This gets sticky when those "non-Christian beliefs" he's mixing with are Patriotic, doesn't it?
This gets sticky when those "non-Christian beliefs" he's mixing with are Patriotic, doesn't it?
Post Thanks / Like - 5 Thanks, 0 LaughingValisha Trammell Hall, Lucas Finch, Susan Unger, Diane Likens, Paul DeBaufer - "thanks" for this post
Does that fall under "anything that Christians in general would consider an unacceptable deviation of the gospel"?Originally Posted by Todd Erickson
But even if so, go ahead, how would you proceed?
"No scripture can mean that God is not love, or that his mercy is not over all his works" (John Wesley - Free Grace, 26)Post Thanks / Like - 1 Thanks, 0 Laughing
at this point? Keep my mouth shut. If it became too onerous, I would leave and go to another church. The patriotic folk Christianity is simply too popular here in the U.S.
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I'll just add, at one of our home group meetings a member of the group brought up something heard on Christian radio - the idea that saying the pledge of allegiance is idolatry. She said this had never crossed her mind, but she had been thinking about it and wondered what other people thought.
I told her that, in my view, it looks a lot like synchretism. There is an image of worship, creeds, even music - patriotism has a liturgy. I also told her not everyone agrees with me, but it's certainly troubling enough to me that I don't say the pledge of allegiance and would not want my children learning it. I also told her she should spend more time thinking about it and decide for herself.
We haven't talked about this issue since then, but it hasn't damaged the relationship. I've found people, even those who vehemently disagree, appreciate someone who's thought through their opinions and can explain them without attacking or becoming defensive. It's also important not to assume an attitude of arrogance or authority about "what is right," but appeal to the various authorities people have in their lives (scripture, church, tradition, logic, family, experience, etc).
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That is over the top for me. Allegiance does not equal worship. You have no allegiance to anything? Your parents? your spouse? Your employer? The Red Sox?
Maybe in the spiritual realm of life, we should not have nations. But, in the practical realm of everyday life which we hope to survive and live in some sort of order, yes, I say the pledge of allegiance to the US flag and am pleased to be an American despite its imperfections. Its what I know, it works for me, and it allows me to share concern for others without persecution, and worship my God freely. I sure don't worship the US flag or our government or the ground I walk on, but I would defend it if I had to. Others might do this as worship but they are the ones with a problem.
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I agree with Todd and may even go further. Patriotism in some circles (very vocal) has elevated to the position of the Imperial Pagan Cult. Many within our churches have capitulated and there is a syncretism between Christianity and this imperial paganism. How does one speak out about it without causing offense? I don't know because for many just the mention or even hint that this actually exists sets off in them their most ardent defense mechanisms. Wasn't this at the heart of the persecution that Paul faced? He laid claim that the imperial cult was false and that Jesus was the true God. He does so by usurping the language and terms used within the imperial cult and redirecting them to Jesus. Today we seem to face the opposite usurpation of language for the imperial cult away from Christ. While no one would ever admit to doing this, and I doubt that any really believe that they are, and isn't that the insidiousness of syncretism, that we don't really see that we are doing it?
Paulo Friere in Pedagogy of the Oppressed tells us that you cannot tell oppressed people directly that they are oppressed, but you have to guide them to the discovery on their own. I think the same type of tactic needs to be employed when dealing with syncretism in the church, especially if it is so wide spread as the imperial cult type. But how does one go about this I do not know. So, like Todd, in most venues I remain silent or I speak out and offend, which does not good. Like Ryan I will not participate by reciting the pledge of allegience or holding my hand over my heart during the Star Spangled Banner.
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So, we have what some of us perceive as a very real example of syncretism in the church today. A syncretism that would not be recognized as such by many. The problem now is how do we express our concerns? The direct approach triggers defensive responses. So how do we help those practicing and preaching such syncratism see it as such? Let's face it the syncretism we are talking about is subtle and well ingrained. It is difficult to address. But then I must ask myself, is what I am seeing actually leading people astray? I think I need to answer that question first. In the example it does for some, leads to being ungraceful. But for some it doesn't. When would it be appropriate to address?
