Patriotic Church Services

[Alex Staley]

Well 4th of July is a little over a month away. I must admit I dread the Sunday falling near this holiday.

My coworkers and I had an intense debate about the appropriateness of patriotic (nationalistic) songs in church on the 4th of July weekend.

My own experience has given me a negative attitude toward patriotic showings in church. I find it tragic that members of our church sing more fervently in a song that praises the greatness of the United States of America than in a song that praises God. Sometimes I feel that the United States of America, is the most stealthy idol invading our faith today.

What about you? Where do you fall on this topic? Is it relevant enough to discuss?

[Hans Deventer]

Oh man, there goes one of the topics that never dies! In my view, we are first and foremost citizens of the Kingdom of God. Secondly, we are citizens of the Kingdom of God. Thirdly, we ...... you get the idea.
And then way down the list, we live in specific country.

In the past, I've sang our national anthem in a church setting. Discussions on NazNet have made me increasingly reluctant to do so, apart from the 6th verse that has quite a good Christian content.

[Alex Staley]

Haha, I had a feeling this one would have been touched on before so I apologize for that.

[Andy Mistak]

Well 4th of July is a little over a month away. I must admit I dread the Sunday falling near this holiday.

My coworkers and I had an intense debate about the appropriateness of patriotic (nationalistic) songs in church on the 4th of July weekend.

My own experience has given me a negative attitude toward patriotic showings in church. I find it tragic that members of our church sing more fervently in a song that praises the greatness of the United States of America than in a song that praises God. Sometimes I feel that the United States of America, is the most stealthy idol invading our faith today.

What about you? Where do you fall on this topic? Is it relevant enough to discuss?

Couldn't. Agree. More.

[Ian Gentles]

Oh man, there goes one of the topics that never dies! In my view, we are first and foremost citizens of the Kingdom of God. Secondly, we are citizens of the Kingdom of God. Thirdly, we ...... you get the idea.
And then way down the list, we live in specific country.

In the past, I've sang our national anthem in a church setting. Discussions on NazNet have made me increasingly reluctant to do so, apart from the 6th verse that has quite a good Christian content.

it is a hard one Hans, we do owe loyalty to our nations, but far far more to God, we are citizens of His Kingdom first and formost

[David Parker]

One of the many things I appreciate about our current church is the absense of Religious Nationalism. No flag. No Fourth of July celebration. "Just" the Gospel.

I can get goose bumps in patriotic settings and often get choked up by the national anthem. I love my country...but in my opinion none of that has any place in church or ministry.

[Jon Bemis]

My own experience has given me a negative attitude toward patriotic showings in church. I find it tragic that members of our church sing more fervently in a song that praises the greatness of the United States of America than in a song that praises God. Sometimes I feel that the United States of America, is the most stealthy idol invading our faith today.

So . . .you don't begin your services by pledging allegiance? Seriously though, I expect our service around the 4th won't be any different than the week before or the week after.

[Benjamin Burch]

it is a hard one Hans, we do owe loyalty to our nations, but far far more to God, we are citizens of His Kingdom first and formost

I'd say we also owe far, far more love and loyalty to any citizen of any other country than we do our own flag.

[Ryan Scott]

My first sermon in the new congregation is on July 4th. I'm just praying the text for the day allows me to ignore the national holiday altogether.

[Ian Gentles]

I'd say we also owe far, far more love and loyalty to any citizen of any other country than we do our own flag.

agree with you on that one.

[Andy Mistak]

At my parent's church last 4th of July, they went all out - sang the "official hymns" of every branch of the armed forces, national anthem, pledge of allegiance, etc. (Probably a big part of why I call it my parent's church and not my church)

[Mike Schutz]

I will be preaching at another district's family camp that week, so will have no control over the way the service is constructed.
At our church, our associate pastor will be preaching from the lectionary text, and the rest of the service will be constructed around that and celebration of the Lord's Supper.

When I first arrived I received some push back because there was no patriotic acknowledgement for Independence Day. I explained that we honor our country in other ways and other times, but not in our worship service. This was a dramatic change for them.

