I often see comments about weak theology in many contemporary praise & worship songs, but I do not often see examples given of this. I am curious: What songs (or methods of song writing) contain poor theology? And why do you believe this is poor theology?
To start with, I'll give an example. I find "Jesus is my boyfriend" songs to be extremely lacking. These are songs that you can replace any reference to God with someone's name and have a standard love song.
And to not be completely negative, I thought that it would be good to also have conversation about songs containing strong theology.
The first example that comes to mind for me is "Beautiful Things" by Gungor. (Well, for that matter, most of Gungor's music could be included here.) I particularly like the bridge line: "You make me new. You are making me new." At the consummation, God will make all things new. However, this is not just a future event. He is currently in the process of making us new. What a great example of solid eschatology in church music! The focus is not on us all going away to some kind of neo-platonic "heaven". Rather, the focus is on God's work of restoration in the world today.
Feel free to use examples of songs from all eras of church music. I look forward to seeing y'all's thoughts!
So when the gospel is diminished to a question of whether or not a person will “get into heaven,” that reduces the good news to a ticket, a way to get past the bouncer and into the club. The good news is better than that.
I often see comments about weak theology in many contemporary praise & worship songs, but I do not often see examples given of this. I am curious: What songs (or methods of song writing) contain poor theology? And why do you believe this is poor theology?
Let's start with the good stuff. Great tune, even better lyrics.
Meekness and majesty
Manhood and Deity
In perfect harmony
The Man who is God
Lord of eternity
Dwells in humanity
Kneels in humility
And washes our feet
O what a mystery
Meekness and majesty
Bow down and worship
For this is your God
This is your God
Father's pure radiance
Perfect in innocence
Yet learns obedience
To death on a cross
Suffering to give us life
Conquering through sacrifice
And as they crucify
Prays: 'Father forgive.'
(Chorus)
Wisdom unsearchable
God the invisible
Love indestructible
In frailty appears
Lord of infinity
Stooping so tenderly
Lifts our humanity
To the heights of His throne
(Chorus)
As to the bad, it is the general suggestion in numerous songs that somehow, God is especially waiting for us to sing for Him. I think Amos made pretty clear such is not the case. As did Paul in Rom 12:1-2. It is also the lack of songs that deal with reality, with doubt and God's absence, as the Psalms do.
This is one where I never sing along with the chorus:
He is the Lord, and He reigns on high
He is the Lord
Spoke into the darkness, created the light
He is the Lord
Who is like unto Him, never ending in days
He is the Lord
And He comes in power when we call on His name
He is the Lord
Show Your power, oh Lord our God
Show Your power, oh Lord our God, our God
Your gospel oh Lord is the hope of this nation
You are the Lord
It?s the power of God for our salvation
You are the Lord
We ask not for riches, but look to the cross
You are the Lord
And for our inheritance give us the lost
You are the Lord
Send Your power, oh Lord our God
Send Your power, oh Lord our God, our God
"No scripture can mean that God is not love, or that his mercy is not over all his works" (John Wesley - Free Grace, 26)
I've always been a fan of David Crowder Band's "Wholly Yours." It poetically describes (and musically portrays) God graciously making us holy, right up to the last line: "I am full of earth and dirt and you."
Let no one caught in sin remain
Inside the lie of inward shame
But fix our eyes upon the cross
And run to Him who showed great love
And bled for us
Freely You've bled for us
Christ is risen from the dead
Trampling over death by death
Come awake, come awake
Come and rise up from the grave
Christ is risen from the dead
We are one with Him again
Come awake, come awake
Come and rise up from the grave
Beneath the weight of all our sin
You bowed to none but heaven's will
No scheme of hell, no scoffer's crown
No burden great can hold You down
In strength You reign
Forever let Your church proclaim
O death, where is your sting?
O hell, where is your victory?
O church, come stand in the light
The glory of God has defeated the night
O death, where is your sting?
O hell, where is your victory?
O church, come stand in the light
Our God is not dead
He's alive! He's alive!
I love this song because it is taken from the Orthodox Paschal Hymn, found in my signature. Not only are the lyrics of the chorus taken directly from this hymn, but the bridge evidences a level of familiarity with the Orthodox Paschal Matens, and the event in the liturgy during which the hymn is proclaimed. The Church literally stands in the light of the sanctuary as the doors are opened and the light from the sanctuary - the light of Christ's resurrection - invades the darkness of the night in which the Church was standing.
You can hardly do better than Charles Wesley's "And Can it Be?"
And can it be that I should gain
An interest in the Savior’s blood?
Died He for me, who caused His pain—
For me, who Him to death pursued?
Amazing love! How can it be,
That Thou, my God, shouldst die for me?
Amazing love! How can it be,
That Thou, my God, shouldst die for me?
’Tis mystery all: th’Immortal dies:
Who can explore His strange design?
In vain the firstborn seraph tries
To sound the depths of love divine.
’Tis mercy all! Let earth adore,
Let angel minds inquire no more.
’Tis mercy all! Let earth adore;
Let angel minds inquire no more.
