This assumes that we know what we're being suckered into. We often don't.Originally Posted by Judy Hamilton
When we are willing to fight and kill for a flag, it is an act of worship. The pledge of allegiance and national anthem serve as liturgical devices to grow the sense of pride that would lead us to fight and kill for said flag.
- Ben
Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death! And to those in the tombs, bestowing life!
Χριστὸς ἀνέστη ἐκ νεκρῶν, θανάτῳ θάνατον πατήσας! καὶ τοῖς ἐν τοῖς μνήμασι, ζωὴν χαρισάμενος!Post Thanks / Like - 3 Thanks, 0 Laughing
Speaking of straw men and red herrings--Nobody said anything about the patriotic being less Christian, except you here. All I or anyone has suggested is that for some the patriotic and Christian message gets combined and espoused together. For some as if they are the same or that one implies the other, that stands against what the bible teaches. Doesn't make them unChristian, just pollutes the message of the Gospel to a degree.
You say that in 64 years you have never seen this occur. Would you recognize it if you did?
When I say 'our" I am speaking of the American church, or better the church in America not necessarily the CotN, although I've seen it in CotN churches, more so from our fundamentalist brothers and sisters
You can be right or you can be in relationshipPost Thanks / Like - 1 Thanks, 0 LaughingTodd Erickson - "thanks" for this post
It would indeed be sad to find Christian killing Christian in the name of some political identity. Personally, I have less issue with Christians dying for country than I do with them being in a position where they have to kill for country. My prayer for all of our soldiers, especially Christian soldiers, is that they not have to kill. How sad is that? I know it is a reality, but it is a sad reality. Added: Let me state explicitly that I do not think it, in and of itself, makes them less Christian.
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Wes, I get it that you do not believe you are worshipping when you say the pledge. I will go so far as to say that no Christian "says the pledge" believing they are worshipping when they do so.
However, it is also a fact that there are Christians who believe that the very act of "saying the pledge" is in fact an act of worship. Those particular Christians, for that reason, do not say the pledge.
[Wes, how about an analogy: There are some Christians who believe texting "OMG" is taking the Lord's name in vain (because it does actually mean, "Oh my God"). Those Chrisitans don't text that expression. Meanwhile there are other Christians who do not believe texting OMG rises to the level of taking the name of the Lord's name in vain and they do use that expression in their texts. Do we call those who do think it is taking the name of the Lord in vain, "Name-in-Vain-ophobes?" Do we tell them it is urban legend that people take the Lord's name in vain?]
Wilson
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I've actually seen the sign come through my Facebook newsfeed: "Only two people have ever died for you: Jesus and the American soldier."
Wilson
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This thread reminds me of a heated and long-running debate in the student newspaper when I taught at the University Of Iowa (which had the National championship wrestling team for years under Coach Dan Gable. Some of the meets would have over 10,000 spectators show up).
Topic: Is college wresting a homosexual activity?
Both sides were incredulous that the other side could not see their clear and obvious viewpoint.
NO......of course it isn't, guys who participate in the sport have absolutely no sexual thoughts about their opponent!
YES.....of course it is, it is an activity where half naked guys are sweating and grappling and rolling around with each other on the mat!
That debate was never resolved and I suspect this one won't be either. I just hope both sides will always have their supreme allegiance be to Christ and His kingdom and at the same time love their country and make appropriate renderings unto Caesar.
BILL
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I grew up in Texas and never had to pledge to the Texas flag once. I did pledge to the Christina flag and scripture growing up though.
"Means we use must be as pure as the ends we seek."
Wilson,
Thank you! You perfectly and succinctly make my point. IF saying the pledge or singing the National Anthem is an act of worship, DON'T do it.
Just don't go around saying that those Christianswho do are synchretistic. That's all.
