. Peyton Manning has all the stats in the world..."Well, he didn't win enough Super Bowls. Brady has 3." It will never be enough. Tebow is 4-1..."Yeah, but he sucks." Well, don't know what to tell you. So far he has been the QB for a team that has won 4 of the 5 games he has started.

The Broncos could very likely get destroyed this week, in which case much of the hype will decrease. If they win again....lookout.

If Tebow were putting up even marginally positive stats- let's say a 55% completion rate, and 24 ppg- and his team were losing, I'd be the first one saying "hey, his delivery is unorthodox, but it's working for him so far." But that's not what's going on. "Wins" are not a stat which is reserved for QBs. Wins are awarded to whomever actually makes the win happen. When Vince Young took the field Sunday night, he wasn't responsible for a win with his 2 TD 3 INT game (even though he completed 60% of his passes), nor was the Eagles' offense responsible for it with their combined 17 points. That win goes to the defense, who held the Giants to 10 points. When Cleveland beat Jacksonville that same day, credit was not heaped on Colt McCoy for his 199 yards and 70% completion rate. These are all stats from week 11. Young and McCoy both had better completion rates, better passer ratings, more passing yards, more total yards, better 3rd-down efficiency... in short, their individual performances were universally better than those of Tebow. But Philadelphia will be more than happy to have Mike Vick back, because Young's performance only solidified the fact that he is a backup quarterback, and everyone in Cleveland knows they owe credit to the defense for stopping Jacksonville at the 1 on the final drive (and McCoy actually IS their franchise QB).

Two QBs with comparable games, the only difference being that they played better than Tebow last week, yet one is headed back to the bench ASAP, and the other is in need of some rapid improvement. Meanwhile hundreds, maybe thousands, of Tebow fans are resting on the fact that his team won as proof that he is individually successful. It just doesn't work that way.

[David Morris]

No. Just no. So much no. No one is jealous. Why would they be jealous of him, but not of many far more successful people? For what reason would people be jealous of him but not of Cam Newton? It's nonsense. Are people jealous of other players when they speak candidly about their weaknesses and deficiencies? Or only Tebow?

No one cares about Tebow in a negative sense, they just want to talk seriously and realistiically about sports, and tehrefore react to all the absurd Tebowmaniacs. The Tebowmaniacs have ruined the NFL this year, and made it a mockery. Then, when people try to temper things and bring it back and discuss him seriously and critically... they're jealous? It makes no sense.

And no, Tebow has not had a better start than any HoF I can think of. Wins are not an individual achievement.

Lastly, again, you can't just throw around wins without the context. Tebow has been poor, and his team is winning games in spite of his poor play. But, by all means, keep giving Tebow all the credit.

SMH.

So should I assume you've quit watching games, since the NFL has been ruined? I find it hard to believe that one player can do that for you.

Interesting to me that

If Tebow were putting up even marginally positive stats- let's say a 55% completion rate, and 24 ppg- and his team were losing, I'd be the first one saying "hey, his delivery is unorthodox, but it's working for him so far." But that's not what's going on. "Wins" are not a stat which is reserved for QBs. Wins are awarded to whomever actually makes the win happen. When Vince Young took the field Sunday night, he wasn't responsible for a win with his 2 TD 3 INT game (even though he completed 60% of his passes), nor was the Eagles' offense responsible for it with their combined 17 points. That win goes to the defense, who held the Giants to 10 points. When Cleveland beat Jacksonville that same day, credit was not heaped on Colt McCoy for his 199 yards and 70% completion rate. These are all stats from week 11. Young and McCoy both had better completion rates, better passer ratings, more passing yards, more total yards, better 3rd-down efficiency... in short, their individual performances were universally better than those of Tebow. But Philadelphia will be more than happy to have Mike Vick back, because Young's performance only solidified the fact that he is a backup quarterback, and everyone in Cleveland knows they owe credit to the defense for stopping Jacksonville at the 1 on the final drive (and McCoy actually IS their franchise QB).

Two QBs with comparable games, the only difference being that they played better than Tebow last week, yet one is headed back to the bench ASAP, and the other is in need of some rapid improvement. Meanwhile hundreds, maybe thousands, of Tebow fans are resting on the fact that his team won as proof that he is individually successful. It just doesn't work that way.

I guess I need to have this question answered, and I asking it assuming the answer will be purely opinionated: At what point do the statistics measure whether or not the QB won the game? Or that the team won in spite of him? Or that it really is a team game and the team won?

If Tebow goes 9 for 12 for 134 yards and 1 TD and no turnovers, and the team wins 10-7, did the defense win the game? Did the team win in spite of his play? Is it possible that Tebow doesn't need to have the statistics to make his team better? Perhaps he energizes his teammates around him. I just want to know at what point, in your opinion, does the QB get credit for winning the game versus the defense winning the game?

