Is this belief a possibility in the Church of the Nazarene?

[Benjamin Burch]

I think some might find this video helpful:



Met. Ware gives a great answer to the question: Are you saved?

He answers saying: I trust that, by God's grace, by the divine compassion and mercy, I am being saved. But! Up until the gates of death I must repent.

This got me thinking about the typical understanding of salvation I have found in the Early Church fathers, the Orthodox, the Catholic, and some Anglican Churches, which Metropolitan Ware has summed up nicely. However, I was thinking of it in terms of an interpretation of the Apostles' Creed which I believe articulates what many traditions think/hear when they recite this in Baptisms, Confirmations, and Re-Affirmations.

I trust that I am being saved by the Grace and mercy of

God,the Father almighty,
Creator of heaven and earth,

made manifest in

Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died and was buried;
he descended into hell;
on the third day he rose again from the dead;
he ascended into heaven,
and is seated at the right hand of God the Father almighty;
from there he will come to judge the living and the dead.

and given to us by

the Holy Spirit,

through its mediator

the holy catholic Church,

and her sacraments, especially

the communion

which we share with all

of [the] saints,

through which we receive

the forgiveness of sins

So that I will receive the

the resurrection of the body,

and share in

life everlasting. Amen.

My question is simply this: Is this view of salvation possible in the Church of the Nazarene? Is this a possible reading of the Apostles' Creed as you all articulate the mystery of our salvation?

[David Graham]

It's been some time since I was a Nazarene, but I think that I always believed this, and though I can't speak for others ,I suspect others that I know who are still in the church believe this as well. It is sound FOUNDATIONAL theological belief.

We used to say something like this:
I am Saved
I am being saved
I will be saved

[Randy Wise]

Are you saved? Are you a Christian?

Not that I get asked those questions but since there is such diversity in what Christians state I have decided to begin with the answer "I have the Spirit of Christ in me"

Randy

[Jim Chabot]

Are you saved? Are you a Christian?

Not that I get asked those questions but since there is such diversity in what Christians state I have decided to begin with the answer "I have the Spirit of Christ in me"

Randy

May I also add, that we are sealed by His Spirit unto the day of redemption.

[Jim Chabot]

To be honest Ben, I don't know if this a possible view within the CoTN. I've never looked.

For me, I have specifically rejected this view upon my conversion. For me, I believe that this view casts God in a very infavorable light. I cannot see Him in this way.

This is the God who loves us enough to give His only Son? This is the God who earnestly desires an eternal loving relationship with us?

I'm not discounting how this may work for you Ben, however I have been saved from this and I am filled with joy to have been so furtunate to come to that God loves me!

[Jonathan Hooker]

I am curious as to how this might relate to the discussion...

Romans 6:8-23 (bear with me... I have a thought about all this...)
8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, [f]is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, 13 and do not go on presenting [g]the members of your body to sin as [h]instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as [i]instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! 16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin [j]resulting in death, or of obedience [k]resulting in righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that [l]though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, [m]resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, [n]resulting in sanctification.
20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 Therefore what [o]benefit were you then [p]deriving [q]from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death. 22 But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you [r]derive your [s]benefit, [t]resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

In my way of thinking I interpreted this as our salvation happens when we die with Christ which the outcome is our sanctification and ultimately eternal life through Christ. This passage indicates to me that we are saved once for our sins and that happened years ago on the cross. Our response to that salvation is what determines our ultimate destination (heaven or hell). Will we remain slaves to sin or slaves to righteousness? Something I have struggled with up till recently is the idea that I have to be continually saved from my sins. I recently had a moment where I truly believe Christ revealed this to me that He died for my sins to take them as his own. Once I believed in him I no longer had to carry those past regrets or failures because He was for me. When He says that he forgives us and has cast our sins as far as the east is from the west, He did that to remove our sins completely from us. We are no longer held responsible for them. We then have the responsibility to be slaves to righteousness and to live every day in submission to our Saviour. Does He need to forgive us multiple times for our sins? I don't think so... He died once and for all sins throughout history and the future. The reason we are kept out of Heaven is not because sin is covered by the blood, it is because we are still living as slaves to sin. No one can serve two masters, either he will love the one and hate the other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other. Black and white... At least in my thought process... What do you think?

[Jim Chabot]

It's been some time since I was a Nazarene, but I think that I always believed this, and though I can't speak for others ,I suspect others that I know who are still in the church believe this as well. It is sound FOUNDATIONAL theological belief.

We used to say something like this:
I am Saved
I am being saved
I will be saved

Dave; I think that it was Greathouse who said;

I am Sanctified
I am being Sanctified
I will be Sanctified

But I'm willing to be wrong, we may have used the words "saved" as well or instead. I don't remember hearing this though, I think that I might have chafed against it if I did.

[Jim Chabot]

I am curious as to how this might relate to the discussion...

