Open Theism - Why is it a problem?

[G R 'Scott' Cundiff]

I truly do not understand how God (Creator) can be bound by that which he created (the universe and everything in it), to include the man-made measurement we call "time."

This is a lot more about the nature of time than it is about the nature of God.

Could God change the length of an inch? If he did, he'd just be changing the definition of "inch" - the original length would still be the same.

If we decide that God did, indeed, create "a minute" and "a year" then we all agree that he has complete authority over them. If we decide that they are merely ways to measure relationships between events, then we see that saying God doesn't exist "outside time" doesn't "bind" God at all.

[Doug Ward]

This is a lot more about the nature of time than it is about the nature of God.

Could God change the length of an inch? If he did, he'd just be changing the definition of "inch" - the original length would still be the same.

If we decide that God did, indeed, create "a minute" and "a year" then we all agree that he has complete authority over them. If we decide that they are merely ways to measure relationships between events, then we see that saying God doesn't exist "outside time" doesn't "bind" God at all.

Of course, we are all aware that this thing called time, even as created by God is not unchangeable - even in our created existence. Others far more knowledgeable than me can explain this better, but astronauts, who have spent a week in the space shuttle, travelling at vast speeds, return to Earth several seconds younger than they would have been had they remained on Earth. As speed increases, time slows down. I do not know the formula, and cannot write the equation, as I am a few credits shy of my degree in Astrophysics.

[G R 'Scott' Cundiff]

Of course, we are all aware that this thing called time, even as created by God is not unchangeable - even in our created existence. Others far more knowledgeable than me can explain this better, but astronauts, who have spent a week in the space shuttle, travelling at vast speeds, return to Earth several seconds younger than they would have been had they remained on Earth. As speed increases, time slows down. I do not know the formula, and cannot write the equation, as I am a few credits shy of my degree in Astrophysics.

I can't quite grasp it - the "few seconds younger" - how can we tell that? Anyway, that's what I was talking about here: http://www.naznet.com/community/show...l=1#post131784

[Doug Ward]

The problem I have with theology in general is that theology in and of itself is an academic disclipline, not a divine revelation. I personally think that we have way more theologist than we need and not near enough preachers, prophets, and teachers. I get annoyed when someone says "I'm not a teacher, I'm an educator." Really? Does any english translation of the Bible use the term educator instead of teacher. There's probably one. Even so, I don't see theologist or educator on the list of things we are called to be. I'm told Rabbi means teacher.

I didn't personally come to know Jesus through theology, open or otherwise. I came to Christ through the witness and life of Christian parents and came to my decision point through a compelling sermon that convinced me I needed to make a choice and I needed to make it now. I chose, I am choosing, and will continue to choose daily to die to the world and live to Christ.

I dunno, just sayin...

Dan, this is a sloppy, ill-considered post. I have heard a number of great preachers in my lifetime, and many in our own denomination. However, good theologians are few and far between. A great preacher, who moves people and communicates well, if that person expresses bad theology - all their communication skills have gone for naught.

Our world suffers from a lack of solid theology. Our church lacks good theology. We express a God who predetermines the future of individuals, and a collective world. We express a God who is responsible for evil. We communicate that Baptism is a celebration of a person's choice. We say Infant Baptism is not what Christians do. We tell people that babies dying are part of "God's will." We tell the people that salvation is reciting words of a "sinners prayer." We tell people that Jesus is coming again, but only after a 7 year bad period, initiated by a secret removal of all the Christians - even if that scenario directly contradicts Scripture. We have even had great preachers in our church predict the date - October of 1981, then 1988.

We tell people that Sanctification eradicates any residue of sin, and then explain how people do immoral acts afterwards. We tell people that holiness is characterized by a time stamp of secondness, far more than a quality of Christlikeness. We tell people that holiness is a personal, moral crusade instead of a purity of relational love between we and God, and each other. We tell people about holiness and then have church splits over carpet color. We talk about holiness, and then have email campaigns against our colleges, and District Superintendents launch screeds against schools other churches, and this evil, shadowy, emergent movement. We talk about holiness, and have denominational leaders at headquarters act to undermine local churches, and local pastors.

Dan our theology is not fine. It needs to be expressed well at all times and in every generation. The world is not lost becuase they have not heard our message - they are lost because they have heard us, then watched how we live.

[Dwayne Petry]

"Our GOD is an awesome GOD"!

