NCAA demands mascot change at ND STATE --- Iron Fisted or Its about time A poll

[Scott Moseley]

So the NCAA have imposed a black and white ban on Uni North Dakota from using the mascot or name "Fighting SIOUX" . What do you think about this? Is the NCAA acting out of bounds or responsibly. My vote is that they are extorting the the School and state to adapt to the NCAA-thought police. Whether the Mascot and name or is inappropriate or not makes no different in my books. Personally I think the mascot name needs a change. Time to give the "Fightin' Sues" a rest, BUT I think the state taxpayers should be able to name their school mascot anything it wants and the NCAA as a private institution should not be allowed to blackmail its member schools into their own preconceived notion of what is offensive or not. YOUR THOUGHTS and COMMENTS welcome.

http://www.ncaa.com/news/ncaa/articl...season-warning

[Craig Laughlin]

Would you feel different if the Sioux tribe owned copyright on the Name?

[Ryan Scott]

This is old news.

[Benjamin Burch]

So the NCAA have imposed a black and white ban on Uni North Dakota from using the mascot or name "Fighting SIOUX" . What do you think about this? Is the NCAA acting out of bounds or responsibly. My vote is that they are extorting the the School and state to adapt to the NCAA-thought police. Whether the Mascot and name or is inappropriate or not makes no different in my books. Personally I think the mascot name needs a change. Time to give the "Fightin' Sues" a rest, BUT I think the state taxpayers should be able to name their school mascot anything it wants and the NCAA as a private institution should not be allowed to blackmail its member schools into their own preconceived notion of what is offensive or not. YOUR THOUGHTS and COMMENTS welcome.

http://www.ncaa.com/news/ncaa/articl...season-warning

I would think that the NCAA, as a private institution, would have every right to decide what names it is willing to associate itself with.

[Ryan Scott]

Could they call themselves the fighting Jews without permission?

A few years ago the NCAA forced McMurry to change its mascot - a school built around the preservation and respect of native american culture.

I'm pretty sure ND is not going to win the battle when they've got an entire tribe protesting.

[Scott Moseley]

Apologies to ND State this story concerns UND. Is it possible for the Moderator to change the title of the thread?

My feelings are that if a state funded institution wishes to call it self the "Fightin' Jews" that state's taxpayers should have the right to approve or dissaprove that position. The NCAA does have a right to make its members comply with any bylaw it states, but is it right in this case? I guess North Dakota could tell tell the NCAA to jump in a lake and move its membership to the NAIA or go independent.

Why doesn't the NCAA PUSH Notre Dame around. Probably quite a few American Irish are offended by the Fight'n leprechaun Mascot? Again I personally think the UND mascot Fight'n Sioux is outdated and needs to chage..BUT I don't think its fair of the NCAA to "legislate" what they deem as offensive or inoffensive.

[Benjamin Burch]

Apologies to ND State this story concerns UND. Is it possible for the Moderator to change the title of the thread?

My feelings are that if a state funded institution wishes to call it self the "Fightin' Jews" that state's taxpayers should have the right to approve or dissaprove that position. The NCAA does have a right to make its members comply with any bylaw it states, but is it right in this case? I guess North Dakota could tell tell the NCAA to jump in a lake and move its membership to the NAIA or go independent.

Why doesn't the NCAA PUSH Notre Dame around. Probably quite a few American Irish are offended by the Fight'n leprechaun Mascot? Again I personally think the UND mascot Fight'n Sioux is outdated and needs to chage..BUT I don't think its fair of the NCAA to "legislate" what they deem as offensive or inoffensive.

Sure it is. We may disagree, but that's the nature of private institutions. The NCAA has every right to legislate what it finds offensive. If for whatever reason they find one offensive, and not another, that is their prerogative, isn't it?