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It seems to be persons who have not reason to defend freedom can so easily dispose of the pledge of allegiance and the flag flying over the United States of America. I thank God I was born American..should your life take you to places where injustice without impunity are the norm (think Syria for a quick answer)...I am at loss for words to express myself
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I have been attempting to formulate my thoughts on this issue. Having lived in other cultures there were times when I felt Patriotic to America and other times when I was ashamed to admit where I was from. (having seen the "Ugly American" tourist from the other side of the mirror)
Part of our freedom in America is being able to have and express those thoughts and feelings without being punished for doing so
On the other hand being American doesn't make one a Christian any more than being a Christian can be associated with the American form of government and democracy (yes there are other forms of democracy) and to confuse these things is dangerous, especially if it comes from the pulpit
You can be proud of your culture and government (or not) and still be a Christian (or not). And in America we have the right and privilege of expressing that in the ways that we choose. And as Americans and as Christians especially we need to respect the feelings and opinions of others even when they are not the same as our own
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I am thankful for the good things that are part of being born and raised in America. However, I agree that it is too common in church life for America to get more praise than Jesus gets. I have seen patriotic "worship" services that are just plain old idolatry: songs elevating America without a word about God or Jesus or the Kingdom of God, with plenty of "amens" being shouted! If the tune had been about any other country, the same crowd would complain. But, put in the word "America" and suddenly it's OK!
We should definitely be more discerning. We can be thankful for the blessings God has given any nation without elevating that nation above the Kingdom of God. If we are serious about the Bible and about Jesus, then we recognize that even the kingdom called America is one that will not be around forever. Only the Kingdom of God will be around forever, and its citizens have a higher loyalty to the Kingdom of God than to any other kingdom or entity.
And can I add that as much as I respect our soldiers, including many generations of soldiers in my own family, their sacrifice is NOT the same as that of Jesus Christ. They are not to be worshiped either. They can be appreciated and respected, but not worshiped. The Christians I know who have served in the military do not want to be worshiped they way they are in many "Christian" settings! Againn, some discernment would be nice....
Charles
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I see nothing wrong with saying the pledge of allegiance however I would think it would be in poor taste to have the pledge recited in church, unless at a veterans day or Indpendence Day celebration. I also think the US Flag in a Christian place of worship is out of place (along with the christian flag) . I do think we should love our country wherever we are from in so much as the we are commanded to love our neighbors as our selves. We should thank God for our own nation and peoples; and we should be unified in allegiance with our "tribe" .
Ryan, Good thing you didn't grow up in Texas.. as they make the kids there not only pledge allegiance to the US Flag , but also to the Texas Flag. Your children along with the poor Jehovah Witness kids would have to duck twice.
https://www.tsl.state.tx.us/ref/abouttx/flagpledge.html http://www.chron.com/news/houston-te...ge-1822212.php
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Why would a church have a Veteran's Day or Independence Day celebration?
A Christian doesn't have a "tribe" outside of all people of God, spread across all the earth. Geographical lines don't separate the family of God. So it is not possible, in my mind, that we can be unified in allegiance with any individual tribe other than the people of God.I do think we should love our country wherever we are from in so much as the we are commanded to love our neighbors as our selves. We should thank God for our own nation and peoples; and we should be unified in allegiance with our "tribe" .
No worldly government can make a Christian do anything.Good thing you didn't grow up in Texas.. as they make the kids there not only pledge allegiance to the US Flag , but also to the Texas Flag.
Most good things have been said far too many times and just need to be lived. - Shane ClaibornePost Thanks / Like - 2 Thanks, 0 Laughing
As an American, I own everything that we've done, good and bad.
Which means that I must own deposing national governments to insert dicators who ruthlessly abused their people so that we could profit.
It means that I must own how my government has exploited other nations, both for resources, and to prevent them from becoming competition.
I must own how my government has used assassination and threats to achieve many ends.
And none of those things are in any way coherent with Christ.
If I identify with America, I identify with all of America. And here we have an issue.
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Well, Ok, just so long as I wouldn't have to sing "Texas, my Texas....." Now if it was "The eyes of Texas...", that might be a different matter.
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I never recited the pledge in High School. I stand even more firmly by that decision today. In my opinion, the Pledge, as well as the singing of the Anthem, with the associated responses and gestures, are liturgical practices which attempt to compete with the liturgical practices of our religion.
The adding of "under God" is, in itself, a religioius addition which calls us to recognize that whoever our God is, this God is certainly in agreement with what the United States does, as allegiance to one is allegiance to the other as well.
- Ben
Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death! And to those in the tombs, bestowing life!
Χριστὸς ἀνέστη ἐκ νεκρῶν, θανάτῳ θάνατον πατήσας! καὶ τοῖς ἐν τοῖς μνήμασι, ζωὴν χαρισάμενος!Post Thanks / Like - 2 Thanks, 0 Laughing
When in Junior High I had to go stand in the hall or was sent to the principles office on more occasions than I can count for refusing to recite the pledge of allegiance. Sometimes I would stand, sometimes not. But it was REQUIRED in the schools I went to, public schools.