Romans 6:8-23 (bear with me... I have a thought about all this...)
8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, [f]is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, 13 and do not go on presenting [g]the members of your body to sin as [h]instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as [i]instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! 16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin [j]resulting in death, or of obedience [k]resulting in righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that [l]though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, [m]resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, [n]resulting in sanctification.
20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 Therefore what [o]benefit were you then [p]deriving [q]from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death. 22 But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you [r]derive your [s]benefit, [t]resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

In my way of thinking I interpreted this as our salvation happens when we die with Christ which the outcome is our sanctification and ultimately eternal life through Christ. This passage indicates to me that we are saved once for our sins and that happened years ago on the cross. Our response to that salvation is what determines our ultimate destination (heaven or hell). Will we remain slaves to sin or slaves to righteousness? Something I have struggled with up till recently is the idea that I have to be continually saved from my sins. I recently had a moment where I truly believe Christ revealed this to me that He died for my sins to take them as his own. Once I believed in him I no longer had to carry those past regrets or failures because He was for me. When He says that he forgives us and has cast our sins as far as the east is from the west, He did that to remove our sins completely from us. We are no longer held responsible for them. We then have the responsibility to be slaves to righteousness and to live every day in submission to our Saviour. Does He need to forgive us multiple times for our sins? I don't think so... He died once and for all sins throughout history and the future. The reason we are kept out of Heaven is not because sin is covered by the blood, it is because we are still living as slaves to sin. No one can serve two masters, either he will love the one and hate the other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other. Black and white... At least in my thought process... What do you think?

I agree Jonathan, and thank you for posting the passages from Romans 6, It is uplifting to read them to realize that we may boldly approach the throne of grace, He calls us friend!

[Benjamin Burch]

It's been some time since I was a Nazarene, but I think that I always believed this, and though I can't speak for others ,I suspect others that I know who are still in the church believe this as well. It is sound FOUNDATIONAL theological belief.

We used to say something like this:
I am Saved
I am being saved
I will be saved

And I myself, and I believe Metropolitan Ware, would agree here. This is generally the fuller expression of the idea.

I am curious as to how this might relate to the discussion...

In my way of thinking I interpreted this as our salvation happens when we die with Christ which the outcome is our sanctification and ultimately eternal life through Christ. This passage indicates to me that we are saved once for our sins and that happened years ago on the cross. Our response to that salvation is what determines our ultimate destination (heaven or hell). Will we remain slaves to sin or slaves to righteousness? Something I have struggled with up till recently is the idea that I have to be continually saved from my sins. I recently had a moment where I truly believe Christ revealed this to me that He died for my sins to take them as his own. Once I believed in him I no longer had to carry those past regrets or failures because He was for me. When He says that he forgives us and has cast our sins as far as the east is from the west, He did that to remove our sins completely from us. We are no longer held responsible for them. We then have the responsibility to be slaves to righteousness and to live every day in submission to our Saviour. Does He need to forgive us multiple times for our sins? I don't think so... He died once and for all sins throughout history and the future. The reason we are kept out of Heaven is not because sin is covered by the blood, it is because we are still living as slaves to sin. No one can serve two masters, either he will love the one and hate the other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other. Black and white... At least in my thought process... What do you think?

I've said in another thread:

For Paul and the majority of the NT, as well as the majority of the Church's history, Baptism is the means of grace by which we move from death to life, from the World to the Body of Christ. It was the means of grace by which our former body of sin was put to death and we were raised to newness of life in the power of Christ's resurrection.

But I would say that for Paul it is never a finished project until death:

And all of us, with unveiled faces, seeing the glory of the Lord as though reflected in a mirror, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another; for this comes from the Lord, the Spirit.

It is always a process of further transformation, of being saved.

Lastly, all along this process one must repent and can leave this faith. One is never "saved" finally until death. As Fr. Hopko, dean of St. Vladimir's Orthodox Seminary for many years said, "our journey is a dance of repentance back and forth in God's salvation." Not that we are continually losing our salvation, but that we are continually repenting and continually being saved.

I "have been saved" is true of what Christ has done on the cross and we can point to a time when we were brought into union with it experienced both in Baptism as well as our partaking of the Eucharist, but this process doesn't end, and we're always being saved, always repenting.

Now, if anyone disagrees with me, that's fine! Again, my question is, is this a live option within the CotN?

[Hans Deventer]

Ben, do I understand this says that the communion of the saints is a sacrament?

[Benjamin Burch]

Ben, do I understand this says that the communion of the saints is a sacrament?

Yes! Whether the creed in its original form intended this or not is really hard to know. However, functionally, within the sacramental theologies of the Orthodox and Catholic Churches (as well as all I can find from the Early Church and also widely accepted in the Anglican Churches), I would say it means exactly this. The Sacrament can go by many names:

Eucharist
Breaking of Bread
Lord's Supper
Memorial
Sacrifice
Mass
Liturgy
Communion

Holy Communion, because by this sacrament we unite ourselves to Christ, who makes us sharers in his Body and Blood to form a single body... the first meaning of the phrase "communion of saints" in the Apostles' Creed

In the Holy Communion we are united to Christ's Body and made into one Body and it is in this practice that we share in communion with all of the saints, past, present, and future.

So, as always, the Holy Communion is a sacrament! But it is one in which we are made one with and share with all of the saints of God, past, present, and future.

Due to the often memorialist tendencies in evangelicalism in general and the CotN in particular, the tendency is to hear the "communion" in "communion of saints" and "communion" at our communion tables as different things. However, they are one in the same in every historical tradition that I know of.

In short, "the communion of saints" is the same communion that your church celebrates as a sacrament every month.