My feeble attempt at humor in coming up with a word I'd never heard (synchretaphobe) was just to say that it would be perceived as "more grace-full" if the folks opposed to patriotism would back away from labeling us who are not opposed to Christian patriotism. As I understand it, the main point of this thread is to define/label Christian patriots as synchratists. That, to me, and I suspect, for many others, is not a label we would see as a compliment! Ha! If the thread stays with that point, I'll feel comfortable standing firm on what I've said here. If the thread moves to the point of what you have suggested in your first paragraph in this post or even to "imho," I will be ever so grateful to say that I've made the points I want to make and feel free to let this thread go wherever.
Friend,
Wes
Ben,
I'm so happy to lend my personal generosity to your post! To you, being "willing to fight and kill for a flag, it is an act of worship." Bless you! I think most people respect a man who has an opinion!
On the other hand, the perception I have of your statement is that a true Christian "cannot be willing to fight and kill for a flag because it is an act of worship" and I disagree. Nothing personal, but such a line of logic would lead to "classic fundamentalism...you cannot be a Christian patriot. Everyone on this side of the line is in. Those on the other side of the line are out!"
So, I bless you in our disagreement. In a way that is what the United States of America is all about. The folks who were filling to fight and die and kill for the flag have created the "luxury" of multiple opinions of...everything!
Friend,
Wes
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Paul,
Sorry, just can't let you get away with this. The entire point of this thread is that patriotic Christians are synchretistic. That is a not a compliment! And, your further reference to "polluting" the Christian message muddies your logic further. I'd encourage you to simply give this line of reasoning up.
And, "yes" I would recognize a person who worships patriotism! They would pray and confess to the flag. Just haven't seen it. Let me know if you have. Names and testimonies would be appropriate!
Thanks for the explanation of "our."
Friend,
Wes
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Sorry Wes, can't let you get away with this. Idolarity is definitely NOT limited to things and stuff we pray to. Try again.
"No scripture can mean that God is not love, or that his mercy is not over all his works" (John Wesley - Free Grace, 26)Post Thanks / Like - 4 Thanks, 0 Laughing
Texas began requiring the pledge to the state flag in 2003. We lived there at the time and the schools couldnt find enough flags for all the classrooms so the newspapers printed.full page representations of the Texas flag that could be used unril cloth flags could be purchased. After rhe schools had the cloth flags there was some discussion about what the appropriate means of disposal should be, some teachers didnt feel comfortable discarding an object they aand their students had been pledging loyalty too over the course of several months and wondered if they should follow state flag protocols for disposing of worn flags, kind of the same delima some people have about what to do with unconsumed elements after communion servicee.
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Never have I said any such thing. In fact, I've been very clear quite to the contrary. But thank you for playing.Come again! lol. Sorry, I can't take you seriously when you're going to put words in my mouth which directly contradict that which I've been very clear to say in the past.
- Ben
Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death! And to those in the tombs, bestowing life!
Χριστὸς ἀνέστη ἐκ νεκρῶν, θανάτῳ θάνατον πατήσας! καὶ τοῖς ἐν τοῖς μνήμασι, ζωὴν χαρισάμενος!
Wes, The point of this thread is not that all forms of patriotism ARE instances of syncretism, but that for some it can and does rise to that level. I will reiterate that when our worship services center around the patriotic, when we adorn our sanctuaries with American flag bunting, flags, and other decorations, when the sermon is extolling the virtues of America and calls on the congregation to recite the pledge during the time reserved for the worship of God, when we do these things we are fusing the secular message of state worship with sacred worship of God.
Can one recite the pledge in another arena and it not be syncretistic? Yes. Unless the Christian message is being presented simultaneously it cannot be syncretism. It may be idolatry, but in those arenas who am I to say? I suspect that for many America is an idol, not for all, based on anecdotal observation, yet I cannot state for certain for any individual.
Oh I'm not going to name names. When this has happened in churches I was in, I voiced my opinion, heard the opinions of those in favour of the activities and teachings and moved on, agreed to disagree and remained friends.
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Can you recognize that it is God who has established the nations of this earth ("kingdoms of this world")? Paul says that God, "made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place" (Acts 17:26). Job says that God "makes nations great, and he destroys them; he enlarges nations, and leads them away" (Job 12:23).