You can be right or you can be in relationship
"Bogus" and "red herring" would be ways I would describe this issue.
Patriotic syncretism may be an issue with someone, but I've never met such a person. I have however met LOTS of Christians who love their country and who would die for it and who see it as a God-given gift. In a heartbeat they would defend their country, but on the other hand they would never worship their country with or over God.
On the other hand, I have encountered a few (mostly here on NazNet) who see any demonstration of patriotism as a spiritual sellout. It is truly bogus, red herring, reverse self-righteous judgementalism. And, by the way, I am as entitled to my opinion just as much as anyone else on this thread. So there! Ha!
The red herring in this case is particularly odoriferous because it is laid out like it is either just out of the sea or just out of the freezer. It isn't. It is straight out of the smelly, musty, labrynth of historic divisionalism. (sometimes I surprise even myself with my ability to string words together!) It looks good, but it is rotten on the inside.
Syncretism is when a person merges and super-collides ingredients of other beliefs with spiritual loyalty to and worship of God. Some people may do that, but I have never met one. There is a difference between a syncretist and a person whose heart belongs to God and who happens to have other interests in life that are precious.
I don't expect my post to change any of the syncreta-phobic minds on this thread, but I do hope that folks who happen to love the pledge, the National Anthem, the flag will take heart. When you read their broad, sweeping accusations just understand that they are simply sharing their opinions. Their narrow minds (which are often quite broad in other discussions) simply do not understand our ability to have devotion to God through Jesus Christ in the power of the Holy Spirit at the very apex and in every aspect of our lives while at the same time being thankful for and appreciative of something really good!!!
This post has been read and approved by Wes Smith and represents his opinion, which is sometimes right. Would wish that our syncreticaphobes would be so generous as to state their views as opinions and get off the backs of the folks who love God with their whole heart, soul, mind and strength and their neighbors as themselves and consider themselves to be patriots (whatever country they call home).
Friend,
Wes
Last edited by Wes Smith; March 14th, 2012 at 08:09 PM. Reason: Divinely inspired addition!
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Cool. But maybe it'd be helpful if you would try to engage some of what has been said by those you disagree with.
If all Christians in the world see their country as a God-given gift, couldn't that lead to Christians fighting for their country against other Christians who are fighting for their country? That would be tragic. And un-kingdom-of-God. And sad.Patriotic syncretism may be an issue with someone, but I've never met such a person. I have however met LOTS of Christians who love their country and who would die for it and who see it as a God-given gift. In a heartbeat they would defend their country, but on the other hand they would never worship their country with or over God.
I'm willing to lay down my life, too, but that's based on my citizenship in the kingdom of God and what Christ has already done, not on earthly countries.
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Ahem. Read my post. I dealt with the issues that the syncretaphobes keep raising. Could I say it any plainer? If they want to miserate re. the various aspects of patriotism and faith, let them do it without framing the rest of us in some kind of heresy.
Your comment about all nations being Christian and fighting against each other is pure psychic mumbo jumbo. I'll let you and other folks who are more intestested in such nonsensical potential continue that discussion.
Good. I honor you for being willing to lay down your life for the kingdom of God. There are other good, God-fearing, Bible-believing, Jesus-loving people who would do that right along with you. But they would also do so for their country and for their freedoms. That does not make them syncretists. It makes them good, God-fearing, Bible-believing, Jesus-loving people who also love and treasure their country.
Friend,
Wes
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i.e., Wes is fine with Christian Americans bombing Christian Iraqi's, because Christians have to defend their nation, and hey, they're going to heaven anyway, right?
Post Thanks / Like - 1 Thanks, 1 LaughingMarcus Kibbe - thanks for this funny post
Todd - please, where did Wes say that? I don't read that in his comments at all.
Wes, Why the name calling? It is offensive, divisive, and unhelpful and really has no place in any type of discussion.
I, too, had met patriotic Christians for whom patriotism and Christian belief do not rise to a level of syncretism. The vast majority may well fall into this category. I have met those for whom it has been syncratic. I do not believe that they are intentional about combining their beliefs, nor do they recognize it as such. Your idea that for something to be syncratic it must be "Super-collides" together doesn't fit the actual definition, which is espousing two, oft contradictory beliefs together. In my mind, and therefore my opinion, we do this when we hold patriotic services on Sundays at the same time we are gathered to worship God. Is there any one of us who hasn't experienced such a service? I say syncratic because it rises to the level of teaching, espousing, worshiping two, mutually exclusive systems of belief and worship simultaneously, thereby fitting the definition. Is it subtle? Yes. Is it damaging? Maybe not, but could have that potential, enough to make me uncomfortable yet not enough for me to leave an otherwise orthodox church.