[Jim Abrams]

Funny, I pastor a multi-cultural church full of people who are for the most part 1st and 2nd generation immigrants (from one country or another). They pretty much take over the Sunday closest to July 4th. Seriously, my people are already talking about the service and it's not even June. Shortly after the service starts one might expect the First Family to be ushered to the front pew by military escort. We will honor all our service men and women and have them lead in the pledge of allegiance and offer prayers for our nation. I think this will be the first Sunday in six years I get to preach. My people, though not born American citizens, have such a deep appreciation for the USA and all it has afforded them that to fail to recognize Independence Day would be a great offense. To here their stories and see just how grateful they are for their country has challenged me to rethink some of my 'issues' surrounding the Sunday closest to July 4th.

[Jim Abrams]

I will be preaching at another district's family camp that week, so will have no control over the way the service is constructed.
At our church, our associate pastor will be preaching from the lectionary text, and the rest of the service will be constructed around that and celebration of the Lord's Supper.

When I first arrived I received some push back because there was no patriotic acknowledgement for Independence Day. I explained that we honor our country in other ways and other times, but not in our worship service. This was a dramatic change for them.

Mike, my people have asked me to travel back to church from Family Camp for that Sunday just so I can preach the sermon and share in their celebration.

[G R 'Scott' Cundiff]

I think there's a middle road between doing a service that's almost a worship of America and ignoring the fact that the entire nation is celebrating America that day.

[Benjamin Burch]

I think there's a middle road between doing a service that's almost a worship of America and ignoring the fact that the entire nation is celebrating America that day.

I agree with the sentiment here, but I'm not sure if it works well ecclesiologically. The reason being, we're called to be a part of the body of Christ, and that body itself is not celebrating America that day. Sunday is our day where we celebrate Christ as a body and our citizenship of the KoG. Why acknowledge that the rest of a nation is celebrating itself? What role or purpose does that serve in the Church's celebration of Christ that Sunday?

I'm not saying there is no reason to acknowledge, or no role it could serve in the Church's celebration of Christ. Those are honest questions to which I don't have an answer, and don't currently see one.

[Dwayne Petry]

WOW!!

Five old men in black robes took GOD out of school(and the public arena) and now the Church wants to take any celebration of HIS Blessing and Guidance out of a Sunday worship service.

I hope I am missing something.

[Benjamin Burch]

WOW!!

Five old men in black robes took GOD out of school(and the public arena) and now the Church wants to take any celebration of HIS Blessing and Guidance out of a Sunday worship service.

I hope I am missing something.

Can you explain what you mean by this?

[Wilson Deaton]

I think there's a middle road between doing a service that's almost a worship of America and ignoring the fact that the entire nation is celebrating America that day.

I agree.

I don't have or want a national flag in my church and we won't be singing the national anthem in our service. On the other hand, I won't ignore that it happens to be Independence Day. In cases like this, I typically mention the holiday and use it as a jumping off point for my sermon.

(This week for example, I'll mention that as a nation we are remembering those who gave their lives for our country and then say I want to focus on someone who gave their life for the gospel (and preach on Stephen). I'll end with Communion as a "Memorial" to Jesus who gave his life for us in the ultimate way...)

Wilson

[Jon Twitchell]

WOW!!

Five old men in black robes took GOD out of school(and the public arena)

I'm sorry...

WHO did WHAT?

I hope I am missing something.

[Lorie Hatcliff]

We always have a patriotic song service the week of July 4th. I think many would find it offensive (including myself) if we ignored the holiday. We are not worshiping the flag. We are not worshiping our country. We are paying tribute to God's hand in the founding of our country. We are thanking God for his abundant blessings on our country. We are being thankful for the noble ideals that America stands for.

Jim Abrams, I believe the young immigrants in your church can totally relate to the thankfulness part. That's why all the enthusiasm. They realize the opportunity they have here and are grateful for it.

This weekend we pay tribute to those who have given their lives or are currently putting their lives on the line for our country.