He left His Father’s throne above
So free, so infinite His grace—
Emptied Himself of all but love,
And bled for Adam’s helpless race:
’Tis mercy all, immense and free,
For O my God, it found out me!
’Tis mercy all, immense and free,
For O my God, it found out me!
Long my imprisoned spirit lay,
Fast bound in sin and nature’s night;
Thine eye diffused a quickening ray—
I woke, the dungeon flamed with light;
My chains fell off, my heart was free,
I rose, went forth, and followed Thee.
My chains fell off, my heart was free,
I rose, went forth, and followed Thee.
Still the small inward voice I hear,
That whispers all my sins forgiven;
Still the atoning blood is near,
That quenched the wrath of hostile Heaven.
I feel the life His wounds impart;
I feel the Savior in my heart.
I feel the life His wounds impart;
I feel the Savior in my heart.
No condemnation now I dread;
Jesus, and all in Him, is mine;
Alive in Him, my living Head,
And clothed in righteousness divine,
Bold I approach th’eternal throne,
And claim the crown, through Christ my own.
Bold I approach th’eternal throne,
And claim the crown, through Christ my own.
- Ben
Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death! And to those in the tombs, bestowing life!
Χριστὸς ἀνέστη ἐκ νεκρῶν, θανάτῳ θάνατον πατήσας! καὶ τοῖς ἐν τοῖς μνήμασι, ζωὴν χαρισάμενος!
And Can It Be? is my all-time favorite example of church music.
So when the gospel is diminished to a question of whether or not a person will “get into heaven,” that reduces the good news to a ticket, a way to get past the bouncer and into the club. The good news is better than that.
Let no one caught in sin remain
Inside the lie of inward shame
But fix our eyes upon the cross
And run to Him who showed great love
And bled for us
Freely You've bled for us
Christ is risen from the dead
Trampling over death by death
Come awake, come awake
Come and rise up from the grave
Christ is risen from the dead
We are one with Him again
Come awake, come awake
Come and rise up from the grave
Beneath the weight of all our sin
You bowed to none but heaven's will
No scheme of hell, no scoffer's crown
No burden great can hold You down
In strength You reign
Forever let Your church proclaim
O death, where is your sting?
O hell, where is your victory?
O church, come stand in the light
The glory of God has defeated the night
O death, where is your sting?
O hell, where is your victory?
O church, come stand in the light
Our God is not dead
He's alive! He's alive!
I love this song because it is taken from the Orthodox Paschal Hymn, found in my signature. Not only are the lyrics of the chorus taken directly from this hymn, but the bridge evidences a level of familiarity with the Orthodox Paschal Matens, and the event in the liturgy during which the hymn is proclaimed. The Church literally stands in the light of the sanctuary as the doors are opened and the light from the sanctuary - the light of Christ's resurrection - invades the darkness of the night in which the Church was standing.
You can hardly do better than Charles Wesley's "And Can it Be?"
And can it be that I should gain
An interest in the Savior’s blood?
Died He for me, who caused His pain—
For me, who Him to death pursued?
Amazing love! How can it be,
That Thou, my God, shouldst die for me?
Amazing love! How can it be,
That Thou, my God, shouldst die for me?
’Tis mystery all: th’Immortal dies:
Who can explore His strange design?
In vain the firstborn seraph tries
To sound the depths of love divine.
’Tis mercy all! Let earth adore,
Let angel minds inquire no more.
’Tis mercy all! Let earth adore;
Let angel minds inquire no more.
He left His Father’s throne above
So free, so infinite His grace—
Emptied Himself of all but love,
And bled for Adam’s helpless race:
’Tis mercy all, immense and free,
For O my God, it found out me!
’Tis mercy all, immense and free,
For O my God, it found out me!
Long my imprisoned spirit lay,
Fast bound in sin and nature’s night;
Thine eye diffused a quickening ray—
I woke, the dungeon flamed with light;
My chains fell off, my heart was free,
I rose, went forth, and followed Thee.
My chains fell off, my heart was free,
I rose, went forth, and followed Thee.
Still the small inward voice I hear,
That whispers all my sins forgiven;
Still the atoning blood is near,
That quenched the wrath of hostile Heaven.
I feel the life His wounds impart;
I feel the Savior in my heart.
I feel the life His wounds impart;
I feel the Savior in my heart.
No condemnation now I dread;
Jesus, and all in Him, is mine;
Alive in Him, my living Head,
And clothed in righteousness divine,
Bold I approach th’eternal throne,
And claim the crown, through Christ my own.
Bold I approach th’eternal throne,
And claim the crown, through Christ my own.
Isn't it verses 2 and 5 that are omitted from the Nazarene hymnal? It reminds me of the deleted scenes on a rented movie DVD. While interesting, it's easy to see why they didn't make the cut.
Last edited by Billy Cox; March 5th, 2012 at 03:07 PM.
