Would you follow Jesus if there were no eternal reward?

[Kyle Borger]

Are we selling Heaven in an attempt to get people to commit to Jesus? Are preachers nothing more than ticket sellers for a ride on the Jesus train with the final destination being Heaven?

It seems that many now worship Heaven rather than Christ. If Christ is our master then should we not follow without hope of reward? Should we not sacrifice, should we not suffer because we love and are loved?

I propose that Christ become our primary focus. The primary purpose of Christian life is becoming a bond slave to Christ whom we accept as our master.

Those who seem intent on Heaven seem to use Christ rather than be used by Christ. Those intent on Heaven seem to figure out the rules rather than the relationship.

What is your opinion? How many do you think would claim to be a Christian if there were no hope of a reward later? What if serving Christ meant living as we currently live forever except that Jesus is our true master?

This is not meant to make Heaven less than it is or to suggest it does not exist. But why is it necessary for us to put our hope in heaven rather than in Christ? It seems to suggest that happiness, peace, and joy can't be found until after we are dead. I suggest that with Christ; joy, peace, and happiness can be had even in the face of extreme suffering.

[Bill Morrison]

Perhaps I am missing what you are trying to say. I fully expect some may misinterpret what I am going to say.
To be blunt: if there is no eternal reward, Christ is a fraud. Why should one live by the Golden Rule, love one's enemies, etc. if the one who taught us that is deluded and has misled us about other rather important things? I think the whole package (OT and NT) needs to be accepted for the important truth it is. I don't know how we can separate the (hopefully) obvious desire we have to love and serve our master here from our glorious hope of being with him forever.
I don't think it is accurate to say we put our hope in heaven RATHER than in Christ (at least I hope it isn't accurate). The two are inseparable. I think the immense number of martyrs would have something to say here. I'm with Paul (I Corinthians 15:19) on this.

Bill

[Benjamin Burch]

"But even if you don't...."

[Doug Ward]

Yes. This is especially true since I don't "know" what any reward looks like, or if there is any one at all. I think there may be, at times I am certain of it, but I do not really know. I guess I believe it only by faith.

[John Dahl]

Without the component of reward I don't believe anyone would serve Christ. We are hard wired to act out of self interest, whether it was present pre-fall or as the result of the fall I don't know. I am not claiming that Heaven is the reward, although it might be for some people, that cause folks to serve Christ. What I believe is that our human self interest motivation is satisfied through that which Kyle alluded to in the opening post, that is the joy, peace, happiness, and contentment that is derived from being a disciple of Christ.

If there were no heaven after this life, the benefits of serving Christ in this life would still make this walk of faith worthwhile.

[Randy Wise]

Jesus would not have rescued us by His blood if we have no eternal life so without eternal life you have no Jesus. Its not a easy question in the context of Jesus.

I do love my Mother and its not for a reward. Likewise Jesus equated obedience with Love for Him. So maybe without "Love" for God or if you love something more than God you won't obey regardless of eternal life that has been offered.

As Jesus asked Peter "Do you love me?" To me, that's the proper person asking with the proper question.

Even so Jesus seemed to promote a family unit, that is Heavenly Father to Son or Heavenly Father to daughter not slave to master.

Randy

[Kyle Borger]

Yes, I understand the issue that Jesus is eternal life and that believing in Jesus means believing in eternal life. The two are impossible to separate. Perhaps that makes my point. Why do we have Christians that live as if there is no Jesus and expect to live eternally? What I have told my children is that if you focus on serving Christ you will have Heaven, but you won't necessarily have Christ if you focus on Heaven.

I have witnessed Christians or those who claim to be Christians trying to do just enough to be ok. They live a life of worry and concern that they won't be accepted into Heaven. Why? Because they are worried about Heaven rather than serving Christ.

Thus my point and my question. I'm not trying to separate the two theologically or even practically.

But why is it that so many talk about Heaven and so few really follow Christ. My question is meant to ponder if we haven't focused on the wrong thing as a church.