[Susan Unger]

I've had discussions before about this with my UMC friends. I've told them that I don't see this happening in the CotN. In fact, this is the first time I have seen it discussed in a Nazarene context.

[Dale Cozby]

I heard a preacher on the radio today sayng salvation is Only a crisis event but sanctification is only a progressive set of actions thereafter.
I am sure every combination of crisis and progression can be found inside the church.
The CotN accepts a broad view of God's grace and means in my opinion.
Salvation as progressive and as crisis and sanctification as progressive and crisis are often describe in the testimonies I have heard in the CotN growing up and now as well.

[John Kennedy]

Yes! Whether the creed in its original form intended this or not is really hard to know. However, functionally, within the sacramental theologies of the Orthodox and Catholic Churches (as well as all I can find from the Early Church and also widely accepted in the Anglican Churches), I would say it means exactly this. The Sacrament can go by many names:

Eucharist
Breaking of Bread
Lord's Supper
Memorial
Sacrifice
Mass
Liturgy
Communion



In the Holy Communion we are united to Christ's Body and made into one Body and it is in this practice that we share in communion with all of the saints, past, present, and future.

So, as always, the Holy Communion is a sacrament! But it is one in which we are made one with and share with all of the saints of God, past, present, and future.

Due to the often memorialist tendencies in evangelicalism in general and the CotN in particular, the tendency is to hear the "communion" in "communion of saints" and "communion" at our communion tables as different things. However, they are one in the same in every historical tradition that I know of.

In short, "the communion of saints" is the same communion that your church celebrates as a sacrament every month.

Last week I dipped the bread in the cup as a part of the sacrament of holy communion. I participated in an outward sign of an inward grace - what I have always understood to be the definition of a sacrament.

A week or so ago I commented, along with others, on the death of Bob Manley, I man I had known as a colleague of my parents, years ago. At that time I said that when I thought of Bob and my parents and others of that generation, it seemed like they were there in the room with me and the truth of that phrase in the Apostles' Creed came to mind: "I believe in the communion of saints....."

To me, the vivid memories of 'the saints' were as tangible as the bread and the cup into which it was dipped.

Pardon me for quoting what I believe to be a profound theological statement from a hymn: "Yet she on earth hath union with God, the Three in One, and mystic sweet communion with those whose rest is won...." (The Church's One Foundation)

[Greg Farra]

No pardon needed for quoting that hymn!

[David Graham]

Dave; I think that it was Greathouse who said;

I am Sanctified
I am being Sanctified
I will be Sanctified

But I'm willing to be wrong, we may have used the words "saved" as well or instead. I don't remember hearing this though, I think that I might have chafed against it if I did.

Yes Jim, I've heard those terms used as well, yet there is an interconnectedness between them. Through being "saved" we as "Wesleyans" believe that God does something wonderful in us, and so we believe that we are "sanctified" or made holy as well. (i.e. sins forgiven and esponged from our souls) Yet, as the whole process sancitification is dynamic so also is salvation as we are progressively "saved" from the inner frailties of our own natures through inner transformation. The ultimate transformation occuring of course when we pass from this life to the next and are no longer subject to the weaknesses of our lives in the physical body, thus receiving a complete salvation from temptation, moral weakness and death. However, in Heaven (or on the New Earth) I suspect, the process of sanctification will continue forever; not because our souls are in any way tainted, but that we will be able always learn new ways to become more like Christ.

This is IMHO a better way of looking at salvation than the rather limited approach of our Calvinistic friends who see salvation more in Judicial terms: i.e. "simply being declared not guilty!" Certainly that is true, but there is an inner transforming reality that takes place at the same time. Our gracious and loving God never leaves us as we are..........

[Randy Wise]

Take heart in the Lord's faithfulness and be secure in your salvation which was freely given. The enemy uses fear as a wedge. But ask yourself this if you are having fears. Are you seeking to divorce the Lord? Hopefully that answer is "no". The Lord will always remain faithful. The Lord never drives away those that the Father gives Him. No power can snatch you from the Lords hands. Only you can deny the Lord and leave (seeking a divorce from God) So take heart as is written, ..But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God." Your past sins have been forgiven. Love is not made perfect in fear. Do not be afraid.

The old system that continues to remind one of sin and offered continued sacrifice that couldn't take away sin and change the believer has been done away. If you need a reminder then know "The Lord loves you and your past sins have been forgiven you for those of you that have come to Christ by faith" and hopefully you are not seeking a divorce from that relationship.

Randy

[Hans Deventer]

My question is simply this: Is this view of salvation possible in the Church of the Nazarene?

As I hear the Metropolitan speak, I would say yes. Good stuff. I'm sure the more holy you are, the more you realise you have barely begun to repent. But then Jesus comes!

[Benjamin Burch]

Last week I dipped the bread in the cup as a part of the sacrament of holy communion. I participated in an outward sign of an inward grace - what I have always understood to be the definition of a sacrament.

A week or so ago I commented, along with others, on the death of Bob Manley, I man I had known as a colleague of my parents, years ago. At that time I said that when I thought of Bob and my parents and others of that generation, it seemed like they were there in the room with me and the truth of that phrase in the Apostles' Creed came to mind: "I believe in the communion of saints....."

