Commissioned Elders?

[Craig Laughlin]

Many of the regulars on the theology board know that I am in my second year of an administrative reorganization of our church board. Nearly two years ago we left the Trustee/Steward Model and moved to an Elder Deacon model.

On the whole this has been a very good move. However one of my biggest problems is getting the Elders to understand that they are Elders and not Super Deacons. They have a hard time seeing themselves as charged with the spiritual care of the congregation. (that is what I do)

(The deacons are loving the new system. It has some hiccups but on the whole is doing well)

When we got district approval for our new system Dave McClung was a member of the DAB and for legal reasons asked that I be clear in communicating that these elders were local elders not ordained Elders eligible for the denominational benefits. This seemed wise to me and I was going to make a clear distinction anyway.

What I am thinking about... Maybe we need to create a category of some sort of local Elder. I've been thinking about the word "Commissioned." I really need a way of elevating these folks understanding of their role and a way of increasing the level of awareness and spiritual authority in the congregation. I envision a yearly "commissioning" of our Elders for the upcoming year.

When they exercise the role of local elder they have been a huge help to me. I plan on doing more training this year which I think will help and not having to deal with the financial crises will help but I would really like to create a "space" in our congregational awareness.

What do you think? Can I make up titles? What would you do to help Elders understand they are Elders not Deacons?

[John Reilly]

Hi Craig, I commend your efforts. Years ago I used a book, "Biblical Eldership" in a men's Bible Study to teach and to promote the role of elders. I had some push back and resistance to the language. Currently, I have some "new" Nazarenes from a Baptist background, who have struggled with the Nazarene culture of trustees and stewards. They are familiar with the roles of elder and deacon. As long as ministry gets done it does not matter what we call the role. I think you can use any words and terms you want in your ministry context. In fact, new names and role descriptions often stimulates new passion fro ministry. I suspect if we tried to reorganize the Nazarene manual around elders and deacons rather than trustees and stewards eventually we would be looking for "NEW" ways to promote ministry.

[Dave McClung]

Many of the regulars on the theology board know that I am in my second year of an administrative reorganization of our church board. Nearly two years ago we left the Trustee/Steward Model and moved to an Elder Deacon model.

On the whole this has been a very good move. However one of my biggest problems is getting the Elders to understand that they are Elders and not Super Deacons. They have a hard time seeing themselves as charged with the spiritual care of the congregation. (that is what I do)

(The deacons are loving the new system. It has some hiccups but on the whole is doing well)

When we got district approval for our new system Dave McClung was a member of the DAB and for legal reasons asked that I be clear in communicating that these elders were local elders not ordained Elders eligible for the denominational benefits. This seemed wise to me and I was going to make a clear distinction anyway.

What I am thinking about... Maybe we need to create a category of some sort of local Elder. I've been thinking about the word "Commissioned." I really need a way of elevating these folks understanding of their role and a way of increasing the level of awareness and spiritual authority in the congregation. I envision a yearly "commissioning" of our Elders for the upcoming year.

When they exercise the role of local elder they have been a huge help to me. I plan on doing more training this year which I think will help and not having to deal with the financial crises will help but I would really like to create a "space" in our congregational awareness.

What do you think? Can I make up titles? What would you do to help Elders understand they are Elders not Deacons?

How about calling them "layman?" That is good enough for me.

[David Graham]

Craig, in my denomination, we have had "Elders" from the beginning, and before that the Presbyterians ran with this model.

Our Elders are not necessarily part of the Church Council, and so we have within our church culture a clear distinction between the two roles.... i.e. Spiritual oversight and administration.

And while part of their role is to distribute the sacraments already "consecrated" in the communion service, they realise that this is only one of their roles, and that their "real" responsibility is to care for the people of God...... indeed their "ordination vows" are similar to the minister but restricted to their service within the local church. Which brings up a very important issue...... I will not ordain any elder unless they are both spiritually "fit" and have a strong sense of call to the position.