[Paul DeBaufer]

Without the component of reward I don't believe anyone would serve Christ. We are hard wired to act out of self interest, whether it was present pre-fall or as the result of the fall I don't know. I am not claiming that Heaven is the reward, although it might be for some people, that cause folks to serve Christ. What I believe is that our human self interest motivation is satisfied through that which Kyle alluded to in the opening post, that is the joy, peace, happiness, and contentment that is derived from being a disciple of Christ.

If there were no heaven after this life, the benefits of serving Christ in this life would still make this walk of faith worthwhile.

You would be mistaken if your statement is universal. I serve Christ without any thought of posthumous reward. I sure don't get one here and now with the exception that I am doing what is right. For the person being transformed that should be all the reward that is necessary. Now I probably agree that for many, maybe even the majority your statement applies, but not for all.

[Cam Pence]

Are we selling Heaven in an attempt to get people to commit to Jesus? Are preachers nothing more than ticket sellers for a ride on the Jesus train with the final destination being Heaven?

It seems that many now worship Heaven rather than Christ. If Christ is our master then should we not follow without hope of reward? Should we not sacrifice, should we not suffer because we love and are loved?

I propose that Christ become our primary focus. The primary purpose of Christian life is becoming a bond slave to Christ whom we accept as our master.

Those who seem intent on Heaven seem to use Christ rather than be used by Christ. Those intent on Heaven seem to figure out the rules rather than the relationship.

What is your opinion? How many do you think would claim to be a Christian if there were no hope of a reward later? What if serving Christ meant living as we currently live forever except that Jesus is our true master?

This is not meant to make Heaven less than it is or to suggest it does not exist. But why is it necessary for us to put our hope in heaven rather than in Christ? It seems to suggest that happiness, peace, and joy can't be found until after we are dead. I suggest that with Christ; joy, peace, and happiness can be had even in the face of extreme suffering.

I have to agree with Ben here (love that song). The account of Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego rings true here. Their faith in God was not based on what God could do for them but simply who God is.

[Steven Burton]

I would say I would still follow. I really don't care about the rewards as much as I care about my fellow man. When I read the old testament I really don't get a feel that they had an idea of everlasting life yet they are still called to the same ideology we are.

[Paul DeBaufer]

35But love your enemies, do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return. Your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High; for he is kind to the ungrateful and the wicked. 36Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.

Luke 6:35

If we are following and obeying to get the reward it seems that we cut ourselves off from said reward. We are to do with out expectation of any return/reward. Seems to me that we are to do good because it is the right thing to do, not because we will be rewarded either posthumously or here.

[Benjamin Burch]

You would be mistaken if your statement is universal. I serve Christ without any thought of posthumous reward. I sure don't get one here and now with the exception that I am doing what is right. For the person being transformed that should be all the reward that is necessary. Now I probably agree that for many, maybe even the majority your statement applies, but not for all.

I think you need to read John's post in its entirety.

I think John agrees with you, and spells out his entire thought which he developed throughout his post in this concise summary statement:

If there were no heaven after this life, the benefits of serving Christ in this life would still make this walk of faith worthwhile.

You both agree that Christians both should and do:

serve Christ without any thought of posthumous reward.

For John, the reward is here and now:

the benefits of serving Christ in this life

This seems similar to the theology of the Fourth Evangelist, placed on Jesus' lips:

And this is eternal life, that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.

While I am personally pondering the entirety of John's post, and contemplating the position from which he presented it, and the philosophy behind it, I cannot quite disagree with the conclusion. He seems, at least at the very core of it, correct.

We are rewarded for our service of Christ. We are rewarded with Peace, Joy, and Love.

With this I cannot disagree, and I heartily agree with John.

BTW: It has been about a year since I saw you, Paul. Thank you, again, for your hospitality and your companionship. I hope you are doing well, as we've not seen you around as much here as of late. I very much enjoyed my time with you.

[Susan Unger]

Are we selling Heaven in an attempt to get people to commit to Jesus? Are preachers nothing more than ticket sellers for a ride on the Jesus train with the final destination being Heaven?

It seems that many now worship Heaven rather than Christ. If Christ is our master then should we not follow without hope of reward? Should we not sacrifice, should we not suffer because we love and are loved?