Before the foundation of the world He looked forward, as only He could do, and saw every choice every human would make, (good, bad, and otherwise). Because He desired a relationship with you and I, He created mankind, knowing the price would include Calvary.

Because He knew every choice that would be made, does not mean that He predestined any of the choices. He knew the outcome of those of faith, as well as the outcome of the choices of the unbeliever, yet this awesome GOD allows us to make our own choices, while His desire is "whosoever believes in Him"!

My problem with this was that GOD must be "bored" foreknowing everything, just waiting for it to happen. Because my "simple" mind needed a "simple" example to help me deal with this "complex" issue, the Holy Spirit gave me this "simple" example.

Because we humans cannot really foreknow anything, I struggled with how GOD could foreknow and still get "excited" or feel "disappointment" about something He knew would happen. Here's the example.

If our child or grandchild has no physical handicap, we "know" that they will learn to walk. Though we "know " they will walk, we to a person, are "excited" and look forward to our child or grandchild taking that first step. Why, we crawl around on the floor to the point of making a "fool" of ourselves, wanting that baby to take the first step toward us. If they fall and begin to cry, we encourage them to get up and try again. When those first steps are taken we celebrate the occasion with "hugs and kisses" and tell everyone we know. If we can get that excited about something we "knew" was going to happen, how much more does our Heavenly Father get excited (or disappointed) about something He "knew" was going to happen.

How awesome is our GOD, that He would allow me to "see" in a way that puts to rest the struggle I had with His foreknowing all things.

[Dan Henderson]

What you describe here fits the Open Theism view of God very well. God knows us so well that he can very accurately anticipate what we will do in any situation. But he doesn't KNOW what choice we will make as one might know a settled fact, because the outcome of our choice is still future and unsettled.

So if what you described here is your view of how God "knows" the future choices of creatures to whom he has given free will... Congratulations! You're an Open Theist!

Except in my little "fundie" world, God does know and is not guessing anything. Yet he still lets me make my own choices even though he has the power to do otherwise.

[Hans Deventer]

Except in my little "fundie" world, God does know and is not guessing anything. Yet he still lets me make my own choices even though he has the power to do otherwise.

One does not have to be a "fundie" to believe so. I actually also believe God knows everything there is to know.

[Paul DeBaufer]

Except in my little "fundie" world, God does know and is not guessing anything. Yet he still lets me make my own choices even though he has the power to do otherwise.

Hmmmm, a closet open theist trying to clothe it in "fundie" clothing? Don't worry Dan, we won't tell, won't give you away.

[G R 'Scott' Cundiff]

"Our GOD is an awesome GOD"!

Before the foundation of the world He looked forward, as only He could do, and saw every choice every human would make, (good, bad, and otherwise). Because He desired a relationship with you and I, He created mankind, knowing the price would include Calvary.

Dwayne, if time works as you believe it does, I'm with you all the way. I'm not sure it works that way, but if it does, God can see it with perfect clarity.

[Doug Ward]

Scott, here is a link that explains time dilation and space travel. My basic premise was right, although I overstated the effect.

http://spaceflight.nasa.gov/station/..._letter13.html

[Rich Schmidt]

Except in my little "fundie" world, God does know and is not guessing anything. Yet he still lets me make my own choices even though he has the power to do otherwise.

First, like others have said, you don't have to be a fundamentalist to believe that's how time & God's foreknowledge work.

Second, if that's how you view things... then what was the point of your open-theism-like example? I don't get it.

[Dan Henderson]

Dan, this is a sloppy, ill-considered post. I have heard a number of great preachers in my lifetime, and many in our own denomination. However, good theologians are few and far between. A great preacher, who moves people and communicates well, if that person expresses bad theology - all their communication skills have gone for naught.

Our world suffers from a lack of solid theology. Our church lacks good theology. We express a God who predetermines the future of individuals, and a collective world. We express a God who is responsible for evil. We communicate that Baptism is a celebration of a person's choice. We say Infant Baptism is not what Christians do. We tell people that babies dying are part of "God's will." We tell the people that salvation is reciting words of a "sinners prayer." We tell people that Jesus is coming again, but only after a 7 year bad period, initiated by a secret removal of all the Christians - even if that scenario directly contradicts Scripture. We have even had great preachers in our church predict the date - October of 1981, then 1988.

