Do we beleive in prayer?.....what do we beleive in prayer?

[Ian Gentles]

I beleive in prayer...but what do I beleive in prayer? This question was raised in coversation with a minister this evening.
What are we to expect, hope for, through prayer?
We agreed that the prayer meeting is least attended in a church week, not because people dont beleive in prayer...they kinda do, but arent sure how or what they should beleive about it.
Is their need of a revival of a theology of prayer in our churches? If soo, what would that theology look, sound, like?
How do we teach prayer? encourage others to do it? Surely we can see that reason prayer meetings are badly attended is because prayer is unexciting to many beleivers. We are excited about worship songs, certain teachers, etc etc, but where is our excitment for prayer?
What is our theology of prayer? How do we get folks excited about prayer? the prayer meeting?
Over to you folks, be interested in your thoughts.

[Susan Unger]

When we are desperate for God, our prayer life increases. The more desperate, the more we pray. Yes, we need a revival of prayer but that is because we need a revival of desperation for God. Also, the more Holy Spirit filled the prayer meetings are, the less boring they are. I'm looking forward to tonight's prayer meeting cuz I know that we will be meeting God in prayer.

[Ian Gentles]

When we are desperate for God, our prayer life increases. The more desperate, the more we pray. Yes, we need a revival of prayer but that is because we need a revival of desperation for God. Also, the more Holy Spirit filled the prayer meetings are, the less boring they are. I'm looking forward to tonight's prayer meeting cuz I know that we will be meeting God in prayer.

Agree with everything you say, but how do we teach, enthuse, the people in the pew about prayer?

[John Kennedy]

I definitely believe that prayer changes things - most of the time, along with and before other things, it changes the person offering the prayer.

[Susan Unger]

Agree with everything you say, but how do we teach, enthuse, the people in the pew about prayer?

I would say we have to model a life of prayer, talk about times we've had in prayer, pray for people to want to become people of prayer and find others [may be just one other] to join with you in praying at church in a prayer time/meeting/service.

[Jonathan Hooker]

Boy, We recently had Dan Bohi in our city for a couple of revival services and then the following week had an encounter (part of the master's plan curriculum) and our church saw some mighty works of God through our prayers. Dan Bohi challenged every person with the fact that if you take all the miracles out of the gospels and acts you would be taking over 40% of them out of the Bible. We need to be praying as though our prayers are being answered and that God wants to answer them in big ways in order to show His glory manifest through us. Through these two weekends we saw 4 people radically and visibly healed from physical ailments through our prayers along with many who were healed from addictions, past hurts, etc. We have also seen many people come to know the Lord for the first time and many recommit their lives to him. Sometimes I wonder if we have it backwards. If we would lead our congregations to a place where they are truly completely dead to self and alive in Christ (the encounter is a great tool for this), when they see the changes in their life because of Christ, prayer will come naturally. And it will be powerful... As our church has and is seeing...

[Ian Gentles]

I'm thinking, how do we teach prayer? Have we a theology of prayer? Its good we are encouraged to pray, but for many, if we are truthfull, in our churches, its a choir. What ways, teaching, can we use to enthuse people about prayer, the prayer meeting? Sadly, in most places, the prayer meeting is the least attended.

[Pete Vecchi]

Do I believe in prayer? Absolutely! Are we supposed to pray? Absolutely! I just have a difficult time knowing just what happens when we pray. Do we really change God's mind about things? I have a difficult time with that concept, because to the best of my understanding, God knows best, and wants what is best. At the same time, He has purposes.

The Bible is clear that The Father loves the Son, and the Son loves the Father, but even when Jesus prayed in Gethsemene that the cup would be taken from Him, He followed that with the words to the Father, "Nevertheless, Your will, not mine, be done." Shortly thereafter, Jesus implied that He could ask the Father and that the Father would dispatch angels to rescue Him from His captors.

It seems to me that God knows what He wants, and the essence of prayer is to communicate with Him as a part of the way we conform our wills with His will.