Reason: punctuation
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us wthout end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
- C.S. Lewis
There's a place that I love to run and play
There's a place that I sing new songs of praise
Dancin' with my Father God in fields of grace
There's a place that I lose myself within
There's a place that I find myself again
Dancin' with my Father God in fields of grace
There's a place where religion finally dies
There's a place that I lose my selfish pride
Dancin’ with my Father God in fields of grace
I love my Father, my Father loves me
I dance for my Father, my Father sings over me
And nothing can take that away from me
First of all... it doesn't say anything. Secondly, where are these fields at? Third, religion finally dies? What does that even mean? It's horrible theology.
Other songs with a lot of good theology in them also have some bad theology.
"In Christ Alone" has both Penal Substitutionary Theology as well as Perseverance of the Saints theology.
"How Deep The Father's Love for Us" says that the Father turned his face away from Christ on the cross.
"Embracing Accusation" by Shane and Shane clearly evinces a very Lutheran Imputed Righteousness theology.
"Jesus Paid It All" is a song about Penal Substitution.
- Ben
Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death! And to those in the tombs, bestowing life!
Χριστὸς ἀνέστη ἐκ νεκρῶν, θανάτῳ θάνατον πατήσας! καὶ τοῖς ἐν τοῖς μνήμασι, ζωὴν χαρισάμενος!
Isn't it verses 2 and 5 that are omitted from the Nazarene hymnal? It reminds me of the deleted scenes on a rented movie DVD. While interesting, it's easy to see why they didn't make the cut.
I actually didn't look at all of it, I just assumed it was what I'd always heard/known. Interesting. Yea, verse 2 is sort of useless and verse 5 evinces PSA. Blah.
- Ben
Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death! And to those in the tombs, bestowing life!
Χριστὸς ἀνέστη ἐκ νεκρῶν, θανάτῳ θάνατον πατήσας! καὶ τοῖς ἐν τοῖς μνήμασι, ζωὴν χαρισάμενος!
Let no one caught in sin remain
Inside the lie of inward shame
But fix our eyes upon the cross
And run to Him who showed great love
And bled for us
Freely You've bled for us
Christ is risen from the dead
Trampling over death by death
Come awake, come awake
Come and rise up from the grave
Christ is risen from the dead
We are one with Him again
Come awake, come awake
Come and rise up from the grave
Beneath the weight of all our sin
You bowed to none but heaven's will
No scheme of hell, no scoffer's crown
No burden great can hold You down
In strength You reign
Forever let Your church proclaim
O death, where is your sting?
O hell, where is your victory?
O church, come stand in the light
The glory of God has defeated the night
O death, where is your sting?
O hell, where is your victory?
O church, come stand in the light
Our God is not dead
He's alive! He's alive!
I love this song because it is taken from the Orthodox Paschal Hymn, found in my signature. Not only are the lyrics of the chorus taken directly from this hymn, but the bridge evidences a level of familiarity with the Orthodox Paschal Matens, and the event in the liturgy during which the hymn is proclaimed. The Church literally stands in the light of the sanctuary as the doors are opened and the light from the sanctuary - the light of Christ's resurrection - invades the darkness of the night in which the Church was standing.
The only song I have ever sung in front of my congregation on my own.....those poor people
"Love without holiness disintegrates into sentimentality. Personal integrity is lost. But holiness without love is not holiness at all. In spite of its label, it displays harshness, judgmentalism, a critical spirit, and all its capacity for discrimination end in nit-picking and divisiveness."-Mildred Bangs Wynkoop
(Well, for that matter, most of Gungor's music could be included here.)
A few more Gungor lines (some of which would work as "worship" songs, some of which wouldn't):
"Jesus, you're the one who saves us, constantly creates us into something new. Jesus, surely you will find us, surely our Messiah will make all things new." (Dry Bones)
"Love came down and hope was found and now we're waking up to a brighter day... Love is here, Love is coming. Heaven is breaking open" (Brighter Day)
"I don't know what you've been told, but Heaven is coming down to the world." (Heaven)
"We will run to you, we will run to you, Turning from our sin we return to You, Father heal your world, make all things new." (We Will Run)
"Brother wind your clouds and your storms, you're breathing the breath of God in your lungs for us. Mother earth, you're giving us life with God's open hand you always provide for us. Maker of it all, You provide it all. In You we live, In You we move, In You we have our being, You're glorious, You're holding us together all together. You are everything good, you are everything beautiful." (Brother Moon)
"The chaos of creation’s dance, a tapestry, a symphony of life himself, of love herself. It’s written in our very skin / All praises to the one who made it all and finds it beautiful." (Crags and Clay)
"Where it comes flowers grow, Lions sleep, gravestones roll. Where death dies all things live. Where it comes poor men feast, kings fall down to their knees. When death dies all things." (When Death Dies)
Most good things have been said far too many times and just need to be lived. - Shane Claiborne
When I look at the blood
All I see is love, love, love.
When I stop at the cross
I can see the love of God
But I can't see competition
I can't see hierarchy
I can't see pride or prejudice
or the abuse of authority
I can't see lust for power
I can't see manipulation
I can't see rage or anger
or selfish ambition
But I can't see unforgiveness
I can't see hate or envy
I can't see stupid fighting
or bitterness,or jealousy.
