Hyper-masculinity strikes again

[Jim Chabot]

Letting go of an associate pastor due to finances and hiring two additional staff members would typically require involvement from the church board and/or finance committee. "Taking the congregation hostage" was most likely not a one man enterprise but rather the consensus from leaders in the church. I'm also curious as to why the pastor is still there if 75% of the congregation has left.

I find your comment in bold to be quite ironic given that you subscribe to Papal infallibility. Such a dodgma demands obedience to the Pope at all times, even in times of error. The second Vatican Council taught:
Not sure it's the Nazarene congregation being held "hostage" here.

Hey Marcus, I think Rich is right here. No need to pick on Tami for her Roman leanings. All that seems to do is to cloud the conversation.

I've checked the stats and she is correct, about two thirds of the congregation of 300 appears to have left starting in 2008 or so. Then again there are two churches there and it looks like the other one has dropped from 80 to about 60 from 2008 on.

You make a good observation that this isn't necessarily the Pastor alone. The church had to first call him, and we don't know if the decline started with him or if it was already underway. The Board most likely has been at least somewhat supportive as this decline started in 2008, the period for the two year review is past, so there must be some level of support for the pastor.

Tami has also let us know that her husband has stuck in there and is, I believe, the worship leader there. My heart and prayers have gone out to him quite often as it must be difficult for him to minister without the full support of his family. The one thing we do know is that we should remember them in prayer.

As to the rest of the thread, I am incredibly grateful to be in a church where the issue of masculinity or femininity is completely foreign. Not even something that we think about, nor talk about. Which is incredibly neat.

I've been in churches where they practiced a male leadership model, and interestingly enough it was the pastor's wife who usually ran things. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain so to speak. And I've been in churches where the women were in charge and heaven help you if you so much as suggested that it should be otherwise. Needless to say, but I'm happy to repeat that I'm real grateful to be in a place where this isn't even close to being an issue!!!!

[Kami Tuenning]

If 75% of the church left within a 2-year period, I doubt the DS (or the church board) saw it coming or had time to intervene. I'm not sure what the DS could do, anyway. It's the church board that needs to act, in a case like this.

I think some folks should allow me a little bit of credibility here since my husband was on staff at this church. There certainly is a great deal more background information than what can be revealed here. You can be assured that if that amount of membership left it involved board leadership, along with high profile leaders such as the CEO/Director of a multimillion dollar homeless shelter in the region. This was not a typical church split over a clash of personalities. When the board was left with a large amount of vacant seats and a mass exodus of thinking, mature christians...well you get the picture, a warm body is all that is required. The DS, whom we really like, has in private expressed his anguish over the situation, yet apparently has not deemed it necessary to conduct a meeting between pastor, board and himself. My husband who still remains as worship leader without pay or title (can we say, insecurity?) however has been on staff as the youth pastor for another large church in the community of a different denomination. Also, my husband doesn't feel abandoned by his family. It was my husband who encouraged me to enter the Catholic Church after I dropped out of RCIA for a 6 month period of discernment. What grieves him is that his children (grown) refuse to sit under the authority of the current leadership of this church and are so bitter of the way my husband was tossed aside by this insecure man that they just don't think organized church is worth the their time : ( To be honest, I have suggested to my husband that I feel his true motive for staying on at this church is to be a bur in the side of this pastor-he assures me it is because he takes his local license seriously and is not simply going to pick up his marbles and go home.

[Bob Hunter]

Hey Marcus, I think Rich is right here. No need to pick on Tami for her Roman leanings. All that seems to do is to cloud the conversation.

I've checked the stats and she is correct, about two thirds of the congregation of 300 appears to have left starting in 2008 or so. Then again there are two churches there and it looks like the other one has dropped from 80 to about 60 from 2008 on.

You make a good observation that this isn't necessarily the Pastor alone. The church had to first call him, and we don't know if the decline started with him or if it was already underway. The Board most likely has been at least somewhat supportive as this decline started in 2008, the period for the two year review is past, so there must be some level of support for the pastor.

Tami has also let us know that her husband has stuck in there and is, I believe, the worship leader there. My heart and prayers have gone out to him quite often as it must be difficult for him to minister without the full support of his family. The one thing we do know is that we should remember them in prayer.

