When someone says they are a Christian....

[Dale Cozby]

....but all we know of them seems to indicate they are not a Christian at all.
I mean if they were to be brought up on charges in a court and there was absolutely no evidence to convict them except thier sort of vague "confession" to being a Christian and yet it seems there is plenty of evidence to convict them of not being a Christian....should we believe their words or actions?

This comes up in prison ministries as a question being asked by new Christians who soon see others who claim Christianity and show up at the meetings but when they are back out in the general prison population act just like the rest of the prisoners.

This scripture comes to mind...“If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector."

Pagan: worshipper, follower or disciple of something other than God, a hedonist
Tax-Collector: a jew who has betrayed his kinsmen and serves thier enemies.

Exactly how did Jesus treat pagans? tax-collectors? Hmmm...

[Hans Deventer]

Seems to me the proof of the pudding is in the eating. People can claim anything they want.

This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister. (1 John 3:10)

[Sarah Smith]

Even those of us who believe in instantaneous entire sanctification allow for growth in grace.

What comes to my mind is who are we to judge another's servant?

And not having lived through the extreme pressures of prison, I'd rather not judge the state of their soul.

Their walk, of course, and continue to teach godly behavior.

But Peter blew it often enough, and look how God used him!

[Dennis M. Scott]

From time to time, we are called on to make character judgements. An example is in the case of someone who says they have a call to be a pastor, but their lifestyle leads us to question whether or not such a call is appropriate. While I still am uncomfortable saying the person isn't a Christian, but I have known a number of "Christians" I didn't think would be appropriate in pastoral ministry.

I'd rather say something like, "You may be a Christian, but I feel a desire to be a different kind of Christian. In your walk with the Lord as a Christian, how do you think the Lord feels about parts of your life?"

Warning: the following is not typical of my posts. Years ago, we were doing a "Take Back the Streets" crusade in inner city Boston, and holding interdenominational street corner meetings where drug dealers ruled. A youth group from Denver First Nazarene was with us, along with a number of other urban churches. A former drug dealer had been convicted and spent time in prison, during which time he came to faith. He had sold drugs literally on the corner where we were holding a meeting. He had been paroled in the afternoon of the evening of our meeting, and someone thought it would be good to have him "share a word" on that very street corner. Perhaps we could have rehearsed a little better than we did. Among the parts of his testimony was that he thanked God for helping him in prison, to consistently win at masturbation baseball.

I don't even want to know.

Among the shocked faces was the youth pastor from Denver First, who I know realized he was going to have some explaining to do, both with his kids, and with their parents when he got back to Colorado.

I am confident that our prison parolee had been impacted by a saving relationship with God, but not yet impacted the same way some of the rest of us have been.

[Paul DeBaufer]

Even those of us who believe in instantaneous entire sanctification allow for growth in grace.

What comes to my mind is who are we to judge another's servant?

And not having lived through the extreme pressures of prison, I'd rather not judge the state of their soul.

Their walk, of course, and continue to teach godly behavior.

But Peter blew it often enough, and look how God used him!

Thank you Sarah! I wish more people felt like you do concerning this particular issue.

[Dale Cozby]

I just spent the full day in prison Saturday and they had just come off of a lockdown that lasted 25 days. No activities, no church, no fellowship during that time. You are stuck with your cellmate all day, everyday. It is so easy to fall into bad habits if your only contact is a pagan or heathen celly and your new in your faith. Then when you get free from lockdown, you see so many who, like you, are back in the old bad habits. It is discouraging to them, especially when they know there is a better way to live than the one they see in other "Christians' around them.

Anyway, lockdowns are always tough on the young in faith as it limits thier contacts to the strong of the church. Just like outside Christians who miss church meetings so much they begin to sound, look and act more like the world they are stuck in than thier confession would imply about thier witness.