I can't see empire building
I can't see self importance
I can't see back stabbing
Or vanity or arrogance.
I see surrender, sacrifice, salvation,
humility, righteousness, faithfulness, grace, forgiveness
Love Love Love
When I Stop at the cross
I can see the love of God.
Thanks for all the feedback! This is really helping my thought process.
As I reflect further, I wonder if "good" and "bad" are the best ways to describe the theology contained in some of these songs. I say this because I don't necessarily describe the theology of people I disagree with as being "bad"; sometimes I just think that it is mistaken. Don't get me wrong. I think that there is plenty of bad theology out there. Various ideas derived from folk theology that have little to do with the content and context of Scripture and little-to-no support from tradition come to mind. But when I engage in conversation with, say, a Presbyterian, I do not really think that his or her theology is "bad"; I would just say that it is incorrect from what I have come to understand about God. Or inversely, I would say that the theology of an Arminian is "bad" if they simply reject Calvinistic predestination because they do not think it's fair for God to act like that. Certainly I too reject Calvinistic predestination, but there are much better reasons to do so than appealing to fairness.
I also wonder if we need to have full agreement with the implication of every line of a song for it to be acceptable. I think of the poetic portions of Scripture that fundamentalists like to appeal to in supporting their ideas, and I do not find that I agree with all of the implications of these passages. However, I do believe that they were inspired by God and have value, even if they do not really contain a scientific account of God's creative activities or the make up of the cosmos.
So when the gospel is diminished to a question of whether or not a person will “get into heaven,” that reduces the good news to a ticket, a way to get past the bouncer and into the club. The good news is better than that.
One of my favorites: "I Can Only Imagine" by MercyMe.
One reason I like it is because it seems to me to be neither weak OR strong theology. It attempts to express a truth beyond the realm of academic theology: what will we do when we finally see Jesus face to face! I sure feel like I am worshipping when I sing it.
It does have a few too many "yeahs" near the end.
(And this is from one who prefers both Pipe organs & choirs as well as Southern Gospel way ahead of most CCM music!)
"In Christ Alone" has both Penal Substitutionary Theology as well as Perseverance of the Saints theology.
To deal with the PSA in this one, we have changed, "on that cross as Jesus died the wrath of God was satisfied" to "on that cross as Jesus died, the love of God was magnified". Still not my favorite song but it helps a little.
Most good things have been said far too many times and just need to be lived. - Shane Claiborne
To deal with the PSA in this one, we have changed, "on that cross as Jesus died the wrath of God was satisfied" to "on that cross as Jesus died, the love of God was magnified". Still not my favorite song but it helps a little.
I would also say that once the PSA is removed, the "no power of hell, no scheme of man, can ever pluck me from his hand" no longer sounds like a Calvinist P, but simply good, Wesleyan assurance!
- Ben
Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death! And to those in the tombs, bestowing life!
Χριστὸς ἀνέστη ἐκ νεκρῶν, θανάτῳ θάνατον πατήσας! καὶ τοῖς ἐν τοῖς μνήμασι, ζωὴν χαρισάμενος!
Most Chris Tomlin songs operate from a strong PSA standpoint. Which helps make them popular with a particular group of folks.
I have to confess a strong irritation with songs that not only sing the name "yahweh", but then do so repeatedly. For a name that was originally only ever written, and then with extreme reverence, we have reduced all of the meaning from it rather expertly.
Example:
Who is moving on the waters
Who is holding up the moon
Who is peeling back the darkness
With the burning light of noon
Who is standing on the mountains
Who is on the earth below
Who is bigger than the heavens and the lover of my soul (Chorus)
(Chorus) Creator God, He is Yahweh
The Great I Am, He is Yahweh
The Lord of All, He is Yahweh
Rose of Sharon, He is Yahweh
The Righteous Son, He is Yahweh
The Three-in-one, He is Yahweh
Who is He that makes me happy
Who is He that gives me peace
Who is He that brings me comfort
And turns the bitter into sweet
Who is stirring up my passion
Who is rising up in me
Who is filling up my hunger, with everything I need. (Chorus)
You are holy and eternal
And forever You will reign
Every knee will bow before You
Every tongue will confess Your name
All the angels give You glory
As they stand before Your throne
and here on Earth we gather
To declare Your name alone. (Chorus)
This one is especially irksome...the second verse is entirely about what God does for me. This often gets sung repeatedly. Additionally, there are Christians who starve, who die of illness without healing, who die without passion...this definitely whips people up into a passion frenzy of sorts, but I'm not clear on how this is healthy, rather than being a sort of emotional booster shot on sunday.
Here's Michael W. Smith's "healing rain":
Healing rain is coming down
It's coming nearer to this old town
Rich and poor, weak and strong
It's bringing mercy, it won't be long
Healing rain is coming down
It's coming closer to the lost and found
Tears of joy, and tears of shame
Are washed forever in Jesus' name
Healing rain, it comes with fire
So let it fall and take us higher
Healing rain, I'm not afraid
To be washed in Heaven's rain
Lift your heads, let us return
To the mercy seat where time began
And in your eyes, I see the pain
Come soak this dry heart with healing rain
And only You, the Son of man
Can take a leper and let him stand
So lift your hands, they can be held
By someone greater, the great I Am
Healing rain, it comes with fire
So let it fall and take us higher
Healing rain, I'm not afraid
To be washed in Heaven's rain
To be washed in Heaven's rain...
