Nice page, isn't it? Just the other day I added the information on the 2013 conventionsOriginally Posted by David Pettigrew
Nice page, isn't it? Just the other day I added the information on the 2013 conventions
"No scripture can mean that God is not love, or that his mercy is not over all his works" (John Wesley - Free Grace, 26)Post Thanks / Like - 1 Thanks, 0 Praying, 0 LaughingDavid Pettigrew - "thanks" for this post
Touche'
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That wasn't opinion, it was fact. There are plenty of good reasons why the denomination prefers Indianapolis, not the least of which is that Indy is not a major conference destination, so they like us...alot.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us wthout end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
- C.S. Lewis
What is big (for the host city) is the opportunity cost; the more lucrative conferences that a city like Atlanta, Philadelphia or Denver would have to say 'no' to if they said 'yes' to the Nazarenes. If Indianapolis has the so-called 'conference capacity' for the General Assembly, it's mostly because they are a third-string conference destination.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us wthout end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
- C.S. Lewis
Indy's convention center is currently the 16th largest in the US - previously it was smaller, but access to the Dome allowed for us to use more space. There really aren't a lot of options for a convention the size of General Assembly. Sure, we might not be first on the list for Chicago, Las Vegas or New York - but Indy has a great set-up for us - and there really are few venues with the sheer space and nearby hotel capacity to do GA the way it's been done.
Denver might have a large convention center, but it would be much more difficult logistically than Indy is.
...just my $.02.Post Thanks / Like - 2 Thanks, 0 Praying, 0 Laughing
when I was on the Eastern Michigan District, I tried to get the DS to push for a GA in Detroit. It has the capacity, and there are abundant "One Heart Many Hands" opportunities there. Hotel rooms might be an issue since many of them are in casinos
I'm not complaining, just saying that I understand why Indy is a choice location for the denomination.
We also like thinking that we're a major player on the national conference stage, and that's just a bit of corporate puffery. So Indy says they have the 16th largest convention center in the US; according to Wikipedia the Indiana Convention Center isn't even in the top 25 in terms of square footage. They are the 12th largest city, so perhaps they are even laggards in this respect.
Indianapolis is a small market city that will be more likely to roll out the red carpet to a small denomination's quadrennial conference than a top-drawer city that would see our GA as a small-potatoes opportunity.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us wthout end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
- C.S. Lewis
There aren't enough rich Nazarenes in Detroit.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us wthout end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
- C.S. Lewis
I don't think this is true. A bigger city might not make us the only show in town like Indy does, which is nice - but $44m (the estimated economic impact the last time we were in Indy) is nothing any CVB would sneeze at - even in New York or Vegas.
...just my $.02.
Opryland
What do you mean, Billy? Are there so many rich Nazarenes in Indy that their support changes the financial picture significantly?
"No scripture can mean that God is not love, or that his mercy is not over all his works" (John Wesley - Free Grace, 26)
Surely there is nothing wrong with choosing the GA site based on existing financial infrastructure?? Everybody likes home-field advantage, and the only place more 'home-field' than Indianapolis is Kansas City.
I know you're used to Billy the cynic, but this is Billy the pragmatic realist.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us wthout end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
- C.S. LewisPost Thanks / Like - 1 Thanks, 0 Praying, 1 LaughingHeidi Anderson - thanks for this funny post
So there were also enough rich Nazarenes in San Antonio and Orlando? I'm not trying to be difficult, just trying to understand. The GA costs an incredible amount of money. I'm surprised that local wealth would play such a significant role, and I don't understand how. If one would care to explain, please do.
"No scripture can mean that God is not love, or that his mercy is not over all his works" (John Wesley - Free Grace, 26)
It's not so much wealth, but they do rely on lots of local volunteers. Louisville is most central to the most Nazarenes in terms of attendance, but Indy has a great location for the sheer number of available volunteers.
...just my $.02.Post Thanks / Like - 1 Thanks, 0 Praying, 0 Laughing
Yes, that's what I also understood as well. Seems to be the main reason why it is difficult to go anywhere else.
"No scripture can mean that God is not love, or that his mercy is not over all his works" (John Wesley - Free Grace, 26)
Opryland, there is a Nazarene church on practically every corner in Nashville, at least there was when I was growing up
The latest FFA convention in Indy had a projected economic impact of $40M in 3 days. By comparison, the 'estimated' $44M for 10 days of GA is like shifting the economic engine into neutral and coasting for a week and a half.
Suffice to say that the General Assembly isn't on any Convention/Visitor's Bureau in New York or Las Vegas. It's okay to be a minor league convention. Those annual conventions in top-tier cities are REALLY expensive.
Last edited by Hans Deventer; April 25th, 2012 at 02:16 AM. Reason: Edited for rather insulting content
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us wthout end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
- C.S. Lewis
Until the scope of the General Assembly is changed, we're more or less stuck with Indianapolis.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us wthout end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
- C.S. Lewis
No direct flights from Europe either. That's no improvement.