[Kyle Borger]

I have been reading Hal Perkins "If Jesus Were a Parent", in fact he is here this next week for a revival. At any rate, I suppose one of the issues at hand is their heart. Someone may have trouble breaking a behavior but want help and that is different than the person who sees no reason to change.

We are all sinners and we all need Jesus everyday. Yes, we have Christians in church who don't act like they should and really where else should they be? Shouldn't those who need help be where help is to be found? I have never understood purifying the church since it seems to get rid of those who could have been helped the most while those with the hard hearts remain.

What of their heart? That is my question. If someone points out the behavior of another Christian I would respond that they also need Jesus and it doesn't end with accepting Jesus into our hearts. We must continue to work to give Jesus control of everything.

Now if you have someone who believes that their sinful behavior (based on scripture), is not a problem, then you have a problem.

[Dale Cozby]

Someone may have trouble breaking a behavior but want help and that is different than the person who sees no reason to change.

If someone points out the behavior of another Christian I would respond that they also need Jesus

But isn't that what annoys us about the current events forum? When someone points out that a Democrat did so and so, and the reply is well a Republican did so-and-so. Is pointing out that we are all sinners fixing anything or is it excusing everything. So we all admit we are sinners, ok but does that negate our accountability to help someone else? Is anyone spiritual?

Paul told the Galatians, the church that had the circumsision group messing with it, "Brothers, if someone is caught in a sin, you who are spiritual should restore him gently. But watch yourself, or you also may be tempted."

So how do we hold each other accountable if the answer to being confronted with our sin is to turn the tables on them and point out they are a sinner too(and thus unqualified to help us)?

It is a prideful response to suggest no one is good enough to point out your sin because they are imperfect in some way as well.
A person with that much pride, willing to negate another's wisdom and maturity by defending themselves by pointing thier potential mentors imperfections will probably remain an immature Christian, if they stay in the faith at all.

I think a failure on our part is to not effectively and humbly acknowledge we are not perfect while showing we are spiritual enough to restore them gently without falling into the sin of pride, arrogance or judgmentalism.

[Charles W Christian]

But isn't that what annoys us about the current events forum? When someone points out that a Democrat did so and so, and the reply is well a Republican did so-and-so. Is pointing out that we are all sinners fixing anything or is it excusing everything. So we all admit we are sinners, ok but does that negate our accountability to help someone else? Is anyone spiritual?

Paul told the Galatians, the church that had the circumsision group messing with it, "Brothers, if someone is caught in a sin, you who are spiritual should restore him gently. But watch yourself, or you also may be tempted."

So how do we hold each other accountable if the answer to being confronted with our sin is to turn the tables on them and point out they are a sinner too(and thus unqualified to help us)?

It is a prideful response to suggest no one is good enough to point out your sin because they are imperfect in some way as well.
A person with that much pride, willing to negate another's wisdom and maturity by defending themselves by pointing thier potential mentors imperfections will probably remain an immature Christian, if they stay in the faith at all.

I think a failure on our part is to not effectively and humbly acknowledge we are not perfect while showing we are spiritual enough to restore them gently without falling into the sin of pride, arrogance or judgmentalism.

Jesus got onto preacher types the most for things like hypocrisy. You know, like saying someone is "pro" one thing when maybe his/her actions demonstrate otherwise. Stuff like that.

[John Kennedy]

I'm still kind of wondering when God died or went on vacation and turned the job of deciding over to us.

Let's just get real honest about this whole thread - most of the concern about the question is based on the premise that Barack Obama can't possibly be a REAL Christian. The very question itself has become so politicized that it wouldn't make any difference if the man was an ordained elder in the COTN.

[Susan Unger]

When someone says they are a Christian....
....but all we know of them seems to indicate they are not a Christian at all.
I mean if they were to be brought up on charges in a court and there was absolutely no evidence to convict them except thier sort of vague "confession" to being a Christian and yet it seems there is plenty of evidence to convict them of not being a Christian....should we believe their words or actions?