[Bill Morrison]

PC is an interesting phenomenon. I am intrigued that Indians would be offended by a school that honored them by calling themselves the "Fighting Sioux", yet not be offended by a school like mine (MNU) which is the "Pioneers". The pioneers were the ones that came in and ran all the Indians off of their land!
It seems to me logic is not a strong point when dealing with controversial racial issues. Since I am not an Indian, I obviously come at it from a different angle than they do.

BILL

[Jim Franklin]

Having lived in both North Dakota and the Lakota Sioux res. I have followed this story and my understanding is that the tribal leaders themselves voted their support for keeping the name as is. Only a few malcontents made it a pc issue.

Scott, were you not aware that dictatorial governance whether BCS, NCAA or elsewhere is the pc trend these days?

[John Dahl]

This is nothing more than the heavy handedness of a PC entity, the NCAA, flexing it's muscle over a small school. If they were being consistent in the application of their own stated goal of eliminating use of American Indian names, mascots and imagery by member schools, then they wouldn't have carved out exemptions for the Florida State Seminoles or the Illinois Fighting Illini. I can only conclude that because Illinois and FSU are much larger the NCAA leaves them alone.

Organizations like the NCAA provide a needed function, but they should limit themselves to their role of sports. The best way to put these organizations back in their place is for member schools to withhold the dues they pay to the NCAA. The NCAA needs the money from dues more than the schools need the NCAA. But since the member schools themselves are the bastions of political correctness we know what the chances of these actions would be.

Its interesting that two of the Sioux nations in North Dakota support the Fighting Sioux nickname. In fact the Spirit Lake tribe held a vote and the people overwhelmingly support the name. The members of the Standing Rock tribe also support the name but the tribal leaders won't allow a tribal vote on the matter.

http://www.grandforksherald.com/even...roup/homepage/

This article explains how the two tribes actually had a ceremony to give the Fighting Sioux name to the university.

I'm sure when it is resolved the thugs of the NCAA will prevail. The NCAA is basically a union so we probably shouldn't be surprised by their actions.

[Mark Bolerjack]

What would happen if ND State decided not to change the name, and chose to withdraw from the NCAA instead?

[Jim Franklin]

Today's news reveals that the Oregon high school athletics governing body has a proposal on the table to eliminate all nicknames referring to Native Americans.

[Scott Moseley]

Sure it is. We may disagree, but that's the nature of private institutions. The NCAA has every right to legislate what it finds offensive. If for whatever reason they find one offensive, and not another, that is their prerogative, isn't it?

Maybe not every right due to the Monopolistic nature the NCAA has over publicly funded institutions. Their right to legislate what colors and mascot a school chooses could be open for court interpretation. A publicly funded schools viability would be jeopardized if the NCAA forbade it from participation in all NCAA sanctioned sports activities based upon the NCAA's own private interpretation. Just because the NCAA has the power, it is not right.

[Scott Moseley]

This is nothing more than the heavy handedness of a PC entity, the NCAA, flexing it's muscle over a small school. If they were being consistent in the application of their own stated goal of eliminating use of American Indian names, mascots and imagery by member schools, then they wouldn't have carved out exemptions for the Florida State Seminoles or the Illinois Fighting Illini. I can only conclude that because Illinois and FSU are much larger the NCAA leaves them alone.

Organizations like the NCAA provide a needed function, but they should limit themselves to their role of sports. The best way to put these organizations back in their place is for member schools to withhold the dues they pay to the NCAA. The NCAA needs the money from dues more than the schools need the NCAA. But since the member schools themselves are the bastions of political correctness we know what the chances of these actions would be.

Its interesting that two of the Sioux nations in North Dakota support the Fighting Sioux nickname. In fact the Spirit Lake tribe held a vote and the people overwhelmingly support the name. The members of the Standing Rock tribe also support the name but the tribal leaders won't allow a tribal vote on the matter.

http://www.grandforksherald.com/even...roup/homepage/

This article explains how the two tribes actually had a ceremony to give the Fighting Sioux name to the university.

I'm sure when it is resolved the thugs of the NCAA will prevail. The NCAA is basically a union so we probably shouldn't be surprised by their actions.

