Luke 2:10, "But the angel said to them, “Do not be afraid. I bring you good news that will cause great joy for all the people."
So, was the angel naively optimistic? It seems to me there are, and have been, an awful lot of people for whom the news of Jesus did not cause great joy...
Is there significance to "all the people" or was that just an expression?
(Secondarily, is there a TULIP version that reads, "... good news that will cause great joy for some of the people?")
Wilson
"But by the grace of God I am what I am." (1 Cor. 15:10)Post Thanks / Like - 2 Thanks, 0 Laughing
Wilson I didn't know you were a literalist. You must also believe in a 24/6 creation too.
All God's children are Bible believers - they just believe different parts of it differently.
This doesn't seem to have any universal application, or "hopeful universalism" in it.Originally Posted by Wilson Deaton
The definite article here is telling, and it creates a significant difference from how the text would read without an article.
With definite article:
"all the people"
Without:
"all people"
A definite article indicates that its noun is a particular one (or ones) identifiable to the listener.
The "all people" wouldn't even necessarily be universalistic, considering even exclusivist Arminians believe the birth of Christ is good news to all people, but some choose to believe/accept and others don't.
Anyhow, the Greek reads, παντὶ τῶ λαῶ, that is, "all the people." Which people? Would it be identifiable to the listener?
I think the text rather clearly is presenting the news of the birth of the Messiah as good news, which will be a joy to God's people, Israel. The promised Davidic king has finally come.In those days a decree went out from Emperor Augustus that all the world should be registered. This was the first registration and was taken while Quirinius was governor of Syria. All went to their own towns to be registered. Joseph also went from the town of Nazareth in Galilee to Judea, to the city of David called Bethlehem, because he was descended from the house and family of David. He went to be registered with Mary, to whom he was engaged and who was expecting a child. While they were there, the time came for her to deliver her child. And she gave birth to her firstborn son and wrapped him in bands of cloth, and laid him in a manger, because there was no place for them in the inn.
In that region there were shepherds living in the fields, keeping watch over their flock by night. Then an angel of the Lord stood before them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them, and they were terrified. But the angel said to them, ‘Do not be afraid; for see—I am bringing you good news of great joy for all the people: to you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, who is the Messiah, the Lord. This will be a sign for you: you will find a child wrapped in bands of cloth and lying in a manger.’ And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host, praising God and saying,
‘Glory to God in the highest heaven,
and on earth peace among those whom he favours!’
- Ben
Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death! And to those in the tombs, bestowing life!
Χριστὸς ἀνέστη ἐκ νεκρῶν, θανάτῳ θάνατον πατήσας! καὶ τοῖς ἐν τοῖς μνήμασι, ζωὴν χαρισάμενος!Post Thanks / Like - 4 Thanks, 0 Laughing
And if we only recognized that, we'd come a long way.
"No scripture can mean that God is not love, or that his mercy is not over all his works" (John Wesley - Free Grace, 26)Post Thanks / Like - 3 Thanks, 0 Laughing
Dale, literalists don't ask questions, they just make proclamations. I was asking a question...
Wilson
"But by the grace of God I am what I am." (1 Cor. 15:10)Post Thanks / Like - 2 Thanks, 4 Laughing
Just as the atonement is universal, so too the good news is universal as is the spiritual joy we draw from the well of salvation (Isaiah 12). The gift, the good news, the joy are all universal, ... its up to people to "draw joy from the well of salvation." Some do ... some don't.
Post Thanks / Like - 2 Thanks, 0 Laughing
I don't think "universalism," even in the sense of "naively optimistic," or "just an expression" are the only two options.
One of the governing ideas in Scripture is the belief that God's work in the world through a redeemed people is transformational and redemptive for all humanity. That idea is first expressed in the promise to Abraham, which is more a statement of God's purposes in the world than it is a promise to a specific person. Gen 12: 3: " . . . in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed."
That is not a universalism in the sense of "all will be saved." That is far too reductive to specific theological formulations. Rather it is a confession that God is at work in the world to reconcile all humanity to himself. It is the unfolding of how God responds to human sin that alienates people from each other and God, exemplified in the Eden story, Cain and Abel, and the flood narrative. The idea that God's revelation of himself in the world is for the purpose of "blessing" all people, of reconciling people to God and to each other, is most clearly expressed by Paul in relation to Jesus in 2 Cor 5:18-19. There it is again stated in terms of the entire world.
5:18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation; 5:19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting the message of reconciliation to us.Again, that is not about universalism in the sense that all will be saved or in the sense that it is overly optimistic about human response. Rather it is stated from God's side, an expression of the extent of God's work in the world, a proclamation of God's reconciling grace offered to stubbornly rebellious children, to all humanity. Or to put it another way, it is an understanding of the way God deals with sinful humanity, an expression of unconditional love, proclaiming that the door is always open for the prodigal to return. In that sense it is "good news" that brings "great joy to all people" whether they recognize it or not.
From that perspective, no matter how logical it might be given certain presuppositions or how appealing it might be to some people, it does not allow classical forms of specific predestination. Both Augustine and Calvin (more specifically Bezae) got that part wrong.
Grace and Peace,
Dennis B.
Post Thanks / Like - 8 Thanks, 0 LaughingPaul DeBaufer, Kevin Jackson, Todd Erickson, Rich Schmidt, John Reilly, Jon Bemis, Randy Wise, Wilson Deaton - "thanks" for this post
well, after Dennis' post, the only thing left to say is...
hockeystick!
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