This comes up in prison ministries as a question being asked by new Christians who soon see others who claim Christianity and show up at the meetings but when they are back out in the general prison population act just like the rest of the prisoners.

I had a relative who fit that description. She was verball and physically abusive. She was so bad that another relative won't have anything to do with God or salvation.

When discussing scenarios like this I try to keep the discussion to the fruits of their walk and leave salvation up to God.

[Karen Troxler]

When someone claims to be a Christian, and based on their "fruit" or lack of it, we have doubts, I believe our first response should be to pray for him or her. While I'd be lying if I said I always did that, I am working on it (with God's help of course). In order to have the right to point out to someone a sin or inconsistency that we observe in their life, I believe we need to have a relationship with that person. If the person in question knows we love them, they are more likely to accept what we have to say. Even then we should only do it after much prayer and God's leading, AND in a kind, loving manner. I don't know about you, but when I sense the Holy Spirit convicting me of something in my life, He always speaks gently, and I know He still loves me, which is why He is convicting me.

[Ed DiSante]

From time to time, we are called on to make character judgements. An example is in the case of someone who says they have a call to be a pastor, but their lifestyle leads us to question whether or not such a call is appropriate. While I still am uncomfortable saying the person isn't a Christian, but I have known a number of "Christians" I didn't think would be appropriate in pastoral ministry.

I'd rather say something like, "You may be a Christian, but I feel a desire to be a different kind of Christian. In your walk with the Lord as a Christian, how do you think the Lord feels about parts of your life?"

Warning: the following is not typical of my posts. Years ago, we were doing a "Take Back the Streets" crusade in inner city Boston, and holding interdenominational street corner meetings where drug dealers ruled. A youth group from Denver First Nazarene was with us, along with a number of other urban churches. A former drug dealer had been convicted and spent time in prison, during which time he came to faith. He had sold drugs literally on the corner where we were holding a meeting. He had been paroled in the afternoon of the evening of our meeting, and someone thought it would be good to have him "share a word" on that very street corner. Perhaps we could have rehearsed a little better than we did. Among the parts of his testimony was that he thanked God for helping him in prison, to consistently win at masturbation baseball.

I don't even want to know.

Among the shocked faces was the youth pastor from Denver First, who I know realized he was going to have some explaining to do, both with his kids, and with their parents when he got back to Colorado.

I am confident that our prison parolee had been impacted by a saving relationship with God, but not yet impacted the same way some of the rest of us have been.

While this does make me smile--It points out to me how careful we must be in thinking that we "understand" and "know" other people's experiences and realities and therefore be very slow to come to any conclusions about those realities and experiences

[Dale Cozby]

I'm still kind of wondering when God died or went on vacation and turned the job of deciding over to us.

Let's just get real honest about this whole thread - most of the concern about the question is based on the premise that Barack Obama can't possibly be a REAL Christian. The very question itself has become so politicized that it wouldn't make any difference if the man was an ordained elder in the COTN.

Actually, I could care less if Obama burns voodoo dolls, smokes weed or commits adultery in the White House. He will do as he pleases and there is nothing any of us can do about it except vote for or against him in November. Thats it. Big deal...life goes on.
This thread is about what happened in Beto Prison on Saturday in Tennesse Colony Texas. Having over 300 brothers in white suffering from a 25 day lockdown that followed by being relocated into wings all over ther prison as the new warden broke up the faith based wings and dispearsed the brothers into small enclaves in gang territory wings. What do you tell a young Christian about how he should respond to a brother who is shrinking back and not acting or behaving like a Christian? Paul rebuked Peter when he did it. Anyone care to suggest Paul was wrong? Should Peter have pointed out Paul's past sins to justify himself? So many act like they are unqualified to address sin and maybe they are. Does that mean no one is qualified to address sinfulness? Does it mean we all go through life never holding or being held accountable for our actions? This sounds like the devil to me. Break us up and keep us from helping each other.