We tell people that Sanctification eradicates any residue of sin, and then explain how people do immoral acts afterwards. We tell people that holiness is characterized by a time stamp of secondness, far more than a quality of Christlikeness. We tell people that holiness is a personal, moral crusade instead of a purity of relational love between we and God, and each other. We tell people about holiness and then have church splits over carpet color. We talk about holiness, and then have email campaigns against our colleges, and District Superintendents launch screeds against schools other churches, and this evil, shadowy, emergent movement. We talk about holiness, and have denominational leaders at headquarters act to undermine local churches, and local pastors.

Dan our theology is not fine. It needs to be expressed well at all times and in every generation. The world is not lost becuase they have not heard our message - they are lost because they have heard us, then watched how we live.

Hi Doug, Slpooy, I'll agree. I should never post after midnight. Ill considered, not on your life. I have a right to my opinion. And my opnion is that we need less "Study of God" and more proclaimation of God's message of salvation. This is Good News, and we're talking about time dilation and if it affects God. We can die to the world with Christ and live with him now and for eternity. This is Good News. Yet we talk about innerrancy, ad nausium, and confuse our general population and distract them from the Good News.

[Doug Ward]

Hi Doug, Slpooy, I'll agree. I should never post after midnight. Ill considered, not on your life. I have a right to my opinion. And my opnion is that we need less "Study of God" and more proclaimation of God's message of salvation. This is Good News, and we're talking about time dilation and if it affects God. We can die to the world with Christ and live with him now and for eternity. This is Good News. Yet we talk about innerrancy, ad nausium, and confuse our general population and distract them from the Good News.

Any expression of the good news is theology. Whether we do it well, or do it poorly will determine how effective we are.

No one denies your right to an opinion - even if it is ill-considered.

Certainly you are not suggesting that people discussing what interests them is somehow distracting to the proclamation of the gospel. I hope you are not suggesting we ignore philosophical questions, or scientific theory, as we exist in our world. There are a host of people out there, I would like to think we have good thinkers within the church that can converse with them on a range of topics - even if it is not your topic. By I do not want to go on ad naseum.

[G R 'Scott' Cundiff]

In spite of the fact that I think this topic is more about one's philosophy of the nature of time than it is about the nature of God, I do think it matters. I've seen fine Christian people who, in great pain, wondered why God, who they believe saw into the future, allowed them to innocently follow a path to absolute disaster in their lives. I've heard other Christians try to comfort them with platitudes that "It's all for the best" and "God knows what he's doing." The pain is multiplied by the sense that God has misled them and forsaken them.

At such times I've gently tried to change their focus to the fact that the Lord walks with us even in the midst of disaster, that he promises to never forsake us, and that he is no stranger to pain and loss.

There's something powerful about changing the focus from "Why did God, who knew from the creation of the world that this would happen let it happen?" to "He is Lord of my life and he is with me whatever happens...even when life brings unexpected and unwelcome things to me."

The first fits more the "he looked ahead in time" approach and the second fits the "he's God whatever comes" approach. A person can be a Christian using either one, but I prefer the second and believe it's more helpful when the chips are down.

[Dan Henderson]

Any expression of the good news is theology. Whether we do it well, or do it poorly will determine how effective we are.

No one denies your right to an opinion - even if it is ill-considered.

Certainly you are not suggesting that people discussing what interests them is somehow distracting to the proclamation of the gospel. I hope you are not suggesting we ignore philosophical questions, or scientific theory, as we exist in our world. There are a host of people out there, I would like to think we have good thinkers within the church that can converse with them on a range of topics - even if it is not your topic. By I do not want to go on ad naseum.

No intent of insult, I am a direct communicator, so I use few words. My most frequent error is using too few words. As I posted earlier I often call on a common body of knowledge that is, well, not common. What I am trying to convey here is best described in a credo from another profession, the physician. "First, do no harm". I think the world of Academic Theology does considerable harm to the Gospel message, even when it might be correct. Consider, for example, the Greathouse/Dunning statement: "If God is our Father, the Church is our mother". I am not discussing the merits of the statement here, but its impact as it adds confusion to the masses. I wil grant you for the purposes of this post the possiblilty that this statement is sound theologically. But consider this. If the Bible chararterizes the Church as the Body of Christ, the former charateration of the Church as our mother serves to confuse. If the Bible characterizes the Church as the Bride of Christ, the former consideration of the Church as our mother serves to confuse. This is just and example, I am not able to debate the merit of the statements from an Academic Theological standpoint, only from the point of commincations.

