A poll for pastors

[Dave McClung]

I started to make this post a poll, but I knew how the poll would turn out. The poll question would have been: "Do you do a good job of ministering to the wealthy people associated with your church?" Most of the pastors I know do a great job of ministering to the poor -- the poorer the better. Most don't do as well ministering to the wealthy. Many times, they don't even realize who the wealthy people are.

I am aware of several instances when people died and left multi-million dollar estates and no one in their church even knew they were wealthy.

If I understand the scripture correctly, people who are wealthy need to be generous -- not because the church needs their money. They need to be generous for their own spiritual health. An effective pastor will identify who in the congregation needs encouragement toward generosity.

Several times I have recommended the book, "The Millionaire Next Door." Jeremy Scott just pointed out to me that it is now available on Amazon for $2.99 as a Kindle download -- even cheaper if you buy a used copy in print. This book will help a pastor have a better understanding of who is wealty and who isn't. The book is several years od, so the data is not current. Still, I believe the insights would be helpful to pastors.

http://www.amazon.com/Millionaire-Ne...ZZXJJGY71C11C8

[John Reilly]

The Head Trustee of my church was a subcontractor for a millionaire builder. He and his wife would attend our church for special outreach events. Our Dare to Care ministry would "touch" them with visits, phone calls, and notes. When their health began to fail I would be called to visit them in the hospital. They were comforted by the prayers and began to affirm that I would be the one who do their funerals. In the last years of their life they attended church more often. Both of their funerals were held n our church. They both appreciated my ministry to them as did their family. They did not tithe. After death the church received some money gifts in their memory. Most of their wealth went to their family. I sometime wonder if I been a better Pastor to them they may have left their wealth to the church.

[Rich Schmidt]

The difficulty is that, as The Millionaire Next Door points out, it's not always apparent when a person is extremely wealthy. I have no idea what the net worth is of most of the people in my congregation, because they haven't volunteered that information, and I haven't asked. Sure, as I get to know a person, I usually find out more about what they do for a living, how they spend their money, how they invest, etc. Some people are more open about financial issues... but many are not.

[Dennis M. Scott]

The monetarily wealthiest man I have pastored would never have been picked out as such. As we do this thread, he is about to die. He will be buried in the polyester liesure suit he bought in the seventies. He has been a very effective steward of the Lord's finances, and he has put most of it in the Church of the Nazarene. I was not an effective pastor to him. I was one in a long series of such pastors.

[David Snodgrass]

I started to make this post a poll, but I knew how the poll would turn out. The poll question would have been: "Do you do a good job of ministering to the wealthy people associated with your church?" Most of the pastors I know do a great job of ministering to the poor -- the poorer the better. Most don't do as well ministering to the wealthy. Many times, they don't even realize who the wealthy people are.

I am aware of several instances when people died and left multi-million dollar estates and no one in their church even knew they were wealthy.

If I understand the scripture correctly, people who are wealthy need to be generous -- not because the church needs their money. They need to be generous for their own spiritual health. An effective pastor will identify who in the congregation needs encouragement toward generosity.

Several times I have recommended the book, "The Millionaire Next Door." Jeremy Scott just pointed out to me that it is now available on Amazon for $2.99 as a Kindle download -- even cheaper if you buy a used copy in print. This book will help a pastor have a better understanding of who is wealty and who isn't. The book is several years od, so the data is not current. Still, I believe the insights would be helpful to pastors.

http://www.amazon.com/Millionaire-Ne...ZZXJJGY71C11C8

I'm probably a little more financially involved than most pastors. Probably due to my background in management with a para-church organization. In my former life I was a director at a YMCA.

As a pastor, we're called to be "stewards" of many aspects of the church, one of which, is the financial health of the church. Within about 15 minutes of conversation I can make an assessment of someone's financial situation. This doesn't meant that I treat anyone differently. I am available to the member who doesn't tithe just as much as I do to the one who does tithe. 9 times out of 10, non-tithing members are more "needy" for pastoral attention anyway.

I don't treat anyone differently, but my conversation may be different. To those who give significantly, I go out of my way to let them know that I strive to be a good steward of the church's resources. Most wealthy people are leery to give to a church because in most cases churches don't know what to do with money. Those who have the ability to give above and beyond the tithe need to know that the church will be a good steward of it and will have a plan in place in how significant gifts will impact the community for Jesus Christ.

