Is this belief a possibility in the Church of the Nazarene?

[Benjamin Burch]

Ben,

Not to nitpick, but "constant" and "always" seem very similar to me.

And, not to disagree either. I would like to learn anything I can to enhance my relationship with God through Jesus Christ in the power of the Holy Spirit!

Friend,

Wes

Constant and always are the same!

My point was that God does not require it. Our love for God calls us to do it. Huge difference.

[Ryan Pugh]

Lord Jesus Christ, son of the living God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

Why would we not want to pray this, or something like it, every moment of every day?

[Benjamin Burch]

Disciples: Father, we all know that you are holy. You do not need to repent!

Abba Sisoes: Surely, I do not know within myself if I have even begun to repent.

[Hans Deventer]

John Wesley: "I the chief of sinners am, but Jesus died for me".

[Jim Chabot]

Seems to me I was right from the start. Nazarenes are opposed to repentance.

Repentance is a turning away or turning toward, it is a change in direction. We have repented and we are now following. Yes absolutely the kindness of God brings us to repentance, it is finished, it is done, tetelestai!

Our sins are forgiven, we have turned away from them and we seek to follow Jesus! The look is forward, the only voice calling us to look back is satan. Jesus called his disciples to follow Him. He did not call them to a life of continual repentance, nor does He call us in this way.

Your take appears to bear a striking resemblance to the story of the unclean spirit, who after leaving for a spell returns to find his abode clean and swept. So he brings seven of his friends. We are to fill ourselves with thoughts of how we can follow, we are to seek good rather than focus on the past and cleaning our rooms. I honestly believe that the path which you espouse leads to destruction.

Funny how the sermon this morning focused on exactly the opposite of this message, while our pastor had no idea of this conversation. My wife also had no idea of this conversation or of the sermon subject, yet she sang this song. You would be helped should you heed this sound advice.

It happened so long ago
And I cried out for mercy back then
I plead the blood of Jesus
Begged him to forgive my sin
But I still can't forget it
It just won't go away
So I wept again, "Lord wash my sin,"
But this is all He'd say

What sin, what sin?
That's as far away
As the east is from the west
What sin, what sin?
It was gone the very minute you confessed
Buried in the sea of forgetfulness

The heaviest thing you'll carry
Is a load of guilt and shame
You were never meant to bear them
So let them go in Jesus' name
Our God is slow to anger
Quick to forgive our sin
So let Him put them under the blood
Don't bring them up again
Cause He'll just say


What sin, what sin?
That's as far away
As the east is from the west
What sin, what sin?
It was gone the very minute you confessed
Buried in the sea of forgetfulness

Lord, please deliver me
From my accusing memory
Nothing makes me weep this way,
Then when I hear you say


What sin, what sin?
That's as far away
As the east is from the west
What sin, what sin?
It was gone the very minute you confessed
Buried in the sea of forgetfulness

REPEAT CHORUS

[Jim Chabot]

And forgive us our tresspasses as we forgive those who tresspass against us

We say this with joy in our hearts, thanking Him for forgiveness already granted and looking ahead as the joy of forgiveness causes us to forgive others! Repentance? That is accomplished, we rejoice again as we recall the day when we turned to follow Him!

As I see it, if we have nothing to repent of, we have nothing to ask forgiveness for.

So incredibly glad that I don't share your view! Not going back, I have no interest in purchasing a guilt trip. My God has called me to repentance through the great love that He has shown through the gift of His Son. I am so glad that I heard His voice and turned to look full in His wonderful face! I have repented, now I follow.

What you say? Revisit this again and again? Crucify my Lord over and over again? Heaven forbid. My God calls me to a life of joyful living with Him. He calls me friend!

[Susan Unger]

Repentance is a turning away or turning toward, it is a change in direction. We have repented and we are now following. Yes absolutely the kindness of God brings us to repentance, it is finished, it is done, tetelestai!

Our sins are forgiven, we have turned away from them and we seek to follow Jesus! The look is forward, the only voice calling us to look back is satan. Jesus called his disciples to follow Him. He did not call them to a life of continual repentance, nor does He call us in this way.

Your take appears to bear a striking resemblance to the story of the unclean spirit, who after leaving for a spell returns to find his abode clean and swept. So he brings seven of his friends. We are to fill ourselves with thoughts of how we can follow, we are to seek good rather than focus on the past and cleaning our rooms. I honestly believe that the path which you espouse leads to destruction.

Funny how the sermon this morning focused on exactly the opposite of this message, while our pastor had no idea of this conversation. My wife also had no idea of this conversation or of the sermon subject, yet she sang this song. You would be helped should you heed this sound advice.

It happened so long ago
And I cried out for mercy back then
I plead the blood of Jesus
Begged him to forgive my sin
But I still can't forget it
It just won't go away
So I wept again, "Lord wash my sin,"
But this is all He'd say

What sin, what sin?
That's as far away
As the east is from the west
What sin, what sin?
It was gone the very minute you confessed
Buried in the sea of forgetfulness

The heaviest thing you'll carry
Is a load of guilt and shame
You were never meant to bear them
So let them go in Jesus' name
Our God is slow to anger
Quick to forgive our sin
So let Him put them under the blood
Don't bring them up again
Cause He'll just say


What sin, what sin?
That's as far away
As the east is from the west
What sin, what sin?
It was gone the very minute you confessed
Buried in the sea of forgetfulness

Lord, please deliver me
From my accusing memory
Nothing makes me weep this way,
Then when I hear you say


What sin, what sin?
That's as far away
As the east is from the west
What sin, what sin?
It was gone the very minute you confessed
Buried in the sea of forgetfulness

REPEAT CHORUS

I agree with your whole post, and especially with the part I highlighted. I feel spiritual bondage overwhelm me when I am around people who constantly dwell on their sin. It is as if they are saying that God's forgiveness isn't enough so they must repent over and over. I can't live like that. I find spiritual freedom when I dwell on God's sanctifying grace which gives me the grace I need to live in spiritual constantancy as well as grow in holy love for others. Why anyone wants to dwell on sin and the need for constant repentance is a mystery to me.