The sense of what a "nation" meant in the Bible is not different in any substantial way from what we mean by a nation today. The existence of many independent nations should be considered a blessing from God. For one - it allows for the division of government power throughout the earth - thats a good thing. The Bible teaches Christians should not only obey, but honor civil rulers (1 Peter 2:17, Rom. 13). These commands follow a trajectory from the OT (Prov. 24:21, Jer. 29:4-7, etc).
The Bible clearly gives support to a kind of patriotism in which citizens love, support, and defend their own country ("kingdom"). You say you don't have a problem with "patriotism", but at the same time reject its components - sense of belonging to a particular nation, gratitude for the benefits it gives, shared pride in its achievements, a sense of security, a sense of obligation to serve and protect it (and to change any evil leadership), a sense of obligation to follow and transmit shared values and ideals that represent the best of a nation, etc. It appears you in fact do have a problem with patriotism.
Centuries of bloodshed on European soil has made at least this one very wary of patriottism.
And the Bible teaches that we should always obey God more than men, so it definitely qualifies Rom 13. As does Revelation 13. We believe in the plenary inspiration of the Scriptures, in other words, the whole.
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(See Bonhoefer) He was a patriotic citizen of Germany - his life exemplified biblical patriotism - love for country. By contrast, the opposite is an attitude of scorn or dislike for one's nation, accompanied by continual criticism. A healthy but limited criticism of the wrongs of a nation become exaggerated to the point where reality is distorted and a person becomes opposed to the good of the nation in general (see Ben Burch). Rather than sharing in gratitude for the benefits provided by the country and pride in the good things it has done, those opposed to patriotism will repeatedly emphasize any negative aspect of the country's actions, no matter how minor or ancient. Anti-patrioitic attitudes continually erode the ability of nations to function effectively and eventually undermine its very existence.
I have no problem naming what is good in my country, nor what is bad. They both exist. I've been known here to defend my country against ignorant folks who know little but make sweeping statements all the same. But I am not a patriot. Nor do I recognize myself in your description. One of things I really like of my country is that we do not have a pledge of allegiance.
"No scripture can mean that God is not love, or that his mercy is not over all his works" (John Wesley - Free Grace, 26)Post Thanks / Like - 3 Thanks, 0 Laughing
You're extremely far off-base about me, but thanks for playing.
- Ben
Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death! And to those in the tombs, bestowing life!
Χριστὸς ἀνέστη ἐκ νεκρῶν, θανάτῳ θάνατον πατήσας! καὶ τοῖς ἐν τοῖς μνήμασι, ζωὴν χαρισάμενος!
Benjamin,Never have I said any such thing. In fact, I've been very clear quite to the contrary. But thank you for playing.
I invite you to look at your post. You say you didn't say something that was a direct quotation from your post. Amazing. Is someone else posting under you name.
Originally Posted by Benjamin Burch
This assumes that we know what we're being suckered into. We often don't.
When we are willing to fight and kill for a flag, it is an act of worship. The pledge of allegiance and national anthem serve as liturgical devices to grow the sense of pride that would lead us to fight and kill for said flag.
So, all I did was post your personal quotation and say that I respected your opinion. It seems clear to me what your opinion is. I have no problem with it. I will not say you are anythiing but a devout, devoted follower of Jesus Christ with a different concept of what it means when a Christian is a patriot. That's all.
Your saying that Christians who are willing to fight and kill are demonstrating an act of worship, again, is your opinion and I respect it. I disagree, but I accept it.
If you have changed your mind about what you wrote, say it. But don't accuse me of putting words in your mouth when your exact quote appears in my post.
Friend,
Wes
Hans,
Thanks for not letting me get away with something! My impression was that I was being asked something directly related to Christian patriotism. In that case, it seems to me that two overt actions could be...praying and confessing to the flag. I've never seen anyone do such a thing. On the other hand, I have heard of Christians (not you) who accuse patriotic Christians of being syncretists. I'm reminded of the words of our Lord when he talked about the log and the slivver.