At the same time, I believe that there are times when God will "reluctantly" give people what they want, even though He knows it's not the best. As a Biblical example, I use the Israelites asking for a King. It wasn't what God wanted for them, God warned them what would happen if they had a king, but the people still insisted, so God gave them what they asked for. But I think that these are the exceptions rather than the rules

I have a more difficult time believing that our lack of prayer would keep something "bad" from happening, or that longer, more intense prayer will cause God to act in a way He wouldn't have otherwise acted, because then that starts drifting into the area of relying on human effort (the effort of praying) rather than on God's Grace.

True example here: I have a friend--a man whose Christianity I truly admire-- who really struggled a number of years ago because he knew a relatively young man who got sick. My friend said that he prayed and prayed for this man to be healed for a a considerable amount of time. But the man died. I remember talking to my friend not long after the man died, and my friend was spiritually struggling with the question, "What's the use of praying?"

True example here: My wife almost died in 1995; we were told afterwards that the doctors didn't expect her to live through the night. I am overjoyed to report that my wife was totally healed, and that many, many people prayed for her. Was it the prayers that made the difference, or was her survival something that God, in His wisdom and grace, knew that He wanted for His glory and/or for some specific purpose(s)? I often think about the fact that God knew I wouldn't have been able to handle raising 3 children on my own--including a then 1-week-old daughter. I also think about how my wife has been so instrumental in being a positive influence on all 3 of our children, and how without her, I likely would have been unable to adopt our eldest son.

One more Biblical example I often consider. I believe that God loves all of us the same. I believe that He loved the Apostle James ans much as He loved the Apostle Peter. But when Herod had each of those men arrested, one of them was executed, while the other one had an angel sent to help him escape from prison. Why? The Bible says that people were praying for Peter. But I don't think that the Bible's lack of specifically mentioning it means that people weren't praying for James; the Scriptures indicate that the church regularly prayed. Yet after Peter's escape, despite the fact that the people were praying for him, the people didn't believe the servant girl when she told them Peter was at the door (in other words, they didn't really think that Peter had escaped, despite the fact that they were praying for him).

The bottom line is that there's a lot I don't know about prayer. But the one thing I seem to have come to believe is that prayer changes me, and tends to bring my will more in line with God's will.

[Pete Vecchi]

I'm thinking, how do we teach prayer? Have we a theology of prayer? Its good we are encouraged to pray, but for many, if we are truthfull, in our churches, its a choir. What ways, teaching, can we use to enthuse people about prayer, the prayer meeting? Sadly, in most places, the prayer meeting is the least attended.

I don't have the book with me, and so I won't attempt to quote it because I'd get it wrong. But it was something I read probably 2 decades or more ago by Chuck Swindoll, and I think it was in his book titled Strengthening Your Grip. He mentioned a number of great saints in the faith, described their prayer habits that would likely put almost all of us to shame, and yet pointed out that every one of the people he mentioned felt that they were weak when it came to prayer. Swindoll went on to point out that it seems as though there is something about how we as Christians treat prayer that instead of making us feel as though we're benefiting from communicating with God, we feel guilty for not praying well enough.

It's as though we have made prayer a chore rather than a communication with our Creator and Sustainer.

Personally, I believe that while all Christians are supposed to pray, I also believe that some people have a spiritual gift of prayer. These people are the "prayer warriors" who seem to be able to spend the hours in prayer. I readily admit that I am not one of those people. My prayers are often in the way of "praying without ceasing"--being in an attitude of knowing that God is with me (and within me) wherever I am, and I can talk with Him at anytime in any place. I don't have to make it a long, drawn out formal prayer. It can be a sentence, or even an incomplete sentence.

Imagine being on a long drive (several hours) with your spouse, and no one else is in the vehicle with the two of you. Chances are that the two of you won't spend every moment of that several hour drive talking; there will likely be some gaps in the conversation. There might even be times when the one person who is driving is the only one awake in the vehicle. But out of the blue, one of spouses will suddenly say something and a conversation will begin. It may be a long conversation, or it might be short. But the most important thing is that in that vehicle, the two spouses are in each others' presence, and can say what they want to say and/or what needs to be said, they can be quiet, the non-driver can read or sleep, they can listen to music, whatever.