[Susan Unger]

So incredibly glad that I don't share your view! Not going back, I have no interest in purchasing a guilt trip. My God has called me to repentance through the great love that He has shown through the gift of His Son. I am so glad that I heard His voice and turned to look full in His wonderful face! I have repented, now I follow.

What you say? Revisit this again and again? Crucify my Lord over and over again? Heaven forbid. My God calls me to a life of joyful living with Him. He calls me friend!

Amen!

[Benjamin Burch]

Repentance is a turning away or turning toward, it is a change in direction. We have repented and we are now following. Yes absolutely the kindness of God brings us to repentance, it is finished, it is done, tetelestai!

Our sins are forgiven, we have turned away from them and we seek to follow Jesus! The look is forward, the only voice calling us to look back is satan. Jesus called his disciples to follow Him. He did not call them to a life of continual repentance, nor does He call us in this way.

Your take appears to bear a striking resemblance to the story of the unclean spirit, who after leaving for a spell returns to find his abode clean and swept. So he brings seven of his friends. We are to fill ourselves with thoughts of how we can follow, we are to seek good rather than focus on the past and cleaning our rooms. I honestly believe that the path which you espouse leads to destruction.

Funny how the sermon this morning focused on exactly the opposite of this message, while our pastor had no idea of this conversation. My wife also had no idea of this conversation or of the sermon subject, yet she sang this song. You would be helped should you heed this sound advice.

It happened so long ago
And I cried out for mercy back then
I plead the blood of Jesus
Begged him to forgive my sin
But I still can't forget it
It just won't go away
So I wept again, "Lord wash my sin,"
But this is all He'd say

What sin, what sin?
That's as far away
As the east is from the west
What sin, what sin?
It was gone the very minute you confessed
Buried in the sea of forgetfulness

The heaviest thing you'll carry
Is a load of guilt and shame
You were never meant to bear them
So let them go in Jesus' name
Our God is slow to anger
Quick to forgive our sin
So let Him put them under the blood
Don't bring them up again
Cause He'll just say


What sin, what sin?
That's as far away
As the east is from the west
What sin, what sin?
It was gone the very minute you confessed
Buried in the sea of forgetfulness

Lord, please deliver me
From my accusing memory
Nothing makes me weep this way,
Then when I hear you say


What sin, what sin?
That's as far away
As the east is from the west
What sin, what sin?
It was gone the very minute you confessed
Buried in the sea of forgetfulness

REPEAT CHORUS

Most merciful God,
we confess that we have sinned against you
in thought, word, and deed,
by what we have done,
and by what we have left undone.
We have not loved you with our whole heart;
we have not loved our neighbors as ourselves.
We are truly sorry and we humbly repent.
For the sake of your Son Jesus Christ,
have mercy on us and forgive us;
that we may delight in your will,
and walk in your ways,
to the glory of your Name. Amen.

As long as Christ is my standard, I believe that I will need to come back to these words each week and each day.

I also believe:

There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do: by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and to deal with sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, so that the just requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

And all of us, with unveiled faces, seeing the glory of the Lord as though reflected in a mirror, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another; for this comes from the Lord, the Spirit.

What then are we to say? Should we continue in sin in order that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin go on living in it? Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? Therefore we have been buried with him by baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. We know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be destroyed, and we might no longer be enslaved to sin. For whoever has died is freed from sin. But if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. The death he died, he died to sin, once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God. So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

Therefore, do not let sin exercise dominion in your mortal bodies, to make you obey their passions. No longer present your members to sin as instruments of wickedness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and present your members to God as instruments of righteousness. For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.

I believe that these are not mutually exclusive, but instead the paradox in which we live.

Christianity has always seemed very comfortable with paradox, and I believe this to be one of the central paradoxes within Christianity.

I believe and confess, Lord, that You are truly the Christ, the Son of the living God, who came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the first. I also believe that this is truly Your pure Body and that this is truly Your precious Blood. Therefore, I pray to You, have mercy upon me, and forgive my transgressions, voluntary and involuntary, in word and deed, known and unknown. And make me worthy without condemnation to partake of Your pure Mysteries for the forgiveness of sins and for life eternal. Amen.
How shall I, who am unworthy, enter into the splendor of Your saints? If I dare to enter into the bridal chamber, my clothing will accuse me, since it is not a wedding garment; and being bound up, I shall be cast out by the angels. In Your love, Lord, cleanse my soul and save me.

Loving Master, Lord Jesus Christ, my God, let not these holy Gifts be to my condemnation because of my unworthiness, but for the cleansing and sanctification of soul and body and the pledge of the future life and kingdom. It is good for me to cling to God and to place in Him the hope of my salvation.

Receive me today, Son of God, as a partaker of Your mystical Supper. I will not reveal Your mystery to Your adversaries. Nor will I give You a kiss as did Judas. But as the thief I confess to You: Lord, remember me in Your kingdom.

