Does the scripture require us to help the general poor like our government is trying to do?

[Rich Schmidt]

Not taking sides here... just can't figure out what you mean by this part, James:

As for your accusation of "concerning justice" in regards to our conflicting and earthly political ideals, I think Jesus' teaching was radical enough to threaten all forms of political power both 2,000 years ago and today regardless of the form it takes.

I get your point, expressed in the second part of the sentence... but I can't figure out what you're saying in the first part. What accusation? All Doug said was that anyone (right, left, or center) would feel convicted if the Lord stood before us and taught us about justice. (Which seems to be pretty much what you're saying here, too.) At least, that's how I read him. But your underlining of the word "concerning" makes me think perhaps you read him differently...?

[Doug Ward]

Doug, Hans didn't say anything about being convicted when standing before the Lord, he spoke of those who would be anything but and would crucify the Lord for his teaching (and crucify his servants).

As for your accusation of "concerning justice" in regards to our conflicting and earthly political ideals, I think Jesus' teaching was radical enough to threaten all forms of political power both 2,000 years ago and today regardless of the form it takes.

James, this post has me confused. Your post seems to imply that I am accusing Hans, or anyone of something. I agree with you that Jesus teaching threatens every form of political power. That was explicitly what I said in my post.

[Hans Deventer]

James, this post has me confused. Your post seems to imply that I am accusing Hans, or anyone of something. I agree with you that Jesus teaching threatens every form of political power. That was explicitly what I said in my post.

Yes. And that was what Doug and I totally agreed on. I initially spoke about only one side of the issue, but it is obvious that we'll ALL have to face correction when we stand before Jesus. It's a pity Dale didn't read on and that somehow, we've gotten into some confusion, while the issue actually had been resolved.

[James Diggs]

Rich, Doug, Hans. I am sorry I was on a very tiny laptop earlier and read "concerning justice" as "coercing justice. I mistook Doug here for emphasizing a common complaint I have heard against social justice politically. All in all my mistake doesn't take away from my point, I just thought those who fear coercion also can correspond with a fear of losing one's position. Of course I was way off though when it comes to saying Doug was making any kind of accusation. Sorry about that.

[Hans Deventer]

Rich, Doug, Hans. I am sorry I was on a very tiny laptop earlier and read "concerning justice" as "coercing justice. I mistook Doug here for emphasizing a common complaint I have heard against social justice politically. All in all my mistake doesn't take away from my point, I just thought those who fear coercion also can correspond with a fear of losing one's position. Of course I was way off though when it comes to saying Doug was making any kind of accusation. Sorry about that.

No problem, James!!

[Doug Ward]

Thanks for the explanation.

[Dale Cozby]

My thought is that if the Lord stood right before them(right wing Americans) and taught them(right wing Americans) what the Bible says on social justice, too many right wing Americans(them) would crucify Him all over again. And if that's what they'll do with the Master, what can be expected of the servant(liberals?)?

I know we should always have the optimism of grace, but after this many years on NazNet and seeing the support for Santorum, that optimism has had quite a few blows.

Not sure how you didn't call us Christkillers, and maybe servants of Satan because it sure comes off that way. so, I returned sarcasm for sarcasm.....in a very unChristlike manner. Sorry for that.


Which of the following is a ring wing American most like?
A. Chief Priest and the Pharisees
B. Judas Iscariot and the rich young ruler
C. Pilate and His Roman legions
D. All of the above

[Hans Deventer]

Not sure how you didn't call us Christkillers, and maybe servants of Satan because it sure comes off that way. so, I returned sarcasm for sarcasm.....in a very unChristlike manner. Sorry for that.

If you are, then let's leave it here.

[Larry Parsons]

Larry,

This sounds very different to me than what you were saying earlier. Earlier you seemed to be saying that we Christians are only to help the poor who are "in a covenant with" God, who "will submit to God's Word," and who "come under the rule of God." Now you're saying that we're to help those who are willing but unable to work.

Those are very different criteria for determining who is "deserving" and who is not.

Rich, thanks for the question I don’t know if this going be a good answer or not. We know according to the scriptures during the time of the Old Covenant the Children of Israel was require to look after the immigrants (the Stranger), widow and the orphans and far as the Old Covenant is concern the Children of Israel were not require to take care of those who was not willing to work. We know that gleaning was part of the Old Covenant charity program but you had to work to receive the benefits of it. This may surprise some the land owners apparently had the right to specify which deserving poor could glean on their land see Ruth 2:4-16 Cleaning was not simply a right that could be claimed by any poor persons. From this idea gleaning show that God himself wouldn’t help everyone only the deserving poor. The Bible tells us that God is actually against certain poor people. The sluggard, who is lazy and thoughtless about the future, has no claim on God's mercy. God certainly is not on the side of any lawbreakers who happen to be poor. So we can see that God doesn’t side with the poor automatically nor should it be with his people.
Thanks
Larry