I hope that might be helpful.....
Blessings,
Dave

[Craig Laughlin]

Thanks David, that is helpful. I think one of the unfortunate misses in the COTN is the role of lay people who are Elders and charged with caring for souls. I am slowly working towards helping our Elders to understand that their role is spiritual care not building maintenance or running programs. As they catch on to it I find that the parishioners and the Elders themselves love it. There is something powerful about a lay person who is an Elder in the church putting their hand on a shoulder and praying for someone. I think in someways it is more powerful than me doing it. I, and most clergy, suffer from what I call the "Walmart greeter effect" you know they are being paid to be nice to you. When a lay person who has been uniquely set aside by the church for this task does something like this it seems to have a foot in both the power of the priestly role and the clean motivations of an unpaid lay person. It also has the huge effect of multiplying ministry. I can only meet, council and pray with so many folks. When there are lay people doing it... it can happen all the time. -- Still working on it. - Next years groups gets more training but I am see great potential for empowering people to do ministry.

[Craig Laughlin]

Hi Craig, I commend your efforts. Years ago I used a book, "Biblical Eldership" in a men's Bible Study to teach and to promote the role of elders. I had some push back and resistance to the language. Currently, I have some "new" Nazarenes from a Baptist background, who have struggled with the Nazarene culture of trustees and stewards. They are familiar with the roles of elder and deacon. As long as ministry gets done it does not matter what we call the role. I think you can use any words and terms you want in your ministry context. In fact, new names and role descriptions often stimulates new passion fro ministry. I suspect if we tried to reorganize the Nazarene manual around elders and deacons rather than trustees and stewards eventually we would be looking for "NEW" ways to promote ministry.

I agree that theoretically we could push the role of Trustee and Steward into these functions and probably that was the idea but in my experience the trustees dominate the power and agenda. (so much so that steward was often tacitly perceived to be a women's position) The unspoken message is that "things" are more important than people. I like having two separate boards and the two groups really like it. (My admin associate runs the Deacons) I also like that it is the Elders board that functions as our final governing body. The clear message is that temporal things are the servant of spiritual things and that our top priority is people.

I think it would be hard in most Nazarene churches for the them to see the Stewards as the primary agenda setters in the church rather than the trustees. I've only been on the board of a half dozen Nazarene churches but in all of them the amount of time spend on Trustee (programs and things) issues was much greater than those spent on Steward (spiritual growth and people) issues. Maybe that is not the case in most Nazarene churches.

It is all a grand experiment. We will see what happens.

[Gene Tatsch]

...It is all a grand experiment. We will see what happens.

Definitely.
To shift actions in ways that imply that spiritual matters are more important than power & agenda seems strangely Scriptural ;-)

[Ryan Scott]

I'll be the ignorant one. I've never heard of an elder/deacon model for a congregational board. It might be easier for me to comment if I knew what the roles were and how it functions within the context of Nazarene polity.

[Bill Morrison]

I agree that theoretically we could push the role of Trustee and Steward into these functions and probably that was the idea but in my experience the trustees dominate the power and agenda. (so much so that steward was often tacitly perceived to be a women's position)

About 32 years ago, I was elected Chair of the Board of Stewards in the Iowa City COTN. When my wife found out, she was beside herself with mirth, having grown up in a (typical?) COTN where men on the board were Trustees and women on the board were stewards. God bless our wives And blessings on your experiment to bring church governance/function into the 21st century.

BILL

[Bill Morrison]

Anyone have comments on how Craig's experiment and situation are similar to Acts 6? Different from Acts 6?

BILL

[Hans Deventer]

Craig, I'm from a Dutch Reformed background and actually have been a member as Elder of such a board. I wonder what it means for the role of the pastor, for there, (s)he is the primus inter pares, the first among equal. I had to adapt a lot in the CotN where the chasm between laity and clergy is huge. And initially (that has changed since 1989) the church board was merely there to applaud and help realise the vision of the pastor.