To me, the vivid memories of 'the saints' were as tangible as the bread and the cup into which it was dipped.

Pardon me for quoting what I believe to be a profound theological statement from a hymn: "Yet she on earth hath union with God, the Three in One, and mystic sweet communion with those whose rest is won...." (The Church's One Foundation)

I'm very sad to hear Bob Manley has passed away. I stayed with him just over a year ago and he was the most gracious host I've ever stayed with. The man was full of the Spirit and as kind a man as there ever was. I know he has found rest and peace in our savior until we meet again in resurrection.

[Paul DeBaufer]

I would hope that this belief is possible within the CotN.

The other week I was facilitating a class based on 24 Hours That Changed the World by Adam Hamilton (a UMC pastor/teacher). The week I led was on the torture and crucifixion of Christ. The question, What is the significance of the cross your life? Several of the small group didn't really see a significance. "I was saved by it, but that was a long time ago," were the type of answer given. Just prior to that I had been over on the Current Events forum discussing the World of Trayvon Martin and Dr. Oliver Phillips post and blog article. I had to realize that I have harbored some remnant racism. So during the class I confessed this much in the same way I made the confession in the forum. For me I needed saving from bondage to the vestigial racism within, so the cross was particularly significant at that time, for me. Christ may well have broken all those bonds all at once, yet I was still trapped, I still needed to enter into the freedom. I discover areas in which I have yet to enter into the proffered salvation, I continually find new things for which I need to repent. In this light I think that I am continually being saved. Not that Christ is having to act again and again, but that I have to enter into His act of salvation.

Personally I think your inclusion into the Apostles' Creed fits and brings the creed to fuller life.

[Ryan Scott]

I think we often confuse what is necessary for salvation (frankly, its a very low bar) and what is required to be in right relationship with God.

Will there be people ultimately saved who are not in right relationship with God - I suspect so, in light of God's mercy, but that's no reason to test the theory.

[Dale Cozby]

I'm sure the more holy you are, the more you realise you have barely begun to repent. But then Jesus comes!

If holiness is only a progressive set of actions and attitudes then this might be right.
Some see holiness as an act of grace imparted in an instant in time. Like flipping on a light. A soul becomes aware of God's love and by faith receives the grace of God in an instant making them sanctified. Salvation is when we, by God's grace, believe and accept God's love for us and sanctification is when we, by faith and God's grace given, come to accept and believe we can truly love God and others as Jesus loved us.

If holiness is being in an attitude of a loving state, willing to sacrifice all even if not knowing how, then there is a point where the mind and soul enters a state holiness by God's grace.

I understand repentence as a changing of the mind/soul from one belief to another. If we surrender all of our self to God and ask for Him to sanctify us wholly then we proceed by faith to receive a perfected heart and from there move on to more mature actions and enlighenments in keeping with that holiness we already possess.

Communion is, in keeping with our faith, by God's grace, our participation and acknowledgment we are saved by His sacrifice and are sanctified and made holy as we confess our dependence on Him. While repentence is sometimes part of what we do during communion: what happens when there is nothing to repent, nothing we are aware of that needs to be changed in our actions or thoughts and knowing our heart is right before God? Perhaps that is another reason I am Nazarene.

I welcome your thoughts.

[Hans Deventer]

Communion is, in keeping with our faith, by God's grace, our participation and acknowledgment we are saved by His sacrifice and are sanctified and made holy as we confess our dependence on Him. While repentence is sometimes part of what we do during communion: what happens when there is nothing to repent, nothing we are aware of that needs to be changed in our actions or thoughts and knowing our heart is right before God?

Then we stop praying the Lord's prayer and if, when we see Him, He'll ever ask why, we'll tell Him we didn't need to anymore.

I guess I'm a Nazarene because Wesley made abundantly clear that this makes no sense. I've never been a Nazarene because of what the AHM taught.

[Dennis M. Scott]

Dave; I think that it was Greathouse who said;

I am Sanctified
I am being Sanctified
I will be Sanctified

But I'm willing to be wrong, we may have used the words "saved" as well or instead. I don't remember hearing this though, I think that I might have chafed against it if I did.

Dr. Greathouse talked about using the words "saved" and/or "sanctified" in that trilogy, and even using them interchangeably. He went on to say that among Nazarenes it probably would be for a few decades confusing.

Being saved is part of the Lord's sanctifying us, and sanctification is part of his saving us. I guess Nazarenes' testifying to being "saved and sanctified" is more accurate than most have known, even though most meant the words to mean something else, and perhaps less, than Dr. Greathouse.

It was my privilege to have Dr. Greathouse in class for Romans, and Wesleyan Theology the semester just prior to his being elected GS. That was hardly the last time he lectured on this concept, however. He's probably still explaining it in his eternal retirement.

[Glenn Messer]

I haven't read all of the comments (short on time right now - but the title got my attention), but I think I could be comfortable declaring something like the following:

By God's mercy, I am saved. In God's grace, I continue to be saved. My faith looks forward to a 'time' when all that I know and value in Christ will be forever secure.

That's not meant to be a theological statement and it may make sense only to me, but it is basic to my life in Christ.

[Dale Cozby]

Then we stop praying the Lord's prayer and if, when we see Him, He'll ever ask why, we'll tell Him we didn't need to anymore.