[Rich Schmidt]

Rich, thanks for the question I don’t know if this going be a good answer or not. We know according to the scriptures during the time of the Old Covenant the Children of Israel was require to look after the immigrants (the Stranger), widow and the orphans and far as the Old Covenant is concern the Children of Israel were not require to take care of those who was not willing to work. We know that gleaning was part of the Old Covenant charity program but you had to work to receive the benefits of it. This may surprise some the land owners apparently had the right to specify which deserving poor could glean on their land see Ruth 2:4-16 Cleaning was not simply a right that could be claimed by any poor persons. From this idea gleaning show that God himself wouldn’t help everyone only the deserving poor. The Bible tells us that God is actually against certain poor people. The sluggard, who is lazy and thoughtless about the future, has no claim on God's mercy. God certainly is not on the side of any lawbreakers who happen to be poor. So we can see that God doesn’t side with the poor automatically nor should it be with his people.

I feel like another subtle shift is happening here, Larry. You started the thread asking about who we as Christians are supposed to help. Now you're talking about who's "side" God is on. I think the message of Scripture is pretty clear that God is on the "side" of lawbreakers, if by that we mean that God cares for them, loves them, and has sent his Son Jesus Christ to rescue them from their lawlessness. Luke 15 and the entire story of Jesus seems to make that clear, if you ask me. Plus, as Jesus made clear in the verses I quoted earlier, God sends rain and provides for both good people and bad people.

I agree with you that Scripture is clear about the work thing: if someone in need is able but unwilling to help themselves, then our help to them should be limited. Of course, drawing that line can be tricky. Some are clearly disabled. Some are clearly able but just lazy. Many are somewhere in between.

[Larry Parsons]

This morning I ask a visiting pastor if he believe that Jesus went around helping all the poor that he could find. He said no and he gave me example of Act 3. Here is a story of a man who had been crippled ever since he was born and everyday he was brought to the temple gate called Beautiful so he could beg from the people that was entering the temple. How many times do you think Jesus pass by that poor cripple man without offering to help him? I don’t think he was only man who was laid at the temple gates to beg that Jesus pass by without helping. Later Peter and John did come to his aid but why didn't Jesus.
Thanks
Larry

[Gina Stevenson]

MAY be wrong, but nearly sounds as if in this thread one might be looking for reasons to be exempted from helping ... ??? Hope not. So what exactly is behind this question?

[Steven Burton]

MAY be wrong, but nearly sounds as if in this thread one might be looking for reasons to be exempted from helping ... ??? Hope not. So what exactly is behind this question?

I am glad I am not the only one who is hearing this as well.

[Rich Schmidt]

This morning I ask a visiting pastor if he believe that Jesus went around helping all the poor that he could find. He said no and he gave me example of Act 3. Here is a story of a man who had been crippled ever since he was born and everyday he was brought to the temple gate called Beautiful so he could beg from the people that was entering the temple. How many times do you think Jesus pass by that poor cripple man without offering to help him? I don’t think he was only man who was laid at the temple gates to beg that Jesus pass by without helping. Later Peter and John did come to his aid but why didn't Jesus.
Thanks
Larry

We know Jesus didn't help every poor person he met... just like he didn't heal every sick person or raise every dead person. I'm not sure what you're getting at...?

[Randy Wise]

If we follow Jesus example of helping the poor then I don’t see it would be a Christian’s requirement.Even the so call poor law’s that we find in the Old Testament doesn’t demand that we are required to help the general poor.
What are your thought on this?
Thanks
Larry

Our righeoueness is by faith. Giving to those who are poor comes from our hearts. If you heart condition prompts you to give then I would state thats a good condition to be in. I don't believe God puts pressure on us to give. I do believe giving to those in need pleases God but such giving should be freely done.

Randy

[Gina Stevenson]

I am glad I am not the only one who is hearing this as well.

Wonder if possibly there is someone specific that one is being prompted to help, but the one being prompted deems that/those person(s) unworthy of their help due to whatever reason they judge to be valid, and so seeks to justify their not helping, tho' somehow feeling they should ... just wonder, since this thread does not seem to be dying out, but becoming repetitive ... ???

Just go ahead and help whoever it is, Larry ... you'll feel better.

[Larry Parsons]

We know Jesus didn't help every poor person he met... just like he didn't heal every sick person or raise every dead person. I'm not sure what you're getting at...?