All: I confess to almighty God,
and to you, my brothers and sisters,
that I have sinned through my own fault,
in my thoughts and in my words,
in what I have done,
and in what I have failed to do;
and I ask blessed Mary, ever virgin,
all the angels and saints,
and you, my brothers and sisters,
to pray for me to the Lord, our God.

Priest: May almighty God have mercy on us, forgive us our sins, and bring us to everlasting life.

All: Amen.

Again, it is fine if others disagree. And I'm not arguing with those who would say this doesn't fit in the CotN. Simply explaining myself.

[Benjamin Burch]

My God calls me to a life of joyful living with Him. He calls me friend!

I couldn't agree more.

[Hans Deventer]

So incredibly glad that I don't share your view! Not going back, I have no interest in purchasing a guilt trip. My God has called me to repentance through the great love that He has shown through the gift of His Son. I am so glad that I heard His voice and turned to look full in His wonderful face! I have repented, now I follow.

What you say? Revisit this again and again? Crucify my Lord over and over again? Heaven forbid. My God calls me to a life of joyful living with Him. He calls me friend!

I don't think you have understood what I am saying. Maybe I have not explained myself well enough. There are two sides to this issue.

1. I don't live in fear or with a depressing feeling of guilt. I live by the grace of God, if there is anything I am thoroughly convinced of, it is the fact of the love of God, for me as well. Amazing grace! Turning back is not in order, I don't have a time in which I did not believe. Though, faith has sunk from my head to my heart through the years.

2. I am aware, the more I learn about my Saviour, that I'm still not where I should be. I'm not glorified yet. I'm not like Jesus yet, and it would be sheer stupidity and arrogance for me to deny that.

So here I am. Don't think anything I have said has anything to do with crucifying my Saviour, or not realising He calls me "friend". He does want to teach me a thing or two. Can't blame Him. Very grateful He's such a patient teacher.

[Dale Cozby]

Do you not realize that God’s kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? - Romans 2:4b

How in the world is it that there is such a 180 degree reversal in your expectation from what Scripture actually says?

I don't think you are using this verse in proper context. according to the fuller text, it seems those who are passing judgment need to repent of it since they are receiving God's kindness and grace. I have no problem with that. I think you are 180 on this in that even after i have repented you say I have not and need to contunue repenting. Like a dog chasing its tail. When I am praying I should have been feeding the hungry and when I am feeding the hungry I should have been praying. This (human)judgment is what Paul is condemning.

Who said anything of groveling? I said rejoicing.

"Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation" 2 Corinthians 7:10a

Seems to me I was right from the start. Nazarenes are opposed to repentance.

I would say Nazarenes(at least the ones I know personally) are opposed to incorrect doctrines or emphasis on non-essential beliefs or ritual actions in order to be right with God.

I absolutely mean no such thing. Jesus was fully human, and yet did no sin. Our flesh is not bad, nor sinful.

Then why do we need to repent 24/7/365/120? If you don't mind me asking, what did you repent of today? Help me rejoice with you. I haven't repented of anything today...does this mean I am not right before God? Am I less right today than I was yesterday because I didn't repent yesterday either. I took communion last week have I been going down hill ever since then? I am needing more explanation to understand your postiion and make sense of it.

Never said you did. Nor should you believe that you do this. We have victory over the bondage of sin!

Romans 6 is very good chapter. The last verse in Romans 7 though takes us to a new plain of thinking. Sin nature, does it make us sin in word, thought and deed every day, every moment? How is that victory? Chapter 8 helps us to answer Romans 7:22-25

We agree! We agree again.

I am always glad when the brethren can agree.

And you should repent!

A ha....yes we agree again. Yet something makes me less formulated about it than you. I cannot accept that repentence of unknown sins is possible in the sense of repentence as a definition of changing ones mind or attitdue. I cannot repent of what I do not know exists. I can therefore find no sin of which I need to repent of today...or yesterday. If I keep my heart right before God and live by the Spirit and not the flesh what is there to repent of and live? Of sins unknown, I trust His grace and sacrifice made.
"He condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.... Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship."

1) Should we repent while it is unknown, instead of waiting for it to become known?
2) Agreed, God's grace covers a multitude of sins. However, out of love, we should repent.

1. See above scripture. True repentence of unknown sins is not possible in that the definition of repentence requires knowledge. Knowledge leads to to the awareness of our sin. Without knowledge I am fully convinced that God will judge each accordingly by his faith. The sacrifice for all sins known and unknown has been made. Repentence leads
As such when I became a Christian and asked God to forgive my sins, past present and future, known and unknown and to help live according to His will. I canstand on that prayer answered. To keep asking doesn't make Him answer it again, or better or more completely. James 1:5-7
2. Repentence requires awareness of the sin. When all is exhausted and confession is over, I wonder how the High Priest or his vicar would feel if you went to the back of the line and started all over again, "Bless me Father, for I have sinned. It has been 7 minutes since my last confession"
Maybe reconciliation, restitution, redemption, obedience, and penitence are being amalgmated into the word repentence.

Thanks and enjoying the conversation.

[Dale Cozby]

I just want to say thanks for the thoughtfulness of this conversation. I have many friends who are of Roman Catholic, Lutheran and Anglican heritage and membership. So I have often discussed our various traditions and have used, am using and will use a very repentant liturgy on Ash Wednesday and similar themes during Lent and other various times of the year. "If the shoe fits" sort of thinking.

Also if I am notorius for typos and spelling errors it is not a "known" sin. I have a very small keyboard and a very small monitor and without some glasses to help me, I find the print entirely too small to not "sin" on occassion.

