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Thread: Syncretism and patriotism

  1. #241
    Senior Member Jim Chabot's Avatar

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    Re: Syncretism and patriotism

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul DeBaufer View Post
    George, Jim, John Wesley, and others who believe that images of Jesus are wrong,

    When you come to visit my house I will put such images away, if I had any. I would not want to offend you. I believe that we have freedom in this. Hans line of reasoning resonates with me, but far be it from me to allow the freedom I see to be an offense to you when you are my guest.
    Your misunderstanding is complete in my case Paul. Of course you have freedom, and of course I wouldn't be offended one bit. Read through my posts here, you will find that I have been saying this all along.

    Take a look back to where I said that I find transubstantiation to be idolatrous. You will find that I have also mentioned that I have good friends and relatives who are Catholic "religious.". You will find that I have mentioned that a young man whom I consider my son in the faith is devoutly Catholic and you will find that I occasionally attend mass and have sang at mass as well. And you will see over and over again where folks here just can't reconcile this.

    It's not so hard you know. When you love folks and disagree with them at the same time. What's the big problem? People are important and ideas are piddling little details by comparison. Though we may not believe alike, may we not love alike?

    Hey let's say that your church is chock full of icons as well. No big deal, I'll be glad to visit there as well, no problem.

    But I probably won't be joining this sort of a church, nor become a regular attender. But good grief, nobody needs to take down the stations of the cross, just don't bring them to my church when you visit me. I'm guessing that you would have no issue with visiting with those of us who shy away from overt expressions of religiosity, and I'm guessing that you wouldn't be offended by our worship.

    So why would you think that we would be offended? Honestly I don't get it.
    -Jim

    To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.

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  2. #242
    Senior Member Paul DeBaufer's Avatar

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    Re: Syncretism and patriotism

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Chabot View Post
    Your misunderstanding is complete in my case Paul. Of course you have freedom, and of course I wouldn't be offended one bit. Read through my posts here, you will find that I have been saying this all along.

    Take a look back to where I said that I find transubstantiation to be idolatrous. You will find that I have also mentioned that I have good friends and relatives who are Catholic "religious.". You will find that I have mentioned that a young man whom I consider my son in the faith is devoutly Catholic and you will find that I occasionally attend mass and have sang at mass as well. And you will see over and over again where folks here just can't reconcile this.

    It's not so hard you know. When you love folks and disagree with them at the same time. What's the big problem? People are important and ideas are piddling little details by comparison. Though we may not believe alike, may we not love alike?

    Hey let's say that your church is chock full of icons as well. No big deal, I'll be glad to visit there as well, no problem.

    But I probably won't be joining this sort of a church, nor become a regular attender. But good grief, nobody needs to take down the stations of the cross, just don't bring them to my church when you visit me. I'm guessing that you would have no issue with visiting with those of us who shy away from overt expressions of religiosity, and I'm guessing that you wouldn't be offended by our worship.

    So why would you think that we would be offended? Honestly I don't get it.
    Exactly. My apologies if I offended you (removed you from the previous post). Because people and relationship ARE more important than ideas. I recently met the local Catholic priest, an Irish guy (left the priesthood but was asked to come back and he did because he loves helping people develop a relationship with Christ) and he said something to the effect that if truths get in the way of love, they probably weren't truths at all. My marriage counselor was fond of saying, "Do you want to be right or in a relationship."
    You can be right or you can be in relationship
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  3. #243
    Site Coordinator Hans Deventer's Avatar

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    Re: Syncretism and patriotism

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul DeBaufer View Post
    he said something to the effect that if truths get in the way of love, they probably weren't truths at all. My marriage counselor was fond of saying, "Do you want to be right or in a relationship."
    Thank you. If only that would be NazNet's motto. I guess it is good to have dreams.
    "No scripture can mean that God is not love, or that his mercy is not over all his works" (John Wesley - Free Grace, 26)
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  4. #244
    Senior Member Jim Chabot's Avatar

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    Re: Syncretism and patriotism

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul DeBaufer View Post
    Exactly. My apologies if I offended you (removed you from the previous post). Because people and relationship ARE more important than ideas. I recently met the local Catholic priest, an Irish guy (left the priesthood but was asked to come back and he did because he loves helping people develop a relationship with Christ) and he said something to the effect that if truths get in the way of love, they probably weren't truths at all. My marriage counselor was fond of saying, "Do you want to be right or in a relationship."
    But that's part of it Paul. You didn't offend me one bit, in fact I was glad to have been given the opportunity to explain.