[Doug Ward]

No intent of insult, I am a direct communicator, so I use few words. My most frequent error is using too few words. As I posted earlier I often call on a common body of knowledge that is, well, not common. What I am trying to convey here is best described in a credo from another profession, the physician. "First, do no harm". I think the world of Academic Theology does considerable harm to the Gospel message, even when it might be correct. Consider, for example, the Greathouse/Dunning statement: "If God is our Father, the Church is our mother". I am not discussing the merits of the statement here, but its impact as it adds confusion to the masses. I wil grant you for the purposes of this post the possiblilty that this statement is sound theologically. But consider this. If the Bible chararterizes the Church as the Body of Christ, the former charateration of the Church as our mother serves to confuse. If the Bible characterizes the Church as the Bride of Christ, the former consideration of the Church as our mother serves to confuse. This is just and example, I am not able to debate the merit of the statements from an Academic Theological standpoint, only from the point of commincations.

Not to press a point too far, but why is that confusing. Given that Jesus describes Himself using "mother" language in the gospels, and the direct reference to the church as "mother" in Revelation 12, it would we seem we have solid ground for such a description. When considering that I never once considered abandoning my mother due to the color of her blouse, why do we have so many people willing to abandon a church because of the color of the carpeting. Perhaps this talk os the church as mother has more benefit than we might originally think.

[Kyle Borger]

If the future is fully known is it the future or the present? I would concur that if my future is fully known, every action and every breath I take then there is no choice on my part to be made. I am simply an actor in a play.

I suggest that if God knows every action, every thought, that every person will ever make or take that we are not separate from God. This whole thing we call life would just be a dream or something happening in God's imagination.

A man who is put into sensory deprivation will go insane. I can't imagine God before creation but maybe God needs us to be complete. We know that God is love. If there was nothing else in existence except for God then He could only love himself. It seems to me that in order to complete God's existence as love that He had to create something outside of himself.

Let's imagine that you create a robot. You program it to do all sorts of amazing things and you program that robot to make choices. But because you programmed it, you know every decision that will be made in every situation that robot encounters. Is the robot really making a choice or just following a predetermined course? You aren't there telling the robot what to do, but it is following your built in instructions. How long would your interest in that robot last? Now imagine that you create a robot who following some of that initial programming is actually able to start writing its own programming and begins making choices that you could not have predicted? Would your fascination and interest in the robot increase? Would the fact that this robot can make its own choices that you did not predict make you less of a programmer or more of a programmer?

Why is that in order for God to be powerful and mighty He has to be in charge of every thought we have and know every choice we will make? Could it be that God is more powerful and mighty because He is able to live with us in relationship and work with a creation that is not always under his control? Which is the more loving creator?

I am suggesting that perhaps God is able to love us more because He doesn't know our choices. I am suggesting that perhaps we are more interesting because God doesn't know. Perhaps God could not be love if the future is known.

What about the prophesies and predictions? What about Jesus and how He answered every one of them?

How about miracles? We define a miracle as God intervening. I would be remiss if I didn't accept that at times God breaks the rules He put in motion to get us where we need to be.

So quite simply while playing by the rules with His creation there were times and events and some events into the future that God determined must happen for the welfare of His creation, but as a whole God plays by the rules He created when He created all that we know. In fact there continue to events every day where God most likely intervenes and breaks the rules to protect His children or to push us in a direction we need to take to properly serve Him.

How mighty and powerful is God that God is in every instant living in personal relationship with over 7 billion people. Many of those may be ignoring God, but that doesn't mean He is not aware of them and working in their lives. Yes, every instant God is aware of us and our thoughts, but somehow limits his knowledge of the choices we will make out of a necessity to allow us to complete Him. And in some instances God knowing what is happening across the world steps in and puts things in our paths to steer us in a different direction. Sometimes the Holy Spirit speaks to us to encourage us go a certain direction. Sometimes God causes a car to speed up or slow down to spare our life. Sometimes God touches a part of our body and heals us and other times in great pain and sorrow He doesn't.

To me a God that knows every choice that will be made is a distant God who just created things and is letting them run the way He planned it. But a God that chooses to limit his knowledge of what I will do in a given circumstance loves me so much that He is willing to get into the mix of things and has to work with me and everything He has created and interact with us on a second by second basis in order to respond and react to what we do.