[Benjamin Burch]

I don't think you are using this verse in proper context. according to the fuller text, it seems those who are passing judgment need to repent of it since they are receiving God's kindness and grace. I have no problem with that. I think you are 180 on this in that even after i have repented you say I have not and need to contunue repenting. Like a dog chasing its tail. When I am praying I should have been feeding the hungry and when I am feeding the hungry I should have been praying. This (human)judgment is what Paul is condemning.

I will address this when I can get my book out of my car. Suffice for now to say that - as a student of Romans - I strongly disagree with this exegesis of the passage.

"Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation" 2 Corinthians 7:10a

I still don't see how "Godly sorrow" has anything to do with groveling.

I would say Nazarenes(at least the ones I know personally) are opposed to incorrect doctrines or emphasis on non-essential beliefs or ritual actions in order to be right with God.

I think you'll notice here that I never once in this entire conversation said that if we do not do this that we are not right with God.

Then why do we need to repent 24/7/365/120?

Because if Jesus Christ is the mark, we fall woefully short of that mark (sin). If you can tell me honestly right now that you perfectly reflect the image of Christ, more power to you.

If you don't mind me asking, what did you repent of today? Help me rejoice with you.

I repented for the lack of love in my heart towards the CNs.
I repented for my attitude towards a couple of people yesterday.
I repented for a couple of personal issues.
I repented for any other unknown way in which I have - or may - fail to image the glorious Son of God

I haven't repented of anything today...does this mean I am not right before God?

I never said that. I have no idea if you're right before God or not. I am sure people who are much closer to you and love you dearly know that much better than I do, Dale.

Am I less right today than I was yesterday because I didn't repent yesterday either.

Again, I don't know why you keep bringing up "being right with God." As I already answered once, God approved of us and set us right with him before we knew him: "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing."

I took communion last week have I been going down hill ever since then?

You have been missing out on the precious gift of God's grace in the sacrament, the spiritual food and drink of unending life. Of course! Just as I have missed out since Sunday!

I am needing more explanation to understand your postiion and make sense of it.

Hopefully this is doing it???

Romans 6 is very good chapter. The last verse in Romans 7 though takes us to a new plain of thinking. Sin nature, does it make us sin in word, thought and deed every day, every moment? How is that victory? Chapter 8 helps us to answer Romans 7:22-25

And yet it doesn't seem yet in Romans 8 that we are completely conformed to the image of Christ until resurrection.

A ha....yes we agree again. Yet something makes me less formulated about it than you. I cannot accept that repentence of unknown sins is possible in the sense of repentence as a definition of changing ones mind or attitdue. I cannot repent of what I do not know exists. I can therefore find no sin of which I need to repent of today...or yesterday. If I keep my heart right before God and live by the Spirit and not the flesh what is there to repent of and live? Of sins unknown, I trust His grace and sacrifice made.

Two answers:

1) You're using an overly narrow meaning of the word repent. I don't know any word that retains a singular narrow meaning. Certainly not "repent." I already said in an earlier post I am using it to mean "ask for forgiveness of sins." You can very certainly ask for forgiveness for unknown sins.

2) Christ is the mark towards which we aim. Anything short - anything - and we would seem to be "missing the mark." That seems to be sin by the definition, right? Every day we turn away from the imperfect image we were and turn closer towards the perfect image we are becoming. Is that not the definition of repentance you've used so far?


Dale, I am in no way saying we should walk through life mopey and sad and guilt-ridden. I am saying we should go through life continually asking God to sanctify us more so and conform us more and more to the image of God's Son, so that we might reflect our savior perfectly.... all the while we ask God to forgive us anywhere we have fallen short of a perfect reflection of that image, joyfully knowing that God has gone ahead of us and is perfecting the work that God started.... we are being forgiven and we are being conformed into that image! Praise be to God through our Lord Jesus Christ!

"He condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.... Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship."





1. See above scripture. True repentence of unknown sins is not possible in that the definition of repentence requires knowledge. Knowledge leads to to the awareness of our sin. Without knowledge I am fully convinced that God will judge each accordingly by his faith. The sacrifice for all sins known and unknown has been made. Repentence leads
As such when I became a Christian and asked God to forgive my sins, past present and future, known and unknown and to help live according to His will. I canstand on that prayer answered.

1) Again, with the narrow definition. I already answered that.

2) Do you stand on the vows you and your wife made each other on your wedding day, never telling her you love her anymore, and never leaving behind older ways of being with her for newer growth into your love together?

Worse yet, do you kiss your wife and tell her you love her only once a month, assuming that gets you through until the next month!?

To keep asking doesn't make Him answer it again, or better or more completely. James 1:5-7

No, but it is a spiritual practice whereby we participate in our own transformation into the image of God's Son.

[Dale Cozby]

Do you stand on the vows you and your wife made each other on your wedding day, never telling her you love her anymore, and never leaving behind older ways of being with her for newer growth into your love together?

Worse yet, do you kiss your wife and tell her you love her only once a month, assuming that gets you through until the next month!?

I was actually thinking of this example to use as well!
While my wife may find fault with me occasionally, I am glad she does not find fault with my every action everyday.
I don't wake up in the morning and start by saying, 'Dear Wife, I am sorry for my failures and sins that you find displeasing, please forgive me for not being the perfect husband."
I don't end the day by saying, Dear wife, I am sorry I have not lived up to your expections and standards, please offer me more grace for my sins."
I suppose she might like it sometimes, but I think she would be a creeped out after awhile and tell me can we just be friends without all the repentence and asking for forgiveness?
IF repenting is like kissing....hmm. Judas kissed Jesus too but it wasn't sincere was it? Of course had he kissed his feet, weeping like the woman it might have been different...