"No scripture can mean that God is not love, or that his mercy is not over all his works" (John Wesley - Free Grace, 26)
I don't think of those kinds of things, everywhere the Air Force sends me ends up as a direct flight ... more or less.No direct flights from Europe either. That's no improvement.
San Antonio was an aberration. South Texas district, even after merging San Antonio and Houston districts, is quite weak as districts go. You could ask someone in the know about the specifics, but I understand that the denomination got taken to the cleaners. The years when we try the non-Indy route serve to remind us why we have most GAs in Indy.
I don't know what kind of incentives got us to Orlando, but someone on the General Board could likely fill you in.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us wthout end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
- C.S. Lewis
Always on my mind. I love direct flights. Then you don't have to worry how long it's going to take to pass customs and immigration service before you can catch your next plane. Now it's actually not bad, there are lots of US cities with a direct connection. Just from the top of my head: LA, San Francisco, Portland, Seattle, Minneapolis/St Paul, Chicago, Detroit, Cincinatti, Boston, NYC, DC, Philadelphia, Atlanta, Orlando, Houston. And there's probably more. It's a subject of interest to me
"No scripture can mean that God is not love, or that his mercy is not over all his works" (John Wesley - Free Grace, 26)Post Thanks / Like - 1 Thanks, 0 Praying, 0 Laughing
Everyone seems to have this picture of Indy as a stronghold of Nazarenedom. With 59 organized churches, the district is actually quite average by USA standards, and has been in a statistical decline for the last two decades. For years, Indy was a perceived center for legalism in the CotN, but I think even that has changed somewhat.
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Let's have the next GA in Capetown SA
I don't guess Indy itself is the center of Nazarenedom in the USA, but I do think Indiana/Ohio together probably is.
http://nazarene.org/files/docs/NazareneChurchesUS.pdf
http://nazarene.org/files/docs/worship1.pdf
http://nazarene.org/files/docs/NazAdhBG.pdf
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By the way... all of this discussion about the size of our assembly/conventions reminded me...
The other day I read an article about the UMC General Conference (which is happening right now.) It's a four-year global conference like ours. The UMC is a MUCH larger denomination than ours. But the statistic I read indicated that they would have 1000 delegates and an additional 2500 guests... which is significantly smaller than our assembly. I realize that doesn't put us on the same playing field as a RNC or DNC... but as far as religious conventions go, ours might be more significant then we realize.
Grace and Peace,
Jon Twitchell
Cape Elizabeth Church of the Nazarene | YourChurchWeb.net | YourChurchPianist.net | FuneralChaplain.com
Everyone on naznet seems to want to confuse me with the facts these days...
I was referring to just the Indianapolis district and not the whole state, but still, point taken. Those were really cool maps! Dallas doesn't look so shabby.
If the point is making an impact, maybe we should go out west for 2017. I hear Salt Lake City is nice.
Looking at the second map reminds me of something that I was told several years ago. If you draw a circle around Indianapolis reaching out 600 miles (maybe it was just 300 miles - 600 across) more than half the Nazarenes in the US will be inside that circle. It looks as if that's still true.
Princes Cruise Line - Then we could just swing around to the different continents and pick up the delegates. Then you could have the assemby in international waters.
Really?? That would be spectacular if we were in the religious convention business.
There is an organizational value to conventions but their missional value is indirect AT BEST. I wonder how many missionaries we could train and send, or how many world areas we could open with the $4M that the GMC is spending in the event. I won't even touch on all of the money that goes into the pockets of airlines, hotels, restaurants, gas stations.
Some boast that we spread $44M around Indianaplois during our general assembly, I feel shame and maybe a bit of rage...not so much because of the amount of money but because we take pride in it.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us wthout end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
- C.S. Lewis
It is a shame. I've always thought we should get rid of everything, but the business meeting. It's still a pretty massive undertaking, but it would be a better use of our time and money.
...just my $.02.
And more bloated than necessary?
Meeting every four years is fun. Being Nazarene means being part of a family. If we never get together, why bother having a denomination at all? I love General Assembly, and will be really sad if we ever do away with it.
That 44 million means JOBS for people in Indianapolis - people that need those jobs. I think that has more of an impact than much of our denominational budget.
One Heart, Many Hands makes a great impact on any city we bless with our business.
Seriously, this cynical belly aching is wearing on my nerves and the searching for a foul motive in every decision that is made is getting really old.
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How do they structure that? I mean, how are those delegates selected, etc? Is it a structure that we could conceivably move to? Such a gathering would be much simpler than our current GA's.
And, as others mentioned, we have other conferences and gatherings (like the M conferences) for those looking for the "family reunion" connections. I've been to most of the M-conferences and enjoyed them very much.
OK, back on-topic: I was going to say, "Pick any major European city," as they all have international airports and probably have convention space... but then someone mentioned the need for local Nazarene volunteers, and Europe has very few Nazarenes.