The way my mind works it just makes God so much more impressive and loving.

[Dan Henderson]

The way my mind works it just makes God so much more impressive and loving.

I thin it is wonderful, that we can have so many different opinions of the nature of God, yet I am fully convinced that he loves everyone of us outright and unconditionally. That is what is impressive to me. John in his Revelations, is largy trying to describe what I believe was beyond description. Streets of gold .. I doubt they will be so cheap. In describing what he saw, he was limited to his language and by the capacity of his understanding. Someone will no doubt post that I am declaring God as unknowable. Maybe so. What I do know is that we believe in prevenient grace (the grace that goes before). That being that I cannot know that I am apart from God unless I am told by God. To extend that, we only know God to the extent that God has revealed himself. I have often stated sarcastically to people who think they know me "You only know what I choose to let you know." I know that statement is overly cocky and I don't use it anymore. I think if God were to speak directly to me, he would say somethng like, "Where were you when I formed the foundations of the Earth?" or he might say "You only know what I choose to let you know about my nature?"

[Kyle Borger]

I get that. I don't know if I am right. But as I read scripture and as I see God as He interacted with His children, what I said makes sense. What if God doesn't work this way? Will I lose my faith? No. God is God and I know He exists and as such my failure to understand is not going to change my love and devotion towards God. In fact God could do all sorts of things that I consider disagreeable and I would still love and be devoted to God because that is what I am created to do.

But in some way I think God is ok with me trying to understand just how his love for me works. God knows my heart and He knows my intentions.

In a way that is what I have been wondering. Is God giving me an insight? Is God allowing me to use my limited human knowledge and placing some of our limited human behaviors upon God in order to gain a better understanding of who God is? I certainly don't think I can fully understand God. But as I have been reading scripture I see a God interacting and changing course with His people. So it makes sense to me. I welcome dialogue that helps me challenge that thought so that I can have a better understanding.

[Dan Henderson]

Just for the record since I didn't post earlier I am not an Open Theist, I am a born again Christian, which, according to popular pseudo-science means I have a smaller hippocampus then the rest of you guys http://www.usatoday.com/news/religio...ain24_ST_N.htm

[Doug Ward]

Just for the record since I didn't post earlier I am not an Open Theist, I am a born again Christian, which, according to popular pseudo-science means I have a smaller hippocampus then the rest of you guys http://www.usatoday.com/news/religio...ain24_ST_N.htm

OK, but why are you camping with hippos? I have heard they are dangerous, so I hope you are with a small group.

[Dan Henderson]

OK, but why are you camping with hippos? I have heard they are dangerous, so I hope you are with a small group.

Because they are narrowminded and backwards just like me. It's more fun being narrowminded, you don't have to think as much.

[G R 'Scott' Cundiff]

A man who is put into sensory deprivation will go insane. I can't imagine God before creation but maybe God needs us to be complete. We know that God is love. If there was nothing else in existence except for God then He could only love himself. It seems to me that in order to complete God's existence as love that He had to create something outside of himself.

I think Keith Drury agrees and disagrees with you in his book "Common Ground." He writes:

God...does not need human beings because he is lonely or bored. There was perfect and complete love and fellowship in the Trinity itself long before creation....God created out of love. Creation resulted from God's sheer fatherly kindness....God is love. God loves. God created. He chose to make you and everything else because of his love...Creation gives God more to love. Creation is a loving act of grace.

[G R 'Scott' Cundiff]

One of my concerns about a "closed future" is that it feels to me as though God is a slave to the future. Since he already knows all that is going to happen he's left to helplessly watch history unfold. He can't intervene because he already has seen what is going to happen. He's trapped by destiny.

In the "open" approach, he's dynamic - interacting with his Creation, in absolute authority, able to intervene, responding to our prayers.

To me, it's a more powerful picture of God than that "he already knows everything" approach.

[Kyle Borger]

I think Keith Drury agrees and disagrees with you in his book "Common Ground." He writes:

I can certainly accept that. I clearly have no idea what God needs or doesn't need, but I can certainly be appreciative enough that He chose to create me to love.

[Rich Schmidt]

I think Keith Drury agrees and disagrees with you in his book "Common Ground." He writes:

Christian theologians through the ages have been clear that God didn't "need" to create humanity. Your quote is dead-on: Before creating us, God already existed as Triune, with the Father, Son, and Spirit in loving relationship.