As to the rest of the thread, I am incredibly grateful to be in a church where the issue of masculinity or femininity is completely foreign. Not even something that we think about, nor talk about. Which is incredibly neat.

I've been in churches where they practiced a male leadership model, and interestingly enough it was the pastor's wife who usually ran things. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain so to speak. And I've been in churches where the women were in charge and heaven help you if you so much as suggested that it should be otherwise. Needless to say, but I'm happy to repeat that I'm real grateful to be in a place where this isn't even close to being an issue!!!!

I'm wondering if in this situation it was not the pastor's personality and spiritual immaturity that led to the decline. Ideology is one thing, but ego, stubbornness and spiritual immaturity are another. There may be a lot of pastors who share a hyper-masculine philosophy of ministry (I'm actually sympathetic to it), but I would not go about it in a spirit that produces division--it's not worth it.

[Kami Tuenning]

Letting go of an associate pastor due to finances and hiring two additional staff members would typically require involvement from the church board and/or finance committee. "Taking the congregation hostage" was most likely not a one man enterprise but rather the consensus from leaders in the church. I'm also curious as to why the pastor is still there if 75% of the congregation has left.

I find your comment in bold to be quite ironic given that you subscribe to Papal infallibility. Such a dodgma demands obedience to the Pope at all times, even in times of error. The second Vatican Council taught:
Not sure it's the Nazarene congregation being held "hostage" here.

Marcus, I find it very sad the way you "size-up" a person based upon their theology. Your "roman leanings" comments are so tiresome. I would really like you to get to know the person behind the theology. Along with being a teacher, a very sporadic blogger: http://pleasantplaces-tami.blogspot....-crickets.html ~ I have a dance studio ministry which GOD has blessed beyond imagination this past year in our community. And guess what Marcus? A Baptist Church heard about it and invited me with open arms to base the ministry in their church! GASP!!! Please check-out my FB page and read the info and my mission here:http://www.facebook.com/permalink.ph...79920895409129 I offer ballet, tap and jazz classes to girls for extremely low tuition and offer scholarships for families with financial needs. Currently 1/3 of my students are on full scholarship. Here is one mother's testimony: http://olsonfamilychronicles.blogspo....html?spref=fb

I never invested a penny in advertising, believing GOD would bring those families HE desired to come to my studio. My husband is out and about in the community a lot for his ministry and also sits on a regional Health and Human Services Advisory board. He says it never fails at one of his meetings, someone will ask about his wife and this "wonderful ministry" she has. People have spread the word so much that I have had to close enrollment for the year. I share God's Word and encourage my students to pursue GOD and HIS purpose for their life through purity and virtue. Next year the Baptist will be referring inner city girls to me for the program. My students come from all denominations and even some who have have no religious affiliation. I have traditional families, single-parent families, Gay and Lesbian families and guess what Marcus-they really appreciate that I share my faith with their children , and could care less what my denominational label is.

You will not find that I am a zealot with rosary beads dangling from my hands (although I cherish the rosary my daughter gave me). I am much like you Marcus. Very passionate about my Savior. No, Desperately passionate for my Savior. I love to share with others that God brought about the salvation for all mankind through His son, THE WORD, made flesh. That through believing in Christ and His atoning mercy, grace and love for each of, we can be saved from death and despair and by remaining in HIM we become a new creation, called to pursue holiness, justice and peace with all. You will find Marcus that I AM zealous in regards to protecting our young girls from the onslaught of destructive messages and lifestyles our culture indoctrinates them with at every turn. I guess only a zealot would work full time for one vocation, and then stay up until about 2:00AM each night to prepare for my work with the dance studio without compensation. I LOVE what God has called me to do. My husband LOVES what God has called me to do. Rather than despise me for what you perceive as my "roman leanings", I would COVET your prayers Marcus that God will continue to give me the grace to meet the needs of every public school student I have, every dance studio student, my husband, my children, my grandchildren and my aging parents and not lose sight of my goal ~ To see Christ. I would also appreciate your prayers Marcus for my 23 year old son who has been on dialysis for 3 years waiting for his 2nd kidney transplant, for my blind 30 year old daughter and her husband praying that she will not miscarry the precious baby she is carrying due to health complications and for my husband to be able to only have to work one job instead of three, which would allow him to establish the 20 something's Saturday Night Worship service he has felt led to start.