To answer the question. I feel like I minister to both the wealthy and the poor in a satisfacotry manner. That being said, my church doesn't really have any "wealthy" folks. I may have one family who makes over 100k. I have several who make 60k-90k, but the majority are probably in that 35k-50 range.

[Hans Deventer]

I was not an effective pastor to him. I was one in a long series of such pastors.

What is an effective pastor, Dennis?

[David Graham]

I know of wealthy person in our church (certainly not a multi-millionarie though) who I have built a close friendship with. I find that the best way I can minister to him is through regular visitation...... i.e to be a confidential person he can bounce concerns and ideas off and to pray with, and one who is certainly not trying to ingratiate himself to him for the purpose of getting some of his money. In fact, I never talk church or personal money concerns with him...... yet he's not ignorant of the needs of the church and it's mission programmes and I am aware that he contributes generously to those needs....... many times anonamously.

[Mike Schutz]

We do not have anyone in our congregation who would be considered wealthy by US standards (the persons who have the most money in our congregation are mid-level managers). Anyone who is "middle class" in our church - or even with a college education - is making a conscious choice to worship in a fellowship of folks the vast majority of whom are at best making it "paycheck to paycheck." There have been Sundays in which half of the men in our Men's Sunday school class are unemployed. One of the things I as pastor must watch, is that those who are in a position to hire or assist others in finding a job can be overwhelmed with the dynamics of their relationships with men needing jobs.

I am also reminded of this quote by Martin Luther. I do not take this as negating the importance of ministering to those with wealth, but of the focus necessary when you are dealing with real human pain and suffering:
"When I preach I regard neither doctors nor magistrates, of which I have above forty in the congregation; I have all my eyes on the servant maids and the children. And if the learned men are not well pleased with what they hear, well, the door is open." -Martin Luther

[Kevin Rector]

I would say that I do a good job of ministering to the wealthy in my church. One of the most pressing issues for many wealthy people is work/life balance. Sometimes folks get wealthy because they work too much and they need help balancing out their lives. Personal soul care is also very important. When work/life balance is tilted too much to the office often the wealthy person neglects time for personal spiritual disciplines.

Another component with wealthy people is that I try not to waste their time with frivolous things, quite frankly their time is valuable. But I also do try to help them understand their time is not only monetarily valuable but relationally valuable as well. So I do try and spend time with them in fellowship and such to let them know how much I value their presence in my life.

Also, wealthy people are often driven, thrifty, intelligent, educated, and disciplined. So they can be (when they have a good work/life balance and are spiritually mature) a major benefit to the leadership in the church. However, there is a danger for wealthy people to commodify the church and the people in it - so it's important to keep the stories of mission and the vision of the church in front of the wealthy people at all times.

[Craig Laughlin]

I would say I do not do a good job of ministering to wealthy people as a group. (I think my general ministry to people is good) The reason I say this is I'm not even sure how to evaluate my performance even after reading some of the books mentioned. My general rule of thumb is "If I don't know what I don't know, then I'm probably not doing a very good job" and since I don't know even how to evaluate I think I can say I don't know.

I'm still grappling with bringing together what I read about ministering to this group and my theology. I appreciate the symmetry of ministering to the poor verses ministering to the rich as they represent opposite ends of the economic spectrum but theologically they are different. Jesus goes out of his way to speak to the business of ministering to the poor and we are cautioned about pitfalls of ministering to the rich. - (Not to say we don't minister to the rich, clearly Jesus and the early church did that.) I'm just still sorting it all out in my mind. My last church only had a couple of people who I would call rich and a few middle class folks. The couple of rich people were very generous and did not seek power because of their wealth. It was way to easy for me. I am discovering that just like poor people, not all rich people relate to money in the same way... - Learning...

[Billy Cox]

I sometime wonder if I been a better Pastor to them they may have left their wealth to the church.

Just a quick reply to say I appreciate this level of vulnerability.

