"Time" after Death

[Wilson Deaton]

In another thread:

My own view is that time is a part of creation and doesn't exist in the same way after death.

Naturally, this is all just purely speculative, but that doesn't stop me from being very intrigued and fascinated by the topic.

[I've never met a time travel movie I didn't like... (well maybe I did but don't remember it)]

First, I THINK I agree that time is part of creation.

However, I don't end up where Dave ends up. I believe that from the instant God said, "Let there be light," there was light AND time. I believe that as long creation persists, time will persist.

Even though things will be different (glorified bodies), I think for all eternity we will continue to experience time/duration just as we do now, EXCEPT we will never be frustrated with it; things won't seem too slow, too fast, not last long enough, etc.

For example: We will always be aware and conscious of having a "past." We will always be aware and conscious of a "present." We will always be aware and conscious of a "future." We will always be able to distinguish between past, present and future. We will, however, never find ourselves wishing for the good old days or being unable to "wait until next week." We will have the perfect balance between enjoying the present while still anticipating the future.

I think as part of creation, time was "good." I think falleness is what gives time its frustrating aspects. In short, I don't think we'll ever "escape" time, we'll just get to the point of never being frustrated by time.

Wilson

[Steven Burton]

Well you could say time is another dimension if you are talking physics. Also having God outside of time creates a non changeable God. Because the very definition of time requires change. So really if you want to verify God not changing then God outside of time is the greatest argument for that point. That is the argument set up by some early theologians. In which time equates to change and a God who changes is not really God because for a thing to perfect it must not change and God is perfect. (Plato) This seems to have heavily influence Augustine at some point. I reject some of these assumptions and opt for more Aristotle from my understanding. That if the object is doing what it was created to due then it is good. The problem I see with time is we don't have clear understanding of time at this point. The more I learn about the more I find that we really are not sure about this concept.

[Gina Stevenson]

Other than Back to the Future, it was interesting when Gavin McLeod was in one sometime in the last few years ... forget its name now. Guess I don't mind such movies, either, Wilson.

Good old google ... movie name = Time Changer.

[Susan Unger]

Three threads on death....hmmm.....

[Steven Burton]

Three threads on death....hmmm.....

Glad I am not the only one that noticed that. My ex-boss also mention when I was signing some papers he had another funeral to go to. While I like the "back to the future" movies I really can't watch them anymore because of to much science and philosophy that has changed my opinion on it. And I tend to get opinionated towards movie that depict a certain idea. Just ask my wife.

[Wilson Deaton]

Three threads on death....hmmm.....

Oh, but this isn't a thread on death. This is a thread on "time."

Wilson

[Susan Unger]

Oh, but this isn't a thread on death. This is a thread on "time."

Wilson

...after DEATH.

Looking at the titles of the threads I kept seeing the word death or allusions to it. I was getting confused. And there is the whole Good Friday thing coming up....

[Susan Unger]

Glad I am not the only one that noticed that. My ex-boss also mention when I was signing some papers he had another funeral to go to. While I like the "back to the future" movies I really can't watch them anymore because of to much science and philosophy that has changed my opinion on it. And I tend to get opinionated towards movie that depict a certain idea. Just ask my wife.

I'm glad you noticed it too!

[Pete Vecchi]

So, is God bound by time?

[Hans Deventer]

So, is God bound by time?

How would we know? All we have is the way He is revealed in time. We have no knowledge of God beyond that paradigm.

[Dave McClung]

In another thread:


Naturally, this is all just purely speculative, but that doesn't stop me from being very intrigued and fascinated by the topic.

[I've never met a time travel movie I didn't like... (well maybe I did but don't remember it)]

First, I THINK I agree that time is part of creation.

However, I don't end up where Dave ends up. I believe that from the instant God said, "Let there be light," there was light AND time. I believe that as long creation persists, time will persist.

Even though things will be different (glorified bodies), I think for all eternity we will continue to experience time/duration just as we do now, EXCEPT we will never be frustrated with it; things won't seem too slow, too fast, not last long enough, etc.

For example: We will always be aware and conscious of having a "past." We will always be aware and conscious of a "present." We will always be aware and conscious of a "future." We will always be able to distinguish between past, present and future. We will, however, never find ourselves wishing for the good old days or being unable to "wait until next week." We will have the perfect balance between enjoying the present while still anticipating the future.

I think as part of creation, time was "good." I think falleness is what gives time its frustrating aspects. In short, I don't think we'll ever "escape" time, we'll just get to the point of never being frustrated by time.

Wilson

We have no trouble believing that God isn't limited by the other three deminisions. Why would a God who isn't limited by height, depth or width be limited by duration? God is present in the past, present and future without limitation -- they are all the same to him. Think about it. What else did God mean when he said, "I am?"

[Ryan Scott]

Tom Oord, I think, talked once (and probably more than once, but I only heard it once) about God and time in a way that intrigued me. I'll try to summarize what I heard and he can later correct my misrepresentation.

We measure time based on events. We can't understand a year without the Earth revolving around the sun, a day without the Earth'sown revolution, etc. All created time is based on events.