    I'd like to hear where George comes in on this. While I can't gauge where George stands regarding others possession of images. I can tell you that time and again George has offered his hand in friendship to those who strongly disagree with him. He speaks often of sitting down with most anyone to converse over Doritos and Dr. Pepper.

    So, maybe be prepared to either remove George's name as well or put mine back. As to JW,, I can't answer that question as I'm not entirely confident that he was an easy going, loving kind of a guy. While I affirm a lot of his theology and I enjoy reading him, I am pretty much disappointed in the attitudes that he expressed toward others. Perhaps I don't fully understand his language and culture, but I'm guessing that I wouldn't want to associate with him, especially considering the way he treated his wife.
    -Jim

    To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.

    Garrison Keillor
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  5. #245
    Senior Member Kyle Borger's Avatar

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    Re: Syncretism and patriotism

    Irresistible Grace - God chooses you and you have no choice but to follow Jesus. Those who are not following Jesus are damned by God. We have no choice in the matter. This is positional authority. God tells us what to do and we have no choice.

    Government run by religion - You must worship and honor the God or idea of choice or you will be punished.

    Prevenient Grace - Jesus is calling us even before we have accepted Him, but does not force Himself upon us. We are all called, but we are allowed the choice to deny Him.

    Government based on Christian principles - Choice to believe or not believe must be allowed. That means all beliefs and non-beliefs must be allowed to exist. In fact if one belief imposes upon or restricts the beliefs of another that can't be allowed. Therefore the Government can't say that God exists because that imposes upon those who believe that He doesn't. Because of this choice no government can truly follow Jesus without violating Christian principles.

    I do not believe that Jesus is interested in Nations. We see our largest growth in Christian community in those nations where Jesus is not accepted.

    If you do your research you will find that the majority in the US are not actual followers of Christ. There may still be a majority that like the idea of Christ but when you get down to the nitty gritty you will find that the evidence of their belief does not exist.

    In fact the desire to create a utopia or land where we are free from the sins of others simply isolates us and prevents us from carrying out our mission to create disciples of Christ. We are not to be of this world, don't do what they do, but Jesus did not tell us to go hide either.

    Therefore, a Christian nation would have to be one that produces disciples of Christ while allowing others to deny Christ if they choose. If such a nation was successful it would eventually not be a Christian nation because they would no longer have anyone other than their children to go and make disciples of and would no longer be carrying out the mission of Christ unless they went into other nations and attempted to convert them into a Christian nation as well.

    Seems like we have been trying to do that for quite a while. Just how successful have we been by trying to create Christians through laws and cultural expectations? The body of Christ is not of one nation, but is in all nations.
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  6. #246
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    Re: Syncretism and patriotism

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyle Borger View Post
    Irresistible Grace - God chooses you and you have no choice but to follow Jesus. Those who are not following Jesus are damned by God. We have no choice in the matter. This is positional authority. God tells us what to do and we have no choice.
    I'm sorry but your understanding of irresistible grace is a poor caricature. The historical meaning of irresistible grace has never excluded our voluntary/willing decisions. This is very elementary.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyle Borger View Post
    Government run by religion - You must worship and honor the God or idea of choice or you will be punished.
    Sharia law, Communist law, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyle Borger View Post
    Prevenient Grace - Jesus is calling us even before we have accepted Him, but does not force Himself upon us. We are all called, but we are allowed the choice to deny Him.
    The part in bold has nothing to do with "prevenient grace".

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyle Borger View Post
    Government based on Christian principles - Choice to believe or not believe must be allowed. That means all beliefs and non-beliefs must be allowed to exist. In fact if one belief imposes upon or restricts the beliefs of another that can't be allowed. Therefore the Government can't say that God exists because that imposes upon those who believe that He doesn't. Because of this choice no government can truly follow Jesus without violating Christian principles.
    I'm very confused by your logic.

    1) A government based on Christian principles will allow freedom of choice.
    2) Therefore, the government cannot say God exists.
    3) Therefore, the government cannot follow Jesus without violating Christian principles.

