http://www.wesleyan.org/gc/memorials
Read the White Paper on Denominational Reinvention
http://www.wesleyan.org/gc/memorials
Read the White Paper on Denominational Reinvention
Wow. Got as far as the merging with us and the consummation of 2013 and about fell out of my chair. Sounds like they are serious. I like the top down approach and was fascinated by the idea that the generals did not see any insurmountable problems. I see at least two big ones, but maybe not insurmountable.
1. Their position on scripture is different from ours and we are already fighting about the issue. I think they would have to come our way.
2. The Article on Holiness in the COTN is so politically charged that it is hard for me to see how to get around it. (I think their article is superior to ours, it is certainly better written) I would like to see us go their way
Again, wow.... Thanks Scott
Fear not those who argue but those who dodge. -- Marie von Ebner-Eschenbach
Settled. We use our Article on Scripture and their article on Sanctification. Wasn't that easy?Originally Posted by Craig Laughlin
Although both denominations may not be too far off base from agreement on either one. From the White Paper:
In December 2009, the Wesleyan General Superintendents opened
dialogue about merger with their Nazarene counterparts, revealing mutual interest in further conversation. Both leadership
teams identified non-negotiables they believed their respective denominations would bring to the table. None were found
that were deemed to be insurmountable.
"Love without holiness disintegrates into sentimentality. Personal integrity is lost. But holiness without love is not holiness at all. In spite of its label, it displays harshness, judgmentalism, a critical spirit, and all its capacity for discrimination end in nit-picking and divisiveness."-Mildred Bangs Wynkoop
As a former Wesleyan, this made my jaw drop open. I think there are a lot of positives to this. Keep praying.
Wait a minute, this document is dated 2010. Haven't we already explored a merger and since decided that cooperation between holiness denominations would be preferable?
Is this old news?
-Jim
To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.
Garrison Keillor
I noticed that ~
Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth. 1 John 3:18
There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. 1 John 4:18a
Become an organ donor ~ donatelife.net ~ www.organdonor.gov
I guess it is to some extent. I see a note that this paper was presented in 2010 and is now included on their Memorials page to give insight into the reasoning behind the current Memorials that will be presented to their General Conference.
It's not as big a deal as I thought...although it is influencing the direction of their General Conference this summer.
Is a "memorial" the same thing as a "resolution?"
My reading so far seems to indicate that the reverse may be true. I'm reading in numerous places an emphasis on biblical authority with a ready willingness to "relanguage" their statement on holiness.
-Jim
To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.
Garrison Keillor
If there is to be a merger, I agree with you. Like Stew, I'm not sure what we would gain though from a rational point of view. Then again, from a John 17 point of view, less division is always positive.
For my district it doesn't matter, there are no Wesleyan Churches in the Netherlands.
"No scripture can mean that God is not love, or that his mercy is not over all his works" (John Wesley - Free Grace, 26)
Wow. It would be so great if we merged together. We are so close in so many ways. I wonder what the new name would be? The Holiness Church, Church of the Holiness People, God's Holiness Church, True Life Holiness Connection, hmm....
What about "The Heretic Church of Christ"? That would in one sweep have made all accusations of heresy a moot point and we can just do what a church should do.
"No scripture can mean that God is not love, or that his mercy is not over all his works" (John Wesley - Free Grace, 26)
It may sound as a joke and to some extent it is, but in another way, it is not. I had to think of Peter Rollins' parable. Very short, it goes like this:
The last person ever sentenced to death was a young man accused of distorting
the image of God by his false teachings.
He was imprisoned and tortured to extract a confession.While he admitted his
wrongdoing, he would not offer repentance. The condemned man was brought
before the court to hear his sentence. The judge listened to the testimonies and
announced these teachings could easily lead to conflict and disagreement with
the one true church. Thus the heretic must suffer death by fire in order that he
might repent before passing to the other side and so escape the eternal flames
of hell. This would also silence the false doctrine he was teaching. The heretic
had no final words at sentencing except the following: “The charges made
against me are quite true, and I do not plead for my life. But if it would please
the court, on the day of my execution I would like to choose from among the
gathered crowd the one who would light the fires upon which to die.”