Excellent article. Thanks for sharing. I hd originally stated I thought the "Fightin' Sioux" name and mascot probably needed to be retired , that it was the NCAA action that were out of line, but after this read and how the the actual Tribes in ND are in favor of the mascot I have changed my mind. If the local Indian tribes in ND are not offended and that use of the mascot came through an actual Tribal Ceremony in religious manner, I am all for UND keeping the mascot and name. Shame on the NCAA for stepping on States and tribal rights.

[Scott Moseley]

Would you feel different if the Sioux tribe owned copyright on the Name?

Interestingly they do own the name and are for it. see article posted by john dahl: http://www.grandforksherald.com/even...roup/homepage/

This is old news.

Its cropped up again, see latest news in article posted above.

[Jim Poteet]

Having lived in both North Dakota and the Lakota Sioux res. I have followed this story and my understanding is that the tribal leaders themselves voted their support for keeping the name as is. Only a few malcontents made it a pc issue.

Scott, were you not aware that dictatorial governance whether BCS, NCAA or elsewhere is the pc trend these days?

Come on Dr. Franklin. The NCAA and the BCS are private organizations who have the right to determine their rules. The NCAA membership voted to do away with racist nicknames. The BCS membership, which does not include Boise Junior College, votes for how the BCS champion is named. Quit crying!

[Jim Poteet]

This is nothing more than the heavy handedness of a PC entity, the NCAA, flexing it's muscle over a small school. If they were being consistent in the application of their own stated goal of eliminating use of American Indian names, mascots and imagery by member schools, then they wouldn't have carved out exemptions for the Florida State Seminoles or the Illinois Fighting Illini. I can only conclude that because Illinois and FSU are much larger the NCAA leaves them alone.

Organizations like the NCAA provide a needed function, but they should limit themselves to their role of sports. The best way to put these organizations back in their place is for member schools to withhold the dues they pay to the NCAA. The NCAA needs the money from dues more than the schools need the NCAA. But since the member schools themselves are the bastions of political correctness we know what the chances of these actions would be.

Its interesting that two of the Sioux nations in North Dakota support the Fighting Sioux nickname. In fact the Spirit Lake tribe held a vote and the people overwhelmingly support the name. The members of the Standing Rock tribe also support the name but the tribal leaders won't allow a tribal vote on the matter.

http://www.grandforksherald.com/even...roup/homepage/

This article explains how the two tribes actually had a ceremony to give the Fighting Sioux name to the university.

I'm sure when it is resolved the thugs of the NCAA will prevail. The NCAA is basically a union so we probably shouldn't be surprised by their actions.

Please know what you are talking about before you post. The NCAA yearly dues for a member institution are only $1000. There are 1200 member institutions in the NCAA paying $1000 per year. The NCAA receives from the member institutions $1.2 million for membership dues. This is "chump change." If an institution were to withhold the annual membership dues assessment, the institution would no longer be a member and could not compete for championships. The institution needs the NCAA much more than the NCAA needs the institution.

A disclaimer - I am not an NCAA supporter. The organization is in big trouble because the "big 64" are eventually going to form their own athletic association and tell the NCAA to "take a hike."

[Jim Poteet]

What would happen if ND State decided not to change the name, and chose to withdraw from the NCAA instead?

I guess they could join the NAIA or have their own association of 1 member (themselves). They could buy a national championship trophy for each sport they participate in and award it to themselves. They could be national champions in every sport.

[Jim Poteet]

Today's news reveals that the Oregon high school athletics governing body has a proposal on the table to eliminate all nicknames referring to Native Americans.

Good. It is about time.

[Jim Poteet]

Maybe not every right due to the Monopolistic nature the NCAA has over publicly funded institutions. Their right to legislate what colors and mascot a school chooses could be open for court interpretation. A publicly funded schools viability would be jeopardized if the NCAA forbade it from participation in all NCAA sanctioned sports activities based upon the NCAA's own private interpretation. Just because the NCAA has the power, it is not right.