Friend,
Wes
I'm not Ben....
But I'm pretty sure he's objecting to your last line which draws (what you believe is) a logical conclusion from the first two quotes:
I don't think I saw Ben espousing that position.... instead, you've put words in his mouth. To you, it may seem like a logical step... but to me, it is a leap more closely resembling something said by Rush Limbaugh a week ago.Nothing personal, but such a line of logic would lead to "classic fundamentalism...you cannot be a Christian patriot. Everyone on this side of the line is in. Those on the other side of the line are out!"
Grace and Peace,
Jon Twitchell
Cape Elizabeth Church of the Nazarene | YourChurchWeb.net | YourChurchPianist.net | FuneralChaplain.com
I don't think being patriotic is syncretistic.Just don't go around saying that those Christians
I certainly think a Christian can be patriotic. (Have I mentioned on Naznet yet that I'll be celebrating the 4th of July in the National Mall in Washington D.C. this year!?!)
However, I do think it is syncretistic (or a similar malady) when one tries to USE THE CHURCH to promote, bolster, encourage, or practice patriotism. If you go to a Sunday morning worship service and are asked to say the pledge of allegiance to the American flag that is on display in the sanctuary, then sing Amazing Grace AND The Star Spangled Banner, it gives an implicit, but clear, message that being patriotic is part and parcel to being Christian. That my friend, is syncretism.
Wilson
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Wes,
Please don't be dishonest. It doesn't help the conversation. You didn't just say what you have above. You did not only post my opinion. You specifically said that I don't believe one can be a true Christian if they're a patriot. That is, I would draw lines and count them "out". You did, in fact, put words in my mouth.
So please don't lie to me.On the other hand, the perception I have of your statement is that a true Christian "cannot be willing to fight and kill for a flag because it is an act of worship" and I disagree. Nothing personal, but such a line of logic would lead to "classic fundamentalism...you cannot be a Christian patriot. Everyone on this side of the line is in. Those on the other side of the line are out!"
Therefore, with what you actually said on the table - that I don't believe one can be a true Christian if they're a patriot, and that if you are a patriot you're "out".... I will once again say you're flat wrong, and that I have clearly said quite the opposite.
Read This Post.
Many true Christians are tragically wrong about things. I assume I'm included.
- Ben
Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death! And to those in the tombs, bestowing life!
Χριστὸς ἀνέστη ἐκ νεκρῶν, θανάτῳ θάνατον πατήσας! καὶ τοῖς ἐν τοῖς μνήμασι, ζωὴν χαρισάμενος!
I have never seen this either. I think that this goes far beyond syncretism and is firmly planted in idolatry. If this were occurring in a church I was attending and preached from the pulpit I do believe that I would have to find another church.
You can be right or you can be in relationship
But that isn't what I said, as the OP.
The fact that you have chosen to only define worship in terms of things like prayer and confession merely shows how dissociative and pluralistic you are in approach to the idols of our society. It's common culture.
I really wish hans had just nuked my comment instead of starting a thread off of it. There's simply no point in trying to discuss things like this on Naznet.
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I'm not so sure about that. This thread is a spin off of one that was on how should we behave when confronting perceived bad teaching (a reference to a certain group who attacks the CotN and their methods this group employs.) No one in this discussion is breaking off fellowship with those with whom they disagree, even when it is vehement disagreement concerning what is perceived to be a rather unacceptable form of teaching. Neither side of this is calling the other heretic, false teacher because none of the teaching rises to the place of negating any of the essentials of the faith. While there have been heated moments and there well may be more to come I get the feeling that we all still consider the other brothers and sisters in Christ. So we are demonstrating that disagreement can occur without breaking fellowship. So while there is no hope of one side winning the other to their point of view this thread, and others not too dissimilar, e.g., homosexuality, do show that after heated argument we are not kicking anyone out of the kingdom, that that isn't necessary or called for.
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Ben,
Yikes! I was just getting rather used to being a syncretist. Now I'm dishonest and a liar! Thinking I may have to appeal to Rome!!!