I guess I'm a Nazarene because Wesley made abundantly clear that this makes no sense. I've never been a Nazarene because of what the AHM taught.

How often is repenting often enough? Do I spend all day everyday repenting? Do I repent daily at mass? is that often enough? repenting of what? how much changing of my mind, asking forgiveness do I need to do before God accepts me? How many times do I need to ask forgiveness for the sins of the past? when all is confessed and there is nothing left in mind body or soul and I am exhausted of thought do I still need to repent more, of not knowing what to repent of? Do I just need to keep repenting of being a human being?
Sorry i am just not following this perpetual breathing in breathing out type repenting moment by moment. Maybe our definitions of repent are much different and that is causing the issue here. Repent as verb or noun?

What exactly do you mean with the word "repent" do you mean asking forgiveness? how many times do i need to ask daily? hourly? should we be asking every waking moment? Am I sinning by just existing? If this is your definition of sin I disagree. If communion is repentence and we need to repent perpetually then we need to take communion perpetually, if this is so, then we are doomed to a life of failure and unrighteousness and we might as well give up repenting and just trust in God's grace....oh wait that is what i believe anyway.

Question: If a person never once takes communion, isn't baptised and never steps in a church can they be right before God anyway if they repent once? or odes it require a lifetime of repenting? Or is it impossible to be right before God? Is there any imputed or imparted righteousness?

Thanks.

[Paul DeBaufer]

How often is repenting often enough? Do I spend all day everyday repenting? Do I repent daily at mass? is that often enough? repenting of what? how much changing of my mind, asking forgiveness do I need to do before God accepts me? How many times do I need to ask forgiveness for the sins of the past? when all is confessed and there is nothing left in mind body or soul and I am exhausted of thought do I still need to repent more, of not knowing what to repent of? Do I just need to keep repenting of being a human being?
Sorry i am just not following this perpetual breathing in breathing out type repenting moment by moment. Maybe our definitions of repent are much different and that is causing the issue here. Repent as verb or noun?

What exactly do you mean with the word "repent" do you mean asking forgiveness? how many times do i need to ask daily? hourly? should we be asking every waking moment? Am I sinning by just existing? If this is your definition of sin I disagree. If communion is repentence and we need to repent perpetually then we need to take communion perpetually, if this is so, then we are doomed to a life of failure and unrighteousness and we might as well give up repenting and just trust in God's grace....oh wait that is what i believe anyway.

Question: If a person never once takes communion, isn't baptised and never steps in a church can they be right before God anyway if they repent once? or odes it require a lifetime of repenting? Or is it impossible to be right before God? Is there any imputed or imparted righteousness?

Thanks.

Hi Dale,

I don't think it is a matter of continual repenting until we've done it enough for God's acceptance. We all sin. I don't think that there is anyone who goes a week without committing some sin or another. I know I do. Everyone I know personally does. So, during the prayer of confession I deal with how I wasn't as loving as I should have been, ignored God, whatever. It isn't so much to appease God and gain His acceptance, I have that already. I think it is more for me, us. Like I mentioned in an earlier post I found a remnant of a sinful attitude and ask God for His help to free me from it. So it seems that repentance and confession is more for us, for our freedom to enter more fully into the abundant life He has for us here and now.

I do not think anyone here is suggesting that you need to repent of sins past for which you have already repented and turned away from. No need to freed from places you are no longer in bondage. I am really happy for you if you can thoroughly search yourself and find no sin, no place you have fallen short since your last repentance. I just don't think that most of us are that lucky, I certainly am not. I'd envy you but then I'd just have another thing for which I'd feel the need to repent.

[Benjamin Burch]

How often is repenting often enough?

Never.

Do I spend all day everyday repenting?

Yes! The whole of the Christian Life is one of repentance.

Do I repent daily at mass?

If possible, yes.

is that often enough?

No.

repenting of what?

Crucifying God.
What I did today.
What I did yesterday.
What I did the day before.
And the day before.
Etc.
And what I did not do today.
And yesteryda.
And the day before.
etc.

how much changing of my mind,

Until you have "the same mind that was in Christ Jesus" - Philippians 2

asking forgiveness do I need to do before God accepts me?

Last I checked, Jesus accepted us before we repented:

"Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.

How many times do I need to ask forgiveness for the sins of the past?

70x7

when all is confessed and there is nothing left in mind body or soul and I am exhausted of thought do I still need to repent more, of not knowing what to repent of?

Yes.

Do I just need to keep repenting of being a human being?

Yes.

Sorry i am just not following this perpetual breathing in breathing out type repenting moment by moment.

Bolded = Christianity

Maybe our definitions of repent are much different and that is causing the issue here. Repent as verb or noun?

Verb.

What exactly do you mean with the word "repent" do you mean asking forgiveness?

Yes.

how many times do i need to ask daily? hourly? should we be asking every waking moment?

The Metropolitan recounted a story where a man more holy than myself and probably more holy than you asked for more time to repent bc he had only begun to repent. YOu interpret as you need....

Am I sinning by just existing? If this is your definition of sin I disagree.

Nope. You and I both do enough sinning on top of existing to cover the bases.