Personally, I think we might do well if we treated prayer more like that than worrying about how many minutes or hours a day we pray. It's a matter of keeping the ongoing line of communication with God open and active.

[Susan Unger]

Beautifully put, Pete.

[Michael Flowers]

This weekend the Illinois District held an event called "Prayer Encounter". It was about how we need to be asking God to work, not trying to do the work by our own methods and ideas. Rev. Corey Jones told us that when his struggling congregation began "praying down the glory of God" mighty things began to happen as God moved. We need prayer. We need to pray that God would be tangibly present with us, our congregations, our world. We believe in a God who answers the prayers of the faithful and it is time that we started being faithful and praying.

[Susan Unger]

This weekend the Illinois District held an event called "Prayer Encounter". It was about how we need to be asking God to work, not trying to do the work by our own methods and ideas. Rev. Corey Jones told us that when his struggling congregation began "praying down the glory of God" mighty things began to happen as God moved. We need prayer. We need to pray that God would be tangibly present with us, our congregations, our world. We believe in a God who answers the prayers of the faithful and it is time that we started being faithful and praying.

This is what I miss - being in an environment of dependance upon God and an environment of prayer.

[Pete Vecchi]

This weekend the Illinois District held an event called "Prayer Encounter". It was about how we need to be asking God to work, not trying to do the work by our own methods and ideas. Rev. Corey Jones told us that when his struggling congregation began "praying down the glory of God" mighty things began to happen as God moved. We need prayer. We need to pray that God would be tangibly present with us, our congregations, our world. We believe in a God who answers the prayers of the faithful and it is time that we started being faithful and praying.

I think this goes to the heart of Ian's original question (I hope he will correct me if I am wrong): Is this what we believe about prayer?

Do we really believe that if we pray long enough, hard enough, or in the right way (such as "praying down the glory of Gd) that this will cause God to act differently?

If that is the case, can we assume that as recorded in the Book of Acts, James was put to death but Peter was miraculously led out of prison because other people were praying harder or better for Peter than they were for James?

At what point does our prayer become "work" or "human effort" rather than total dependence upon God and His grace?

I'm not asking these questions in an argumentative attitude, but rather to hear what other people think about the issue.

[Michael Flowers]

If we don't believe that God will act in response to our prayers then there is no reason for us to ask God for anything, because his actions are already determined. Let me explain what I meant (and what Corey meant) by "praying down the glory of God." We need to ask God to be present with us in a real way, in the way that he was present for the Israelites in Exodus when his glory went before them and protected them.

This is what we believe about prayer, however, we have chosen to ignore it in order to do programing. We have sought human experience in worship rather than an experience of God.

[Michael Flowers]

An interesting thing to note is that we have no article or statement in the Manual regarding prayer. Perhaps this is something that should be changed.

[Benjamin Burch]

If we don't believe that God will act in response to our prayers then there is no reason for us to ask God for anything, because his actions are already determined. Let me explain what I meant (and what Corey meant) by "praying down the glory of God." We need to ask God to be present with us in a real way, in the way that he was present for the Israelites in Exodus when his glory went before them and protected them.

This is what we believe about prayer, however, we have chosen to ignore it in order to do programing. We have sought human experience in worship rather than an experience of God.

If only there were a place where God comes to us to be experienced.....

[Pete Vecchi]

If we don't believe that God will act in response to our prayers then there is no reason for us to ask God for anything, because his actions are already determined. Let me explain what I meant (and what Corey meant) by "praying down the glory of God." We need to ask God to be present with us in a real way, in the way that he was present for the Israelites in Exodus when his glory went before them and protected them.

This is what we believe about prayer, however, we have chosen to ignore it in order to do programing. We have sought human experience in worship rather than an experience of God.

This really goes back to what I said earlier in this thread about prayer--that it is primarily a communication with God that brings a person's will more in line with God's will. If this is what is meant by "praying down the glory of God" then I really don't disagree.