Tom's suggestion was that God experiences something like time, but a time not based on events - a time that can lack a beginning and an end (something impossible for our perception of time).

The rationale being that 1) nearly everything created is somehow a simple reflection of God, why would time be different, 2) the usual explanations for a God inside and outside of time are less than persuasive - a God inside time would be overly limited and a God outside of time would have difficulty interacting within time.

Essentially, I understood Tom's point to be an attempt to address God's action within time with God's transcendence and eternalness.

It makes sense to me.

[Craig Laughlin]

How would we know? All we have is the way He is revealed in time. We have no knowledge of God beyond that paradigm.

According to Einstein time is a function of matter in motion. That is to say in order for time to exist there has to be matter. (And it has to be in motion) So if God the Father and the Holy Spirit are truly Spiritual beings then they by definition must exist outside of time. (if they have matter then they must either be subject to the laws of creation {physics, chemistry, math etc} or they must be super-creation, which is not our creation at all) Jesus having a material body must exist inside of time. The difficulty is we can't really say anything about a God who exist outside of time because time is an inescapable part of our experience. So much so that we can hardly even talk without some sort of time reference. Thus to talk meaningfully about a being who exist outside of time is nearly impossible. - I have heard a few try to talk about sequence but that too is a time based understanding.

Edit - A part of the genius of the incarnation is that God can and does exist both inside and outside of time at the same time... {er... well you understand) - Only God can do that. I have no doubt that 500 years from now this will be an integral part of our understanding of the trinity and they will have much better language for talking about it.

[G R 'Scott' Cundiff]

We have no trouble believing that God isn't limited by the other three deminisions. Why would a God who isn't limited by height, depth or width be limited by duration? God is present in the past, present and future without limitation -- they are all the same to him. Think about it. What else did God mean when he said, "I am?"

To me, the way in which the Lord is unlimited by time is that he is eternal. After the passing of a day he hasn't aged, but remains the same.

I understand that there are theories in physics about time being variable, etc., but I have a hard time believing that God can undo something that has happened. If he could, would we have the story of the Great Flood? If the Lord was sorry he created humans wouldn't he have just "uncreated" them rather than destroy them?

Also, to imagine God as outside time, I'd have to imagine that somewhere in time Jesus is still hanging on a cross - yet the Bible says that his death was "once and for all."

I think "time" is just the measure of the flow of events. One thing happened and then the next thing happened - time being the measure of how those two things relate to one another: "before" and "after."

[Billy Cox]

Tom Oord, I think, talked once (and probably more than once, but I only heard it once) about God and time in a way that intrigued me. I'll try to summarize what I heard and he can later correct my misrepresentation.

We measure time based on events. We can't understand a year without the Earth revolving around the sun, a day without the Earth'sown revolution, etc. All created time is based on events.

I believe that time does not exist at all, but is an observable attribute of an ever-changing creation.

[Dave McClung]

- a God inside time would be overly limited and a God outside of time would have difficulty interacting within time.

Essentially, I understood Tom's point to be an attempt to address God's action within time with God's transcendence and eternalness.

It makes sense to me.

Just as God has established free moral agency, he has chose to limit his interaction with living men by time, but the limitation is man's limit, not God's.

[Wilson Deaton]

Just as God has established free moral agency, he has chose to limit his interaction with living men by time, but the limitation is man's limit, not God's.

Just supposing you are right about this, Dave. I still no reason to believe that our death and resurrection will change our experience of time to God's experience of time. That is, just because our future becomes eternal that doesn't mean we will stop experiencing time as a sequence of past, present, and future. Even if God is "outside" of time, that still just applies to God and not to us. We will forever remain inside of time.

Wilson

[Pete Vecchi]

Here's something I've pondered for quite a while...

If God isn't bound by time, can we not pray for something that has already occurred and God honor it because He knew we would pray for it? For instance, we could pray today that the people on the Mayflower would have a safe voyage to the New World and successfully establish a colony there that would eventually grow into a new nation.

I know that sounds preposterous. However, let me put it into another scenario.

Say a person named Obadiah is scheduled to have surgery on Wednesday at 11:00am. Obadiah asks his friend Jonah to to pray for him starting at 11:00. So at 11:00 on Wednesday, Jonah begins to pray in earnest for his friend, Obadiah.

However, unbeknownst to Jonah, Obadiah's surgery was moved up to 9:00, and at 9:52, the surgeon encountered a critical, life-threatening problem that seemed to "miraculously" take care of itself.

Is it out of the question to believe that God in his foreknowledge, honored Jonah's prayer that God knew Jonah would utter later?

I don't have an answer to this; I'm just posing the question.

[Gina Stevenson]

Pete, seeing it says you edited this "yesterday," in the spirit of the post you wrote, could not help but have the strange tho't that even if you didn't edit it until "today" ... or "tomorrow" ... it would show up this morning, b/c it was obvious there was something in it that you were going to edit?

{just the weird way my mind works sometimes }

To add, in a more serious vein, have tho't more than once about perhaps some of Grandma J's/Aunt Amy's/Danny's (others?) prayers still being in effect years after they're gone . . . another time lapse thing, perhaps . . . waaay after the fact/years after they're prayed . . . .