Whew. There's nothing you can say that will make me quit loving you, but my gracious, it just seems to me that you are being a bit edgy here.
What I said was (same as you included in your post), "On the other hand, the perception I have of your statement is that a true Christian "cannot be willing to fight and kill for a flag because it is an act of worship" and I disagree. Nothing personal, but such a line of logic would lead to "classic fundamentalism...you cannot be a Christian patriot. Everyone on this side of the line is in. Those on the other side of the line are out!"
My logic is that if you say that a true Christian cannot be willing to fight and kill for a flag because it is an act of worship, that patriotic Christians would be worshipping someone besides God. How does that not folllow what you said? I would be more than happy to see it a different way, change my perception!
Key words, in case you missed them, "the perception I have of your statement. If what you said is not what you meant, would you consider restating what you said?
Again, where did "dishonest" and "liar" come from? Yikes!
Friend,
Wes
Wilson,
Okay, I'm coming to the point where I don't think I have anything more to say about this issue. Maybe this is a good time to say "And in closing!," while at the same time reserving to make another point or two if I feel so inspired.
I'm happy for you to feel that it is syncretic to mix patriotism into a Christian worship service. Every year of my ministry we have honored our veterans. We have had times when we sang, "God Bless America" and said the pledge to the Christian flag, the Bible and the American flag. In all my years of ministry I only had one person comment anything negative to me about the piece of the service where we gave God thanks for our verterans and for our country. My definition of syncretism does not include a love of vets and a love of country. But, I am wide open for others to believe the way they do about us syncretists!
Friend,
Wes
Jon,
Nicely said. Of course, I do not agree, but strong, pleasant dialogue is a joy!
Friend,
Wes
Like many things, it is often hard to tell when you have gone too far with something. But if we ask God and prayerfully consider we may find the tent is larger than we think.
Two years ago we changed buildings and it was a great time to rethink what was present in the church. Up front is a cross on the wall with a small table holding the offering plates located under it, an acrylic pulpit behind a communion table. And maybe some candles(seasonal) To the sides is a keyboard and piano and a media screen plus two altars of wood for prayer. As you turn to leave is a table with various Christian symbols, praying hands, Symbolic chalice and bread(not communion but a static display), prayer candles, a Bible, and a lighted picture of Christ on the cross with John and Mary at his feet. Missing is anything representing the nation state or culture.
In my kids school are the symbols of the nation, state and city. They recite what they are taught to recite. It is part of being in a public school.
When at an event anywhere I respectfully stand, sit or kneel(when in church) during recitations, etc. If I am inclined to recite whatever is being recited, I feel free to do so but not obligated to refuse or to participate(freedom in Christ). I will sing the national anthem when it is sung because I happen to like it. I teach my kids love for God and neighbor and how to use your freedom in Christ for good not evil. Beyond that nothing else really matters now does it?
I am a loyal American citizen and will not violate her laws unless they conflict with God's higher laws of love, which doesn't happen too much. My allegiance is to Christ and the mission of the Church universal, my obligations are to my immediate family and chosen extended church family to help and protect them. Beyond that, I have to follow the two laws of love. My legal responsibilites to my country are to pay my taxes, obey its nonconflicting laws and as far as it depends on me, live at peace with everyone, American and beyond.
On a side note my neighbor flies the Christian flag, but not the American flag while another neigbor flies a variety of America flags down through history. To each his own, they are God's servant and to Him they stand or fall.
The only time we need to worry about patriotic syncretism is when we are going off the road of love(the highway of holiness) and into the ditch of state dependency, or blind obedience and support.
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I wouldn't call you a liar. I'd say you said something dishonest, to which I asked you to please not lie to me. I consider a liar to be someone who habitually lies. I certainly said no such thing about you. Nor would I.
Nor is there anything you could say that would make me quit loving you.Whew. There's nothing you can say that will make me quit loving you, but my gracious, it just seems to me that you are being a bit edgy here.