At the same time, how is this measured? Is it based on our human efforts? If we pray hard enough or long enough or loud enough, will God finally reveal His will to us? That's where my problem comes with some of the current understandings about prayer.

I remember a dear saint of God one time talking about a revival that was going on, and had been extended from the original schedule over several weeks. People were testifying about how God was at work in the services. I can't say what did or didn't happen, and I don't discount any of the testimonies, but I wasn't there, so I can't report first hand. But I do remember what this saint of God (who, by the way, experienced a significant physical healing during the revival) said about the revival. It was something along the lines of that revival would come to other places and other people if they were willing to "pay the price." I don't remember his exact words, except for "pay the price." He was saying, in essence (because I spoke to him about it later) that people had to pray and pray and pray and then God would bring revival.

So, just how much prayer would be enough? Would one hour and 15 minutes fall just 5 minutes short of God's standard?

I keep coming back to the thought that if we truly believe that we are to rely on God's Grace, and God's grace alone, we should be very careful about insisting on a certain amount or type of human behavior (for instance, prayer) as a prerequisite for God to act.

[Michael Flowers]

God still acts in his own time. But you are definitely touching on one of the most thought provoking questions that I have considered personally as I have grown as a Christian. I wish I could give you a more definite answer. If you get a chance, I would encourage you to listen to the testimony of Corey Jones, pastor of Crossroads Tabernacle Church of the Nazarene in Fort Worth, TX. His church began praying for God's presence to fill that place and that God (not men) would bring people to the church seeking salvation and God honored their faithfulness (though it was not an immediate thing, they were at it for a few months before they saw fruit). That was 12 years ago and God is continuing to work in that congregation that was practically on its last breath before prayer became their focus.

[Pete Vecchi]

Just to reiterate, I absolutely believe in prayer. I just have come t believe that "praying the glory down" is more a matter of allowing God to have control of the direction of my will--bringing my will into conformity with His. In many ways, Michael, I think you and I are expressing the same things.

[Michael Flowers]

Well, actually, its more than just the consecration of our will to God, its about truly letting him inhabit us. Giving more than just our heart but our very lives. Its not about us, its about him. But yes, we are probably expressing the same/similar thing in our own ways.

[Susan Unger]

If we don't believe that God will act in response to our prayers then there is no reason for us to ask God for anything, because his actions are already determined. Let me explain what I meant (and what Corey meant) by "praying down the glory of God." We need to ask God to be present with us in a real way, in the way that he was present for the Israelites in Exodus when his glory went before them and protected them.

This is what we believe about prayer, however, we have chosen to ignore it in order to do programing. We have sought human experience in worship rather than an experience of God.

Amen!

[Susan Unger]

If you get a chance, I would encourage you to listen to the testimony of Corey Jones, pastor of Crossroads Tabernacle Church of the Nazarene in Fort Worth, TX. His church began praying for God's presence to fill that place and that God (not men) would bring people to the church seeking salvation and God honored their faithfulness (though it was not an immediate thing, they were at it for a few months before they saw fruit). That was 12 years ago and God is continuing to work in that congregation that was practically on its last breath before prayer became their focus.

Amen! This is my little prayer group's focus at my church too.

[Pete Vecchi]

So, what happens when we pray--specifically when we pray for another person?

Yesterday, I spoke with an elderly man whom I don't know well at all, but he was sharing with me probably because he knows me to be a pastor and he obviously just wanted someone to listen to him. The general situation is that he and his wife were married in the 1990's--the second marriage for both of them. I don't know all of the details (nor would I share them if I did), but sometime over the past several months, his wife was apparently diagnosed with a fatal illness, and around the same time the wife's daughter brought her mom in to live in her (the daughter's) home, and now won't let the husband see her mom. The daughter has taken over as her mom's power of attorney, and has things now set up in such a way that the husband can't even get medical information on his wife from the doctors.

(Before I go on, I'm sure there's another side to this story, but I haven't been told it; I can only go with what I know).