The judge thought this fair, since a common man would put him to death, after
common people were whom he had led astray.
On the day of the execution, the judge honored his word. The young heretic’s
eyes darted through the gathered crowd from his place tied to the stake, and
people began to look down in discomfort. Eventually the whole marketplace
went silent. “I stand before you now, helpless as a child, condemned to death
for heresy,” the man said to the silent crowd. “I am guilty as charged, for I have
held a distorted, muddied, and inaccurate view of the divine. I have only one
request: that I be set alight by one among you who is innocent of this charge.”
"No scripture can mean that God is not love, or that his mercy is not over all his works" (John Wesley - Free Grace, 26)
The heart of the merger discussion starts on page 22.
That would certainly be full-circle. My dad was a Wesleyan Methodist pastor before joining with the Church of the Nazarene on profession of faith. He stated that the Wesleyans (at the time) had lost their way regarding holiness and the CoTN (at the time) had the superior holiness message. At least that's how I perceived the story.
This looks serious. This looks good to me.
Two quick observations: 1) the Wesleyans' plan seems to be quite North America focused; it does not appear that world missions or "an international church" is as much a part of their experience as it is ours (but I may be wrong on that perception as it is based simply on the white paper), 2) it is interesting that their BGS is suggesting a modification of their stance on alcohol consumption; it appears that a Wesleyan member is now required to disavow alcohol use upon joining the church but there is a move to move this out of the membership vows.
Hmmm. I can't help but wonder if our "church future" group - can't think of their specific name - will not have something that dove tails with this? That would be cool.
Zero impact for me. Nearest Wesleyan church is 3 hours away and only like one that would be on our district.
I want to merge with the Free Methodist. The're all over out here and great people not to mention SPU with it's new Nazarene President.
Fear not those who argue but those who dodge. -- Marie von Ebner-Eschenbach
That crossed my mind too. Maybe coordinated somewhat? GA could be quite interesting.
Interesting paper....they really have thought through a lot of details.....I'll certainly give them that
"Love without holiness disintegrates into sentimentality. Personal integrity is lost. But holiness without love is not holiness at all. In spite of its label, it displays harshness, judgmentalism, a critical spirit, and all its capacity for discrimination end in nit-picking and divisiveness."-Mildred Bangs Wynkoop
The Wesleyan church is strong in Wisconsin where we are weak, they are weak in Arkansas where we are decent. Bring in the Free Methodists too... wow, that'd be great. I'd vote yea!
Wesleyan Free Nazarenes... Compromise.
Last edited by Craig Laughlin; April 13th, 2012 at 04:39 PM. Reason: emoticon - to avoid confusion.
Fear not those who argue but those who dodge. -- Marie von Ebner-Eschenbach
Wesleyan Nazarene Methodists
"Love without holiness disintegrates into sentimentality. Personal integrity is lost. But holiness without love is not holiness at all. In spite of its label, it displays harshness, judgmentalism, a critical spirit, and all its capacity for discrimination end in nit-picking and divisiveness."-Mildred Bangs Wynkoop
On a more serious note, the Dutch Reformed Church used to be the main protestant church in the Netherlands (till a merger a few years ago). Through time, some broke away but there was a conservative group that were determined to stay. They formed an alliance, had their own meetings, own magazine, own organisation. But they were still part of the Dutch Reformed Church.
So these things are possible, if people really want to stay. Of course, the rest of the Church has to be willing to allow them this, and they themselves have to accept the regular authority in the church, in which they also partook. In case of the Dutch Reformed Church, the highest authority was the National Synod. This group also sent their delegates to that synod.