[Ryan Scott]

My interactions with the wealthy (and again I'm going to judge this by people who have money to give at any time, without necessarily knowing the income of financial situation) and the congregation seems to be that they're ready and willing to give when they see a real need that makes sense financially to them. They're also ready to give when others partner with them.

I've never seen someone say, "we need a new roof, here's the money for it," I have seen people say, "take an offering for the new roof and I'll make up the difference," or "Here's half the money to rehab the teen room, let me know when we've got the other half."

Now, I have two responses to these simple observations - one is positive, there is a sense not of charity, but of generosity - it isn't a gift as much as a partnership from someone with available resources. This is great. It often reflects a good view of giving and participation in the body.

The second observation is that, at times, this can be a challenge to the leadership of the congregation. If the board prioritizes an expense that the wealthy person doesn't favor, they may not participate at all - or use a large gift as incentive to prioritize a project they deem more worthy. Again, this isn't universal, but I've seen it more than once.

At what level do we trust the leadership of the congregation we've chosen to live in and with? When does our individual decision-making trump participation? There is no hard and fast line here, but it is certainly an issue that comes into play in these situations (and with other members who have considerably less to give).

I ask myself the question - am I throwing my lot in with these people only as far as I trust them or is this a commitment to life together? I may be willing to commit my words to a decision I disagree with - am I willing to commit my money? Is that even a requirement for life together in a congregation?

[Billy Cox]

I'm still grappling with bringing together what I read about ministering to this group and my theology. I appreciate the symmetry of ministering to the poor verses ministering to the rich as they represent opposite ends of the economic spectrum but theologically they are different. Jesus goes out of his way to speak to the business of ministering to the poor and we are cautioned about pitfalls of ministering to the rich. - (Not to say we don't minister to the rich, clearly Jesus and the early church did that.) I'm just still sorting it all out in my mind. My last church only had a couple of people who I would call rich and a few middle class folks. The couple of rich people were very generous and did not seek power because of their wealth. It was way to easy for me. I am discovering that just like poor people, not all rich people relate to money in the same way... - Learning...

I think that these sorts of discussions go off the rails into for two reasons:

1. Failure to consider the context of what 'rich' meant in NT times. To be rich in the Roman world was in most cases the result of crimes against humanity.

2. Belief that what the NT says about wealth cancels out what the OT says about wealth.

So there is always a group of people whose ethic of wealth begins and ends with the camel through an eye of a needle metaphor or the "woe to the rich" passage.

If a pastor even halfway believes that God is angry at wealthy people, it will most certainly color his/her interactions with people who have money. If a pastor even halfway believe that one has to defraud foundational relationships to God and family in order to attain wealth, it will shine through.

[Ryan Scott]

If a pastor even halfway believes that God is angry at wealthy people, it will most certainly color his/her interactions with people who have money. If a pastor even halfway believe that one has to defraud foundational relationships to God and family in order to attain wealth, it will shine through.

Anger and defraud might be a little strong (then again, maybe not), but I don't think I would disagree with these sentiments - I would just disagree with our definition of wealthy - likely all people in every one of our congregations fall into this category for the theological purposes listed here.

That is a major part of Christian ethics - how does our community of Christ live gospel in the midst of a sinful world (of which we are also a part).

We're likely in agreement here. The NT issue is not how much wealth a person has, but how it is earned and what is done with it once it is earned.

I'm all for generosity, but that is only one end of the equation. It's the more comfortable end, so it's the one we talk about most.

I'll also agree that lots of very wealthy people have been treated poorly because we fail to understand this distinction and simply put a dividing line between us and them, calling it rich and poor, when the distinction is relatively arbitrary.

Christ's condemnation and warning to the wealthy is first and foremost directed towards me, whoever I am.

[Billy Cox]

Now, I have two responses to these simple observations - one is positive, there is a sense not of charity, but of generosity - it isn't a gift as much as a partnership from someone with available resources. This is great. It often reflects a good view of giving and participation in the body.

The second observation is that, at times, this can be a challenge to the leadership of the congregation. If the board prioritizes an expense that the wealthy person doesn't favor, they may not participate at all - or use a large gift as incentive to prioritize a project they deem more worthy. Again, this isn't universal, but I've seen it more than once.

I have encountered both...the wealthy person who is content to quietly anchor the church's finances...as well as the wealthy person who wants everyone to know about it.