    You're guilty of not 1, but 2, non sequitar logical fallacies:
    1) Why does a government based on "Christian principles" have to say whether "God exists", or not.
    2) What does a government based on "Christian principles" have to do with a "government following Jesus"?
    You're mixing different concepts. Your conclusions don't follow your premises.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyle Borger View Post
    I do not believe that Jesus is interested in Nations. We see our largest growth in Christian community in those nations where Jesus is not accepted.
    Again, your conclusion does not follow your premise. What is the correlation between these two statements? I'm really confused.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyle Borger View Post
    If you do your research you will find that the majority in the US are not actual followers of Christ. There may still be a majority that like the idea of Christ but when you get down to the nitty gritty you will find that the evidence of their belief does not exist.
    okay

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyle Borger View Post
    In fact the desire to create a utopia or land where we are free from the sins of others simply isolates us and prevents us from carrying out our mission to create disciples of Christ. We are not to be of this world, don't do what they do, but Jesus did not tell us to go hide either.
    Again, really confused by what you're trying to say, here. Who is trying to create a "utopia or land where we are free from the sins of others"? And how/why does this "prevent us from carrying out our mission to create disciples of Christ"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyle Borger View Post
    Therefore, a Christian nation would have to be one that produces disciples of Christ while allowing others to deny Christ if they choose.
    Please be aware that this is your personal definition of what it means to be "a Christian nation"? (See post #225 in this thread). Your definition accurately reflects the United States of America.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyle Borger View Post
    If such a nation was successful it would eventually not be a Christian nation because they would no longer have anyone other than their children to go and make disciples of and would no longer be carrying out the mission of Christ unless they went into other nations and attempted to convert them into a Christian nation as well.
    What ???? How does this follow? I'm speechless.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyle Borger View Post
    Seems like we have been trying to do that for quite a while. Just how successful have we been by trying to create Christians through laws and cultural expectations? The body of Christ is not of one nation, but is in all nations.
    I don't know of a single person who thinks they can "create Christians through laws and cultural expectations"? I think you've created a boogeyman, here. And of course "the body of Christ is not of one nation" - who believes that?

  7. #247
    Site Coordinator Hans Deventer's Avatar

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    Re: Syncretism and patriotism

    Quote Originally Posted by Marcus Kibbe View Post
    I'm sorry but your understanding of irresistible grace is a poor caricature. The historical meaning of irresistible grace has never excluded our voluntary/willing decisions. This is very elementary.
    Actually, Kyle is spot on.

    If something is clearly documented in historical theology, it is the famous controversy on the Five Points of Calvinism. This is indeed very elementary. We agree at that point.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irresistible_grace
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    Re: Syncretism and patriotism

    Quote Originally Posted by Hans Deventer View Post
    Actually, Kyle is spot on.

    If something is clearly documented in historical theology, it is the famous controversy on the Five Points of Calvinism. This is indeed very elementary. We agree at that point.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irresistible_grace
    The doctrine of irresistible grace has never denied voluntary/willing choice. To say otherwise is simply a wrong idea and wrong understanding. Look at Calvin's quote in the wiki link you included:
    "it is not violent, so as to compel men by external force; but still it is a powerful impulse of the Holy Spirit, which makes men willing who formerly were unwilling and reluctant," - Calvin

  9. #249
    Site Coordinator Hans Deventer's Avatar

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    Re: Syncretism and patriotism

    Quote Originally Posted by Marcus Kibbe View Post
    The doctrine of irresistible grace has never denied voluntary/willing choice. To say otherwise is simply a wrong idea and wrong understanding. Look at Calvin's quote in the wiki link you included:
    Makes men willing ....... I rest my case.
    "No scripture can mean that God is not love, or that his mercy is not over all his works" (John Wesley - Free Grace, 26)
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  10. #250
    Senior Member Ryan Pugh's Avatar

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    Re: Syncretism and patriotism

    Quote Originally Posted by Marcus Kibbe View Post
    The doctrine of irresistible grace has never denied voluntary/willing choice.
    What part of IRRESISTIBLE involves choice? If something is irresistible, I have no choice to resist...
    Most good things have been said far too many times and just need to be lived. - Shane Claiborne
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  11. #251
    Senior Member Benjamin Burch's Avatar

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    Re: Syncretism and patriotism

    Quote Originally Posted by Marcus Kibbe View Post
    The doctrine of irresistible grace has never denied voluntary/willing choice. To say otherwise is simply a wrong idea and wrong understanding. Look at Calvin's quote in the wiki link you included:
    So... Monergism involves the will of a second party?