In some places, there was both a regular Dutch Reformed Church and a so called "Gereformeerde Bond" Church. Both had their own pastor, church board, building. And in general, when for instance the Synod decided that gays would be able to become pastors in the Dutch Reformed Church, it was still the local church that called a pastor and they were never forced to accept anyone they did not like.
I think that though perhaps not ideal, to have a church within a church, it sure beats a split.
"No scripture can mean that God is not love, or that his mercy is not over all his works" (John Wesley - Free Grace, 26)
Herein might lie the problem to such a "resolution"
"Love without holiness disintegrates into sentimentality. Personal integrity is lost. But holiness without love is not holiness at all. In spite of its label, it displays harshness, judgmentalism, a critical spirit, and all its capacity for discrimination end in nit-picking and divisiveness."-Mildred Bangs Wynkoop
I will assume, just for the purposes of this statement only that you are 100% right and thus all CNs are 100% wrong. Your tactical error is that you underestimate who you are dealing with. You are dealing with the ones who have chosen not to walk away. Continued underestimation of your opponent will result in your eventual defeat regardless of who is right.
First off, Dan, you should realize that based on your willingness to converse about these things here and not sling accusations that just like the most vocal members of the Concerned Nazarenes, like Jim, I do not consider you to be part of this group. You are correct that not all who consider themselves "concerned" use the same shameful tactics as Manny and Tim, but I do not believe that you cannot simply separate the concerns themselves from the tactics used to express them. The most vocal members of the group use these tactics and that all falls under "being in the group" IMO. You do not therefore I do not consider you to be a part. (I mean this as a compliment by the way) If you want to be considered a Concerned Nazarene, then of course I doubt my reasoning here will sway you. I do disagree with you that anyone has been underestimated. I am glad that you are commited to "sticking it out" as it were, however if the church decides on an identity (perhaps GA will be instrumental in this) and you and others continue to rage against it, then I believe it to be a act of division to keep raging against church authority. I don't underestimate the Concerned Nazarenes, I simply believe them to be wrong about who they think we, as a denomination are and once again, that includes their tactics. I believe that the many who stand against them are far more in line with our true denominational identity. Could I be wrong? Sure. Wouldn't be the first time, however if I am and our leadership makes it official that we are to be everything that the CN's demand that we be (tactics and all), then I will not stick around trying to divide the church with my opinions. I will do the Christian thing and leave.
"Love without holiness disintegrates into sentimentality. Personal integrity is lost. But holiness without love is not holiness at all. In spite of its label, it displays harshness, judgmentalism, a critical spirit, and all its capacity for discrimination end in nit-picking and divisiveness."-Mildred Bangs Wynkoop
Tactics are a problem, and I fear they may possibly harm the hearing of the concerned view. I must also admit that I wonder if our view would have been heard without the bomb throwing. Doesn't make it right, I'm not saying that. But lets be honest, Luther had problems that he felt overshadowed authority. Wesley left the Anglican Church, and Bresee left the Methodists. I've read some of Wesley's letters where he was incredibly caustic and biting over theological differences. I believe that it was Paul who stood against Peter face to face because he was wrong.
I don't like this sort of thing, but sadly I don't think that we can say that it doesn't happen from time to time.
Depending upon your intent and import, I would challenge your use of "continue to rage against it." Currently there is no clarity, despite the sure footing that each camp is certain to be standing upon. Over time I have come to the conclusion that anyone who says that they know who we are and have been, is more than likely posturing their own view. Regardless, I think that we all agree that we are in flux, currently sailing without a rudder. Secondness is nearly dead and we aren't certain which path best fits our aim of promoting holiness.
I pray that through the Committee on the Nazarene Future, and the committee currently studying our stance on innerancy that we find our leadership speaking clearly and definitively on where we are going. I will be glad to see a day when we can each decide whether we are on board or not. I truly hope that our leaders search their hearts and lean upon the Spirit of God to select the path that God would have us travel.
Until then, I am willing to patiently wait.
I'm absolutely with you here. Whatever the position of the leadership, we must be willing to accept it or move on.