If communion is repentence and we need to repent perpetually then we need to take communion perpetually, if this is so, then we are doomed to a life of failure and unrighteousness and we might as well give up repenting and just trust in God's grace....oh wait that is what i believe anyway.

Yup! What poor fools we are. Trusting in a God of grace and mercy to forgive us in our frailty! We should probably take communion "as often as possible"....

Oh, right, Wesley said that we should take it "as often as possible." Maybe we should. In case you didn't know, you can find an Episcopal Church or UMC Church within driving distance that can facilitate daily Eucharist....

Question: If a person never once takes communion, isn't baptised and never steps in a church can they be right before God anyway if they repent once?

Repentance, without Baptism or Eucharist? That makes no sense. Christianly speaking, I give 2 answers, as the Christian Church would historically give them:

1) Did they receive extreme unction? This is a sacrament. If not, yes, they are devoid of the grace of the sacraments. 100% yes!!!

2) God gives salvation, God alone saves, God may, in fact, save outside of the grace of the sacraments.

or odes it require a lifetime of repenting?

Yes.

Or is it impossible to be right before God?

Relative term... what do you mean?

Is there any imputed [righteousness]

Absolutely, 100% NO!!! NO!!! NO!!! NO!! NO!! NO!!

or imparted righteousness?

Yes. We participate in this daily. From there, we must repent!

[Jim Chabot]

How often is repenting often enough? Do I spend all day everyday repenting? Do I repent daily at mass? is that often enough? repenting of what? how much changing of my mind, asking forgiveness do I need to do before God accepts me? How many times do I need to ask forgiveness for the sins of the past? when all is confessed and there is nothing left in mind body or soul and I am exhausted of thought do I still need to repent more, of not knowing what to repent of? Do I just need to keep repenting of being a human being?
Sorry i am just not following this perpetual breathing in breathing out type repenting moment by moment. Maybe our definitions of repent are much different and that is causing the issue here. Repent as verb or noun?

What exactly do you mean with the word "repent" do you mean asking forgiveness? how many times do i need to ask daily? hourly? should we be asking every waking moment? Am I sinning by just existing? If this is your definition of sin I disagree. If communion is repentence and we need to repent perpetually then we need to take communion perpetually, if this is so, then we are doomed to a life of failure and unrighteousness and we might as well give up repenting and just trust in God's grace....oh wait that is what i believe anyway.

Question: If a person never once takes communion, isn't baptised and never steps in a church can they be right before God anyway if they repent once? or odes it require a lifetime of repenting? Or is it impossible to be right before God? Is there any imputed or imparted righteousness?

Thanks.

Thanks isn't enough Dale! As I have been processing the thought regarding whether this view was allowable in a Nazarene sense, I had been focusing on Ben's view of communion. And while I couldn't say that it was explicitly not Nazarene, still I'm quite uncomfortable in that we view communion in a memorial sense. I realize that Wesley held a wider view, yet I recall a conversation with a professor aw hile back where he had stated that we specifically rejected Wesley's view in our manual statement. But it appears that I was off course, you may have captured the essence of my discomfort.

The view that provoked your response, that of continual repentance is, I believe, unacceptable for a Christian. It's just plain wrong thinking and it is thinking that surely must be developed outside of the Spirit's guidance. This continual repentance is brought about from the voice of the "accuser of the brethren" and should be repudiated and extinguished.

When this voice reminds us of our past, the Spirit tells us to remind him of his future!

[Hans Deventer]

The view that provoked your response, that of continual repentance is, I believe, unacceptable for a Christian. It's just plain wrong thinking and it is thinking that surely must be developed outside of the Spirit's guidance. This continual repentance is brought about from the voice of the "accuser of the brethren" and should be repudiated and extinguished.

When this voice reminds us of our past, the Spirit tells us to remind him of his future!

Wesley reminds us that there is never a time we cannot pray the Lord's prayer. He clearly did not believe in sinless perfection. If you think he wrote this outside of the Spirit's guidance, I have to reply that I think what Wesley wrote aligns with the Scriptures, contrary to this specific statement of yours. I'm sorry, Jim.

[Jim Chabot]

Wesley reminds us that there is never a time we cannot pray the Lord's prayer. He clearly did not believe in sinless perfection. If you think he wrote this outside of the Spirit's guidance, I have to reply that I think what Wesley wrote aligns with the Scriptures, contrary to this specific statement of yours. I'm sorry, Jim.

Somehow we have passed each other by without engagement.

I see nothing in the Lord's prayer expressing repentance. Clearly sinless perfection is not something that I'll ascribe to, when Tom proposed to show us how we could indeed be perfect. My response was "I don't understand why we should care? Why is this a concern?" Yet repentance is a changing of the direction of the mind, it cannot in and of itself bring sinless perfection, thus forgiveness is not ancillary to repentance. I don't connect the two, especially since we are already forgiven, if there is a required connection then repentance is not necessary.

Nor do I see repentance as a part of Communiion. I believe that we often seek forgiveness as a part of our contemplation. I think that many do so because they feel compelled to be "worthy" yet the actual instruction refers to the manner of partaking. Surely we can never be "worthy", we are instructed to partake "worthily", reflecting on God rather than ourselves.