[Dwayne Petry]

To me, it's a more powerful picture of God than the "he already knows everything" approach.

Scott, I'm just the opposite. Even though He foreknew, not predetermined, how things were going to turn out, He still desired a relationship with you and I enough to create mankind, "warts and all" (He did not create or cause the "warts", that came with giving mankind the choice to love Him or reject Him). As I see it, If GOD is omniscient, He is "OMNISCIENT". He looked fore ward and saw the choices that would be made, He saw who would believe, who would be evil, who would cry out to Him for guidance, how that person would respond to GOD's guidance, who would answer the call to full time ministry, song evangelism, teaching, etc. For example, He foreknew that Saul would be a persecutor of the Church, and He also foreknew that when brought to his knees before the Cross of Jesus Christ, he would respond as the Apostle Paul, and preach the Gospel to a lost world. GOD did not determine this outcome, He foreknew how Paul would react to the "call". He foreknew this and so much more that we cannot understand, and because of His Love, He STILL created us. I believe He is interacting with His Creation, He just has foreknowledge of all things.

To me, THAT is a more powerful picture of GOD!

This I do know. GOD so loved this poor lost sinner, that He gave His only Son, that by my believing in Him, I have forgiveness of sin and am a new creation. That the Holy Spirit working in me, allows for me to give testimony to the life changing power of our awesome GOD.

How He could Love me so, I do not know!

Scott, I enjoy the posts all of the "deep thinking" theological minds. As a layman, I do not have the theological training of many of you, but your posts cause me to research (google, read, etc.) the different views on NazNet.

THANKS!

[Rich Schmidt]

I just ran across this 2010 blog post/article by Roger Olson & thought some of you might be interested: "Why open theism doesn't even matter (very much)" - http://www.patheos.com/blogs/rogereo...ter-very-much/

[G R 'Scott' Cundiff]

This I do know. GOD so loved this poor lost sinner, that He gave His only Son, that by my believing in Him, I have forgiveness of sin and am a new creation. That the Holy Spirit working in me, allows for me to give testimony to the life changing power of our awesome GOD.

How He could Love me so, I do not know!

Scott, I enjoy the posts all of the "deep thinking" theological minds. As a layman, I do not have the theological training of many of you, but your posts cause me to research (google, read, etc.) the different views on NazNet.

THANKS!

Thank you for such an uplifting post! I also enjoy "thinking" exchanges like this. I learn new things and have fun trying to express my own thoughts better.

I know that some beliefs are precious to us and need our defense. I also know that many are more personal preference than "right" or "wrong." This Open Theism business is one of the latter. So long as both sides agree that God is God, no matter what the nature of time, we can enjoy thinking about the advantages and disadvantages of both sides of the discussion. It bothers me when I see some who act as though unless everyone agrees with them about stuff like this that they're bad people.

I'm so glad that one doesn't need to pass a theology exam to get into heaven.

[Hans Deventer]

Scott, I'm just the opposite.

Dwayne, I guess experiences differ. I vividly remember the first time I read "The God Who Risks" by John Sanders. At one point I literally got tears in my eyes. It was so amazing, so overwhelming to realise that the God who created the universe, who is so beyond anything I can comprehend, actually listens to his people and, would you believe it, even changes His mind at times, out of compassion for His creation.

I can never read 2 Kings 20 the same anymore. This was no God who was merely playing with his prophet and this king of Judah to show his sovereign will. This was for real.

In those days Hezekiah became sick and was at the point of death. The prophet Isaiah son of Amoz came to him, and said to him, ‘Thus says the Lord: Set your house in order, for you shall die; you shall not recover.’ Then Hezekiah turned his face to the wall and prayed to the Lord: ‘Remember now, O Lord, I implore you, how I have walked before you in faithfulness with a whole heart, and have done what is good in your sight.’ Hezekiah wept bitterly. Before Isaiah had gone out of the middle court, the word of the Lord came to him: ‘Turn back, and say to Hezekiah prince of my people, Thus says the Lord, the God of your ancestor David: I have heard your prayer, I have seen your tears; indeed, I will heal you; on the third day you shall go up to the house of the Lord. I will add fifteen years to your life. I will deliver you and this city out of the hand of the king of Assyria; I will defend this city for my own sake and for my servant David’s sake.’