You're being very evasive, and thus my charge of dishonesty still stands. You might just be so confused, maybe I can help. Here is what actually happened...What I said was (same as you included in your post), "On the other hand, the perception I have of your statement is that a true Christian "cannot be willing to fight and kill for a flag because it is an act of worship" and I disagree. Nothing personal, but such a line of logic would lead to "classic fundamentalism...you cannot be a Christian patriot. Everyone on this side of the line is in. Those on the other side of the line are out!"
You started by saying these things:
At which point, I never said anything about lying or dishonesty. Soo... your entire response here about "your perception" is completely besides the point. I never said you "lied" or were "dishonest" about your perception. Instead, I said your perception was absolutely wrong because I've said exactly the opposite of what you perceive.
At which point, you claimed:
You say you didn't say something that was a direct quotation from your post. Amazing. Is someone else posting under you name.However,So, all I did was post your personal quotation and say that I respected your opinion.
1) I didn't say what you claimed I was saying - because it was your perception, not what I said.
2) Posting my personal quotation is not "all [you] did". You did more, you interpreted it based upon "your logic".
Therefore, what you said was completely untrue, and therefore I called it dishonest. Get upset with me if you like, it is what it is. Now you've tried to evade the fact that this is how it actually played out. Like I said, maybe you simply confused yourself and didn't follow our conversation well, but this was the sequence of events and statements and I stand by my petition for you to be honest, due to the fact that what you said at first "all I did was quote you" was not true at all - because you did more than quote me - which you have since already admitted to.
Now, with that out of the way...
I never said anything about "true Christian." Look back at what I said. Likewise, this isn't all you said. You specifically said that I'd be drawing lines and having some be "in" and some be "out" because they are not "true Christians."My logic is that if you say that a true Christian cannot be willing to fight and kill for a flag because it is an act of worship, that patriotic Christians would be worshipping someone besides God. How does that not folllow what you said? I would be more than happy to see it a different way, change my perception!
This doesn't follow, and you've yet to show how it would follow, because somehow you've once again conveniently left that out of this question above.
What I've said is very clear. It is against the call of Christ to fight and kill, specifically for a flag which has nothing to do with God whatsoever. As such, the Pledge and the Anthem exist as liturgical devices which draw us into a place where we are willing to go against the call of Christ and - worse yet - come up with crazy ways to justify somehow saying it isn't actually against the call of Christ!!Key words, in case you missed them, "the perception I have of your statement. If what you said is not what you meant, would you consider restating what you said?
If that isn't syncretism, I'm not sure what is. These practices - as liturgical practices of the state - call us to identify with the state over against the Church, and be willing to fight wars against other Christians for things we deem right/necessary - such as the Civil War and Revolutionary War, specifically the Civil War.
The Civil War was an instance of Christian killing Christian so as to preserve one of two things:
1) The Union: The nation, the flag
2) The Confederation: Freedoms
This is the direct result of the call to arms given by the Pledge and the Anthem.
I have said nothing here of "in", "out", or "true Christians."
- Ben
Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death! And to those in the tombs, bestowing life!
Χριστὸς ἀνέστη ἐκ νεκρῶν, θανάτῳ θάνατον πατήσας! καὶ τοῖς ἐν τοῖς μνήμασι, ζωὴν χαρισάμενος!
Sort of like... I dunno....
The Revolutionary War
The War of 1812
The Civil War
The Atomic Bombs of WWII
Vietnam
Korea
Gulf War
Iraq
Afghanistan
Just to name a few.
- Ben
Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death! And to those in the tombs, bestowing life!
Χριστὸς ἀνέστη ἐκ νεκρῶν, θανάτῳ θάνατον πατήσας! καὶ τοῖς ἐν τοῖς μνήμασι, ζωὴν χαρισάμενος!
In every war except the ones since vietnam soldiers have been drafted by law. Even today you are registered with selctive service or you are violating the law of this nation. Being an objector is acceptaable in this country and I am glad for it. There are many ways you can serve God by loving others through service to this nation in time of war, distress and disaster without taking up arms against our fellowmen.