[Rich Schmidt]

My perspective is similar to Scott's and Wilson's. Our service won't be "patriotic" in any way, but I'll acknowledge the holiday. In my approach to worship, we don't step out of our daily lives when we step into worship. We bring our lives with us and lay it all at Jesus' feet. We don't try to forget about the worries and stresses and griefs and joys, as if they are distractions keeping us from focusing on God. We bring all of ourselves with us into worship and give ourselves fully to him.

So on July 4, that means I'll wish everyone a happy 4th of July, probably thank God for the freedoms we enjoy during one of the prayers, maybe even pray for our political leaders and those in the military. It may serve as a connecting point for the message. But we won't sing patriotic songs or pledge allegiance to the flag or anything like that. (We don't have any flags, national or otherwise.)

[G R 'Scott' Cundiff]

I agree with the sentiment here, but I'm not sure if it works well ecclesiologically.

My perspective is similar to Scott's and Wilson's.

I think people who are pastoring end up dealing with stuff like this in a "real world" fashion while those in the education realm deal with such things in a more theoretical manner.

We need to hear each other and learn from one another at such times.

By the way, for me, it's all somewhat theoretical as I plan on being in the Rocky Mountains enjoying "purple mountains majesty" that week. I've already started the ball rolling, though, to what I hope will be a service in which the Lord will be worshiped and in which he'll be thanked for our great nation.

[Andy Mistak]

I think people who are pastoring end up dealing with stuff like this in a "real world" fashion while those in the education realm deal with such things in a more theoretical manner.

We need to hear each other and learn from one another at such times.

I think this is a great opportunity for laypeople to be educated on the proper relationship between "Ceaser" and God, and the proper context to honor each one.

[John Kennedy]

I think you probably are. I find myself in the middle on this issue. As a worship planner and leader in worship, I have had no difficulty in planning services that reflected a spirit of thanksgiving for the blessings God has given this nation and a thoughtful cnsideration of the responsibilities that accompany such blessing. At the same time every effort was made to keep the time for degenerating into an 'America uber alles' patriotic rally. I think it's possible, and for me, even desirable to seek such a middle ground.
As far as God being taken out of school, what utter nonsense. As long as there are math tests, there'll be prayer in schools.

[John Kennedy]

I think you probably are. I find myself in the middle on this issue. As a worship planner and leader in worship, I have had no difficulty in planning services that reflected a spirit of thanksgiving for the blessings God has given this nation and a thoughtful cnsideration of the responsibilities that accompany such blessing. At the same time every effort was made to keep the time for degenerating into an 'America uber alles' patriotic rally. I think it's possible, and for me, even desirable to seek such a middle ground.
As far as God being taken out of school, what utter nonsense. As long as there are math tests, there'll be prayer in schools.

I attempted to edit my post to indicate that it was in response to Dwayne Petry's post. Evidently I failed.

[Ryan Scott]

In cases like this, I typically mention the holiday and use it as a jumping off point for my sermon.

This is still a difficult spot for me. It seems like this is still us molding our worship to the calendar of the nation. To be fair, and on a less touchy subject, I also wince when our pastor references the current sports season or local professional teams in worship. To me its the same issues. There are a number of competing ways in which we measure time - the Church has a specific calendar - which seems like the one to use in worship.

I'm not against a 4th of July picnic or other appropriate celebrations of national pride (I'll be rooting full out for the US in the World Cup next month) - I just think its important to demonstrate that the Kingdom of God is different than the kingdoms of the world, whether they be political, cultural, or social.

[Andy Mistak]

Ryan, you're gonna be a great pastor.

[David Graham]

Yep, I agree with much of what has been said so far...... there is a line to be drawn between allegiance to ones country and our allegiance to God and his kingdom. In my country also there has been a surge of nationalism in the last 20 years or so that there is this expectation even within our churches that we should "honour" our country when the sunday falls on or near a day of national significance: e.g. Australia day (26th of January) or ANZAC day (25th of April). This year ANZAC day fell on the sunday, and so I used the service to remember those accross all walks of life who gave their lives in the service of their country..... i.e. certainly military but also Police, SES & Emergency Service workers and Australian Humanitarian project staff working abroad. I did this specifically because I wanted to send the message that our "hero's" are not just found on the battle fields (or the sporting arenas) but come from every walk of life.