I think my ability to work and minister across denominational lines is a pretty good indication that I am not being held hostage by any single ideology or church. If you still believe that the Church I choose to express my deep love for Christ has taken me hostage, so be it.

[Rich Schmidt]

I think some folks should allow me a little bit of credibility here since my husband was on staff at this church. There certainly is a great deal more background information than what can be revealed here.

I'm sorry if you thought I was questioning your credibility. That wasn't my intent. Just pointing out how things work in the Nazarene structure.

I didn't know your husband is involved in this church or that you had any connection with it at all. All I knew was the little you had shared in your post.

(By the way, your post described it as one person holding the church hostage... which sounds very different than what you're saying now about the church board and prominent laypeople supporting the pastor's agenda. At least, I think that's what you're saying now. I can't tell if the board involvement you describe is in support of the pastor or leading the exodus.)

[Bob Hunter]

I find your comment in bold to be quite ironic given that you subscribe to Papal infallibility. Such a dodgma demands obedience to the Pope at all times, even in times of error. The second Vatican Council taught:
Not sure it's the Nazarene congregation being held "hostage" here.

I have a horrible confession Marcus. I have Roman leanings. Yeah, I grew up a Roman Catholic. My parents are still devout RCC folk who attend Mass and volunteer at a local parish. We've had priests come to our home. My favorite place for personal retreats is a monastery. I love to walk the stations of the cross. The list goes on. I don't ascribe to RCC dogma and I personally object to some of their practices. But I have deep roots in the RCC. So if you get on this Catholic bashing kick again, I'm going to be pushing back pretty hard.

One of my N.T. students equated the whore of Babylon in Rev. 17 with the RCC. As you can imagine, I nearly blew a gasket. So let's not go there Marcus, I think you are a good guy, but I really don't like the fact that you rip the RCC so often.

[Greg Farra]

Paragragh 160.5 of the Manual deals with the role of associates when a senior pastor resigns and a new one comes in. The associate can be recommended to be hired again, but only if the new pastor wants it. I know that there may be other issues involved, but this is how it's supposed to work, at least in theory. Practice, however, is often a different story.

[Kami Tuenning]

Paragragh 160.5 of the Manual deals with the role of associates when a senior pastor resigns and a new one comes in. The associate can be recommended to be hired again, but only if the new pastor wants it. I know that there may be other issues involved, but this is how it's supposed to work, at least in theory. Practice, however, is often a different story.

We totally expected the new senior to determine his new staff. Coming from an AG background, that is also how they are structured. The difference being that the current senior did not change my husbands duties, instead he added to them, while stripping him of the part-time salary and official title of Pastor of Community Outreach. The congregation continued to refer to him as Pastor Bruce. Maybe that was the rub for the senior. Nevertheless, when the young youth pastor resigned 3 months after he took the call, the senior declined the wishes of the parents and youth who requested my husband (with years of experience), instead setting up a rotational weekly leadership team made up of parents and other assorted sundry of adults. The former pastor had called my husband for his gifting of leading Spirit-led blended worship. The new senior only does hymns. Having a formal music background my husband was able to accommodate those wishes. The majority of the congregation wanted to keep blended worship. Not an option. The senior pastor also assigned the young youth pastor as "Worship Pastor" even though he could not read music but was expected to transpose music and lead accomplished musicians. The poor guy had trouble at every level from a musical perspective and it was an epic fail. This is probably why the guy left. I could go on but what is the point? It is what it is. My husband is a former agricultural CEO/Bank President, titles aren't too important ~ he is just led by the great need set before him. I married a winner that is for sure!

Finally, I have had a strange sense that this senior may be a Naznet voyeur, as my husbands fall from grace came suspiciously close to the time I discovered Naznet. What I was hoping to find at Naznet at the time was some conversation close to this: http://wesleyananglican.blogspot.com...cramental.html , which had really piqued our interest during this period and seemed to be a perfect middle-ground for my husband and I. I wish we had lived in greater proximity to Nazarene's such as this, because I truly miss being my husband's helpmate in ministry and the work I did with children.

[Kami Tuenning]

I'm sorry if you thought I was questioning your credibility. That wasn't my intent. Just pointing out how things work in the Nazarene structure.