I propose that Christ become our primary focus. The primary purpose of Christian life is becoming a bond slave to Christ whom we accept as our master.

Those who seem intent on Heaven seem to use Christ rather than be used by Christ. Those intent on Heaven seem to figure out the rules rather than the relationship.

What is your opinion? How many do you think would claim to be a Christian if there were no hope of a reward later? What if serving Christ meant living as we currently live forever except that Jesus is our true master?

This is not meant to make Heaven less than it is or to suggest it does not exist. But why is it necessary for us to put our hope in heaven rather than in Christ? It seems to suggest that happiness, peace, and joy can't be found until after we are dead. I suggest that with Christ; joy, peace, and happiness can be had even in the face of extreme suffering.

This is why I dislike the concept of appeals for salvation as "fire insurance". When salvation is presented as being a part of the Kingdom of Heaven/God it salvation has a totally different twist.

[Ryan Scott]

I don't think we live in a system of rewards and punishments - I don't believe God made the world this way.

I do believe God created the world to work a certain way and, of course, deviations from that way produce consequences.

I don't look at following God as a reward, it is simply being who I was created to be. Avoidance of consequences can't really be defined as reward. We only look at following God as a reward when we compare it to the alternative. Clearly less consequences are better than more consequences, but that doesn't automatically equate to reward.

I understand where that perspective comes from, but it's too narrowly focused and individualistic for my liking.

[Diane Likens]

For me, following Christ IS the reward. I'm loved and I love. What more could I need?

[Jim Chabot]

I have witnessed Christians or those who claim to be Christians trying to do just enough to be ok. They live a life of worry and concern that they won't be accepted into Heaven. Why? Because they are worried about Heaven rather than serving Christ.

I know lots and lots of folks like this, and many of them are long time Nazarenes. I must say that I also know a lot of long time Nazarenes who are not like this.

The ones that I know are worried about Heaven because they are scared, their service is one of fear. One thing that I have also noticed is that folks like this have almost always been brought up in the church. As youngsters they have been taught that God is an angry taskmaster who is peering over the parapets of heaven with a baseball bat just waiting to take a swing at them whenever they don't measure up. I've mentioned in other threads that we have been careful to keep our kids at a safe distance from the institution of the church. We have brought them to Sunday School, but only when we feel that we can trust the teacher, this hasn't been often.

We don't leave Heaven out of the equation when we speak with our kids, but we don't present it as something that must be earned, or gained, we present it somewhat matter of factly as a reality after death. Just as God is real and just as He loves us, Heaven is also real it isn't necessarily a reward or a prize. Heaven is the natural abode of those who love and serve God, exactly the same as the home they live in is their natural abode as our children.

To answer your question though. I must honestly say that I don't understand. It is what it is and I'm happy to serve, I don't see things so much in service=reward terms. My quest and curiosity has always been toward that of reality. What is real? Is God real? If so, then what is He like and how can I get to know Him. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad to hear of heaven, and I'm glad to hear of how we are rewarded here. And I'm glad to say that I have experienced His rewards here, I've trusted and found Him to be trustworthy. But I still can't answer your question, it just isn't relevant to me.

[Paul DeBaufer]

I think you need to read John's post in its entirety.

I think John agrees with you, and spells out his entire thought which he developed throughout his post in this concise summary statement:



You both agree that Christians both should and do:



For John, the reward is here and now:



This seems similar to the theology of the Fourth Evangelist, placed on Jesus' lips:



While I am personally pondering the entirety of John's post, and contemplating the position from which he presented it, and the philosophy behind it, I cannot quite disagree with the conclusion. He seems, at least at the very core of it, correct.

We are rewarded for our service of Christ. We are rewarded with Peace, Joy, and Love.

With this I cannot disagree, and I heartily agree with John.

BTW: It has been about a year since I saw you, Paul. Thank you, again, for your hospitality and your companionship. I hope you are doing well, as we've not seen you around as much here as of late. I very much enjoyed my time with you.

You are right I should have considered John's statement as a whole, my response was to the opening statement alone not to the entire post. I was merely trying to reference one instance where that single sentence didn't hold. I may well have worded my response poorly as I am prone to do.