[David Morris]

Dilfer's completion percentage as well as their 3rd down conversion percentage were in fact "light years" ahead. 14.5% would make Tony Romo an 80% passer. That's not lightyears? It is in football terms. 15% is a quarter of what the average QB is throwing. Dilfer was 25% of the average passer better than Tebow, before the institution of the Manning and Brady rules. That's lightyears.

Likewise, the Ravens were not winning because of their offense. They were, in many ways, winning in spite of it. Their defense was so good that they only needed to score 11 points a game to win. No one said "Trent Dilfer does it ugly, but he's a winner." Not even close. Instead, people put the credit where it belonged - on Ray Lewis, Tony Siragusa, and that defense.

In this situation, people would rather put the credit on Tebow and it's annoying, irresponsible, and flat wrong.

It's not his winning. That's what people don't like. It's not his. It's the team, and in many ways in spite of him. People are sick of Tebow getting credit he doesn't deserve.

This is what confuses me. Why are we so quick to give credit or cast blame onto one individual for a teams successes and failures?

This has been the huge knock on Peyton Manning. "He can't win big games!" "He chokes under pressure!" "He sucks, Brady rules!" Peyton could complete 65% of his passes, throw for 300 yards and 2 TD's, and throw one interception, and it will be his fault that they lost. Why? I really don't know, but I'm going to guess that it's because he is the face of the franchise. It is all on his shoulders. He is the QB, the guy in all the commercials, and the team captain.

Same with Tim Tebow. He is the face of the franchise. So when they win, he gets the credit. When they lose, it will be his head on a platter.

[Shea Zellweger]

I guess I need to have this question answered, and I asking it assuming the answer will be purely opinionated: At what point do the statistics measure whether or not the QB won the game? Or that the team won in spite of him? Or that it really is a team game and the team won?

I think we all talk about this on two levels. It really is a team game, and the team wins and loses as a team. At the same time, individuals can have a positive or negative impact on the game. If the defense gives up 35 points on 5 possessions, but the QB manages to throw for 500 yards, toss 5 TDs to 5 different receivers, and run for one more, then clearly the defense didn't help much, and the QB had the most influence on the win. This is obviously an extreme example. There are advanced statistics which measure things in the more mundane scenarios- things like VORP. But even those don't necessarily tell the whole story. There are great QBs, and there are great game managers who play QB. which brings us to...

If Tebow goes 9 for 12 for 134 yards and 1 TD and no turnovers, and the team wins 10-7, did the defense win the game? Did the team win in spite of his play? Is it possible that Tebow doesn't need to have the statistics to make his team better? Perhaps he energizes his teammates around him. I just want to know at what point, in your opinion, does the QB get credit for winning the game versus the defense winning the game?

If Tebow goes 9 for 12 with for 134 yards and 1 TD, he didn't do anything to hurt the team. You might describe him as a good game manager in that situation, but he still doesn't qualify as a great QB any more than Trent Dilfer. So far though, the statistics suggest he's more likely to go 5 for 12 than 9 for 12, and then if there are still no turnovers, it's not thanks to Tebow's great play or accuracy. Additionally, any time a defense holds its opponents to 7 points or less, that defense deserves a TON of credit, regardless of what the offense does.

As a general rule, a team that doesn't score at least 3 TD/game is going to be a losing team without a great defense. Currently, 22 of 32 teams are averaging over 21 ppg, and the 10 who are not are all below .500. Minnesota, Tennesee, and Denver are all between 20 and 21 ppg, one team has a losing record and the other two are at .500. Pittsburgh has the lowest ppg average of teams with playoff aspirations, and they've got a top 5 defense. Long story short, winning without scoring well requires a good defense, and winning without scoring well certainly doesn't reflect well on any offensive player, but particularly not the QB, who is responsible for running the offense.

[Shea Zellweger]

This is what confuses me. Why are we so quick to give credit or cast blame onto one individual for a teams successes and failures?

This has been the huge knock on Peyton Manning. "He can't win big games!" "He chokes under pressure!" "He sucks, Brady rules!" Peyton could complete 65% of his passes, throw for 300 yards and 2 TD's, and throw one interception, and it will be his fault that they lost. Why? I really don't know, but I'm going to guess that it's because he is the face of the franchise. It is all on his shoulders. He is the QB, the guy in all the commercials, and the team captain.

Same with Tim Tebow. He is the face of the franchise. So when they win, he gets the credit. When they lose, it will be his head on a platter.

Dave, you're talking to two people who have consistently agreed with you that Manning is better than Brady. Might wanna keep that in mind. IMO, the very rationale which allows people to say Manning is better than Brady is one which says the Broncos could win it all this year, and Tebow still would not deserve the credit.