This is my God, and I stand in awe for His majesty.

Now, I'm not asking you to believe as I do. I am asking to accept that one can believe this way, deeply respect God and in fact, think of Him more highly now.

[Hans Deventer]

I just ran across this 2010 blog post/article by Roger Olson & thought some of you might be interested: "Why open theism doesn't even matter (very much)" - http://www.patheos.com/blogs/rogereo...ter-very-much/

Thanks, Rich. I agree that it matters little for being evangelical. In a more private way, I think it does matter. At least, it does to me. It both brought God closer to me and gave me more respect for Him. I love Him more, and I would consider that to be a good thing, and not entirely irrelevant.

[Larry Parsons]

One does not have to be a "fundie" to believe so. I actually also believe God knows everything there is to know.

Couldn't God choose not to know everything?
Thanks
Larry

[Dan Henderson]

Couldn't God choose not to know everything?
Thanks
Larry

All of these Open Theology questions reminds me of the grade school question (because I was first asked the question in grade school by a peer) Can God make an immoveable object, and if so, can He move it? To which me, the 5th grade PK responded, almost immediately, Why does that matter?

[Larry Parsons]

Some of you have been talking about Time. there are people who believe that God doesn’t keep time as we do. They say that God is above time. A day is like thousand years and thousand years is like day to God if that is true then God can’t tell time as we do. But if God want communicate with with us then has the same calendar. Right? If God doesn't keep time as we do then the statement “at Hand” doesn’t mean a thing. This post my not fit here but as read through this thread about time I thought of this idea.
Thanks
Larry

[Larry Parsons]

All of these Open Theology questions reminds me of the grade school question (because I was first asked the question in grade school by a peer) Can God make an immoveable object, and if so, can He move it? To which me, the 5th grade PK responded, almost immediately, Why does that matter?

I don't think God real care what I will be eating to tomorow for lunch or how many time I will use the bathroom. Detail like these I believe God choose not to know them. I do believe that God has a certain goal that he has his eye on and one day it will be accomplish.
Thanks
Larry

[Steven Martinez]

My biggest problem with process theology and open theology is the need to start with theodicy (the existence of evil/suffering). My main problem with this approach is that it starts with the middle of the story with little consideration with the beginning and end of the story. God created a good creation and God will recreate a good creation. God wins, love wins and those with God wins. At the same time process has given us the concept of the God who suffers with us which, as Hans has said, has greatly drawn me closer to God. I guess I am more fascinated with how much of the future God reveals to God's people rather than how much of the future God knows. Because at the end of the day, I will only know what God knows by how much God reveals to me. So if God does not know something, I have no way of knowing it anyway.

As far as theologians, I think every church would benefit having a resident theologian. A wise preacher should never fear theology nor should a wise Christian. I am reminded that Paul went away for a period of time to learn about the faith before he journeyed around the world. At the same time, a solid preacher should never do his/her homework from the pulpit nor should they declare that "good preaching" as a cure all for inept study. Benny Hinn and the TBN preachers can draw in crowds with their personal charisma and speaking styles but I think we can all agree that what they preach is something completely different than the Gospel of Christ. I believe that if preaching by itself was more important than a correct discourse on God than God would have had Paul write more sermons and less theology in his letters. How many actual sermons do we have recorded in the Bible?

[Dan Henderson]

3 words -- Uncle Buddy Robinson

[Dan Henderson]

Doug, I just realized that we agree on a statement: "good theologians are few and far between." I just want to point out the plethora of persons we have purporting to be phelologians, uh, I mean, Theologians.

[Gina Stevenson]

I can certainly accept that. I clearly have no idea what God needs or doesn't need, but I can certainly be appreciative enough that He chose to create me to love.

Have to get some more lyrics up somewhere, as we have some related to this {God "needing" tho' only by His choice}, Kyle.

3 words -- Uncle Buddy Robinson

3 more -- Grandma's 33-1/3RPM LP

{have yet to hear it tho' have had it for years}

[Steven Martinez]

3 words -- Uncle Buddy Robinson

Uncle Buddy did go to college for 4 years and while he was not known as an intellectual that does not mean that he was not a theologian. Often the greatest theologians in the church are never seen working on their gift. It is often the gift that goes unnoticed, is highly criticized and yet the vast majority of our greatest preachers are indebted to their work while they do their weekly sermon preps.