[Jim Chabot]

I don't think we live in a system of rewards and punishments - I don't believe God made the world this way.

I do believe God created the world to work a certain way and, of course, deviations from that way produce consequences.

I don't look at following God as a reward, it is simply being who I was created to be. Avoidance of consequences can't really be defined as reward. We only look at following God as a reward when we compare it to the alternative. Clearly less consequences are better than more consequences, but that doesn't automatically equate to reward.

I understand where that perspective comes from, but it's too narrowly focused and individualistic for my liking.

Yeah! And what Ryan said!

[Scott Sherwood]

What would you say Paul was getting at in 1 Corinthians 15:19 when he said, "If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men."?

[Ryan Scott]

What would you say Paul was getting at in 1 Corinthians 15:19 when he said, "If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men."?

Paul here, I think, is referring specifically to people who deny a bodily resurrection (which, incidently, is the defacto position of most American Christians these days, who think we're all just going to be spirits in the sky someday).

In response to these people he says, basically, the way of Christ makes no sense if this life is all there is. The self-sacrifice, the unconditional love, the thinking of others before one's self, loving enemies, etc - is just crazy if there isn't something else.

It's not that we're expecting a reward, persay, but that we're expecting to live forever - so we're engaging in the life we'll be leading forever now. But this life doesn't make sense if we don't believe there will be an eternity.

He's saying we believe in something bigger than ourselves and more authoritative than the way the world around us appears to work. Jesus told us the world really works differently, but Jesus has no real credibility if he stays dead. Therefore there must be a resurrection.

[Kyle Borger]

Jim Chabot, I like your answer. I know you don't get why I would ask the question and that is positive.

When I talk to non-christians a common view is that Christianity is all about what happens after death and what you have to do to be ok when you die. To me that means we messed up the message somewhere.

Living eternally happens when you give Christ control of your life. It isn't something that happens when you die. Yes, that which is imperfect about us changes when we die because imperfection and dying bodies can't live forever, but our spirit becomes eternal when Christ is our Lord and Savior. Through our transformation in Christ we become perfected in becoming who God meant for us to be. Are there imperfect things that happen in our lives while still living? Yes.

But our responses, our living in love, our testimony of Christ are examples of eternal life. To have anyone think this is all about what happens when we die sells Jesus short. I guess that is a part of where it comes from..."Do you know where you will be if you die tonight?"

For some the entire Good News message got boiled down into a boiler plate question. How does you must choose Christ or die properly introduce anyone or the world to who Christ really is?

We see a world focused on finding a way to be ok when they die through Christ and other religions or no religion because that is how it was once presented. I don't want to die. What do I do? Rule based living. No one can live by the rules themselves. They fail. They give up.

I guess the point I wanted to make is that what we do, what we live for, the God we serve is not about later. God is about now. Why do we live for Christ? To get to Heaven? Wrong answer. We live for Christ because he saves us from our sins which allows us to live with Him eternally right now. You want to fix your life, get rid of the things that stand before you and Jesus right now.

My hope is that Jesus is enough. Yes. It is important that people live eternally with Jesus so that they will not be without the saving grace of Jesus when they die. But the concern isn't so that we get there before they die. The concern is so that they can live with Jesus right now. That they can be transformed and live for Jesus right now and help be an agent for Jesus to help others live with Christ right now.

[Benjamin Burch]

What would you say Paul was getting at in 1 Corinthians 15:19 when he said, "If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men."?

Paul was using his well-trained skills in rhetoric to make a point to a specific crowd.

[Dale Cozby]

If I was going to pick a religion based ONLY on the earthly rewards it offers with no hope of eternal life I would be a muslim. Then I could fight kill my enemies and those who insult my religion, have four wives that are submissive by law, lie, cheat and steal from the infidels and it would be easier to convert people since they only have to repeat the creed, be born a child of mine or marry me to become a muslim.