I didn't know your husband is involved in this church or that you had any connection with it at all. All I knew was the little you had shared in your post.

(By the way, your post described it as one person holding the church hostage... which sounds very different than what you're saying now about the church board and prominent laypeople supporting the pastor's agenda. At least, I think that's what you're saying now. I can't tell if the board involvement you describe is in support of the pastor or leading the exodus.)

I have been under such an attack of ill health and lack of sleep lately, most of what I write may very well not make a lot of sense! I am thankful I have a place to vent with mature christian's who won't hold it against you the next day : ) Not that it matters, but for clarification, I meant to describe that the board which called this pastor (who by the way was hired to be the demographic consultant under the former pastor) was made up of very well-qualified men and women. It was these concerned persons that in part led the final exodus, although as the stats show, there had been some decline as far back as 2008 when a pastor who had been leading for 6 years moved on (we were friends of them) and the pastor who followed him took the helm. It was this transitional pastor who called my husband. He unexpectedly left for MO. shortly after we came on. Sounds like Peyton Place. I think I will just leave it at that-I think getting back to the purpose of this thread, yes this guy is a control freak who thinks programming is the solution to everything. It doesn't matter that the men he is exhorting to "man-up" are on the average 75 and older-he probably just read a book that suggested this is the problem with the declining number of men in the church and thought-"This will fix the problem".

[Rich Schmidt]

What I was hoping to find at Naznet at the time was some conversation close to this: http://wesleyananglican.blogspot.com...cramental.html , which had really piqued our interest during this period and seemed to be a perfect middle-ground for my husband and I. I wish we had lived in greater proximity to Nazarene's such as this, because I truly miss being my husband's helpmate in ministry and the work I did with children.

Where are you located, Tami? And what would you be looking for in worship that would help it feel like a "middle ground" for you?

I ask in part because I'm curious if you would like our church. We celebrate communion every Sunday, pray the Lord's prayer together, and have a couple other traditional call-and-responses during the service ("The Peace of the Lord be with you" / "And also with you"). We're getting ready to do Ashes to Fire, which means we'll be following the lectionary and having people read the OT, epistle, and gospel readings in worship each week. But that's not normal for us.

A couple other links, in case you haven't found them already:
http://www.facebook.com/groups/sacramentalnazarenes/
http://nazareneliturgy.org/

[Greg Farra]

Rich, I am going to ask you and all Naznetters to refrain from talking about Ashes to Fire. We're not doing it, and I'm insanely jealous!!! You can see from my avatar that I'm green with envy!!!

[Rich Schmidt]

Rich, I am going to ask you and all Naznetters to refrain from talking about Ashes to Fire. We're not doing it, and I'm insanely jealous!!! You can see from my avatar that I'm green with envy!!!

We didn't get to do it last year, as we were in the midst of a year-long Bible walkthru. I'm grateful we get to try it this year. So... maybe next year for you guys?

[Marcus Kibbe]

Marcus, I find it very sad the way you "size-up" a person based upon their theology.

Tami, I haven't "sized you up". I sense and hear a genuineness when reading your posts and have never once thought of you as any less than a faithful sister-in-Christ. As far as "sizing up your theology"... I'm guilty as charged. Whether explicitly or implicitly, the overwhelming majority of your posts have oozed RCC dogma. I admit, it may be a stretch to infer that Catholics are "held hostage" due to Papal infallibility dogma but what you were saying appeared ironically contradictory in light of it. It is true that I find Papal infallibility to be absolutely preposterous. Wherever infallibility may reside, it is quite clear it does not exist with the Pope. Popes have, by decrees contradicted themselves and each other and history abounds with examples of such contradictions. But this has nothing to do with you personally, but rather the RCC doctrines you have chosen to submit to.

[Greg Farra]

We didn't get to do it last year, as we were in the midst of a year-long Bible walkthru. I'm grateful we get to try it this year. So... maybe next year for you guys?

That is a possibility. I may be more involved in worship planning next year, and we're starting to use the lectionary more often.

[Greg Farra]

We got one complimentary copy of 'Ashes to Fire' from NPH, so I'm getting it.