Anyway, I can't repsond more for a while life is going to get very busy. Thanks for sharing i will be back later.

[Jim Chabot]

I was actually thinking of this example to use as well!
While my wife may find fault with me occasionally, I am glad she does not find fault with my every action everyday.
I don't wake up in the morning and start by saying, 'Dear Wife, I am sorry for my failures and sins that you find displeasing, please forgive me for not being the perfect husband."
I don't end the day by saying, Dear wife, I am sorry I have not lived up to your expections and standards, please offer me more grace for my sins."
I suppose she might like it sometimes, but I think she would be a creeped out after awhile and tell me can we just be friends without all the repentence and asking for forgiveness?
IF repenting is like kissing....hmm. Judas kissed Jesus too but it wasn't sincere was it? Of course had he kissed his feet, weeping like the woman it might have been different...

Anyway, I can't repsond more for a while life is going to get very busy. Thanks for sharing i will be back later.

Great example Dale! I'm reasonably certain that my wife would soon grow tired of the asking for forgiveness routine. Pretty sure that it would be pretty much unloving as well.

Rather we seek to do things together and for each other. I don't think in terms of avoiding her wrath, ire or disapointment. Rather I think in terms of how I may please her.

[John Kennedy]

I grew up in the CotN at a time when the only point of view was that of the AHM. It was years before I ever heard classic Wesleyan teaching (I know some of you have an incredible disdain for John Wesley).

The overwhelming thrust of messages I heard from all quarters was on the dangers of a 'sinning religion' - that if one had attained a sufficient state of grace (two trips to the altar, etc) confession was not just unnecessary, it was downright undesirable.

From time to time I had the pleasure (NOT) of dealing with people who were singularly intent on maintaining the position of not needing to confess to falling short. They could be downright miserable to deal with. I've come increasing to disbelieve in an 'unpardonable sin'. But if there is one, I'd bet the rent money it's the sin of spiritual pride.

In my daily private prayers I confess to falling short and ask God's forgiveness. In my relationships I have had to, from time to time, ask forgiveness from others. In times of corporate worship I join with other Christians in a prayer of confession. When I come to the Lord's table I confess my unworthiness to receive the bread and wine as I celebrate the gift of grace embodied in the sacrament.

And every time I do, I feel better. I don't feel like I'm groveling. I feel like I'm helping to maintain a clear line of communication with the one who knows me as no other, and even more blessedly, loves me as no other.

[Susan Unger]

I was actually thinking of this example to use as well!
While my wife may find fault with me occasionally, I am glad she does not find fault with my every action everyday.
I don't wake up in the morning and start by saying, 'Dear Wife, I am sorry for my failures and sins that you find displeasing, please forgive me for not being the perfect husband."
I don't end the day by saying, Dear wife, I am sorry I have not lived up to your expections and standards, please offer me more grace for my sins."
I suppose she might like it sometimes, but I think she would be a creeped out after awhile and tell me can we just be friends without all the repentence and asking for forgiveness?
IF repenting is like kissing....hmm. Judas kissed Jesus too but it wasn't sincere was it? Of course had he kissed his feet, weeping like the woman it might have been different...

Anyway, I can't repsond more for a while life is going to get very busy. Thanks for sharing i will be back later.

Great example Dale! I'm reasonably certain that my wife would soon grow tired of the asking for forgiveness routine. Pretty sure that it would be pretty much unloving as well.

Rather we seek to do things together and for each other. I don't think in terms of avoiding her wrath, ire or disapointment. Rather I think in terms of how I may please her.

Love both examples. And I have had this happen to me. I had two friends who did this all the time. It was highly annoying. At one point our pastor's wife forbade one of them from ever using the S word again [the S word being the word sorry]. After the fact, I realize that they both did this because of low-self esteems. They couldn't believe that God could love them, forgive them or want to have anything to do with them. And since God was like that, humans would be too.

[Hans Deventer]

Love both examples. And I have had this happen to me. I had two friends who did this all the time. It was highly annoying. At one point our pastor's wife forbade one of them from ever using the S word again [the S word being the word sorry]. After the fact, I realize that they both did this because of low-self esteems. They couldn't believe that God could love them, forgive them or want to have anything to do with them. And since God was like that, humans would be too.

How can one have low self esteem when the very Creator of the Universe tells you He loves you? Even died for you? I still don't understand the reasoning.

And as much as I love my wife, she's not God. The comparison simply does not follow.

But even because of her love for me, I want to be a better man. Let alone because of His love.

[Scott Moseley]

For some reason this thread brought to mind a tune I hadn't thought of in years. One that my Dad kept Cued up on the ol' Telfunken LP console.

[Benjamin Burch]

I grew up in the CotN at a time when the only point of view was that of the AHM. It was years before I ever heard classic Wesleyan teaching (I know some of you have an incredible disdain for John Wesley).

The overwhelming thrust of messages I heard from all quarters was on the dangers of a 'sinning religion' - that if one had attained a sufficient state of grace (two trips to the altar, etc) confession was not just unnecessary, it was downright undesirable.

From time to time I had the pleasure (NOT) of dealing with people who were singularly intent on maintaining the position of not needing to confess to falling short. They could be downright miserable to deal with. I've come increasing to disbelieve in an 'unpardonable sin'. But if there is one, I'd bet the rent money it's the sin of spiritual pride.