You can be right or you can be in relationship
I believe that Todd's comment can fairly reasonably be inferred from, "Your comment about all nations being Christian and fighting against each other is pure psychic mumbo jumbo." It may not be what Wes actually means or feels, but the inference is fair, I believe.
You can be right or you can be in relationship
What you don't seem to understand, Wes, that too many people the act of pledging allegiance is an act of worship. Thus it is contradictory to them, to hear, "I'll pledge my allegiance to my flag but I don't worship it."
Furthermore, offering oneself in sacrifice for their flag/country is also seen by many to be an act of worship. (See Romans 12:1-2). Thus it is also contradictory to them to hear, "I'd give my life for my flag/country but I don't worship it."
I think we can all agree that are to give to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's. What we differ on is in which of those two categories certain behaviors fall.
Wilson
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Let's talk sanctity of human life... What things would God feel warranted sacrificing human life for? Freedom of speech? The right to bear arms? Having the right kind of governing body?
It might sound valiant and heroic to say, "I'd sacrifice my life for our freedoms," but IF God values human life more than he values our freedoms then it is idolatrous to give one's life for our freedom (and murderous to take life for the sake our freedom).
Wilson
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I was schooled in Texas public schools 2nd grade through 12th This is the first time I know about a salute to the Texas State flag
May I always be the kind of person my dog thinks I am
Your question is a bit mystifying. The underlying statement of this thread is that Christians who are patriots are...syncretists. Where were you when that "name" was laid on the table. And, this is by far from the first time on NazNet.
Perhaps you were assuming that thinking people were not reading your words, "Patriotism in some circles (very vocal) has elevated to the position of the Imperial Pagan Cult. Many within our churches have capitulated and there is a syncretism between Christianity and this imperial paganism." Imperial PAGAN Cult? Many? Our? So, would you feel better if I rubbed my intellectual chin a bit and asked you to, uh, "flesh that out for us."? Good grief.
I honestly don't have a lot of emotion wrapped up in this response or the previous one. Actually, just trying to have a bit of fun here. I said in my earlier post that I didn't think my words would change the folks who are pushing the syncretic/patriotism subject, but that I hoped to help some of the patriotic Christians feel less offended by the phobia expressed by some.
"So, we have what some of us perceive as a very real example of syncretism in the church today. A syncretism that would not be recognized as such by many." If you want to circle back around and look for some rationale as to the reason for my terms, just take a look at your own. Along with the "imperial pagan" description, it seems that even the folks who may not be so imperial or pagan are at least syncretistic to a some low level degree, in fact not even recognized by...many. What believer entered this day hoping to be labeled as syncretistic? And who wanted that label placed upon them by a fellow believer?
Honestly, I'd prefer that you and the other folks here would initiate and have this discussion outside the context of Christianity. Why is it necessary to talk about syncretism, having serious talks with friends and pastors who are patriotic, even to the extent of getting up and leaving?
I've not read one word in any of these discussions about a patriot suggesting that any of you are less Christian because you all are not patriotic. How about some two-way grace?
Friend,
Wes
as the faults of An Ugly American are not in question..As an American..and in comparison with dictator-led countries..have you any American values you as an American can identify with??
May I always be the kind of person my dog thinks I am
Wilson,
Urban Legend should be left to FaceBook and email. It has no place on NazNet. Name three people for whom pledging allegiance is an act of worship, and, have them post their testimonies here. I'll grant you that just as one can find a person who spreads grape jelly on mashed potatoes, one can probably find someone somewhere who worships some aspect of patriotism. In my 64 years of life I simply have not run across that person.
On the other hand, if God-displacing patriotism is perceived by some Christian as being widespread, even, systemic, then he/she will see it behind every bush and tree. Obviously.
Friend,
Wes
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Wilson,
I am SO happy for you have your insights here.
But from my perspective the greatest bully in the Universe would be God and he has intervened over and over again on behalf of needy people. In fact depending on how one understands end times, there is a huge lake of fire on the way and God's arch-enemy can't be too happy about it. It would be interesting to see the state of this world had not right been willing to face wrong, both Divine and human.
Friend,
Wes
Nobody is through out names and being "phobic" to anyone. Can we not dialogue about this?
Obviously I dont think it's psychic mumbo jumbo at all (I think you mean psychotic, but I don't think it's that kind of mumbo jumbo either), which is why I wish you would actually engage what we're saying.Your comment about all nations being Christian and fighting against each other is pure psychic mumbo jumbo.