Blessings,
DAve

[Jim Chabot]

We have a worship service on Memorial Day Sunday and on the Sunday closest to Independence Day. We take the time to reflect on just how thankful we are for the freedoms we enjoy. Our congregation is multicultural, we have many first and second generation Americans. We also have many who came here from Cape Verde, their country gained it's independence in the seventies, they have the unique perspective of living through this, their appreciation runs deep.

I'm working on song selection for Memorial Day right now.

Looks like our pre-service song will be "Because He Lives", followed by our standard "Come Holy Spirit" I haven't picked the responsive reading yet, I'm looking for something unique,

Next we will sing the chorus "Majesty" then we sing "America" which was written right near here at Andover Newton Seminary, and first sung at Park Street Church in Boston. I still have to pick which four of the thirteen verses we will sing.

Then the greeting, this week will be "I Love You With The Love of The Lord" After that a special "I Pledge My Allegiance" by Gloria Gaither.

After the special we sing "The Battle Hymn of The Republic" written by abolitionist Julia Ward Howe.

The Choir sings next, they have a selection that honors our fallen soldiers, then from there we go to prayer.

The closing Chorus is going to be "If My People" this was the life verse of our founding Pastor.

I hope that isn't too patriotic, I'm getting excited about thanking our Great God for all that we have and for those who sacrificed all to give us this great gift of freedom!

[Billy Cox]

My coworkers and I had an intense debate about the appropriateness of patriotic (nationalistic) songs in church on the 4th of July weekend.

My own experience has given me a negative attitude toward patriotic showings in church. I find it tragic that members of our church sing more fervently in a song that praises the greatness of the United States of America than in a song that praises God. Sometimes I feel that the United States of America, is the most stealthy idol invading our faith today.

What about you? Where do you fall on this topic? Is it relevant enough to discuss?

I too am thankful that my church doesn't engage in Christian nationalism. I am also reasonably certain that some people in the congregation wish it wasn't that way.

I think that the underlying question is whether the local church is a gathering only of the Kingdom of God or whether it functions as a community gathering as well. I think I would be hard pressed to find a church that operates completely in a vacuum, never acknowledging happenings (such as national holidays) that are relevant to the community.

But then I don't set the agenda on Sunday so it doesn't really matter what I think.

[Marg Shurtliff]

The Sunday closest to July 1st we always open the service with "O Canada " , followed by a prayer for our country and then we get on with a regular service .

Oh, Canada
Our home and native land,
True patriot love
In all thy sons command.
With glowing hearts
We see thee rise,
The true, north, strong, and free.
From far and wide
Oh Canada
We stand on guard for thee.
God keep our land
Glorious and free.
Oh, Canada we stand on guard for thee,
Oh, Canada
we stand on guard for thee.

[Dave Mann]

My first sermon in the new congregation is on July 4th. I'm just praying the text for the day allows me to ignore the national holiday altogether.

Reason #73 to follow the Common Lectionary.

[Jim Chabot]

The Sunday closest to July 1st we always open the service with "O Canada " , followed by a prayer for our country and then we get on with a regular service .

Oh, Canada
Our home and native land,
True patriot love
In all thy sons command.
With glowing hearts
We see thee rise,
The true, north, strong, and free.
From far and wide
Oh Canada
We stand on guard for thee.
God keep our land
Glorious and free.
Oh, Canada we stand on guard for thee,
Oh, Canada
we stand on guard for thee.

Love that Song!!!

This version brings tears to my eyes;

[Rich Schmidt]

This is still a difficult spot for me. It seems like this is still us molding our worship to the calendar of the nation. To be fair, and on a less touchy subject, I also wince when our pastor references the current sports season or local professional teams in worship. To me its the same issues. There are a number of competing ways in which we measure time - the Church has a specific calendar - which seems like the one to use in worship.