    I find it ironic that you played the part of logic professor in your response to Kyle yet you are trying to pass off Irresistible and Monergism as two-party phrases.
    - Ben

    Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death! And to those in the tombs, bestowing life!
    Χριστὸς ἀνέστη ἐκ νεκρῶν, θανάτῳ θάνατον πατήσας! καὶ τοῖς ἐν τοῖς μνήμασι, ζωὴν χαρισάμενος!
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  12. #252
    Senior Member Paul DeBaufer's Avatar

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    Re: Syncretism and patriotism

    Quote Originally Posted by The Canons of Dordrecht
    Article 7: Election

    Election [or choosing] is God’s unchangeable purpose by which he did the following:

    Before the foundation of the world, by sheer grace, according to the free good pleasure of his will, he chose in Christ to salvation a definite number of particular people out of the entire human race, which had fallen by its own fault from its original innocence into sin and ruin. Those chosen were neither better nor more deserving than the others, but lay with them in the common misery. He did this in Christ, whom he also appointed from eternity to be the mediator, the head of all those chosen, and the foundation of their salvation. And so he decided to give the chosen ones to Christ to be saved, and to call and draw them effectively into Christ’s fellowship through his Word and Spirit. In other words, he decided to grant them true faith in Christ, to justify them, to sanctify them, and finally, after powerfully preserving them in the fellowship of his Son, to glorify them.

    God did all this in order to demonstrate his mercy, to the praise of the riches of his glorious grace.

    As Scripture says, God chose us in Christ, before the foundation of the world, so that we should be holy and blameless before him with love; he predestined us whom he adopted as his children through Jesus Christ, in himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, by which he freely made us pleasing to himself in his beloved (Eph. 1:4-6). And elsewhere, Those whom he predestined, he also called; and those whom he called, he also justified; and those whom he justified, he also glorified (Rom. 8:30).

    Article 11: Election Unchangeable

    Just as God himself is most wise, unchangeable, all-knowing, and almighty, so the election made by him can neither be suspended nor altered, revoked, or annulled; neither can his chosen ones be cast off, nor their number reduced.
    Sure seems as though the Reformed Church has certainly taken irresistible grace to mean just that. God chose, you have no choice. This may not have been what John Calvin intended, but it is where the doctrine that carries his name did go.
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    Site Coordinator Hans Deventer's Avatar

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    Re: Syncretism and patriotism

    Marcus, let's not waste energy on this. This is a Nazarene friendly forum. Which means, we follow Arminian/Wesleyan theology. From our point of view, this is a no brainer. And logically it is exactly the same. Just apologize, and let's get over it.
    "No scripture can mean that God is not love, or that his mercy is not over all his works" (John Wesley - Free Grace, 26)

  14. #254
    Senior Member Paul DeBaufer's Avatar

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    Re: Syncretism and patriotism

    Originally Posted by Kyle Borger
    Prevenient Grace - Jesus is calling us even before we have accepted Him, but does not force Himself upon us. We are all called, but we are allowed the choice to deny Him.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marcus Kibbe
    The part in bold has nothing to do with "prevenient grace".
    Seems that Kyle has actually hit prevenient grace on the head, which is God opening us up to be able to either chose or reject Him. We cannot choose him without it, yet we are free to reject Him. Could you be confusing prevenient grace for irresistible grace?
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    Re: Syncretism and patriotism

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Pugh View Post
    What part of IRRESISTIBLE involves choice? If something is irresistible, I have no choice to resist...
    Quote Originally Posted by Benjamin Burch View Post
    So... Monergism involves the will of a second party?

    I find it ironic that you played the part of logic professor in your response to Kyle yet you are trying to pass off Irresistible and Monergism as two-party phrases.
    It's not surprising that you both understand the term "irresistible" to mean God takes sinners into heaven kicking and screaming - the notion of a person being forced to perform some duty that he cannot freely refuse. This of course is built upon the premise that man has the ability to equally choose between spiritual good and spiritual bad..

    This premise completely ignores the fact that our "free-will/voluntary" choices are determined by our preferences (our spiritual tastes).