If not a muslim then I would be an atheist. If all there is, is a hope for a good life in the flesh here on earth, then we are truly fools.
Why surrender yourself to self-sacrifice, service to others, hardship, self-denial, ridicule, mockery, abuse, threats, torture, and death if there is nothing more than bein g happy and comfortable for a few years then dying and being no more?
Phooey on putting others first, and being a servant to others if that is all there is. Why follow a dead false prophet? But because I believe in the gospel, which is the resurrection, God's forgiveness and the hope of eternal life, then what Jesus did isn't foolish. He isn't just a dead prophet and founder of a religion. No if you take out the hope that we have then we are indeed just fools. The gospel is infact about the WAY, the TRUTH and the LIFE. Not just the WAY.


"resting on the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time"

"And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men." -Paul

" If the dead are not raised at all ...... why do we endanger ourselves every hour? ..If I fought wild beasts in Ephesus for merely human reasons, what have I gained? If the dead are not raised, “Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die.” - Paul

"For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." Saved from what to what? There is no salvation without the resurrection. It is fundamental to salvation.
No I have put my hope in Christ Jesus, not just a Jesus doer of good deeds. He is the Christ.

Remove the resurrection and the hope of eternal life and we become really just fools following a dead idealogue sucker and not fools for Christ.

[Benjamin Burch]

If I was going to pick a religion based ONLY on the earthly rewards it offers with no hope of eternal life I would be a muslim. Then I could fight kill my enemies and those who insult my religion, have four wives that are submissive by law, lie, cheat and steal from the infidels and it would be easier to convert people since they only have to repeat the creed, be born a child of mine or marry me to become a muslim.

My Muslim friend would disagree very strongly with about everything you've said.

[Dale Cozby]

Paul was using his well-trained skills in rhetoric to make a point to a specific crowd.

Yes he was talking to people who doubted the resurection and the hope of eternal life and much more. He was convincing doubters that self-sacrifice and hardship and death is worth it.

[Dale Cozby]

Without the component of reward I don't believe anyone would serve Christ.

If there was no resurrection then: “Some time ago Theudas appeared, claiming to be somebody, and about four hundred men rallied to him. He was killed, all his followers were dispersed, and it all came to nothing. After him, Judas the Galilean appeared in the days of the census and led a band of people in revolt. He too was killed, and all his followers were scattered. Therefore, in the present case I advise you: Leave these men alone! Let them go! For if their purpose or activity is of human origin, it will fail. But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God.” - Gamaliel discussing what to do with the men who claimed: "The God of our fathers raised Jesus from the dead"

If there was no resurrection then we wouldn't even be having this conversation because none of us would even know who Jesus was, except maybe if we read Josephus in school. There would be no Christian "faith" and the apostles would not have died the way they did.

[Dale Cozby]

My Muslim friend would disagree very strongly with about everything you've said.

Well that is good your muslim friend would disagree with me, I just wish ALL muslims would disagree with me. But the fact is a lot of them do agree with me.

[Dale Cozby]

Are we selling Heaven in an attempt to get people to commit to Jesus?
What if serving Christ meant living as we currently live forever except that Jesus is our true master?

why is it necessary for us to put our hope in heaven rather than in Christ? It seems to suggest that happiness, peace, and joy can't be found until after we are dead. I suggest that with Christ; joy, peace, and happiness can be had even in the face of extreme suffering.

Last thoughts on this....no we are not selling heaven. Eternal life(heaven or paradise) is a gift from God. Like many gifts it comes with some responsibilities once you own it.
Two, if serving Christ meant living in the midst of all the evil we see today like this forever, then it means suffering and dying over and over again in painful agony as a believer and that isn't living, it is dying. If being a Christian in this life means ease, comfort and warm fuzzies then you aren't being much of a Christian in this world today from what i tell about Christianity. If we take out all the evil and still serve others, then that is like heaven and it is no longer like living here. If evil exists forever and we have to endure it forever under a master who makes us surrender our all with NO REWARD and suffer under it forever, frankly hell and death start looking better.
If the opoosite of eternal life is eternal annihilation for those who do not receive eternal life, then that is actually a more loving end to this life than living in evil for all of eternity(forever) with a master that doesn't reward us with rest and peace just more suffering and strife.
Third, we don't put our hope in heaven, we put our hope in the one who promises heaven.
Fourth, the happiness, peace, and joy we have in this life pales compared to what we hope for. Happiness is fleeting, peace is rare, and joy comes from the hope sat before us.
Jesus endurd the cross for the joy set before him. What joy was that? Our salvation. Saved from what? evil and suffering