But isn't that the definition of syncretism? The mixing/fusion of religious/philosophical beliefs and principles. Mixing the kingdom of God with the kingdoms of the world. That's what this sounds like to me. Help me understand why you think it is not the mixing of a worldly kingdom with the kingdom of God.Good. I honor you for being willing to lay down your life for the kingdom of God. There are other good, God-fearing, Bible-believing, Jesus-loving people who would do that right along with you. But they would also do so for their country and for their freedoms. That does not make them syncretists. It makes them good, God-fearing, Bible-believing, Jesus-loving people who also love and treasure their country.
Most good things have been said far too many times and just need to be lived. - Shane ClaibornePost Thanks / Like - 1 Thanks, 0 Laughing
I agree with Wes...who..among the thousands standing at a ball game as the SSB is played considers this patriotic measure an act of worship????.. one day in the 365 calendar is dedicated to sing Happy Birthday America...I thank God I am an American..and no Wilson..when I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America..I am not worshiping...I am doing one simple task...honoring the flag that was first sewed by Betsy Ross and the history of the country that flag represents.
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I was about to say that I don't have a problem with patriotism - never said I did. The problem comes if/when patriotism leads to aligning ourselves with kingdoms of this world, expressed especially in taking up arms against other kingdoms of the world, over and against aligning ourselves with the self-emptying love of the kingdom of God.
Most good things have been said far too many times and just need to be lived. - Shane Claiborne
That's an odd thing for a Wesleyan to say.
Last edited by Ryan Pugh; March 14th, 2012 at 11:37 PM.
Most good things have been said far too many times and just need to be lived. - Shane Claiborne
That's the thing, though. God defeated the wrong by giving himself up in love for his enemies. No kingdom of the world will last long by doing that. How do we pledge allegiance to two kingdoms that don't operate by the same principles?
Most good things have been said far too many times and just need to be lived. - Shane Claiborne
Paul,
The context of this thread revolves around, in my opinion, some believers labeling other believers as syncretists because of their patriotism. Lots of patriots say they would be willing to die for their country.
Ryan suggested that, "If all Christians in the world see their country as a God-given gift, couldn't that lead to Christians fighting for their country against other Christians who are fighting for their country? That would be tragic. And un-kingdom-of-God. And sad." There may be some truth to that, but my response is that has little to do with this subject of patriotic/syncretism. There is an accusatory, judgemental leaning here and I'd just like to declare my sympathy towards Christian patriots. Perhaps Christians in some countries fighting Christians in other countries is fodder for another thread?
Friend,
Wes
Friend,
Wes
New Year celebrations have rituals ..as well as does Valentine Day and St Patrick Day, your birthday..none of these are in competition with Christian rituals and liturgy expressed in sharing Communion or baptism and the Orthodox and catholic liturgy ..I do not read or interpret or align patriotic rituals with the those of the church
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Why is that odd? The Old Testament is filled with examples of God using his powers to overcome (destroy) the enemy. I'm not a great fan of hell, but the New Testament has significant things to say about the results of refusing to do things God's way and it ends with a cosmic description of destruction both here on earth and in the eternal.
How would this world be a better place if Germany or Japan had won WWII?
My perception is that this thread is not about Christians in the various nations fighting each other or about my thoughts in this post, this thread is about labeling patriotic Christians as syncretists and as I said previously, it would be nice to see some two-way grace demonstrated here.
Friend,
Wes
Last edited by Wes Smith; March 15th, 2012 at 05:40 AM.
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This is exactly what happened in the Revolutionary War. But..... that threatens the entire fabric of America!!!! Oh my goodness!!!
America offers me no freedoms. Only luxuries. It's a luxury in life that I can worship without being persecuted. It is not a freedom. It is not worth fighting for. Not worth killing for. Not worth pledging allegiance to.
- Ben
Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death! And to those in the tombs, bestowing life!
Χριστὸς ἀνέστη ἐκ νεκρῶν, θανάτῳ θάνατον πατήσας! καὶ τοῖς ἐν τοῖς μνήμασι, ζωὴν χαρισάμενος!Post Thanks / Like - 3 Thanks, 0 Laughing
The nation does so for you, and we often don't realize the way we're co-opted through the use of religious symbols, religious practices, and religious language.
Would you say that soldiers laid down their lives for you so that you could be free?
Do we not see how this is blatantly Christian religious language co-opted so that we could speak about our nation religiously without knowing it?
- Ben
Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death! And to those in the tombs, bestowing life!
Χριστὸς ἀνέστη ἐκ νεκρῶν, θανάτῳ θάνατον πατήσας! καὶ τοῖς ἐν τοῖς μνήμασι, ζωὴν χαρισάμενος!Post Thanks / Like - 1 Thanks, 0 Laughing
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