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There's nothing like economic hardship to help us see how much we have in common with the other miscellaneous holiness tribes.Originally Posted by Scott Sherwood
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us wthout end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
- C.S. LewisPost Thanks / Like - 0 Thanks, 1 LaughingDavid Graham - thanks for this funny post
Sounds like a good idea to me.
Fear not those who argue but those who dodge. -- Marie von Ebner-EschenbachPost Thanks / Like - 2 Thanks, 0 Laughing
Me too. When we talked about the changing relationship between the Nazarenes and the Wesleyans one of the things that came up was the acceptance of one another's clergy. I see that that is in it.
Post Thanks / Like - 1 Thanks, 0 LaughingJim Chabot - "thanks" for this post
I'm glad to see this coming to fruition. With the demise of the National Campmeeting Association, the independent holiness camps have been without an actual group to select evangelists from. Many campmeetings still reference the old association in their bylaws and chose from the original member denominations even though the association ceased to exist as an actual entity seven or eight years back.
If I remember correctly the keepers of the organization at the end were the Churches of Christ in Christian Union, glad to see that they will still be with us. It would be nice to see the Salvation Army and C&MA join as well.
I am also glad to see the CoTN is maintaining an interest in cooperative efforts with other holiness denominations, it helps to anchor holiness as our primary distinctive.
-Jim
To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.
Garrison Keillor
I'd like to know how this sharing of clergy thing works.
I'm also wondering how our denomination will choose to go about the ratification process, since the first official assembly is several months before our next GA.
It seems to me the cooperation in itself is nothing the GA would have to vote on. Specific issues that might influence the Manual, like automatic recognition of credentials, obviously will have to be processed by the GA. We may expect some of these to come out of this first meeting at the end of 2012.
"No scripture can mean that God is not love, or that his mercy is not over all his works" (John Wesley - Free Grace, 26)Post Thanks / Like - 1 Thanks, 0 Laughing
The recognition of credentials? Does that imply that once one of these organizations ordains someone, they would have the ability to cross denominational lines to pastor a church of a different denomination than the one in which they were ordained? Presently, that can be done by working with the district credentials boards, but it now often means taking additional course work to meet the academic requirements. It is interesting to remember that there is currently a sentiment in Nazarene circles that ordination should not be so heavily weighted on academic work, but on affirmation of gifts and graces (some sort of effectiveness). In Nazarenedom, it is pretty easy to transfer from one district to another, without any such investigation, and we do know that each district process can vary considerably. In fact, the process can vary on each specific district decade to decade, DS to DS, and sometimes candidate to candidate. We will wait patiently to see what they have in mind.
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This would be the first step towards a more formal merger. I'm not sure some of the smaller groups care much for our liberal Nazarene leanings, but talking together is a great thing!
...just my $.02.
Global Wesleyan Alliance. I'm pleasantly surprised that some of the groups mentioned are willing to use that name. Like Jim Chabot, it would be neat to see the Salvation Army - as it exists in some parts of the world - associate, too. And some C&MA churches I would think would be open to it, but they have a remarkable Alliance already.
The article says leaders from 11 faith communions met but then only lists 10 specifically in the final paragraph. Wondering which might be the 11th group.
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The Bavarian Illuminati, of course.
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Is this the 1928 Bavarian Illuminati Communion or the 1878 Communion of Bavarian Illuminati?
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I thought it was the "Chocolate" variety....
Do you see the Fnords too?
Its about time.
Mmmmmm...................Bavarian Creme................I thought it was the "Chocolate" variety....
Wait a minute. Bavarian Creme are most definitely not holiness donuts! Old fashioned are holiness donuts. Good old plain donuts with holes in them. While Bavarian creme may be tempting they are worldly and have been known to cause weight gain when consumed in ecstatically delicious and copious quantities.
Mmmmmmmmmmm............Bavaria..........
-Jim
To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.
Garrison KeillorPost Thanks / Like - 0 Thanks, 1 Laughing
There was a resolution at the last General Assembly instructing the Board of General Supeintendents to seek such cooperation. Any "ratification" will be merely be accepting the report that the instructions have been followed.