Healing rain is falling down
Healing rain is falling down
I'm not afraid
I'm not afraid...
I suppose this simply comes out of the Experiential/Pentecostal end of things. I'm just not clear on what this has to do with worshipping God, precisely...it very much seems to operate in a vending machine position with God...if we sing loud and hard and earnestly enough, God is going to show up and make me feel better...
So, I may be having a dense moment, but what does "PSA" stand for?
So when the gospel is diminished to a question of whether or not a person will “get into heaven,” that reduces the good news to a ticket, a way to get past the bouncer and into the club. The good news is better than that.
Penal Substitutionary Atonement. The theory that God had to punish Christ to pay Himself for our Sin. Thus, we all are awful and terrible, and must worship both in our guilt, and amazement that God loves us enough to only punish us with this life, though he will some day take us to heaven as a reward.
Penal Substitutionary Atonement. The theory that God had to punish Christ to pay Himself for our Sin. Thus, we all are awful and terrible, and must worship both in our guilt, and amazement that God loves us enough to only punish us with this life, though he will some day take us to heaven as a reward.
Alright. I'm with ya. I know of penal substitutionary atonement. I have just never seen in acronymed before.
So, you wouldn't classify all songs that testify of the greatness of God as being this, though, would you? The two Tomlin songs that immediately come to my mind (How Great Is Our God and Our God) don't say anything about the depraved state of humanity. Not to say that their aren't others that might. I'd have to look.
So when the gospel is diminished to a question of whether or not a person will “get into heaven,” that reduces the good news to a ticket, a way to get past the bouncer and into the club. The good news is better than that.
And Can It Be? is my all-time favorite example of church music.
'And Can it Be' is grounded in PSA. Did you know that? Hope that doesn't ruin the song for you.
And can it be that I should gain
An interest in the Savior’s blood?
Died He for me, who caused His pain—
For me, who Him to death pursued?
Amazing love! How can it be,
That Thou, my God, shouldst die for me?
Amazing love! How can it be,
That Thou, my God, shouldst die for me?
’Tis mystery all: th’Immortal dies:
Who can explore His strange design?
In vain the firstborn seraph tries
To sound the depths of love divine.
’Tis mercy all! Let earth adore,
Let angel minds inquire no more.
’Tis mercy all! Let earth adore;
Let angel minds inquire no more.
He left His Father’s throne above
So free, so infinite His grace—
Emptied Himself of all but love,
And bled for Adam’s helpless race:
’Tis mercy all, immense and free,
For O my God, it found out me!
’Tis mercy all, immense and free,
For O my God, it found out me!
Long my imprisoned spirit lay,
Fast bound in sin and nature’s night;Thine eye diffused a quickening ray—
I woke, the dungeon flamed with light;
My chains fell off, my heart was free,
I rose, went forth, and followed Thee.
My chains fell off, my heart was free,
I rose, went forth, and followed Thee.
Still the small inward voice I hear,
That whispers all my sins forgiven;
Still the atoning blood is near, That quenched the wrath of hostile Heaven.
I feel the life His wounds impart;
I feel the Savior in my heart.
I feel the life His wounds impart;
I feel the Savior in my heart.
No condemnation now I dread;
Jesus, and all in Him, is mine;
Alive in Him, my living Head,
And clothed in righteousness divine,
Bold I approach th’eternal throne,
And claim the crown, through Christ my own.
Bold I approach th’eternal throne,
And claim the crown, through Christ my own.
Alright. I'm with ya. I know of penal substitutionary atonement. I have just never seen in acronymed before.
So, you wouldn't classify all songs that testify of the greatness of God as being this, though, would you? The two Tomlin songs that immediately come to my mind (How Great Is Our God and Our God) don't say anything about the depraved state of humanity. Not to say that their aren't others that might. I'd have to look.
Tomlin is an outspoken Calvinist. Calvinist doctrine is present in all of his songs.
Another example of good, at least from a spiritual formation standpoint I really like this song by Jason Gray:
Oooo
Give me rules, I will break them
Show me lines, I will cross them
I need more than a truth to believe
I need a truth that lives, moves, and breathes
To sweep me off my feet
Its gotta be
More like falling in love
Than something to believe in
More like losing my heart
Than giving my allegiance
Caught up, called out
Come take a look at me now
Its like I'm falling, Ohhhh
Its like I'm falling in love
Give me words, I'll misuse them
Obligations, I'll missplace them
Cuz all religion ever made of me
Was just a sinner with a stone tied to my feet
It never set me free
Its gotta be
More like falling in love
Than something to believe in
More like losing my heart
Than giving my allegiance
Caught up, called out
Come take a look at me now
Its like I'm falling
Its like I'm falling in love
Love, Love
Deeper and deeper
It was love that made me a believer
In more than a name, a faith, a creed
Falling in love with Jesus brought the change in me
Its gotta be
More like falling in love
Than something to believe in
More like losing my heart
Than giving my allegiance
Caught up, called out
Come take a look at me now
Its like I'm falling, Ohhhh
Its like I'm falling
Its gotta be
More like falling in love
Than something to believe in
More like losing my heart
Than giving my allegiance
Caught up, called out
Come take a look at me now
Its like I'm falling, Ohhhh
Its like I'm falling
In love
I'm falling in love
As to the bad . . . it is also the lack of songs that deal with reality, with doubt and God's absence, as the Psalms do.