[Jim Chabot]

I really like this approach Craig, although I must admit that I have never taken the time to figure out what a Steward or a Trustee is. In the C&MA we had a model similar to what you are describing, well excepting that we had four boards, Elder, Deacon, Executive and Trustee. The Deacons served communion (waiting on tables) and they administered the benevolent fund. The Trustee's were the property managers. The Executive Board held the purse strings, and the Elder Board cared for the spiritual needs of the congregation and Pastor.

I can see where four boards might be cumbersome. Although I remember it working well.

My memory is that the Trustee's served at the pleasure of the Executive Board, they were not really a Board in true sense, more like lackeys with a title. While the Deacons had such limited function that they were considered junior Elders of sorts.

The Executive Board's function was similar to that of a City Council or Board of Selectmen or Aldermen. Their function was financial and administrative, they answered to the annual meeting directly and to the Pastor indirectly. The Pastor by charter presides over the annual meeting, and serves as chair of the Executive Board.

The Elder Board functioned as an extension both of and to the Pastor. Elders would be ones to whom the parishioners would seek out in times of need. Elders made hospital visits, visited the shut ins and participated in public prayer during the services. Elders would also meet frequently with the Pastor to discuss the spiritual needs of the church and each other. They were a church within a church with the Pastor being first among equals. The Board of Elders owned all of the responsibility given to the Pastor. The Pastor is the agent of the Elders, thus the Elders were responsible to take up all of the duties and responsibilities of the Pastor in the Pastor's absence.

[Rich Schmidt]

To be frank, I think it muddies the waters to use the terms elders and deacons when those terms have such different meaning in the Church of the Nazarene. Nothing in the Manual or denominational publications will match what your folks will come to expect. You'll have to add something to the words to make it clear that they're purely local in meaning. Maybe just calling them "local elders" will work? I don't know. I'd avoid "commissioned" since that word means something specific for evangelists, etc.

As for the trustees being men & stewards being women.... I've never encountered that. It sounds freakishly odd to me. Would someone care to explain...?

[Craig Laughlin]

Craig, I'm from a Dutch Reformed background and actually have been a member as Elder of such a board. I wonder what it means for the role of the pastor, for there, (s)he is the primus inter pares, the first among equal. I had to adapt a lot in the CotN where the chasm between laity and clergy is huge. And initially (that has changed since 1989) the church board was merely there to applaud and help realise the vision of the pastor.

I was on staff at a Reformed Church In America while in Seminary. I was deeply influenced by their model and saw great power in it. I also think it closer to the Biblical model. Until I saw the Reformed approach I had not realized how big the gap was between the lay and clergy in the COTN. I think your description is pretty accurate.

The sad part about the Nazarene approach is not that it elevates the ministry of clergy as much as it devalues the ministry of lay people. In the evangelical church we have tried to rediscover that to some extend with the popularity of Spiritual Gifts but I think there is great value in bringing Gifts together with Office in the church.

As to primus inter pares that is one of the issues I grapple with. I think I am still "chewing" on it intellectually as well as figuring out what would actually work and what would need to be transitional toward the ultimate goal. I certainly think the firstness comes in a certain order of ordination but also in the choosing of the church for the office of pastor and my training as a theologian. - Open to thoughts on this...

Ryan - This is the church I am drawing from although the Baptists also use a type of Lay Elder and Deacon model.

[Craig Laughlin]

I really like this approach Craig, although I must admit that I have never taken the time to figure out what a Steward or a Trustee is. In the C&MA we had a model similar to what you are describing, well excepting that we had four boards, Elder, Deacon, Executive and Trustee. The Deacons served communion (waiting on tables) and they administered the benevolent fund. The Trustee's were the property managers. The Executive Board held the purse strings, and the Elder Board cared for the spiritual needs of the congregation and Pastor.

I can see where four boards might be cumbersome. Although I remember it working well.

My memory is that the Trustee's served at the pleasure of the Executive Board, they were not really a Board in true sense, more like lackeys with a title. While the Deacons had such limited function that they were considered junior Elders of sorts.