At what level do we trust the leadership of the congregation we've chosen to live in and with?

This is one of my points of frustration with the church. Trust is not something that can be demanded; it is extended in faith and then earned. I think of trust as a line of credit that can be continually replenished as that trust is honored...or it can be squandered to the point that none remains; and no amount of bullying, shaming, begging, pleading, or condemnation will reopen that account.

Trust can be repaired, but in my experience church leadership tends to write off those relationships where trust is damaged and start over with new people and new lines of credit.

[Gary Creely]

The spiritual needs of a wealthy person are not a lot different than anybody else's. I think as pastors it is easy to neglect people who seem to be doing ok, and often being wealthy makes it easy to appear ok.

[Dave McClung]

My interactions with the wealthy (and again I'm going to judge this by people who have money to give at any time, without necessarily knowing the income of financial situation) and the congregation seems to be that they're ready and willing to give when they see a real need that makes sense financially to them. They're also ready to give when others partner with them.

I've never seen someone say, "we need a new roof, here's the money for it," I have seen people say, "take an offering for the new roof and I'll make up the difference," or "Here's half the money to rehab the teen room, let me know when we've got the other half."

Now, I have two responses to these simple observations - one is positive, there is a sense not of charity, but of generosity - it isn't a gift as much as a partnership from someone with available resources. This is great. It often reflects a good view of giving and participation in the body.

The second observation is that, at times, this can be a challenge to the leadership of the congregation. If the board prioritizes an expense that the wealthy person doesn't favor, they may not participate at all - or use a large gift as incentive to prioritize a project they deem more worthy. Again, this isn't universal, but I've seen it more than once.

At what level do we trust the leadership of the congregation we've chosen to live in and with? When does our individual decision-making trump participation? There is no hard and fast line here, but it is certainly an issue that comes into play in these situations (and with other members who have considerably less to give).

I ask myself the question - am I throwing my lot in with these people only as far as I trust them or is this a commitment to life together? I may be willing to commit my words to a decision I disagree with - am I willing to commit my money? Is that even a requirement for life together in a congregation?

Ryan, you are very observant. You have accurately observed the conflict that faces people of wealth. When too much of the church finances come from one family the church isn't healthy. Many wealthy individuals are aware of that fact and look for ways to be generous without depriving the rest of the congregation of their need to participate. That is one reason that most of the Nazarenes with wealth seek out larger churches. It is hard for a person with wealth to be generous in a small church without being overbearing.

[Dave McClung]

I started to make this post a poll, but I knew how the poll would turn out. The poll question would have been: "Do you do a good job of ministering to the wealthy people associated with your church?" Most of the pastors I know do a great job of ministering to the poor -- the poorer the better. Most don't do as well ministering to the wealthy. Many times, they don't even realize who the wealthy people are.

I am aware of several instances when people died and left multi-million dollar estates and no one in their church even knew they were wealthy.

If I understand the scripture correctly, people who are wealthy need to be generous -- not because the church needs their money. They need to be generous for their own spiritual health. An effective pastor will identify who in the congregation needs encouragement toward generosity.

Several times I have recommended the book, "The Millionaire Next Door." Jeremy Scott just pointed out to me that it is now available on Amazon for $2.99 as a Kindle download -- even cheaper if you buy a used copy in print. This book will help a pastor have a better understanding of who is wealty and who isn't. The book is several years od, so the data is not current. Still, I believe the insights would be helpful to pastors.

http://www.amazon.com/Millionaire-Ne...ZZXJJGY71C11C8

Thanks for the good discussion. I want to be a bit more specific about why I recommended that pastors read this book.

Several pastors who posted to this thread spoke of whether or not people in their congregation are wealthy by saying how much they have in income. It has been my observation that it is typical of pastors to use income as the basis of determining who is wealthy and who isn't. One of the main points made in the book is that income is only half of the issue. Most people spend all they make regardless of how much they make. When it comes to being wealthy, the most important issue is spending less than you make over a long period of time.

I know a lot of doctors, lawyers and other professional folks who have six figure incomes, but have very little net worth.