Bottom line is that this man is hurting. I could tell. But the other thing is that there's absolutely nothing I can do to change his circumstances or those of his wife. I'm not an attorney, so the only legal counsel I can give is that perhaps he should speak to an attorney (which he's already doing). But to bring this story to the subject of this thread, I said I'd pray for he and his wife and the entire situation.

Since I talked to him yesterday, I've sensed within my spirit a number of times the need to take a few moments and pray for them. So I have done that.

But I don't know what to pray for. Do I pray for physical healing of the wife? Do I pray for fire to come down from heaven to consume the wife's daughter? Do I pray for the wife to be able to come back home with her husband? Do I know that there's absolutely no good reason why the daughter is keeping her mom's husband from knowing anything about the mom's condition? I don't know. So I just have prayed for them by name, asking God to take care of them, grant them His comfort and peace, and to be in the situations in which they're dealing.

Well, that all sounds good. But am I then supposed to think that if I don't pray these things, that God won't take care of them? If God wants to grant them His comfort and peace, will He withhold it if I fail to pray? In other words, is the comfort and peace of God in their lives dependent on whether or not I pray?

I don't know.

All I know is that as I've been prompted in my spirit to pray, I have prayed.

[Kami Tuenning]

I am a fairly mature praying person, although I have never leaned toward flowery words or bold ejaculations commanding the Spirit of God to encamp us, I do pray often with others. I was taught that formal; that is written, prayers are only spoken by people whom really don't have a living relationship with God and should be disregarded as "traditions of men".

Then, I discovered written prayers.

Elisabeth Elliot included prayers of the great saints and other holy men and women in her devotional life. As astute as she was with language, she often found that the recorded hearts cry of a long-deceased saint more succinctly conveyed her own deepest thoughts and words than she could muster in prayer. I too have discovered that reading a prayer, or two or three, will make me aware of certain things I had stuffed away or simply forgotten to bring before God in prayer. Just this morning, I found myself weeping immensely as I prayed the words spoken by a stranger which had been recorded in my small volume of the Family Prayer Book. This short formal pray, led to another until I found myself fully engaged in personal prayer with my LORD.

For "beginners" at prayer, it is much like helping a child develop language. Their words of expressions must be "framed" into cognitively complete sentences until they have the language or the tools to communicate independently. Whether it is a new student of prayer or a mature christian at a desert place, formal, written prayers are a gift to God's people and will "bring down" The Holy Spirit and illicit as valid of a conversation with GOD as would any spontaneous prayer.

As to what do I believe about prayer? I believe just as Jesus modeled for us, prayer is a direct conversation with GOD. As Jesus prayed asking The Father to take this cup from him, we too cry out for mercy, for help, for healing. Does GOD change HIS mind? Not so sure that he changes HIS mind, as provides a means of escape from the snares of our sin nature and the evil that prevails for those who call upon HIM. I have seen instantaneous, unexplainable answers to prayer on several occasions. I would rather just keep praying and believing and leave the hammering out of the theology of prayer to others.

I think certain churches scare away the people by making prayer seem as though it were an expressive art for only the most articulate and mature christian. Spontaneous prayer is coveted and considered the only "authentic" way to pray. While I understand personal, spontaneous prayer should be a natural way of life for the believer, it is not the only way to be in united in dialogue with GOD.

[Kami Tuenning]

Agree with everything you say, but how do we teach, enthuse, the people in the pew about prayer?

Rather than scheduling a prayer service, you could open the church for a few hours each week so that people could come and go. When one of our daughters attended a large religious university, my husband and I would often sneak to the weekly Sunday night midnight service. It was dark, candle-lit and very private. Although a complete service took place, there were many people who came and went, kneeled in back places praying, sitting, reflecting (this was a medical school university, lots of pressure). There were a lot of prayers being lifted up and no one was at the mic.

I always felt more like an observer at most evangelical prayer meetings than a participant and I was a pastor's wife!! How do you think six-pack Joe feels?! LOL! Make prayer gatherings seem like a natural thing that doesn't require a "meeting".