Hans, I just reread your first post, and I noticed this that I missed the first time. And I have to agree with you 100% here. One of the reasons that I prefer listening to "secular" music over "Christian" music is that I find Christian music is a little less than honest. It portrays an idealized reality where people do not struggle or feel depressed. My reality is not like that, though. So I find that I personally connect with what is sometimes said in secular music better than I do with a lot of Christian music.
Originally Posted by Marcus Kibbe
'And Can it Be' is grounded in PSA. Did you know that? Hope that doesn't ruin the song for you.
Long my imprisoned spirit lay,
Fast bound in sin and nature’s night;
Thine eye diffused a quickening ray—
I woke, the dungeon flamed with light;
My chains fell off, my heart was free,
I rose, went forth, and followed Thee.
My chains fell off, my heart was free,
I rose, went forth, and followed Thee.
Still the small inward voice I hear,
That whispers all my sins forgiven;
Still the atoning blood is near, That quenched the wrath of hostile Heaven.
I feel the life His wounds impart;
I feel the Savior in my heart.
I feel the life His wounds impart;
I feel the Savior in my heart.
Originally Posted by Marcus Kibbe
Tomlin is an outspoken Calvinist. Calvinist doctrine is present in all of his songs.
I'll be honest here. I'm not sure if you are raising real objections or are just trying to make a point. I suppose that I could have understood what you've said elsewhere wrong, but you are almost the last person on the forum that I would have anticipated having any problems with these examples. My apologies if I've assumed a Reformed leaning when you actually don't have one.
No, what you bolded in And Can It Be? absolutely does not ruin it for me. I don't really see the first quoted verse as being PSA, and I never sing the second quoted verse. The language of being bound to sin contained in "Long my imprisoned spirit lay, fast bound in sin and nature’s night" seems pretty Biblical to me. Have you ever read Romans?
And to be honest, I do not mind some PSA in my songs. I do not want to turn this into a thread debating atonement theories, but I have always been taught that the COTN does not ascribe to a specific atonement theory and that value can be found in all of them. I certainly do not want the concept of Christ suffering in our place to become the focus of our understanding of atonement (I prefer an understanding that takes the entire incarnation into consideration when trying to explain how we are restored to right relationship with God), but certainly Christ's work on the cross, freeing us from our slavery to sin as he took the penalty that was due us is a part of the picture. So I don't necessarily mind lyrics that have some similarities with PSA, depending on exactly how it is presented. (And I'm sure that others will disagree with me here. That is ok. But if y'all want to get into a conversation on atonement theories, please start a new thread.)
On to your second point about Tomlin, really? Every single one of his songs is overtly Calvinistic? I don't see it. I mentioned two specific songs earlier (Our God and How Great Is Our God), and I do not see either of these as being specifically Calvinistic. Certainly they acknowledge the greatness and superiority of God, but how is that Calvinistic? Certainly Wesleyans can find harmony and agreement with the concept?
So when the gospel is diminished to a question of whether or not a person will “get into heaven,” that reduces the good news to a ticket, a way to get past the bouncer and into the club. The good news is better than that.
Hans, I just reread your first post, and I noticed this that I missed the first time. And I have to agree with you 100% here. One of the reasons that I prefer listening to "secular" music over "Christian" music is that I find Christian music is a little less than honest. It portrays an idealized reality where people do not struggle or feel depressed. My reality is not like that, though. So I find that I personally connect with what is sometimes said in secular music better than I do with a lot of Christian music.
To me, that is the core issue and why I've learned to appreciate the Psalms so much. And I am very grateful for all the attempts to sing them to new tunes. They are worth it!
"No scripture can mean that God is not love, or that his mercy is not over all his works" (John Wesley - Free Grace, 26)
'And Can it Be' is grounded in PSA. Did you know that? Hope that doesn't ruin the song for you.
Long my imprisoned spirit lay,
Fast bound in sin and nature’s night;Thine eye diffused a quickening ray—
I woke, the dungeon flamed with light;
My chains fell off, my heart was free,
I rose, went forth, and followed Thee.
My chains fell off, my heart was free,
I rose, went forth, and followed Thee.
This has nothing to do with PSA. It has to do with depravity. In fact, that's part of what makes this song so beautiful.