[Susan Unger]

Here is a response to Piper from Ben Witherington - Men and Ministry

[Bob Hunter]

Here is a response to Piper from Ben Witherington - Men and Ministry

I agree with many of his points, but I thought the piece had a generally defensive tone. It does not acknowledge the underlying reason we are having this conversation in the first place. The topic of masculine spirituality is not going away. The Church and especially the Church of the Nazarene needs to do a better job of defining the true nature of a man.

[Shea Zellweger]

Here is a response to Piper from Ben Witherington - Men and Ministry

Brilliant response. Exactly what needed to be said, and thoughtfully established. There's just no way to add to it.

[Rich Schmidt]

I agree with many of his points, but I thought the piece had a generally defensive tone. It does not acknowledge the underlying reason we are having this conversation in the first place. The topic of masculine spirituality is not going away. The Church and especially the Church of the Nazarene needs to do a better job of defining the true nature of a man.

Do you mean to say that you disagree with Ben Witherington about what the underlying reason for the conversation is? Because he gives what he sees as the underlying reason in his second paragraph:

John Piper is concerned, as are other Reformed writers and thinkers, for instance some in the Gospel Coalition, with what is perceived to be the stripping of male dignity and honor in our culture. He seeks to rub some healing balm in the wounds of men who have been assailed about their male chauvinism and macho approaches to women and life in general, especially in this case, men who are ministers. But as I have mentioned before on this blog, the problem with the church is not strong women, but weak men who can’t handle strong women, much less tolerate women in ministry. So, they have to provide rationales for these views. And to do so requires all sorts of exegetical gymnastics, ignoring of contexts, and even dubious theology and anthropology.

It didn't feel defensive to me. It felt like a strong statement of correction.

What do you see as the underlying reason for the conversation, Bob?

[Bob Hunter]

Do you mean to say that you disagree with Ben Witherington about what the underlying reason for the conversation is? Because he gives what he sees as the underlying reason in his second paragraph:


It didn't feel defensive to me. It felt like a strong statement of correction.

What do you see as the underlying reason for the conversation, Bob?

I should clarify that. There are a multitude of issues that come into play, and I almost hate it when the conversation ends up focusing on one aspect like "weak men" or the church is feminized (it is to some extent). To say weak men who can't handle strong women is the problem just irks me. (It's the worst line in the whole piece and hence the reason why I called it defensive). I do overall think that our neglect of what's in a real man has hurt us tremendously. We are being squeezed into the world's mold. Men don't want much to do with the Church these days and I think we can do something about it positively without ripping on men and calling them "insecure" or chauvinists. That is exactly what we don't need, in fact, that is the kind of rhetoric that will drive them away... Even though I agree with the blogger theologically, I don't like his defensive tone and the rhetoric will not help us in any constructive way.

[Sarah Smith]

It never ceases to amaze me that some men are concerned with whether or not church appeals to the male ego or personality and decry it's feminization.

Good grief, from the female point of view it is usually run as just another old boys club, giving the guys what they want and need without concern for what makes a woman a real woman.

I dare say if we went through the articles and posts and flipped the terms for males and females, a lot of the Piper supporters would flip their wigs.

[Tami Martin]

I'm going to go do some looking, but I read a blog post the other day that suggested that the temperment/personality/habits of educated men is what it a problem. The problem, according to the blogger, was one of education.

edited to add:

Experimantal Theology

This is the blog.

[Bob Hunter]

It never ceases to amaze me that some men are concerned with whether or not church appeals to the male ego or personality and decry it's feminization.

Good grief, from the female point of view it is usually run as just another old boys club, giving the guys what they want and need without concern for what makes a woman a real woman.

I dare say if we went through the articles and posts and flipped the terms for males and females, a lot of the Piper supporters would flip their wigs.

Well, the only problem Sarah is the fact that a lot of women actually support the idea of the Church having a masculine feel. David Murrow wrote on this subject because WOMEN demanded it. The Eldridges wrote the book, Captivating because WOMEN demanded it. So I would encourage to look no farther than your own gender.

I started this thread by saying that I do not support Piper's hyper-masculinity. But I do support an effort to appeal to men and better define manhood in the context of the local Church. And on a practical level, I can't stand the aesthetics of some churches, when the men's bathroom looks no different than a powder room (but with urinals), you have a pretty good clue. Not to mention decor, sermon topics, media, etc. Very sterile if you ask me.

[Sarah Smith]

How should the men's bathrooms be decorated in a church? Do the men that don't like them step up to the plate and offer to decorate them?