    For example, I prefer watching and playing basketball moreso than baseball - always have. Maybe it was my environment that predisposed me to having this preference or maybe its something else, but regardless, I prefer the sport of basketball over baseball, and this, I assmue, will never change. I never consciously decided one day that this would be my preference, nor did anyone force me against my "will" to prefer basketball over baseball.

    Is this preference "irresistible"? YES
    Am I able to resist this "preference"? NO
    Was this my "free-will/voluntary" choice? YES
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  16. #256
    Senior Member Paul DeBaufer's Avatar

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    Re: Syncretism and patriotism

    Quote Originally Posted by Marcus Kibbe View Post
    It's not surprising that you both understand the term "irresistible" to mean God takes sinners into heaven kicking and screaming - the notion of a person being forced to perform some duty that he cannot freely refuse. This of course is built upon the premise that man has the ability to equally choose between spiritual good and spiritual bad.

    This premise completely ignores the fact that our "free-will/voluntary choices" are determined by our preferences (our spiritual tastes).

    For example, I have always preferred watching and playing basketball moreso than baseball - always have. Maybe it was my environment that predisposed me to having this preference or maybe its something else, but regardless, I prefer the sport of basketball over baseball, and this, I assmue, will never change. I never consciously decided one day that this would be my preference, nor did anyone force me against my "will" to prefer basketball over baseball. Is thispreference "irresistible"? YES Am I able to resist this "preference"? NO Therefore it is IRRESISTIBLE.
    I don't think that they are saying that at all, getting to Heaven even if they don't want to go. What we are saying is that the doctrine of irresistible grace negates the choice, it predisposes us to like basketball over baseball without giving us the opportunity to choose baseball. We are not dragged kicking and screaming to basketball games preferring baseball, we cannot prefer baseball. We never had the choice.

    I do believe that the Canons of Dort support this. There is no choice. God foreordained that you will be saved, therefore your heart at some point WILL soften to Him and lean toward His will, because God did it, not because you are making any choice to do so.
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    Senior Member Ryan Pugh's Avatar

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    Re: Syncretism and patriotism

    I'm trying to figure out why we are actually arguing about Calvinistic doctrine here. So I'll do my part and stop replying. There are better things to do.
    Most good things have been said far too many times and just need to be lived. - Shane Claiborne
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  18. #258
    Senior Member Jim Chabot's Avatar

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    Re: Syncretism and patriotism

    Quote Originally Posted by Marcus Kibbe View Post
    It's not surprising that you both understand the term "irresistible" to mean God takes sinners into heaven kicking and screaming - the notion of a person being forced to perform some duty that he cannot freely refuse. This of course is built upon the premise that man has the ability to equally choose between spiritual good and spiritual bad..

    This premise completely ignores the fact that our "free-will/voluntary" choices are determined by our preferences (our spiritual tastes).

    For example, I prefer watching and playing basketball moreso than baseball - always have. Maybe it was my environment that predisposed me to having this preference or maybe its something else, but regardless, I prefer the sport of basketball over baseball, and this, I assmue, will never change. I never consciously decided one day that this would be my preference, nor did anyone force me against my "will" to prefer basketball over baseball. Is this preference "irresistible"? YES Am I able to resist this "preference"? NO
    Very good explanation! But I have to wonder if we would be better off staying away from discussions on Calvinism. I do understand that you felt a need to correct an inaccurate portrayal. Yet still, passions are inflamed. There are folks here who despise Calvinism beyond the point of reasonable discourse. And since we aren't Calvinists, maybe it's better to let sleeping dogs lie?

    From past discussions here, I've found that the in depth soul searching quest to define "choice" becomes an ever confusing circular argument sure to raise hackles and grow fangs. While Sleeping dogs are a pleasant sight to behold.
    -Jim

    To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.

    Garrison Keillor

  19. #259
    Senior Member Jim Chabot's Avatar

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    Re: Syncretism and patriotism

    Quote Originally Posted by Hans Deventer View Post
    Marcus, let's not waste energy on this. This is a Nazarene friendly forum. Which means, we follow Arminian/Wesleyan theology. From our point of view, this is a no brainer. And logically it is exactly the same. Just apologize, and let's get over it.
    Hans, I love your new signature line. A good and decent suggestion for sure!
    -Jim

    To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.