I know you may and Dr. Charles Christian does have hard time with my views about the current US president. But that is for the current events thread....if you can seperate yourself from your politics that would be nice. Politics is not worth much to me really as we all have so very little say in anything it is like talking about angels on the head of a pin. The reality is how do you and I live and interact with other people, Christian, pseudo-Christian, and otherwise. What does it mean to treat someone like a pagan when they claim to be a Christian?

[Todd Erickson]

What are we actually calling people to when they are Christian? It has to be more than just actions. Certainly, the experience that these prisoners go through will sort out those for whom the seed fell on shallow soil from those where it truly took root...

[Dale Cozby]

What are we actually calling people to when they are Christian? It has to be more than just actions. Certainly, the experience that these prisoners go through will sort out those for whom the seed fell on shallow soil from those where it truly took root...

Then Jesus told this parable: “A man had a fig tree, planted in his vineyard, and he went to look for fruit on it, but did not find any. So he said to the man who took care of the vineyard, ‘For three years now I’ve been coming to look for fruit on this fig tree and haven’t found any. Cut it down! Why should it use up the soil?
“‘Sir,’ the man replied, ‘leave it alone for one more year, and I’ll dig around it and fertilize it. If it bears fruit next year, fine! If not, then cut it down.’”

If the the owner is God, the caretaker is...?
Is this a parable about intercessory prayer for the unfruitful?
If the person in the shallow soil was my loved one, wouldn't I want to have the master spare them for one more season while I worked with them? I guess I have come to view everyone as a loved one....even if I am very disappointed in them.
If that is so for me how much more Jesus?
I hate giving up on anyone....even if all I can do is pray that God will do the tilling and fertilizing and watering because I can't do it.
Maybe I am just a hard head....

[Paul DeBaufer]

Then Jesus told this parable: “A man had a fig tree, planted in his vineyard, and he went to look for fruit on it, but did not find any. So he said to the man who took care of the vineyard, ‘For three years now I’ve been coming to look for fruit on this fig tree and haven’t found any. Cut it down! Why should it use up the soil?
“‘Sir,’ the man replied, ‘leave it alone for one more year, and I’ll dig around it and fertilize it. If it bears fruit next year, fine! If not, then cut it down.’”

If the the owner is God, the caretaker is...?
Is this a parable about intercessory prayer for the unfruitful?
If the person in the shallow soil was my loved one, wouldn't I want to have the master spare them for one more season while I worked with them? I guess I have come to view everyone as a loved one....even if I am very disappointed in them.
If that is so for me how much more Jesus?
I hate giving up on anyone....even if all I can do is pray that God will do the tilling and fertilizing and watering because I can't do it.
Maybe I am just a hard head....

My, personal, take on the parable is that those who are not producing Kingdom fruit need further discipleship and shouldn't be given up on easily. I work in Christian recovery and it's hard to give up on people. But there comes a time when we realize that the person just isn't ready and more discipleship has no effect. Sometimes these come back at a later point and get it. But, yeah it is hard to give up.

[Mike Schutz]

As a young Christian, I sat in a Sunday evening service at the Wollaston Church of the Nazarene on the campus of Eastern Nazarene College. That evening I was sitting next to one of my mentors, Dr. Don Young, then the Academic Dean of the college, and the son of G.S. Samuel Young. It was testimony time, and after one gentlemen shared, Dean Young leaned over to me and said "It is best to always accept someone's personal testimony at face value."

Therefore, I have made it a practice to accept that if someone says they are a Christian, I believe them.

Their life will evidence whether they are a good Christian or a bad Christian.

And it is up to God to decide if they are good - enough.

However, to the point of the thread, I am of the opinion that it is best left to those who are in a relationship with a person to admonish. I have seen people driven from the church because someone who did not have that kind of relationship thought it to be their place to offer a critique of the discrepancy between their talk and walk.