"If we are distressed, it is for your comfort and salvation...Indeed, in our hearts we felt the sentence of death. But this happened that we might not rely on ourselves but on God, who raises the dead." - Paul

Ben, if you are rewarded with all peace joy and love in this world, read this and consider where you stand:
"If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you. Remember the words I spoke to you: ‘No servant is greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also" - Jesus Christ

[Hans Deventer]

The thread reminds me of a story Peter Rollins told.

After the crucifiction, a group of disciples left Jerusalem and went to a very remote place. They lived there for many years, faithfully following the teachings of the Lord. Till one day, a christian on his journey found them out. He quickly learned they had never heard of the resurrection! So that night, the entire village came together to hear about all that happened after Jesus had risen from the death. All, but one. An elder left during the celebrations. After a while, the Christian noticed he had gone and went looking for him. He finally found him, weeping. "Why are you weeping?" he asked. "I've brought you great and wonderful news! Our Lord lives!" "Yes, our Lord lives", he replied, "But we have faithfully followed His teachings because For what they are - God's truth. Now, I fear people will follow them because of the reward."

[Jim Chabot]

What would you say Paul was getting at in 1 Corinthians 15:19 when he said, "If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men."?

Interesting. I've never viewed this passage as something that would be applicable in the context of an expected reward. I believe that Paul is speaking of validation and authentication here. Yes he does say that as Christ has risen we too shall rise, yet I'm not seeing denial of reward as his motivation toward the view that we are to be pitied.

I see Paul saying that if Christ was not raised then we are still in our sins. If Christ has not actually risen, then we follow a charlatain, a phony, a fool, a liar, heretic or whatever term best fits. If Christ has not risen then we have succumbed to the drumbeat of the mountebank and we should be pitied. He goes on to speak of the peril that awaits those who follow Christ, the risk their very lives. And for what? For if He is not risen, then His followers will have followed a false God. If He is not risen, then we need to return to Judaism. As to a present reward, Paul alludes to none, no promises are made. If Christ is not risen, then we are to be most pitied. Not that the world would pity us, rather that they should, because we would be total idiots. Not fools for Christ, more like fools with Christ! Paul makes the resurrection an absolute for without it Christianity is a farce.

Of course we can rejoice in the assurance that the resurrection actually did happen. It is a historical event of which we can be sure. A thinking person examining the evidence must conclude that the preponderance of the evidence is present in the resurrection story. It happened!

History also tells us that those who chose to remain in Judaism despite the resurrection were truly the ones deserving of pity. That 70's show, turned out to be a grisly event for them.

[Jim Chabot]

Well that is good your muslim friend would disagree with me, I just wish ALL muslims would disagree with me. But the fact is a lot of them do agree with me.

Agreed. I only have a couple of Muslim friends, although I probably should call them acquaintances since we are instructed to not allow them in our homes. Both of them tell me that their religion offers them a better deal than does ours.

[Jim Chabot]

"We are rewarded with Peace, Joy, and Love"? Give me a break. Paul says the complete opposite in 1 Cor. 15. Enough of your pious twaddle. Paul would scoff at the idea that if Jesus was not raised from the dead, then at least he was rewarded with "Peace, Joy, and Love". A quiet, comfortable, ordinary life of human delights, and no God, can also be one of "Peace, Joy, and Love". This begs the question, if there is no resurrection, but the "reward" is still worth it for you, what's to be pitied with your lifestyle?

Absolutely right! The part you have bolded is key "AND NO GOD" is most assuredly the point! I know plenty of folks who live lives filled with peace, joy and love and yet are hopelessly lost without Christ. While I am glad for the peace, joy and love that comes with knowing Christ. I am also well aware that while this is provided for us, it is also somewhat common for folks to accidentally stumble upon them on their own.