When I suggest that pastors need to learn how to related to the wealthy, I am not talking about the big spenders. I suggesting that pastors need to know how to minister to those who have lived below their means for a long time. Those are the true wealthy individuals in the congregation. I suggest that pastors need to practice 1 Timothy 6:17-18

17 Command those who are rich in this present world not to be arrogant nor to put their hope in wealth, which is so uncertain, but to put their hope in God, who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment. 18 Command them to do good, to be rich in good deeds, and to be generous and willing to share.

As is explained in the book, the truly wealthy are in the habit of saving. They often have to be taught to be generous and willing to share. Their attitude is often "I worked hard for what I have, let the poor work for theirs too." They are really turned off by wasteful spending or by a lack of accountability. They are not motivated by attention. They don't want to be known as wealthy. If asked to give for a specific project, they are much more interested in what can be accomplished by their gift than in any recognition they will receive.

[Larry Parsons]

Ryan, you are very observant. You have accurately observed the conflict that faces people of wealth. When too much of the church finances come from one family the church isn't healthy. Many wealthy individuals are aware of that fact and look for ways to be generous without depriving the rest of the congregation of their need to participate. That is one reason that most of the Nazarenes with wealth seek out larger churches. It is hard for a person with wealth to be generous in a small church without being overbearing.

Dave, if you have a wealth man in a small church everybody will call that Mr ______ church I know I have pastor one of those churchs. Does ministry to a wealth pastor count?
Thanks
Larry

[Craig Laughlin]

I think that these sorts of discussions go off the rails into for two reasons:

1. Failure to consider the context of what 'rich' meant in NT times. To be rich in the Roman world was in most cases the result of crimes against humanity.

2. Belief that what the NT says about wealth cancels out what the OT says about wealth.

So there is always a group of people whose ethic of wealth begins and ends with the camel through an eye of a needle metaphor or the "woe to the rich" passage.

If a pastor even halfway believes that God is angry at wealthy people, it will most certainly color his/her interactions with people who have money. If a pastor even halfway believe that one has to defraud foundational relationships to God and family in order to attain wealth, it will shine through.

Hmmm. My reflection about ministering to the rich didn't really consider the way they got wealthy or the whole camel thing. The pitfalls I was thinking about in particular is the James 2:1-4 in which we are instructed to be careful about giving the rich special places of honor. I see this as an issue not for the rich but for those who pastor or have leadership in churches.

As has been already pointed out money can distort the decision making process in a church. Like it or not money is power. In my last church the two rich folks were not at all like that. In my current assignment I have brushed against it with a couple of folks who were "checking us out" but I clearly didn't give the right answers. (I could tell they had an agenda)

Reflecting a little on Dave's post about generosity and the rich it occurred to me that at least a part of my problem is I don't have a strong grasp of what that means for a rich person. Embarrassed to admit I don't know what that means Biblically or practically in today's world. - Guess I know what I need to study.

[Ryan Scott]

This is one of my points of frustration with the church. Trust is not something that can be demanded; it is extended in faith and then earned. I think of trust as a line of credit that can be continually replenished as that trust is honored...or it can be squandered to the point that none remains; and no amount of bullying, shaming, begging, pleading, or condemnation will reopen that account.

Obviously there's two sides in any struggle and reconciliation takes work from both parties, but I was speaking more theologically. If we're committed to a specific congregation, a body of believers we've tied ourselves to, then we do have a responsibility of trust and submission to each other, even if sometimes we don't like it or disagree.

I really do compare it to marriage. When we're baptized, we're essentially marrying into the body of Christ, we become a part of it. In our day and age, we have congregations we attach ourselves to - and theologically that attachment should be in such a way that the individual can't sever it without agreement from the congregation.

Too many of us act like we're just living with the Church rather than married to her. We find out something we don't like and we leave to find another congregation who will better cater to our needs and preferences.

That's really what I was referring to. Now there can be hurt individual who approach a congregation with their hurt in an attempt to reconcile and are pushed away or ignored. There things get trickier - often the severing does come in mutuality, even if it is regrettable.

I know I've struggled to give to the congregation when I'm not exactly pleased with the way finances are handled, but I've decided to give it anyway as a sign of submission to God's people, as corrupt and broken as we are, we're still the Church and we have to get along with each other.