If Seoul or Johannesburg or Toronto work, I'm game.
Well... realistically, I might not make it, if I'm not a delegate. I didn't even bother to go to Orlando!
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I don't know... I'm sorry.
I don't even know for sure that the article was accurate... although I bounced it off one UMC minister who said it sounded about right, but that he'd never been, so he didn't know.
Part of the size of our GA may also be related to the fact that we have separate conventions which run concurrently... and we may also simply elect a lot more delegates! I just don't know. sorry.
Grace and Peace,
Jon Twitchell
Cape Elizabeth Church of the Nazarene | YourChurchWeb.net | YourChurchPianist.net | FuneralChaplain.com
Salt Lake City. That would be interesting. Volunteers might be hard to come by. They average 135 Nazarenes between 3 churches for the entire state. Then again the LDS church is very helpful and they might supply a bunch of volunteers. At least I might be able to go to that one. Never have been to one myself.
I would suggest Cody WY, but Hans might complain since we only have 2 flights a day and I am sure the connections required are numerous. Instead of everyone in hotels we could really make it a woodstock kind of event. We have a lot of open space out here so everyone could just bring their own tent. Imagine the savings! Just get a generator, a big stage, and some portable lights. Everyone could just bring their own chairs.
But now that I think about it, the cruise line does sound more fun. Just rent a small island for the stage and have 10 cruise ships dock around the island for the meetings. Who cares about the cost. Church is all about us isn't it?
I don't have any suggestions, but can't resist posting from the lobby of the Hyatt Regency in downtown Indianapolis with some comments.
I'm here for an international conference concerning a specific type of open source integrated library software (Evergreen). There are around 300 attendees from ten countries. We're occupying one section of the Hyatt. There are at least two other conferences going on in the area, including one for occupational therapists in the new convention center (just down the street) which has around 10,000 attenders by the estimate of a participant I talked to in the elevator. That's a lot of name tags but not nearly so many as when the Nazarenes come to town. We're certainly not the biggest game in town but might be bigger than average.
This morning's keynote speaker at the conference I'm attending was Jono Bacon. He has two primary identities -- 1) a major role in the Ubuntu community; 2) author of the book The Art of Community. (I felt a bit guilty as I listened and took notes because I was on the clock for the library but totally focused on how his comments apply to the church. I now have the book downloaded and ready to go on my ereader.)
Among other things, Bacon talked about how in the world of software end-users prefer forums but developers want email listservers. Still, a face-to-face gathering like this one builds community in a way that can never happen online. Right now, four young men have gathered in my "space" and are carrying on an animated conversation connected to an upcoming session. It's interesting to think about how long it would take them over the internet to exchange the same number of on-topic words that have floated past me in the past half hour.
In a world in which the word "distance" is often put together with "education" and travel to a single destination is viewed as a waste of time and money, I like this reminder that sometimes what is most needed to build community is to gather the members of that community into one physical space and facilitate face-to-face communication. I love the family feel of General Assembly.
Marsha
"Transformation comes more from pursuing profound questionsblog: www.marshalyn.blogspot.com
than seeking practical answers."
-- Peter Block in The Answer to How Is Yes
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I suggest Holland! With excursions led by Hans. Met vriendelijke groet.
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Salt Lake City. That would be interesting. Volunteers might be hard to come by. They average 135 Nazarenes between 3 churches for the entire state. Then again the LDS church is very helpful and they might supply a bunch of volunteers. At least I might be able to go to that one. Never have been to one myself.
I would suggest Cody WY, but Hans might complain since we only have 2 flights a day and I am sure the connections required are numerous. Instead of everyone in hotels we could really make it a woodstock kind of event. We have a lot of open space out here so everyone could just bring their own tent. Imagine the savings! Just get a generator, a big stage, and some portable lights. Everyone could just bring their own chairs.
But now that I think about it, the cruise line does sound more fun. Just rent a small island for the stage and have 10 cruise ships dock around the island for the meetings. Who cares about the cost. Church is all about us isn't it?
No, no no, you have your thinking all wrong. Think outdoor campmeeting revival type thing with a Charles Finney feel to it. Then you could sell it.
If 'we' is several thousand people in a denomination approaching 2 million, then plenty of 'us' have never been to a GA and never will. I'm blown away by this line of reasoning; "if we can't get together every four years to overeat and talk shop for 10 straight days, then why bother having a denomination." Really??
But I have to congratulate you on being a regular part of the Nazarene version of the 1 percent.
David, do you realize how bogus an argument that is? The aim of the GA is not to generate economic activity for a deserving Midwestern city.
Great. I bet they don't need a big religious convention to justify their existence.
It's not about motives, it's about stewardship. If the GA delivered a missional return on investment, you can bet that the denomination would find a way to do GA every year.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us wthout end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
- C.S. Lewis
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