In my daily private prayers I confess to falling short and ask God's forgiveness. In my relationships I have had to, from time to time, ask forgiveness from others. In times of corporate worship I join with other Christians in a prayer of confession. When I come to the Lord's table I confess my unworthiness to receive the bread and wine as I celebrate the gift of grace embodied in the sacrament.

And every time I do, I feel better. I don't feel like I'm groveling. I feel like I'm helping to maintain a clear line of communication with the one who knows me as no other, and even more blessedly, loves me as no other.

This. Thank you, John. For clearly expressing what it is I'm failing to express.

[Jim Chabot]

How can one have low self esteem when the very Creator of the Universe tells you He loves you? Even died for you? I still don't understand the reasoning.

And as much as I love my wife, she's not God. The comparison simply does not follow.

But even because of her love for me, I want to be a better man. Let alone because of His love.

Oh it's incredibly easy. For once you fall for the trap set by the guilters, it becomes difficult to see God as anything other than a severe taskmaster. There is no escape, no one will ever measure up, we must always grovel and confess. To be truthful, life on our own would be preferable.

Yes the comparison to our earthly relationships does follow, we are made in His image, we bear His imprimatur. A better example would be the parent child relationship, and it's no surprise that this example is found throughout his innerant message to us. Sure our children haven't reached our level of maturity, and we surely seek to help them in that quest. Yet our joy is in their accomplishments, our peace is in their desire towards us. Granted we are disappointed by their failures, yet our desire is to come alongside and bear them up and help them along. Our love for our children urges us to set boundaries and guidelines that will be in their best interest, our joy is to see them happy and successful.

Is it appropriate that our children confess their failings and ask for our forgiveness? Of course it is, our kindness and love resonates with them and it elicits this very natural response. Yet other than to mention and acknowledge this, there isn't much to discuss in this vein, because this simply pales in comparison to the positive aspects of the mutual love we share with our children. Our Lord has said the same when he proclaims that obedience is superior to sacrifice, and further that desires mercy to sacrifice as well. Yes confession is the natural response to failure or disobedience, and yes it is correct, yet I am confident that our Father turns from this confession almost as fast as we speak it. His response is always as it was with Cain, "come may we reason together." "If thou doest well, will thou not be accepted?"

Yes, His response remains unchanged today, "do well" is the message! Again I would point out the story of the unclean spirit who returns to find cleanliness. Evil and sin have been purged, the room is clean and he will bring seven friends. This is the road to destruction and ruin. Again, the message is "do well", this is the message of holiness. Rather than sweeping, cleaning and purging this room of unclean spirits, our desire should be to completely fill this room with the clutter of good. Do well, and there will be no place for the unclean spirit to find comfort. The message of holiness is not "dwell on failure", the message remains "do well!"

I do realize that there are two sides of the story, I do realize that there is a time for confession. Yet it is to be brief, for if we are listening to the Spirit, His immediate response will be "do well", arise pick up your mat and walk. Move on because the work of confession is over in an instant. This ends my acknowledgement of confession, and actually I have already given it more notice than is deserved.

[Hans Deventer]

Oh it's incredibly easy. For once you fall for the trap set by the guilters, it becomes difficult to see God as anything other than a severe taskmaster.

This is an effective way to stop communication. Your description has nothing whatsoever to do with how I view God. And you should have known.

[Jim Chabot]

For some reason this thread brought to mind a tune I hadn't thought of in years. One that my Dad kept Cued up on the ol' Telfunken LP console.

Absolutely love those guys. I still listen to old statesmen recordings and I sing some of their songs still!

The youtube fellow did use the wrong picture though. Jake Hess sang lead at that time, the picture s showing Jack Toney.

[Jim Chabot]

This is an effective way to stop communication. Your description has nothing whatsoever to do with how I view God. And you should have known.

My response has absolutely nothing to do with your view of God. It has everything to do with the view of so many who have been caught and trapped by those who would continually call us to a life of grovelling before the throne. And it has everything to do with where I have been so long ago. It appears that Susan has been there as well, and I know of many others including my wife whom I love dearly. So yes I will rail against this wrong teaching and I will stand between thos who teach it and those who need protection. I do apologize if you have taken this personally, it is not my intent. To be honest, while I have been responding to your posts, my words speak to Ben's wrong headed message. I've been content to let Dale deal with Ben directly, my emotions run too high in this area and I fear that my responses may become less than charitable. In any case, I rail against the idea, certainly not either of you.

[Hans Deventer]

My response has absolutely nothing to do with your view of God.

Well, can we continue on the premise that I do NOT, repeat, NOT "see God as anything other than a severe taskmaster"?

I've been there and I ain't going back.

[Susan Unger]

How can one have low self esteem when the very Creator of the Universe tells you He loves you? Even died for you? I still don't understand the reasoning.

And as much as I love my wife, she's not God. The comparison simply does not follow.

But even because of her love for me, I want to be a better man. Let alone because of His love.

I don't know enough about the one friend to comment, but with the one who was told she can't use the S word anymore her low self-esteem came from lack of love growing up and even into adulthood. Our church was the only place in which she felt loved. In her childhood church of another denomination in which she told God every Sunday that she was unworthy and only was forgiven by God if her priest felt like it telling her that she was [this is how she preceived it], she couldn't believe that God would or could love her. Since her own family didn't love her, and her view of God was one that relied on a priest to forgive and love only if he felt like it, she couldn't believe that we could love her too. * Her constant apologizing came from a lifetime of learning that apologies where the only way to keep her family's favor. At the point in her story when she was at my church always apologizing, she had been converted for only a few years. I think now if I were to ask her about this she'd probably still say that but with a lot less self-loathing.