Ryan, I'd be interested in hearing your response to the reasoning I laid out in my earlier post:

My perspective is similar to Scott's and Wilson's. Our service won't be "patriotic" in any way, but I'll acknowledge the holiday. In my approach to worship, we don't step out of our daily lives when we step into worship. We bring our lives with us and lay it all at Jesus' feet. We don't try to forget about the worries and stresses and griefs and joys, as if they are distractions keeping us from focusing on God. We bring all of ourselves with us into worship and give ourselves fully to him.

So on July 4, that means I'll wish everyone a happy 4th of July, probably thank God for the freedoms we enjoy during one of the prayers, maybe even pray for our political leaders and those in the military. It may serve as a connecting point for the message. But we won't sing patriotic songs or pledge allegiance to the flag or anything like that. (We don't have any flags, national or otherwise.)

[Ryan Scott]

Ryan, I'd be interested in hearing your response to the reasoning I laid out in my earlier post:

I don't think I'd disagree. We just have to remember that the purpose of our daily lives is to grow more Christ-like. The purpose of worship is to bring our lives into alignment with Christ - to re-member. I view worship perhaps as a realignment. As I mentioned earlier, there are a lot of competing measures of time and narratives of life vying for our attention every week. Worship is the time we draw ourselves back to God and align ourselves with God's time and God's story.

I wouldn't be against mentioning during a service "this week, the world around us calls us to ________, but we must remember that God calls us to ___________." Those blanks don't necessarily have to be opposite or contradictory, but they are different and worship is the place in which we're reminded on this. We may not only get such a reminder once a week on Sunday morning, but whenever we're gathered as the Church there is a specific purpose.

[Hans Deventer]

I think people who are pastoring end up dealing with stuff like this in a "real world" fashion while those in the education realm deal with such things in a more theoretical manner.

I'm so glad that in my real world, this issue never comes up. I guess that's actually one of the reasons why I should be grateful for my country, notwithstanding all its bad sides.

Not that there is no display of nationalism in the Netherlands. Google "oranje gekte" (orange madness) and you'll see plenty of that, especially with the World Football Championship approaching. But it is generally more sports related, or royal family related on the Queen's Day (they are the "House of Orange", hence the colour). On Memorial Day it is about those who fought for our county in World War 2 and later on, on Liberation Day it is about celebrating liberty. Come to think of it, we don't really have a holiday or moment celebrating us as a nation, for who we are.

[Benjamin Burch]

I think people who are pastoring end up dealing with stuff like this in a "real world" fashion while those in the education realm deal with such things in a more theoretical manner.

We need to hear each other and learn from one another at such times.

By the way, for me, it's all somewhat theoretical as I plan on being in the Rocky Mountains enjoying "purple mountains majesty" that week. I've already started the ball rolling, though, to what I hope will be a service in which the Lord will be worshiped and in which he'll be thanked for our great nation.

Scott,

Thanks for the response. Rich and Wilson's responses were helpful, too. Having Wilson and Rich talk about it made this "middle ground" make more sense. It was helpful for me to read these. Thank you.

[Jim Chabot]

I'm so glad that in my real world, this issue never comes up. I guess that's actually one of the reasons why I should be grateful for my country, notwithstanding all its bad sides.

Not that there is no display of nationalism in the Netherlands. Google "oranje gekte" (orange madness) and you'll see plenty of that, especially with the World Football Championship approaching. But it is generally more sports related, or royal family related on the Queen's Day (they are the "House of Orange", hence the colour). On Memorial Day it is about those who fought for our county in World War 2 and later on, on Liberation Day it is about celebrating liberty. Come to think of it, we don't really have a holiday or moment celebrating us as a nation, for who we are.

Nor do we. Our Memorial Day is about remembering those who fought for our country, it dates back to the civil war so it has additional meaning regarding the abolition of slavery here. Our Fourth of July is more properly called Independence Day where we celebrate our independence and the realization of our God given right to freedom. We have never been an Imperialistic or agreesive people, we have never celebrated in that manner.

[Hans Deventer]

Our Fourth of July is more properly called Independence Day where we celebrate our independence and the realization of our God given right to freedom.

I don't think there is such a thing as a "God given right to freedom". God doesn't give rights. If we have a right, it is to be condemned to hell. If we receive anything, it is sheer grace and nothing but grace.