I beg to disagree. Remember the institutions choose to join the NCAA.

[Jim Franklin]

At the Nazarene's own Sun Valley Indian School where I was principal and teacher it was interesting that some of the cheering included "Scalp 'em" whether the opposing team was another Indian school or a predominatly non Indian student body.

[Jim Poteet]

At the Nazarene's own Sun Valley Indian School where I was principal and teacher it was interesting that some of the cheering included "Scalp 'em" whether the opposing team was another Indian school or a predominatly non Indian student body.

Does that make it right?

[Scott Moseley]

I beg to disagree. Remember the institutions choose to join the NCAA.

Do you think it would be devastating for a program the size of UND to not join the NCAA? Is there really any choice?

[Jim Poteet]

Do you think it would be devastating for a program the size of UND to not join the NCAA? Is there really any choice?

If you don't like the rules that are voted on by the membership, you either accept them or you choose to leave.

[Scott Moseley]

If you don't like the rules that are voted on by the membership, you either accept them or you choose to leave.

Thats my point exactly. By being a virtual monopoly, (unless I totally don't get it ..which I may not) there is no other choice affiliation for program the size of UND; hence the NCAA judgement calls as to what a school decides to call itself may be subject to court interpretation. Thats whats going on now with this UND case...however the point being argued is that the Souix mascot name does in fact fit within the NCAA's own exceptions & requirements.

Questions for you Coach, If a school like UND, for example, chose to not renew its affiliation with the NCAA, would it be allowed to compete against other NCAA affiliated schools? Does the NCAA disallow competition between member schools and non member schools? Could a non NCAA affiliated school ever hope to crack into the Frozen Four tourney?/the Final Four? Could an NAIA tennis team compete against an NCAA tennis program etc. Just curios what the reprucussions of dropping NCAA affiliation would be? Thanks for shedding some light here.

[Jim Poteet]

Thats my point exactly. By being a virtual monopoly, (unless I totally don't get it ..which I may not) there is no other choice affiliation for program the size of UND; hence the NCAA judgement calls as to what a school decides to call itself may be subject to court interpretation. Thats whats going on now with this UND case...however the point being argued is that the Souix mascot name does in fact fit within the NCAA's own exceptions & requirements.

Questions for you Coach, If a school like UND, for example, chose to not renew its affiliation with the NCAA, would it be allowed to compete against other NCAA affiliated schools? Does the NCAA disallow competition between member schools and non member schools? Could a non NCAA affiliated school ever hope to crack into the Frozen Four tourney?/the Final Four? Could an NAIA tennis team compete against an NCAA tennis program etc. Just curios what the reprucussions of dropping NCAA affiliation would be? Thanks for shedding some light here.

Good question. Yes, the NCAA schools can compete against non-NCAA members. So, it is possible to have a good schedule without membership. However, there would be no post season play. The NAIA would accept UND as a member in a heartbeat as long as UND abided by NAIA rules. NAIA tennis teams compete all the time against NCAA teams. There is a fall tennis championship that brings NAIA & NCAA tennis champions from the previous year together in a singles and doubles championship. There is no team championship in this tournament.

As I said in another post the NCAA is in a very tenuous position right now. The "big 64" (BCS conferences plus Notre Dame) want to control the unbelievable revenue that is generated by that group. To be honest, that group is responsible for probably 90 percent of all TV revenue. They are tired of sharing it with the NCAA and the other 1150 members. The day is close when the "big 64" tells the NCAA to "get lost" and form their own association. The NCAA will then be in the same position as the NAIA - an athletic association with little money to operate and perform its duties.

[Jim Franklin]

Evidently it had been approved through several previous administrations and I was not about to risk my scalp to try to ban it.

[Jim Poteet]

Evidently it had been approved through several previous administrations and I was not about to risk my scalp to try to ban it.

You would look funny without a scalp!

[Jim Franklin]

Funny to you but not to me.