[Hans Deventer]

Agreed. I only have a couple of Muslim friends, although I probably should call them acquaintances since we are instructed to not allow them in our homes. Both of them tell me that their religion offers them a better deal than does ours.

Perhaps, but how long do 72 virgins last?

[Jim Chabot]

Perhaps, but how long do 72 virgins last?

From my limited experience, I'm thinking that they like their deal here on this side better than ours. Or I should say that they think that their deal is better, I wouldn't agree that it is either better for them or anyone else on the planet.

I'm guessing that they must think the 72 virgins last forever. I mean why not? If you are going to peddle empty promises, then make them big empty promises, the sky's the limit!

[Hans Deventer]

I'm guessing that they must think the 72 virgins last forever. I mean why not?

Well, if they have to remain virgins, I wonder if they are a reward or rather a temptation

[Greg Farra]

"We are rewarded with Peace, Joy, and Love"? Give me a break. Paul says the complete opposite in 1 Cor. 15. Enough of your pious twaddle. Paul would scoff at the idea that if Jesus was not raised from the dead, then at least he was rewarded with "Peace, Joy, and Love". A quiet, comfortable, ordinary life of human delights, and no God, can also be one of "Peace, Joy, and Love". This begs the question, if there is no resurrection, but the "reward" is still worth it for you, what's to be pitied with your lifestyle?

I don't think peace love and joy is pious twiddle. I think it's here for us now in Christ, and will be for all eternity if we are his.

[Doug Ward]

Absolutely right! The part you have bolded is key "AND NO GOD" is most assuredly the point! I know plenty of folks who live lives filled with peace, joy and love and yet are hopelessly lost without Christ.

Jim, this is certainly a confusing statement, to say the least. In light of Romans 2, and what Paul calls proof of God's presence in Galatians 5, I am not sure how lives filled with peace, joy and love can be described as lost. It seems you are describing a propositional statement to believe, instead of a life to be lived, and a presence to be enjoyed.

[Dale Cozby]

The thread reminds me of a story Peter Rollins told.

After the crucifiction, a group of disciples left Jerusalem and went to a very remote place. They lived there for many years, faithfully following the teachings of the Lord. Till one day, a christian on his journey found them out. He quickly learned they had never heard of the resurrection! So that night, the entire village came together to hear about all that happened after Jesus had risen from the death. All, but one. An elder left during the celebrations. After a while, the Christian noticed he had gone and went looking for him. He finally found him, weeping. "Why are you weeping?" he asked. "I've brought you great and wonderful news! Our Lord lives!" "Yes, our Lord lives", he replied, "But we have faithfully followed His teachings because For what they are - God's truth. Now, I fear people will follow them because of the reward."

Which book of the Bble is this account in and I will go read it. I would like to know more of this lost tribe of Christians.

I have a story: "When Jesus heard this, he was astonished and said to those following him, “I tell you the truth, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith. I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. "

" Jesus said to them, “I tell you the truth, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life."

[Jim Chabot]

Well, if they have to remain virgins, I wonder if they are a reward or rather a temptation

Who said that they have to remain virgins? I'm thinking that they believe in magic, after all.

I like the thought though, perpetual temptation, that's not really a good thing is it?

[Jim Chabot]

Jim, this is certainly a confusing statement, to say the least. In light of Romans 2, and what Paul calls proof of God's presence in Galatians 5, I am not sure how lives filled with peace, joy and love can be described as lost. It seems you are describing a propositional statement to believe, instead of a life to be lived, and a presence to be enjoyed.

Not sure how to explain it then. I know a bunch of folks who are contented, loving and incredibly gracious. They truly can claim to have peace, joy and love, while at the same time they will tell you flat out that there is no God. They will clearly tell you that we should make the very best out of this present life because after this is the "dirt nap." They will tell you straight out that Christianity is a fairy tale, something for weak people to hold on to for solace.

You didn't quote me entirely. I made sure to include the reality of this life to be lived and His presence to enjoy. But let's not pretend that peace, joy and love are exclusive to those who belong to Him. At least not in an unqualified sense.