    Garrison Keillor

  20. #260
    Site Coordinator Hans Deventer's Avatar

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    Re: Syncretism and patriotism

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Chabot View Post
    Hans, I love your new signature line. A good and decent suggestion for sure!
    Would even be better if people actually read it and acted upon it.
    "No scripture can mean that God is not love, or that his mercy is not over all his works" (John Wesley - Free Grace, 26)
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  21. #261
    Senior Member Paul DeBaufer's Avatar

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    Re: Syncretism and patriotism

    Quote Originally Posted by Hans Deventer View Post
    Would even be better if people actually read it and acted upon it.
    Yes it would
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  22. #262
    Senior Member Jim Chabot's Avatar

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    Re: Syncretism and patriotism

    Quote Originally Posted by Hans Deventer View Post
    Would even be better if people actually read it and acted upon it.
    Come on Hans, Dave's message is either to all of us or it is to none of us. One must first be a friend before accusing another as being unfriendly, we must go two miles when we are asked to go one, neither one is extra.

    I'm guessing that you are talking about Marcus, and if you are, I'm hopeful that he will read Dave's message and take it to heart. I'm hopeful that we all will, I'm hopeful that we appreciate people above ideas and theology. Hey, I like you, I care about you, I want to be your friend and I agree with very very little of your theology. If we seek friendship and fellowship instead of castigating those who appear to fall short, we have a much greater chance of success.
    -Jim

    To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.

    Garrison Keillor

  23. #263
    Senior Member Jim Chabot's Avatar

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    Re: Syncretism and patriotism

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul DeBaufer View Post
    The doctrine of irresistible grace negates the choice, it predisposes us to like basketball over baseball without giving us the opportunity to choose baseball. We are not dragged kicking and screaming to basketball games preferring baseball, we cannot prefer baseball. We never had the choice.

    Not hoping to continue this discussion, and I'll drop it after this.

    But I have to wonder if our difficulty stems from our inability to actually assess whether we have a choice or not. I believe that we lack the ability to step far enough outside of ourselves to catch a glimpse of this. This is something that we can talk about until the cows come home and if we are honest we will say that there is always uncertainty as to what actually constitutes choice.

    And yes grace is resistible, however it get's framed.
    -Jim

    To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.

    Garrison Keillor
    Thanks Steven Burton, Paul DeBaufer - "thanks" for this post

  24. #264
    Site Coordinator Hans Deventer's Avatar

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    Re: Syncretism and patriotism

    Jim, see private message. Good suggestion if you really don't want to continue this.
    "No scripture can mean that God is not love, or that his mercy is not over all his works" (John Wesley - Free Grace, 26)

  25. #265
    Senior Member Jim Chabot's Avatar

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    Re: Syncretism and patriotism

    Quote Originally Posted by Hans Deventer View Post
    Jim, see private message. Good suggestion if you really don't want to continue this.
    I'm sorry if I was less than clear. The conversation that I'm willing to drop is the one about choice, I don't see us getting anywhere, I see it as mostly a difference in view or language rather than substantive and it always ends in a fight.

    The conversation about extending the hand of friendship is very important indeed. I have said it before, theology isn't worth the breath to talk about if we have not love for our fellow man. While I find theology interesting, I value people higher and I would rather be friends with a loving person with whom I disagree than an unfriendly person who shares my views.

    I'm sorry, but I cannot see Dave's message as directed to others, I need to see it as directed at me. I believe that we should take this message to heart and seek ways to be more friendly rather than to take opportunity to point out those who we don't like.
    -Jim

    To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.

    Garrison Keillor

  26. #266
    Senior Member Paul DeBaufer's Avatar

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    Re: Syncretism and patriotism

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Chabot View Post
    Not hoping to continue this discussion, and I'll drop it after this.

    But I have to wonder if our difficulty stems from our inability to actually assess whether we have a choice or not. I believe that we lack the ability to step far enough outside of ourselves to catch a glimpse of this. This is something that we can talk about until the cows come home and if we are honest we will say that there is always uncertainty as to what actually constitutes choice.