Rich, some may not believe it but, none of the biblical poor laws were intended to be a long term benefit for the general poor. They were only to serve in time of emergency. The scripture also tell us that God was only helping those who call upon Him. If the poor curses the Lord, breaks His Laws and don't trusting Him, then God has only condemnation for them. According to Jesus in the gospel of Luke God’s concern for the poor was a discriminating concern. In my question at the beginning “Does the Scripture require us to help the general poor like our government is trying to do? Yes, we are to help certain specific people like Jesus did during his earthly ministry. But I don’t believe we are require or should be force to help the general poor of our country or any other country through our government system. The only Christians that I find who want us to help the general poor with life time benefit are those who believe in Robin Hood type of Charity. My point is if Jesus and God only help certain people why is our government require us to help the general poor. Does that mean that I'm against helping people who are in need our help of couse not but I don't believe we are require to help everyone without any obligation on thier part.
Thanks
Larry

[Rich Schmidt]

Rich, some may not believe it but, none of the biblical poor laws were intended to be a long term benefit for the general poor. They were only to serve in time of emergency. The scripture also tell us that God was only helping those who call upon Him. If the poor curses the Lord, breaks His Laws and don't trusting Him, then God has only condemnation for them.

No, Larry, that is not at all what the Bible tells us. Did you miss the passages I quoted earlier in the thread? We're commanded to love our enemies, because that's what God our Father does, providing rain for both the just and the unjust.

According to Jesus in the gospel of Luke God’s concern for the poor was a discriminating concern. In my question at the beginning “Does the Scripture require us to help the general poor like our government is trying to do? Yes, we are to help certain specific people like Jesus did during his earthly ministry. But I don’t believe we are require or should be force to help the general poor of our country or any other country through our government system. The only Christians that I find who want us to help the general poor with life time benefit are those who believe in Robin Hood type of Charity. My point is if Jesus and God only help certain people why is our government require us to help the general poor. Does that mean that I'm against helping people who are in need our help of couse not but I don't believe we are require to help everyone without any obligation on thier part.
Thanks
Larry

I didn't realize this was the question you were asking, Larry. I thought you were asking about what our faith in Christ requires us to do in regard to the poor around us, not what our government requires us to do.

[Gary Condon]

"And they said, "Lord, when did we see you?" and he said "whenever you did this to the least of these".

As long as you can ignore that passage, you can probably ignore anything that fits your jib.

I don't understand how anyone can come up with any other answer...

[Gary Condon]

I'm glad Sisters of Charity were part of my life.

[Hans Deventer]

No, Larry, that is not at all what the Bible tells us. Did you miss the passages I quoted earlier in the thread? We're commanded to love our enemies, because that's what God our Father does, providing rain for both the just and the unjust.



I didn't realize this was the question you were asking, Larry. I thought you were asking about what our faith in Christ requires us to do in regard to the poor around us, not what our government requires us to do.

In this thread, everything is political, and hence, all the Scriptures are twisted to fit a specific political view, even if it literally contradicts our Lord. That's why this thread should be at the CE forum.

[Jim Chabot]

I didn't realize this was the question you were asking, Larry. I thought you were asking about what our faith in Christ requires us to do in regard to the poor around us, not what our government requires us to do.

Good point Rich. The thread title does ask what our obligations should be.

I like part of the answer that Todd has given:

"And they said, "Lord, when did we see you?" and he said "whenever you did this to the least of these".

Along with part of yours:

We know Jesus didn't help every poor person he met... just like he didn't heal every sick person or raise every dead person.

It seems to me that as we encounter those in need, the Spirit will encourage us to do what we can to help them. I've found that sometimes the Spirit's encouragement appears to be past what I think I am able to do. I've been pleased to find out that the Spirit knows better than I do.

I have to also offer some support to what Larry is saying. There are times when I can see that part of my helping someone is to point out things that they can do to better their situation. This is an integral part of compassion. I don't want to lift someone up just long enough to get myself out of their sight, I want to be interested in their long term, and I realize that I can't possibly do this just by giving, there needs to be the added component whereby we do our level best to show folks how to help themselves if this is possible.

[David Graham]

In this thread, everything is political, and hence, all the Scriptures are twisted to fit a specific political view, even if it literally contradicts our Lord. That's why this thread should be at the CE forum.

Yeah, I agree Hans; anyone want to transfer this thread over to the CE forum?

[Larry Parsons]

Todd, How do we know that least of them wasn't Jesus disciples who were his brothers and sisters who was doing his will. (see matthew 12:48-50 If this true then least of them could not be consider the general poor who were not keeping his will.
Thanks
Larry

[Randy Wise]

Todd, How do we know that least of them wasn't Jesus disciples who were his brothers and sisters who was doing his will. (see matthew 12:48-50 If this true then least of them could not be consider the general poor who were not keeping his will.
Thanks
Larry

Loving thy neighbor was defined by Jesus but hunting down the poor to help them as a required work to remain righteous isn't right either. I have had people that appeared to be jobless or homeless or their good actors ask for a dollar or even 50 cents and watched people turn them down. I have given them what they asked for but I don't seek them out. I suppose someone who was laying wounded in my front yard would be hard to ignore. (Ref Jesus's teaching) Each of us choose different ways to help others. I can't back down on grace even while I might state "put into practice"

Randy