BUT: If a fellow CHRISTIAN wants to serve this country or any country, he is not your servant but Gods. Pray for him, encourage him to find a way to serve without violating the two laws of love but in the end, like people who cannot see the right from the wrong in many areas or/and what is best in obeying the laws of love on many other issues, do you rebuke them as idolators who abuse substances, are sexaully immoral, participate in violent media, video games about magic and pagan practices, spend money on pleasure, entertainment and fancy clothing and a whole host of other things that could be considered a form of idolatry or syncretism? I think not.
Christians do lots of things that are not beneficial(loving) to family, friends, neighbor or mankind in general. You do it, I do it, they do it. I guess that is why we are told we are all saved by grace and not works.
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Allow me to agree for the most part with everything you've said here and to thank you for this post, Dale.
- Ben
Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death! And to those in the tombs, bestowing life!
Χριστὸς ἀνέστη ἐκ νεκρῶν, θανάτῳ θάνατον πατήσας! καὶ τοῖς ἐν τοῖς μνήμασι, ζωὴν χαρισάμενος!
A 15 yr. OLD SCHOOL KID
New Pledge of Allegiance (TOTALLY AWESOME)!
Since the Pledge of Allegiance
And
The Lord's Prayer
Are not allowed in most
Public schools anymore
Because the word 'God' is mentioned.....
A kid in Arizona wrote the attached
NEW School prayer:
Now I sit me down in school
Where praying is against the rule
For this great nation under God
Finds mention of Him very odd.
If scripture now the class recites,
It violates the Bill of Rights.
And anytime my head I bow
Becomes a Federal matter now.
Our hair can be purple, orange or green,
That's no offense; it's a freedom scene..
The law is specific, the law is precise.
Prayers spoken aloud are a serious vice.
For praying in a public hall
Might offend someone with no faith at all..
In silence alone we must meditate,
God's name is prohibited by the state.
We're allowed to cuss and dress like freaks,
And pierce our noses, tongues and cheeks...
They've outlawed guns, but FIRST the Bible.
To quote the Good Book makes me liable.
We can elect a pregnant Senior Queen,
And the 'unwed daddy,' our Senior King.
It's 'inappropriate' to teach right from wrong,
We're taught that such 'judgments' do not belong..
We can get our condoms and birth controls,
Study witchcraft, vampires and totem poles..
But the Ten Commandments are not allowed,
No word of God must reach this crowd.
It's scary here I must confess,
When chaos reigns the school's a mess.
So, Lord, this silent plea I make:
Should I be shot; My soul please take!
Amen
May I always be the kind of person my dog thinks I amPost Thanks / Like - 1 Thanks, 0 Laughing
The Pledge is, in fact, allowed, and often required. They may leave out an additional line added in the 60s....Since the Pledge of Allegiance
And
The Lord's Prayer
Are not allowed in most
Public schools anymore
Because the word 'God' is mentioned.....
A kid in Arizona wrote the attached
This is not true. Praying is completely allowed in school, just not publicly at public school functions.Now I sit me down in school
Where praying is against the rule
And yet our President mentions God often.For this great nation under God
Finds mention of Him very odd.
Depends on how they are reciting it. Would you like the same freedom to recite the Qa'arn?If scripture now the class recites,
It violates the Bill of Rights.
Not the slightest hint of truth here. This is a lie.And anytime my head I bow
Becomes a Federal matter now.
What's the point? Why would this matter to anything?Our hair can be purple, orange or green,
That's no offense; it's a freedom scene..
Again, depends on the setting. You can pray aloud at lunch or in the halls between classes all you like. You cannot disrupt class by praying aloud when class is in session. You also can't talk to your friend aloud while class is in session.The law is specific, the law is precise.
Prayers spoken aloud are a serious vice.
See above. None of this is true. This is a lie.For praying in a public hall
Might offend someone with no faith at all..
In silence alone we must meditate,
God's name is prohibited by the state.
Not in any high school I have ever heard of.We're allowed to cuss
Yup. Again, what does this have to do with anything?and dress like freaks,
And pierce our noses, tongues and cheeks...