However I must apologize because the miscommunication is of my doing here. I equated Dale's response with Ben's response to him, which is of course backward. Ben's response was so incredible that I became momentarily detached from my senses, and I failed to look back to see where Dale was coming from which was of course your post regarding the Lord's Prayer. My apologies for the logistical train wreck.

[Cam Pence]

I see nothing in the Lord's prayer expressing repentance.

And forgive us our tresspasses as we forgive those who tresspass against us

[Hans Deventer]

I see nothing in the Lord's prayer expressing repentance.

As I see it, if we have nothing to repent of, we have nothing to ask forgiveness for.

If I pray: "And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors", I do so in the context of what our Lord explains. "For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins."

If only because I have a real hard time forgiving others who sin against me, I have to repent. And we're not even talking about all my sins of omission, where I could have done good but didn't. And the sins flowing from actively partaking in a sinful system. Etc. Repentance is far from easy.

[Wes Smith]

Part of my Christian experience has revolved around the issue, "What kind of God do our actions and habits create?" This question is closely related to the development of human relationships in which we create each other.

Within the context of this thread, I would sorely dislike a human relationship where I was forced into a constant apologizing for sins, shortcomings, deficiencies. It would be natural for me to ascribe "dysfunctionality" to such a person/relationship. What kind of person would insist that a friend be constantly repentative of past actions? Healthy relationships are based on the trust that flows from understanding each other in ways that make us know our present and future is not determined by some ritual of remembering what we did wrong and staying immersed in it. I'd run a hundred miles from that person and stay as far away as possible for as long as possible. Bringing that concept into marriage or family is a truly creepy thought.

The clear implication from such a thought process is that we can create a God who delights in the constant apologies of his people. That just seems light years away from a healthy and functional relationship with our Creator and Savior. Speaking for myself, of course, I would run a hundred miles away from even the concept of a God who insists on constant repentence. Why in the world would I be attracted to healthy, ongoing, holding-no-grudges, relationships with people and, at the same time, a groveling, woe-is-me-if-I-do-not-repent-enough, relationship with Amighty God?

In my estimation, we've got far too much work to do, fun to experience, and love and life to share to spend too much time looking down and looking back over past deficiences. Of course, when my heart condemns me, I repent! But my repentence is to the Essence of relational health and functionality. My sins are forgiven, forgotten...forever! How refreshing. I'd run a hundred miles to get to know that God!!!

I'm constantly impacted by the degree of relational health contained in, Mat_7:11 "If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!"

My main point here is that I think relationship with God is infinitely better than the very best human relationships!

Friend,

Wes

[Dale Cozby]

As I see it, if we have nothing to repent of, we have nothing to ask forgiveness for.

If I pray: "And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors", I do so in the context of what our Lord explains. "For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins."

If only because I have a real hard time forgiving others who sin against me, I have to repent. And we're not even talking about all my sins of omission, where I could have done good but didn't. And the sins flowing from actively partaking in a sinful system. Etc. Repentance is far from easy.

Sins of omission known or unknown? If known then why are you still sinning? Why do you refuse to do what God has laid on your heart to do? Or are these "sins of omission" confusing because they are the guilt placed upon you by men for not living up to thier expectations?

If unknown then God's grace already covers it until the time His Spirit convicts of those sins.

If the sins you speak of are unforgiveness of others, then why are you still struggling with that? Forgiving others is like breathing in and out for me. I cannot always say it was so, but it is now and has been for many years. When offended I just ask the Lord to forgive them right there on the spot for they know not what they do, and if they know not what they do Jesus sacrifice covers them. Jesus also told us, " whatever you forgive on earth will be forgiven in heaven" , and Jesus forgave those who killed Him. We are to be like Jesus.
Jesus forgave, but did he ever repent of not forgiving? It is possible then to forgive without letting it turn into a sin for both parties first. He taught us to turn the other cheek rather than take eye for eye. Eye for eye then would be for us, sinning, now that we know we ought to turn the other cheek.
BTW I had a real hard time forgiving before for many years. I found it just wasn't worth it. I focused on that part of the Lord's prayer too. Now I focus on "deliver us from evil" more these days.


Thanks,

[Hans Deventer]

Sins of omission known or unknown? If known then why are you still sinning?

Because I don't dare to live in this world as I should. I've never sold everything and followed Jesus, which is the only option that would remove any kind of doubt from my mind in this area, for instance. Till then, I've gotta make it by grace.

"Taking part of a sinful system", same thing.

Why do you refuse to do what God has laid on your heart to do?

See above.

Or are these "sins of omission" confusing because they are the guilt placed upon you by men for not living up to thier expectations?

Nope. I'm already critical enough of myself, hardly need others for that.

If unknown then God's grace already covers it until the time His Spirit convicts of those sins.

There's too much known.

If the sins you speak of are unforgiveness of others, then why are you still struggling with that? Forgiving others is like breathing in and out for me. I cannot always say it was so,

Well, then you fully understand and why are you asking me what you already know?

I find it hard to build all of my identity on the love of Christ. Like you, I still often react out of emotions and say stuff way too harsh, which I regret later. I'm sure you'll understand.

[Benjamin Burch]

Part of my Christian experience has revolved around the issue, "What kind of God do our actions and habits create?" This question is closely related to the development of human relationships in which we create each other.