    And yes grace is resistible, however it get's framed.
    I kind of like the discussion about choice. I must agree that our freedom to choose is not absolute, it is, of course, framed. What is is we have to choose from is limited by the situation, our experiences, knowledge and understanding. In this Marcus' illustration of basketball vs. baseball works quite well. But then this would be a philosophical discussion concerning the nature of choice and freedom (no freedom is absolute, IMHO)
    You can be right or you can be in relationship
    Thanks Jim Chabot - "thanks" for this post

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    Senior Member Jim Chabot's Avatar

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    Re: Syncretism and patriotism

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul DeBaufer View Post
    I kind of like the discussion about choice. I must agree that our freedom to choose is not absolute, it is, of course, framed. What is is we have to choose from is limited by the situation, our experiences, knowledge and understanding. In this Marcus' illustration of basketball vs. baseball works quite well. But then this would be a philosophical discussion concerning the nature of choice and freedom (no freedom is absolute, IMHO)
    Absolutely
    -Jim

    To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.

    Garrison Keillor
    Thanks Paul DeBaufer - "thanks" for this post

  28. #268
    Senior Member Jim Chabot's Avatar

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    Re: Syncretism and patriotism

    Quote Originally Posted by Marcus Kibbe View Post
    "Be the change you wish to see in the world" - Mahatmu Gandhi

    "Ask not what your country can do for you - ask what you can do for your country" - John Fitzgerald Kenneddy

    "Everyone thinks of changing the world, but no one thinks of changing himself" - Leo Tolstoy

    "If you want to make the world a better place, take a look at yourself, and then make a change" - Michael Jackson
    Good grief! I've gotta ask. Did you read the message that Dave has posted? Do you agree or disagree with him?

    I'm thinking that we need to turn the corner here, I'm thinking that if your willing that there are folks here that are willing to be friendly toward you, if you'll allow us to. But firing back at Hans isn't the answer.

    I'm going to be truly heartbroken if I need to admit to Hans that he's been right along. Come on Marcus, if you really came here for fellowship and discussion, then never mind the past, now is the time.
    -Jim

    To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.

    Garrison Keillor
    Thanks Hans Deventer, Lucas Finch, David Graham - "thanks" for this post

  29. #269
    Host Theology Forum David Graham's Avatar

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    Re: Syncretism and patriotism

    This is a host post

    Sorry Marcus, but you are being IMHO deliberately inflamatory.

    I am not going to allow you to continue to post to this thread..... if you do so, I'll delete it!
    Please read Dave's post on the future direction of Naznet, before posting elsewhere.

    Hans I suggest that Marcus might need some time out.

    I'm deeply saddened that it has had to come to this.
    Dave Graham
    Naznet Host.
    Thanks Hans Deventer - "thanks" for this post

  30. #270
    Senior Member Steven Burton's Avatar

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    Re: Syncretism and patriotism

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul DeBaufer View Post
    I kind of like the discussion about choice. I must agree that our freedom to choose is not absolute, it is, of course, framed. What is is we have to choose from is limited by the situation, our experiences, knowledge and understanding. In this Marcus' illustration of basketball vs. baseball works quite well. But then this would be a philosophical discussion concerning the nature of choice and freedom (no freedom is absolute, IMHO)
    I would take you up on your offer of choice but that would mean i would have to start another thread.
    "Means we use must be as pure as the ends we seek."
    Thanks Paul DeBaufer - "thanks" for this post

  31. #271
    Host Fun & Prayer forums Gina Stevenson's Avatar

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    Re: Syncretism and patriotism

    Quote Originally Posted by Hans Deventer View Post
    Makes men willing ....... I rest my case.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Pugh View Post
    What part of IRRESISTIBLE involves choice? If something is irresistible, I have no choice to resist...
    Sounds very familiar, having grown up in a largely reformed area (tho' in a Catholic neighborhood). It seems that however it was explained, what we have read here is how it was understood ... those who were reformed definitely felt they were of "the elect," or they would not be in church (kids @ school), and how some, sad as that is, who were not of "the elect" simply had no choice but to go to hell, b/c they were not "chosen." Not sure what they did with the "whosoever" but explain that that was meant only for those who were a part of the "elect."
    Life beats down and crushes the soul and art reminds you that you have one.
    ~ Stella Adler ~

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    It takes a great deal of maturity to accept that trying to eliminate all risk eliminates life.
    ~ Susan Lapin ~
    Thanks Cam Pence, Paul DeBaufer, Steven Burton - "thanks" for this post

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