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I'm curious as to what the combined membership of the eleven groups is. I know the Church of God, Anderson does not have formal membership, but I assume they have some way of tallying those associated with their churches. My mother was raised in this denomination, and I remember it being a really big deal that they did not have members.
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They don't technically have member congregations either, right? I know one church near us in KC advertised they were "affiliated with the Church of God Anderson, but there is no control."
...just my $.02.Post Thanks / Like - 1 Thanks, 0 Laughing
I guess that almost reads as "no accountability". Perhaps I am mistaken.
Do people associated with the Church of God, Anderson, consider themselves Wesleyan?
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I hear that they have a couple of very prominent adherents (since they don't have "members") who hail from nearby Alexandria, that would consider themselves very Wesleyan. In fact one of them, I regard as one our best theologians!
Their statement of faith reads as being very Wesleyan. A while back we had a thread where we postulated where we would go should the CoTN cease to exist. My choices were Church of God Anderson and Wesleyan in that order.
My guess is that their reticence to formal membership may stem from Davids numbering of his army. Numbering indicates possession, and if we attribute God as the rightful possessor, then we cannot number anyone as "ours." Or at least that is part of the rationale behind the C&MA's strict prohibition against taking pledges. I realize that this may be a bit convoluted, but I can understand and highly respect the principle behind these sort of things.
I'm not sure how they handle the accountability issue. Perhaps "affiliation" equates to "affirmation"?
-Jim
To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.
Garrison KeillorPost Thanks / Like - 1 Thanks, 0 Laughing
I know they maintain a very strong association through their annual campmeeting which draws some 25,000 a year and Anderson University. I don't know anything about their polity. If I recall correctly, each church does keep a list of those to whom they have extended what they call "the right hand of fellowship."
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Chuckle of the day. We have a list of people who we have extended the right hand of fellowship but we don't have membership. Me think's this is distinction without difference.
Fear not those who argue but those who dodge. -- Marie von Ebner-EschenbachPost Thanks / Like - 0 Thanks, 4 Laughing
Kind of like, we believe in entire sanctification but we're not sinless.
"No scripture can mean that God is not love, or that his mercy is not over all his works" (John Wesley - Free Grace, 26)Post Thanks / Like - 0 Thanks, 2 Laughing
Here's a document from them on church membership: http://www.chog.org/sites/default/fi...Membership.PDF
Here's their official "membership" numbers: http://www.chog.org/how-big-church-god
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Actually I like that they understand their size based on attendance rather than membership. If we did that we we probably have to greatly reduce our perception of how big we are in the US. Some churches membership is triple average attendance.
I also think they are largely right on the issue of "church" membership but might quibble about how we are using the word church. Locally I use the language of being a member of the Marysville Naz family and being a member of the church. Everyone who considers Marysville Naz their home is a member of our church family. To be a member of the church you have to take a class and sign a covenant.
I just think it funny that they would keep a list. Entirely possible that this is just my strange sense of humor popping up.
Fear not those who argue but those who dodge. -- Marie von Ebner-Eschenbach
Without a membership roll what determines the right of a constituent/attender as to voting on local and regional structure? I remember some of my students at Bethany were from that group and were upset when they attended BFC and the song leader struck up "I'm so glad I'm a Nazarene."
Yes, I have often extended my own right hand of fellowship, but usually in traffic.
When you are the driver, isn't it easier to extend the left hand of fellowship?
BILL
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My wife's always the driver, and I'm just extending it in return to everyone around us.
I'm going to assume you're referring to a friendly, casual wave... not pointing them to their heavenly Lord with the finger that points the farthest.
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I think it's very interesting, and I look forward to seeing what comes of it. In my immediate area, the Church of the Nazarene is a lot stronger than any of those other partners, so I'm not sure what impact it will have locally. But I'm glad we're finding ways to work together!
Maybe it's like the ragtag fleet from Battlestar Galactica...one spaceship that can hold its own, and a bunch of tagalongs.
Or to use a national analogy, it would be like Germany forming a strategic alliance with Estonia, Monaco, Slovakia and Moldova.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us wthout end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
- C.S. Lewis
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