Within the context of this thread, I would sorely dislike a human relationship where I was forced into a constant apologizing for sins, shortcomings, deficiencies. It would be natural for me to ascribe "dysfunctionality" to such a person/relationship. What kind of person would insist that a friend be constantly repentative of past actions? Healthy relationships are based on the trust that flows from understanding each other in ways that make us know our present and future is not determined by some ritual of remembering what we did wrong and staying immersed in it. I'd run a hundred miles from that person and stay as far away as possible for as long as possible. Bringing that concept into marriage or family is a truly creepy thought.

The clear implication from such a thought process is that we can create a God who delights in the constant apologies of his people. That just seems light years away from a healthy and functional relationship with our Creator and Savior. Speaking for myself, of course, I would run a hundred miles away from even the concept of a God who insists on constant repentence. Why in the world would I be attracted to healthy, ongoing, holding-no-grudges, relationships with people and, at the same time, a groveling, woe-is-me-if-I-do-not-repent-enough, relationship with Amighty God?

In my estimation, we've got far too much work to do, fun to experience, and love and life to share to spend too much time looking down and looking back over past deficiences. Of course, when my heart condemns me, I repent! But my repentence is to the Essence of relational health and functionality. My sins are forgiven, forgotten...forever! How refreshing. I'd run a hundred miles to get to know that God!!!

I'm constantly impacted by the degree of relational health contained in, Mat_7:11 "If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!"

My main point here is that I think relationship with God is infinitely better than the very best human relationships!

Friend,

Wes

This relationship is not sorrowful and God does not require constant repentance. Our love for a Holy God calls us to always - happily and with thanksgiving - repent.

This relationship is far better than any human relationship I know of.

[Dale Cozby]

Since i cannot imagine a God so harsh as to demand I do something else(besides what I am doing already to please Him) so as to not be sinning against Him in word thought and deed everyday all day, even while I am loving Him and my neighbor as myself, I cannot concieve that repentence is a 24hr/7d/365dpy/120yr job.
God has better things for me to do than grovel in repentence all day everyday. Maybe it is what we mean by repentence that is the hang up here.
If by repentence you mean, being a fallen human being, as in "flesh bad, spirit good" sort of thing, then I guess you could be right. However I do not believe i sin in word thought in deed everyday all day forever. I consider this to be an evil doctrine from another source other than God. I do not believe the flesh is bad in itself either. Too Greek philosophy for my system of belief too.
I further do not think I can by my actions fo repentence earn in anyway God's grace that has already been given and accepted. I have moved on from needing to repent of known sins daily. Now, there are times when I do sin, but it is always in an area of attitude God has yet to reveal to me. Once He does so I repent quickly and move on, thanking Him for his grace in that moment. Yes they are mostly sins of omission these days. Distraction, and background noise often causes me to miss opportunties to love others more perfectly. But hey, we do live in a fallen world. God grace covers that too, without my rpentence.

Thanks and enjoying this conversation.

[Wes Smith]

This relationship is not sorrowful and God does not require constant repentance. Our love for a Holy God calls us to always - happily and with thanksgiving - repent.

This relationship is far better than any human relationship I know of.

Ben,

Not to nitpick, but "constant" and "always" seem very similar to me.

And, not to disagree either. I would like to learn anything I can to enhance my relationship with God through Jesus Christ in the power of the Holy Spirit!

Friend,

Wes

[Benjamin Burch]

Since i cannot imagine a God so harsh as to demand I do something else(besides what I am doing already to please Him) so as to not be sinning against Him in word thought and deed everyday all day, even while I am loving Him and my neighbor as myself, I cannot concieve that repentence is a 24hr/7d/365dpy/120yr job.

Do you not realize that God’s kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? - Romans 2:4b

How in the world is it that there is such a 180 degree reversal in your expectation from what Scripture actually says?

God has better things for me to do than grovel in repentence all day everyday.

Who said anything of groveling? I said rejoicing.

Maybe it is what we mean by repentence that is the hang up here.

Seems to me I was right from the start. Nazarenes are opposed to repentance.

If by repentence you mean, being a fallen human being, as in "flesh bad, spirit good" sort of thing, then I guess you could be right.

I absolutely mean no such thing. Jesus was fully human, and yet did no sin. Our flesh is not bad, nor sinful.

However I do not believe i sin in word thought in deed everyday all day forever.

Never said you did. Nor should you believe that you do this. We have victory over the bondage of sin!

I consider this to be an evil doctrine from another source other than God. I do not believe the flesh is bad in itself either. Too Greek philosophy for my system of belief too.

We agree!

I further do not think I can by my actions fo repentence earn in anyway God's grace that has already been given and accepted.

We agree again.

I have moved on from needing to repent of known sins daily. Now, there are times when I do sin, but it is always in an area of attitude God has yet to reveal to me.

And you should repent!

Once He does so I repent quickly and move on, thanking Him for his grace in that moment. Yes they are mostly sins of omission these days. Distraction, and background noise often causes me to miss opportunties to love others more perfectly. But hey, we do live in a fallen world. God grace covers that too, without my rpentence.

1) Should we repent while it is unknown, instead of waiting for it to become known?
2) Agreed, God's grace covers a multitude of sins. However, out of love, we should repent.