How many women would be turned off by a church sanctuary done up in early caveman, or decorated in john deer green and yellow?

Have any of the one's decrying the wussification of the church stopped to think how turned off women are by yet another football based sermon?

[Tami Martin]

Have any of the one's decrying the wussification of the church stopped to think how turned off women are by yet another football based sermon?

Preach it, sister!

[Bob Hunter]

How should the men's bathrooms be decorated in a church? Do the men that don't like them step up to the plate and offer to decorate them?

How many women would be turned off by a church sanctuary done up in early caveman, or decorated in john deer green and yellow?

Have any of the one's decrying the wussification of the church stopped to think how turned off women are by yet another football based sermon?

Well Sarah, you have a some vaild points. Just a side note, women are huge NFL fans these days. When my son wears his Tim Tebow NFL Jersey, he has scores of women comment.

I expect the men's restroom to be well....manly. I don't want to see floral prints and mauve colors. How about a Harley Davidson toilet?

[Jim Chabot]

Have any of the one's decrying the wussification of the church stopped to think how turned off women are by yet another football based sermon?

A football based sermon? At first I thought you were joking, but I guess not.

That's a get up and walk out somewhere in the middle for me.

Football based? Nope, not happening for me, I've got better things to do on a Sunday, like go to church.

[Jim Chabot]

It didn't feel defensive to me. It felt like a strong statement of correction.

Weak men who can't handle strong women

If that isn't defensive, then what is.

[Jim Chabot]

I'm going to go do some looking, but I read a blog post the other day that suggested that the temperment/personality/habits of educated men is what it a problem. The problem, according to the blogger, was one of education.

edited to add:

Experimantal Theology

This is the blog.

Wow! That was good stuff Tami. I think he nailed it.

Although it's still to each his or her own. Different folks feel comfortable in different settings.

I must admit that my affinity to the blog is probable traceable to how easily I get annoyed listening to feminized men.

[Paul DeBaufer]

Well Sarah, you have a some vaild points. Just a side note, women are huge NFL fans these days. When my son wears his Tim Tebow NFL Jersey, he has scores of women comment.

I expect the men's restroom to be well....manly. I don't want to see floral prints and mauve colors. How about a Harley Davidson toilet?
Attachment 3415

That's as wussified as any "feminine" floral decorated bathroom.

[Bob Hunter]

That's as wussified as any "feminine" floral decorated bathroom.

What would be more masculine? Spikes on the toilet seat? Sand paper to wipe with?

[Paul DeBaufer]

What would be more masculine? Spikes on the toilet seat? Sand paper to wipe with?

How about just a plain white toilet, no decorations, no frills

[Greg Farra]

How about just a plain white toilet, no decorations, no frills

A magazine rack would be nice- SI, Popular Mechanics, Holiness Today, for starters.

[Shea Zellweger]

How about just a plain white toilet, no decorations, no frills

idunno, I'd prefer a nice black porcelain toilet. Of course, I'd prefer all my appliances be black...

[Bob Hunter]

A magazine rack would be nice- SI, Popular Mechanics, Holiness Today, for starters.

When I was pastoring a few years ago, we actually did several such things when we promoted our sports banquet (which we invited women too). We had head mounts, fishing poles, posters and outdoor magazines. It was great. I've been known to bring motorcycles right up to the platform to promote a special event. I think these things may be merely aesthetic in nature, but they certainly help create an appeal and an environment that men can feel comfortable in.

[Bill Morrison]

What would be more masculine? Spikes on the toilet seat? Sand paper to wipe with?

More masculine? How about no doors on the stalls like in my freshman dorm at Olivet.

BILL

[Paul DeBaufer]

More masculine? How about no doors on the stalls like in my freshman dorm at Olivet.

BILL

Or no stalls, just toilets out in the open and next to each other like in men's prisons

[Cam Pence]

Or no stalls, just toilets out in the open and next to each other like in men's prisons

Well if that makes you manly, then consider me.....not manly

[Bob Hunter]

Well if that makes you manly, then consider me.....not manly

Oh and you must be one of those guys that pees sitting down. Holy smokes, we're getting so pampered.

[Paul DeBaufer]

Well if that makes you manly, then consider me.....not manly

Uh yeah, me too