Douglas Campbell did a performance of his new, suggested reading of Romans 1:18-3:20 at a conference in December. If you know anything about his Pauline Soteriology, you know he sees zero PSA in Paul, and reads completely a Christus Victor sort of atonement.
Well, he pointed to this verse as the best example of getting Paul's gospel right. Because it has nothing to do with PSA, and everything to do with our slavery to sin being broken and our becoming new creatures in Christ who now are able to conform to the image of Christ - actually be righteous.
Still the small inward voice I hear,
That whispers all my sins forgiven;
Still the atoning blood is near, That quenched the wrath of hostile Heaven.
I feel the life His wounds impart;
I feel the Savior in my heart.
I feel the life His wounds impart;
I feel the Savior in my heart.
No condemnation now I dread;
Jesus, and all in Him, is mine;
Alive in Him, my living Head,
And clothed in righteousness divine,
Bold I approach th’eternal throne,
And claim the crown, through Christ my own.
Bold I approach th’eternal throne,
And claim the crown, through Christ my own.[/I]
This doens't ruin the song, but it does make this verse worthless.
- Ben
Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death! And to those in the tombs, bestowing life!
Χριστὸς ἀνέστη ἐκ νεκρῶν, θανάτῳ θάνατον πατήσας! καὶ τοῖς ἐν τοῖς μνήμασι, ζωὴν χαρισάμενος!
Hans, I just reread your first post, and I noticed this that I missed the first time. And I have to agree with you 100% here. One of the reasons that I prefer listening to "secular" music over "Christian" music is that I find Christian music is a little less than honest. It portrays an idealized reality where people do not struggle or feel depressed. My reality is not like that, though. So I find that I personally connect with what is sometimes said in secular music better than I do with a lot of Christian music.
I don't think of it as a worship tune, but your comments here are reminding me of the song "Never Alone" by Barlow Girl:
I waited for you today
But you didn't show
No no no
I needed You today
So where did You go?
You told me to call
Said You'd be there
And though I haven't seen You
Are You still there?
[Chorus:]
I cried out with no reply
And I can't feel You by my side
So I'll hold tight to what I know
You're here and I"m never alone
And though I cannot see You
And I can't explain why
Such a deep, deep reassurance
You've placed in my life
We cannot separate
'Cause You're part of me
And though You're invisible
I'll trust the unseen
[Chorus]
We cannot separate
You're part of me
And though You're invisible
I'll trust the unseen
To me, that is the core issue and why I've learned to appreciate the Psalms so much. And I am very grateful for all the attempts to sing them to new tunes. They are worth it!
Here we enter into scary territory.... An area where Hans and I agree.
For those interested I put together a list of resources in response to a question by Roy. He never responded, but HERE are the resources, for those interested.
This one is NOT written as a defense for or uniquely from the Exclusive Psalmody position, it is just an encouraging work for those who want to "re-discover" the Psalms in Worship.
Blessings
George
"Preach the gospel; if necessary use words" is like saying "feed the poor and; if necessary use food."
I don't think of it as a worship tune, but your comments here are reminding me of the song "Never Alone" by Barlow Girl:
I waited for you today
But you didn't show
No no no
I needed You today
So where did You go?
You told me to call
Said You'd be there
And though I haven't seen You
Are You still there?
[Chorus:]
I cried out with no reply
And I can't feel You by my side
So I'll hold tight to what I know
You're here and I"m never alone
And though I cannot see You
And I can't explain why
Such a deep, deep reassurance
You've placed in my life
We cannot separate
'Cause You're part of me
And though You're invisible
I'll trust the unseen
[Chorus]
We cannot separate
You're part of me
And though You're invisible
I'll trust the unseen
[Chorus]
This is probably my favorite Barlow Girl song. (Although I can't really say that I spend a lot of time listening to Barlow Girl, so this is the only song that really comes to mind when I hear the band mentioned.)
My interest in music goes far beyond what is sung in a worship service, so this is entirely appropriate in the conversation.
Stretching the limits of what I like musically (my first musical loves are acoustic folk and bluegrass), I love the song Beautiful Bride by Flyleaf. I'm not sure how I feel about the imagery in the video, but the lyrics are almost straight out of 1 Corinthians. And I love the opening line in describing the church: "Unified diversity".
Unified diversity
Functioning as one body
Every part encouraged by the other
No one independent of another
You're irreplaceable, indispensable
You're incredible
Incredible
(Chorus)
Beautiful bride
Body of Christ
One flesh abiding
Strong and unifying
Fighting ends in forgiveness
Unite and fight all division
Beautiful bride
Strengthen your arms now
Train your fingers for battle
Urgency's here now
Train your fingers for battle
Fighting this violence
With your feet wrapped in peace
Sad tears and silence
Now screams of joy
Victory
(Chorus)
We're not gonna fall and forget
How far You went to pick us up
If one part's hurt the whole body's sick
If one part mourns we all mourn with Him
Rejoice, and we'll sing with you
Hallelujah, Hallelujah, Hallelujah, Hallelujah
(Chorus)
So when the gospel is diminished to a question of whether or not a person will “get into heaven,” that reduces the good news to a ticket, a way to get past the bouncer and into the club. The good news is better than that.