*I am not saying this to bash another denomination. I am only saying this because this is how she preceived things from her emotionally wounded state.

[Hans Deventer]

I don't know enough about the one friend to comment, but with the one who was told she can't use the S word anymore her low self-esteem came from lack of love growing up and even into adulthood. Our church was the only place in which she felt loved. In her childhood church of another denomination in which she told God every Sunday that she was unworthy and only was forgiven by God if her priest felt like it telling her that she was [this is how she preceived it], she couldn't believe that God would or could love her. Since her own family didn't love her, and her view of God was one that relied on a priest to forgive and love only if he felt like it, she couldn't believe that we could love her too. * Her constant apologizing came from a lifetime of learning that apologies where the only way to keep her family's favor. At the point in her story when she was at my church always apologizing, she had been converted for only a few years. I think now if I were to ask her about this she'd probably still say that but with a lot less self-loathing.

*I am not saying this to bash another denomination. I am only saying this because this is how she preceived things from her emotionally wounded state.

I understand, Susan. This is a very sad story and unfortunately, not unique. It is so crucial that we understand prevenient grace. Whatever God asks from us, is preceded by His unconditional love for us. Even the command to pick up our cross and follow Him.

[Jim Chabot]

Well, can we continue on the premise that I do NOT, repeat, NOT "see God as anything other than a severe taskmaster"?

We most certainly may my friend! While I was describing the effects that this doctrine has on so many people, I would never attribute a view of anything other than an incredibly loving God to you.

Please bear in mind that one of those so affected is my wife. The pain that I have felt for her as she struggles with the concept of a God who is loving toward her affects me greatly. I will engage this which I feel is the doctrine of demons with fervor and with every breath that I have.

I've been there and I ain't going back.

Well lets make sure of that! Cause I ain't going back either, nor anyone else if I can possibly help it!

[Susan Unger]

Please bear in mind that one of those so affected is my wife. The pain that I have felt for her as she struggles with the concept of a God who is loving toward her affects me greatly. I will engage this which I feel is the doctrine of demons with fervor and with every breath that I have.

This needs more than a click of thanks.

[Jim Chabot]

I don't know enough about the one friend to comment, but with the one who was told she can't use the S word anymore her low self-esteem came from lack of love growing up and even into adulthood. Our church was the only place in which she felt loved. In her childhood church of another denomination in which she told God every Sunday that she was unworthy and only was forgiven by God if her priest felt like it telling her that she was [this is how she preceived it], she couldn't believe that God would or could love her. Since her own family didn't love her, and her view of God was one that relied on a priest to forgive and love only if he felt like it, she couldn't believe that we could love her too. * Her constant apologizing came from a lifetime of learning that apologies where the only way to keep her family's favor. At the point in her story when she was at my church always apologizing, she had been converted for only a few years. I think now if I were to ask her about this she'd probably still say that but with a lot less self-loathing.

*I am not saying this to bash another denomination. I am only saying this because this is how she preceived things from her emotionally wounded state.

Sadly there are so many stories like this and so many churches like this as well. Both my present church and the one previous are incredibly loving churches, and I am so thankful to have and be a part there and here. At my past church, on more than one occasion I mentioned to the congregation that the first thing that I noticed about that church was a slogan painted on their vans. "The Church that Cares" is what it says, and my initial reaction was "yeah right!", I didn't believe it for a minute, and yet I was so incredibly happy to find out that I was wrong, and so glad to admit this to the congregation and thank them for their love! We need more churches like this, and we need to pray for those who dwell on sin.

[G R 'Scott' Cundiff]

Absolutely love those guys. I still listen to old statesmen recordings and I sing some of their songs still!

The youtube fellow did use the wrong picture though. Jake Hess sang lead at that time, the picture s showing Jack Toney.

What makes you think it's Jake Hess singing? Aside from his absolutely distinctive wonderful lead voice heard in one of the solos in the song, that is.

[Jim Chabot]

What makes you think it's Jake Hess singing? Aside from his absolutely distinctive wonderful lead voice heard in one of the solos in the song, that is.

Come on now. Don't tell me that you can't pick Jake out of a crowd!

So far the only guy that has ever been able to fool me is Gary McSpadden, he can do a dead on perfect Jake imitation. But then again, Hovie actually paid him to imitate Jake at one point.

Love Jake's voice, the unusual combination of perfect diction and an east Alabama accent is a neat thing!

Even more than that I loved Jake's sincerity. Never heard a bad word about that man, not once. And a good friend of mine was Jake's pastor when he passed he said and I quote. "You know as a Pastor one of the things that gets old real fast is visiting sick folks in the hospital, especially the ones that don't like you. I've got to tell you that the 45 days that I spent visiting Jake was an incredible privilege and a blessing to me, that man is the real deal!"

Enough of that, we had better get back to our regularly scheduled program.

So how about that Denver Crumpler? Best tenor that that the statesmen ever had!

[Ryan Scott]

I know one great pastor nearby has affirmed over and over again the value to his congregation hearing Nina Gunter declare at District Assembly. "I've repented more since I was sanctified than I did before."

There is a line between sinless perfection and unavoidable sinfulness; from reading this thread, it seems like both sides are trying to define the same position between the two with terms from one side or the other. Both sides seem to be reacting to the terms and not the intent.

I don't see much, if any, disagreement here.