When were guns ever aloud for high school students? Seems this isn't about faith at all... simply politics.They've outlawed guns,
You are allowed to read your Bible all you like during lunch, study hall, and recess. Class time is for class.but FIRST the Bible.
Liable for what?To quote the Good Book makes me liable.
Considering students vote, shouldn't that be their prerogative?We can elect a pregnant Senior Queen,
And the 'unwed daddy,' our Senior King.
What of personal responsibility? Parents should be teaching right and wrong. I don't want school teachers teaching my kids right and wrong. Ever.It's 'inappropriate' to teach right from wrong,
We're taught that such 'judgments' do not belong..
A couple of things:We can get our condoms and birth controls,
1) If my kid is getting birth control without talking to me, and I don't know s/he is having sex... I will be sad as a father, and disappointed in myself.
2) If my kid is getting birth control without talking to me, I will thank my child's school that s/he doesn't have a kid to worry about, nor STD's.
In what context? Substantiation is always a good thing.Study witchcraft, vampires and totem poles..
Again, in what context? Do we really expect our teachers to teach our kids the Word of God? I hope not!!! That is my greatest fear... someone of a different Christian persuasion teaching my child about the Bible without me there. Absolutely not. Stick to science, math, and history, please!But the Ten Commandments are not allowed,
No word of God must reach this crowd.
I think that we can do better as Christians than posting this sort of junk. Sorry if I offend anyone, but a horse is a horse. This prayer is junk, and largely dishonest/untrue.
- Ben
Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death! And to those in the tombs, bestowing life!
Χριστὸς ἀνέστη ἐκ νεκρῶν, θανάτῳ θάνατον πατήσας! καὶ τοῖς ἐν τοῖς μνήμασι, ζωὴν χαρισάμενος!Post Thanks / Like - 5 Thanks, 0 Laughing
Now tell me you didn't know. But I won't believe you.
This topic inevitable leads to building huge straw man arguments and high emotions.
"No scripture can mean that God is not love, or that his mercy is not over all his works" (John Wesley - Free Grace, 26)Post Thanks / Like - 1 Thanks, 0 Laughing
Ben,
So happy for you to have your opinion. It doesn't change my perception. And, that's the truth.
Nor does your post/opinion change my perception about your overall declaration of Christian patriotism being syncretism. God bless you for having such strong opinions. Seriously. "It is against the call of Christ to fight and kill, specifically for a flag which has nothing to do with God whatsoever. As such, the Pledge and the Anthem exist as liturgical devices which draw us into a place where we are willing to go against the call of Christ and - worse yet - come up with crazy ways to justify somehow saying it isn't actually against the call of Christ!!
If that isn't syncretism, I'm not sure what is." You believe that so strongly and I'm just saying...go for it.
However (what a great word!) It is my perception that you are wrong and your deeply held and clearly stated belief cannot lead to any other conclusion except fundamentalism, which means that people are excluded from Christianity because they have an alternative belief (going against the call of Christ!) from the fundamentalist/s.
Speaking as an outsider to your exclusivity, I maintain my "perception" along with my healthy perception of my integrity!
And, I might add, again, that I do not have much emotion wrapped up in this thread. It seems somewhat strange to throw such strong words around without much personal emotion. The truth is, I entered participation in this thread with no thought of changing any minds...just the hope of helping Christian patriots feel better about their position. Further participation in this discussion would just lead to more constirnation. So, over and out.
Friend,
Wes
Well, there goes all the time and effort put into this discussion. Just floating down the drains.
A free advice: don't react after your initial statement and give people the perception you're actually discussing an issue. I can very well understand how people would misunderstand your true intentions.
But, I absolutely appreciate your honesty. I think many people only post to make the opponents of a view that is expressed feel better about their opinion. Has nothing to do with the purpose of NazNet, but honesty is always a gain.
"No scripture can mean that God is not love, or that his mercy is not over all his works" (John Wesley - Free Grace, 26)
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