Here we enter into scary territory.... An area where Hans and I agree.
Scary, but still, I do believe it is an important area to explore.
I think I've written this before, we have a group of people in the Netherlands who have started the "Psalmen voor nu" (Psalms for today). They are working on setting all the 150 Psalms to new melodies, and newly put into verse. Of course people can and will disagree on the choice of words, they are quite contemporary, but still the basic message of the Psalms definitely shines through.
I don't know if you'd like this, but this is an example of what they are doing:
"No scripture can mean that God is not love, or that his mercy is not over all his works" (John Wesley - Free Grace, 26)
Pretty tune but I dont' get it at all. For me it is definitely a boyfriend song.
About an invisible boyfriend?
To me, it echos the psalms of lament, with all of their cries of "How long, O Lord? Will you hide yourself forever?" and their commitment to trust God even when he's hidden.
Pretty tune but I dont' get it at all. For me it is definitely a boyfriend song.
Really? I guess that I can kinda see that in the first verse, but to me from there on it is clearly about God. I guess that some of the other lines could be used metaphorically about a romantic relationship, but I think that's stretching a bit.
And though I cannot see You
And I can't explain why
Such a deep, deep reassurance
You've placed in my life
We cannot separate
'Cause You're part of me
And though You're invisible
I'll trust the unseen
So when the gospel is diminished to a question of whether or not a person will “get into heaven,” that reduces the good news to a ticket, a way to get past the bouncer and into the club. The good news is better than that.
Scary, but still, I do believe it is an important area to explore.
I think I've written this before, we have a group of people in the Netherlands who have started the "Psalmen voor nu" (Psalms for today). They are working on setting all the 150 Psalms to new melodies, and newly put into verse. Of course people can and will disagree on the choice of words, they are quite contemporary, but still the basic message of the Psalms definitely shines through.
I don't know if you'd like this, but this is an example of what they are doing [...]
Shane & Shane have done a lot of this.
- Ben
Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death! And to those in the tombs, bestowing life!
Χριστὸς ἀνέστη ἐκ νεκρῶν, θανάτῳ θάνατον πατήσας! καὶ τοῖς ἐν τοῖς μνήμασι, ζωὴν χαρισάμενος!
The ultimate "Jesus is my boyfriend" song has to be Celine Dion's Because You Loved Me. She originally recorded this back in the '90s, and it wasn't a Christian song. Then, several years ago I was driving along and listening to a Christian station when it came on. I was like, "What the . . . How is this being played on this station?" Well, I came to find out that it was recorded by Ana Laura, not a big name in the CCM world, but she has a few singles out.
I suppose when looking at the lyrics a I can see where people might draw the connection, but it is a little to sappy/cheesy/lovey-dovey for my tastes.
For all those times you stood by me
For all the truth that you made me see
For all the joy you brought to my life
For all the wrong that you made right
For every dream you made come true
For all the love I found in you
I'll be forever thankful baby
You're the one who held me up
Never let me fall
You're the one who saw me through through it all
You were my strength when I was weak
You were my voice when I couldn't speak
You were my eyes when I couldn't see
You saw the best there was in me
Lifted me up when I couldn't reach
You gave me faith 'coz you believed
I'm everything I am
Because you loved me
You gave me wings and made me fly
You touched my hand I could touch the sky
I lost my faith, you gave it back to me
You said no star was out of reach
You stood by me and I stood tall
I had your love I had it all
I'm grateful for each day you gave me
Maybe I don't know that much
But I know this much is true
I was blessed because I was loved by you
You were my strength when I was weak
You were my voice when I couldn't speak
You were my eyes when I couldn't see
You saw the best there was in me
Lifted me up when I couldn't reach
You gave me faith 'coz you believed
I'm everything I am
Because you loved me
You were always there for me
The tender wind that carried me
A light in the dark shining your love into my life
You've been my inspiration
Through the lies you were the truth
My world is a better place because of you
You were my strength when I was weak
You were my voice when I couldn't speak
You were my eyes when I couldn't see
You saw the best there was in me
Lifted me up when I couldn't reach
You gave me faith 'coz you believed
I'm everything I am
Because you loved me
I'm everything I am
Because you loved me
So when the gospel is diminished to a question of whether or not a person will “get into heaven,” that reduces the good news to a ticket, a way to get past the bouncer and into the club. The good news is better than that.
The ultimate "Jesus is my boyfriend" song has to be Celine Dion's Because You Loved Me. She originally recorded this back in the '90s, and it wasn't a Christian song. Then, several years ago I was driving along and listening to a Christian station when it came on. I was like, "What the . . . How is this being played on this station?" Well, I came to find out that it was recorded by Ana Laura, not a big name in the CCM world, but she has a few singles out.
I suppose when looking at the lyrics a I can see where people might draw the connection, but it is a little to sappy/cheesy/lovey-dovey for my tastes.
Strange......I sang it to my mother for mother's day. Never thought of it as a "Christian" song.....
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Originally Posted by Lucas Finch