From my perspective, I have no problem praying the BCP prayer, because I view it as an affirmation of my continued commitment to God. I have sinned against God in thought, word, and deed - I've also done so unknowingly and through omission. Christ dies to forgive my sins and I have long ago accepted that forgiveness, but it's powerfully redemptive to continue to confess my weakness and God's strong grace.

I do think it's important to make sure the audience or congregation, whomever they may be, is well informed of salvation and sin theology before using the terms most associated with either side. I can pray the BCP prayer and understand what I mean, but I doubt everyone could do so. Likewise, I can talk about my already completed repentance and thoroughly confuse some.

[Hans Deventer]

We most certainly may my friend! While I was describing the effects that this doctrine has on so many people, I would never attribute a view of anything other than an incredibly loving God to you.

Please bear in mind that one of those so affected is my wife. The pain that I have felt for her as she struggles with the concept of a God who is loving toward her affects me greatly. I will engage this which I feel is the doctrine of demons with fervor and with every breath that I have.

Understood. Thanks for clarifying!

Now let me try again. I'll keep it personal, but of course I don't mean to say He only loves me. I'm sure you know, but I can't be too explicit!

This wonderful, loving, graceful God, who took figuratively and literally great pains to save me and show His love, accepts me as His child. From the day I was born, His Spirit seeks to draw me to Him. Though I've never really wandered away, at age 15, I was caught in the guilt trap. I heard of his forgiveness, but felt I wasn't worth receiving it because even though He loved me, I still sinned! It took a few years but while in Youth for Christ, it finally dawned on me that God already knows me inside out and still loves me.
This concept has been deepened by our very own Brad & Roland, and books by Brennan Manning and Henri Nouwen.

There was and is a second strand though: the telos. John Wesley rightly pointed us towards the goal of salvation: Christlikeness. Holiness. In way, for me the road was paved by Dietrich Bonhoeffer and his concept of cheap and costly grace. So against the background of God's unconditional love, of understanding my identity as a beloved child of God, I also got a clearer view of where I still fall short of God's goal for my life. And that is were repentance comes in. Not fearful. Not like the prodigal son, despising of himself. I know who I am. I don't doubt the love of God. But still, I've at least said things I should not have said. Of which you can find sufficient examples on NazNet to satisfy any inquiry.

So here I am. "Approaching God’s throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need." For "we have a great high priest who has ascended into heaven, Jesus the Son of God. [...] we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet he did not sin. "

I'm not caught in a guilt trap, nor blind for my shortcomings and at times failing to live up to God's intentions for me.

You know, that's one of the things I like about Brennan Manning. He so honestly writes about God's love for him, even when he was literally lying in the gutter, drunk. He never spares himself or his foolishness, and always exalts the love of God. Now I don't believe in Luther's "simul justus et peccator". I'm a Wesleyan. I believe in the grace of God to transfer lives. I also believe Wesley was right when he said that few maintained the blessing for longer than 2 or 3 years. But still, God wants to sanctify us. This story would need more pages still but I hope this clarifies some.

[Benjamin Burch]

I don't think you are using this verse in proper context. according to the fuller text, it seems those who are passing judgment need to repent of it since they are receiving God's kindness and grace. I have no problem with that. I think you are 180 on this in that even after i have repented you say I have not and need to contunue repenting. Like a dog chasing its tail. When I am praying I should have been feeding the hungry and when I am feeding the hungry I should have been praying. This (human)judgment is what Paul is condemning.

This was certainly the reading in earlier Protestant exegesis of Romans, especially around the middle of the 20th Century.

While most scholars have held that Paul is addressing Jews throughout the chapter, a minority has held that he turns to a Jewish interlocutor only in 2:17, and that 21:1-6 is therefore addressed to anyone, whether Jew or a pagan moralist, who judges the sins of his or her neighbor. (p197)

However, most newer scholarship I have read suggests otherwise (Gathercole, Watson, Esler, Campbell - although in his own way - and Wright's most recent work). I think Francis Watson articulate best what is actually being communicated. While I disagree with Watson to a degree on the overall theology of Paul in Romans, and also on how Romans 2 ultimately functions within this, the thrust of the following I am in full agreement with:

In the chapter as a whole, Paul's argument is that his Jewish dialogue partner is falsely reliant on "the riches of [God's] kindness and forbearance and patience" (v.4), on the priority of the Jew in regard to salvation (cf. vv.6-11), on posssession and knowledge of the law (vv. 17-24), and on circumcision (vv. 25-29). The Judaism that Paul here opposes is founded on the electing grace of God as manifested in the covenant signs of Torah and circumcision. For Paul, this position is undermined on the human side by transgression of the law and on the divine side by the impartiality of God's eschatological judgment.

If that is the argument of Romans 2, then a certain role-reversal has taken place. Theologies in the Reformation tradition have invested heavily in the view that Paul teaches salvation by grace alone, in opposition to the supposedly Jewish and Pelagian view that we are saved by our own mora strivings... however [here] we encounter more or less the opposite of this familiar dichotomy... Here... it is the Jewish interlocutor who is committed to salvation by grace alone, and Paul who teaches salvation by obedience to the law.

Paul is chastising the interlocutor not for judging, but for judging others for sinning while doing the very same things. Paul appears to have no problem with this "human judgment", but instead with someone claiming it applies to someone else but not to them, while they continue on in sin.

For Paul, this was spitting in the face of God's kindness, when God's kindness was not to save them in spite of sin, but to bring them to a repentant heart.

Thus, I would say I used the verse correctly. God gives us kindness, and that kindness is meant to lead us to repentance.