New Covenant - separation of church and state by God?

[Randy Wise]

Did God reject or cut off Israel for a period of time? I myself along with many of you see God as having only one family in Christ. At the beginning of the message male, female, Jew gentile. I also can't see that fine line between Jew (Hebrew, child of Abraham) and gentile in this day and age.

So what was changed in regard to the Israel of the past in a new covenant?
To me I have decided to conceptualize this change in regard to Israel as a separation of Church and state by God because of hypocrisy and He didn't like how the people were being treated. Individual access was never cut off for those who "sought" that relationship under Gods terms. (meaning Christ)
The church wasn’t given civil authority by God despite abuses in history that might claim otherwise.

I fully expect at the ressurrection and 2nd coming (the same timing as I read), that God through Christ Jesus will gather His own from the ends of the heavens into a single nation on this earth. I fully expect to see Jesus at that time having His seat in Israel.


I get this from reading the Lords responce to the women at the well about where one must worship God.

John 4
19 “Sir,” the woman said, “I can see that you are a prophet. 20 Our ancestors worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews claim that the place where we must worship is in Jerusalem.”

21 “Woman,” Jesus replied, “believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”
25 The woman said, “I know that Messiah” (called Christ) “is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us.” 26 Then Jesus declared, “I, the one speaking to you—I am he.”

[Ryan Scott]

I wrote a long response that got deleted by spotty internet service.

I will say, the separation language makes sense for the very real division between the ethnic Jewish population, and those who embrace Judaism as a religion.

At the same time, I have difficulty with the separation because this has always been the case - throughout Jewish history there have been faithful adherent and those who could care less about the proper practice of worship.

Scripturally, in Christ, gentiles are grafted into the people of God, the nation of Israel. In that sense, ethnicity no longer serves as the defining factor. Then again, it never did, Israel was likely cobbled together from many disparate people's under the banner of Abraham - and they had long held practices of conversion and assimilation of those who wished to worship God and join the nation.

Ultimately the real rejection was against outsiders who wanted to have an opinion and some control over how faithfulness was interpreted. Honestly, this seems a natural human reaction to people honing in on turf that was once our sole domain.

It is a bit easier to mediate disputes within the family - which is why Paul had some initial successes within synagogues (Rome seems to be one place where Christ-following Jews and those who did not accept Christ got along for a time). Over time, though, the inclusion of gentiles, especially without full conversion to Judaism, likely facilitated a predictable and understandable split.

I certainly think the split had more to do with human frailty than with any plan of God.

[Steven Burton]

I am not really sure the majority of Christian splits are anything God planned in the first place. It seems to be a human characteristic to split when we don't agree on certain things and then develop into groups. Paul seem to fight against grouping quite often in the early church.

I am also not so sure why God would need to separate Church and State. That seems more like the ideology that was develop in the late 1700's more than scriptural.

[Randy Wise]

I am not really sure the majority of Christian splits are anything God planned in the first place. It seems to be a human characteristic to split when we don't agree on certain things and then develop into groups. Paul seem to fight against grouping quite often in the early church.

I am also not so sure why God would need to separate Church and State. That seems more like the ideology that was develop in the late 1700's more than scriptural.

Part of what I see as a consequence of a new covenant that came from God and was introduced by Jesus (with His blood) is that we are not under the Law of Moses and our righteousness is by faith in Jesus. So I viewed that change in covenant with the new terms and conditions as a separation of church and state. Maybe I didn’t give it enough thought. Though I don’t read were civil authority was given by Jesus to His church.

[Bob Carabbio]

"I am also not so sure why God would need to separate Church and State."

TO prevent the "Visible Church" from persecuting folks that it didn't agree with just like it used to in the "Good old days". It appears that God Does that through the blessing of "Denominationalism" which is an application of His "Babel" method of preventing something to be built, that HE doesn't want Built. He separates Church and State, AND Church and Church for OUR protection - and as a result, we generally DON'T kill each other over minor points of doctrine any more. That's progress at least.

ANd the LAST THING anybody would want is the present flesh-driven and immature Visible church with "Political power".