The Executive Board's function was similar to that of a City Council or Board of Selectmen or Aldermen. Their function was financial and administrative, they answered to the annual meeting directly and to the Pastor indirectly. The Pastor by charter presides over the annual meeting, and serves as chair of the Executive Board.

The Elder Board functioned as an extension both of and to the Pastor. Elders would be ones to whom the parishioners would seek out in times of need. Elders made hospital visits, visited the shut ins and participated in public prayer during the services. Elders would also meet frequently with the Pastor to discuss the spiritual needs of the church and each other. They were a church within a church with the Pastor being first among equals. The Board of Elders owned all of the responsibility given to the Pastor. The Pastor is the agent of the Elders, thus the Elders were responsible to take up all of the duties and responsibilities of the Pastor in the Pastor's absence.

Thank you Jim this is very helpful. It is also helpful to me personally as I have a large number of former Alliance people in my church. We have always said our two churches were very close to each other. Apparently not organizationally, which explains a lot of their confusion. This will help me talk to them.

[Craig Laughlin]

To be frank, I think it muddies the waters to use the terms elders and deacons when those terms have such different meaning in the Church of the Nazarene. Nothing in the Manual or denominational publications will match what your folks will come to expect. You'll have to add something to the words to make it clear that they're purely local in meaning. Maybe just calling them "local elders" will work? I don't know. I'd avoid "commissioned" since that word means something specific for evangelists, etc.

As for the trustees being men & stewards being women.... I've never encountered that. It sounds freakishly odd to me. Would someone care to explain...?

Interesting how one experiences the COTN entirely one way (Women were stewards - me and Bill M.) and another completely differently.

At the risk of sidetracking my own thread.... Recently I have been told by the ladies in my church that in the COTN the Women's ministry director and her council are always elected by the whole church right along with the Church board and missionary board. They swear this is the way every COTN has always done it. I've never heard of it. It was always an appointed position.

What have you all experienced? - I may owe our women an apology.

[Edith Thurmond]

CRAIG, although not exactly fitting in your thread, something in me thinks that this article might contain a morsel that could be of benefit as you are processing your thinking. It's an awesome article and provides much food for thought.

-et-

[Hans Deventer]

CRAIG, although not exactly fitting in your thread, something in me thinks that this article might contain a morsel that could be of benefit as you are processing your thinking. It's an awesome article and provides much food for thought.

Edith, this is a very interesting article, but the question as to how it relates to the church might warrant its own thread.

[Edith Thurmond]

Edith, this is a very interesting article, but the question as to how it relates to the church might warrant its own thread.

OKAY, you link it and start the thread. I think it could apply in many areas of the church, too.

-et-

[Rich Schmidt]

Interesting how one experiences the COTN entirely one way (Women were stewards - me and Bill M.) and another completely differently.

At the risk of sidetracking my own thread.... Recently I have been told by the ladies in my church that in the COTN the Women's ministry director and her council are always elected by the whole church right along with the Church board and missionary board. They swear this is the way every COTN has always done it. I've never heard of it. It was always an appointed position.

What have you all experienced? - I may owe our women an apology.

Our church doesn't have any of those boards & positions (just the church board). But in the churches I grew up in... I don't recall ever voting for anyone but the church board... and maybe SS superintendent? It's too far back in the foggy past...

[Hans Deventer]

OKAY, you link it and start the thread. I think it could apply in many areas of the church, too.

-et-

Done!

[Randy Wise]

On the whole this has been a very good move. However one of my biggest problems is getting the Elders to understand that they are Elders and not Super Deacons. They have a hard time seeing themselves as charged with the spiritual care of the congregation. (that is what I do)

I disagree. "Super Deacon" has a nice ring to it. Put it up to a vote.

However it is of note that Jesus overcame the world as a servant not as a King.

Randy

[Susan Unger]

Interesting how one experiences the COTN entirely one way (Women were stewards - me and Bill M.) and another completely differently.

At the risk of sidetracking my own thread.... Recently I have been told by the ladies in my church that in the COTN the Women's ministry director and her council are always elected by the whole church right along with the Church board and missionary board. They swear this is the way every COTN has always done it. I've never heard of it. It was always an appointed position.

What have you all experienced? - I may owe our women an apology.

I've never heard of it being elected position. Growing up it was automatically assumed to be the pastor's wife's job Meanwhile in my current church we had someone volunteer to do the job. When she moved on to another church no one took her place.

[Kami Tuenning]

I think that when a church does a general election to choose "elders" they miss the point of what a biblical elder in fact was. First, it seems a bit strange to have elders without a Bishop. However, maybe that is what a district superintendent is? An elder (in my experience) is a "called" man, of one wife whose life is above reproach. (I was raised Baptist) Deacons and Deaconess' were assigned to serve the church and their community. Elders cared for the flock. In my personal past experience as Baptist and Methodist, an elder was always a "called" person, meaning they had a clear mark of the gift of teaching and shepherding and were required to receive advanced schooling/formation of some sort. In the Catholic Church, a deacon is a "called" position which requires 3 years of Seminary training. They are unpaid and serve the church and community as well as work in a secular field. I am not sure the model you are trying to implement will work as you desire if the elders are simply elected on a rotational basis based upon whose "turn" it is to serve. That is probably why there is a certain level of identity crisis occurring. I should also mention that Elders were elders until they died or "retired" and then became Elders' Emeritus : )

All this being said, I believe you must make the office of elder a "commissioned" lifetime appointment or you will not truly have an elder-led church, but rather a renamed Trustee/Steward governance.

[Kami Tuenning]

...... indeed their "ordination vows" are similar to the minister but restricted to their service within the local church. Which brings up a very important issue...... I will not ordain any elder unless they are both spiritually "fit" and have a strong sense of call to the position.

Dave

I agree wholeheartedly with your position on the subject David!

[Kevin Rector]

To be frank, I think it muddies the waters to use the terms elders and deacons when those terms have such different meaning in the Church of the Nazarene.

This is what I was going to say. It's kind of like holding up a guitar and saying, "from now on we're going to call this a piano - we're still going to call the piano a piano, but this is a piano too from now on."

[Hans Deventer]

This is what I was going to say. It's kind of like holding up a guitar and saying, "from now on we're going to call this a piano - we're still going to call the piano a piano, but this is a piano too from now on."

Actually, we might benefit now from our strange custom to always talk about ordained elders. Up till now, we never had any other.

[Rich Schmidt]

This is what I was going to say. It's kind of like holding up a guitar and saying, "from now on we're going to call this a piano - we're still going to call the piano a piano, but this is a piano too from now on."

I can understand the desire to do something like what Craig is doing. After all, he has people coming to his church saying, "Wait, you call them guitars? In our old church, we called those pianos." Some churches do use "elders" to refer to their church board. And they read the verses in the Bible about "elders" as references to those folks. It must seem strange, then, to move from that to a Nazarene church where there's usually only one "elder," and that elder is the pastor.

[Hans Deventer]

I can understand the desire to do something like what Craig is doing. After all, he has people coming to his church saying, "Wait, you call them guitars? In our old church, we called those pianos." Some churches do use "elders" to refer to their church board. And they read the verses in the Bible about "elders" as references to those folks. It must seem strange, then, to move from that to a Nazarene church where there's usually only one "elder," and that elder is the pastor.

Most Dutch churches are in that tradition, so it was strange indeed to come to the CotN and see the word so limited compared to what we are used to. Interestingly, it seems the biblical elders were indeed plural, but more like today's trustees than busy with pastoral care.

[Randy Wise]

Well elders is used in REV. However it must carry a high honor given by God since there's only 24.

And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God’s people.

Of course elders also includes a context of "age". So how old does one have to be to become a elder if that title is used?

R.

[Hans Deventer]

Of course elders also includes a context of "age". So how old does one have to be to become a elder if that title is used?

R.

I was 22 when I became an elder in the Dutch Reformed Church. Now, for the record, my specific assignment was "youth".