-Jim
To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.
Garrison Keillor
Correction, your honour! John Wesley never left the Anglican Church, and in fact believed he was blessed with such a long life to make sure that the Methodists never would. Of course, not that long after he passed away, they did.
"No scripture can mean that God is not love, or that his mercy is not over all his works" (John Wesley - Free Grace, 26)
I stand quickly corrected sir!
Not sure why I typed that in there. While it fit the progression of thought, I did have an inkling that it was actually inaccurate.
-Jim
To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.
Garrison Keillor
Psh, I'm more Wesleyan than any of you!
- Ben
Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death! And to those in the tombs, bestowing life!
Χριστὸς ἀνέστη ἐκ νεκρῶν, θανάτῳ θάνατον πατήσας! καὶ τοῖς ἐν τοῖς μνήμασι, ζωὴν χαρισάμενος!
You've got that right!Psh, I'm more Wesleyan than any of you!
Glad your happy, way, way, way, way, way,waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyy, over there.
-Jim
To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.
Garrison Keillor
The Anglican Church left Him ...
The Anglican church has left most everyone here in the US. Then again they were born out of a sexual misconduct scandal.
While I'm glad for those who are drawn closer to our Lord through that particular church, I would be loath to look in that direction for legacy.
But that's just me.
-Jim
To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.
Garrison Keillor
- Ben
Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death! And to those in the tombs, bestowing life!
Χριστὸς ἀνέστη ἐκ νεκρῶν, θανάτῳ θάνατον πατήσας! καὶ τοῖς ἐν τοῖς μνήμασι, ζωὴν χαρισάμενος!
Dan, I think we've already established that from the very beginning, there were at least two strands in the CotN, the urban and the rural. (See Tim Smith "Called Unto Holiness", page 28). So when it comes to claiming what we've always been, both are right. Though objectively, Article IV is not a full inerrancy statement as they would like it and even though some groups have always believed it was, they cannot claim it has always been our official point of view. If they do, at that specific point, they would be 100% wrong. As I wrote before, it seems they realise this because they want to change the article.
What I see is that there enough people who are concerned, but it seems that most of them, are also concerned about the tactics of the most vocal CN's (using the word as they use it themselves). Myself, I see no road to a compromise with the CN's because they do refuse any authority whatsoever, but I definitely see a road ahead with concerned people like you. The Church should always take seriously people who bring forth a concern, but are also willing to listen.
I don't know if underestimation is a part of this. It's just what I see. But my motto when it comes to a negative estimation is always, "I'd love to be proven wrong".
"No scripture can mean that God is not love, or that his mercy is not over all his works" (John Wesley - Free Grace, 26)
Or Wesleyan Methodist Church of the Nazarene (Kansas City)
"Love without holiness disintegrates into sentimentality. Personal integrity is lost. But holiness without love is not holiness at all. In spite of its label, it displays harshness, judgmentalism, a critical spirit, and all its capacity for discrimination end in nit-picking and divisiveness."-Mildred Bangs Wynkoop
I suggest that churches be allowed to keep their current names, but add (sort of like we require at least a small print "Church of the Nazarene") add "Global Wesleyan Alliance."
So, Skyline Wesleyan would add "Global Wesleyan Alliance" to their stationary, bulletins, etc.
First Church of the Nazarene would do the same.
Then - new churches, or churches of either parent denomination would have the option to change their name to: Skyline Wesleyan Alliance or First Wesleyan Alliance, etc.
See, problem solved!
Unless, of course, sister denomination Christian Missionary Alliance joined the merger. Then you might have a church named Skyline Christian Missionary Alliance Global Wesleyan Alliance.
Bingo! With the C&MA on board we become truly worldwide with a rich tradition in missions. Then it's two to one in favor of innerancy. Then again my alliance friends have no idea who Wesley is.Unless, of course, sister denomination Christian Missionary Alliance joined the merger. Then you might have a church named Skyline Christian Missionary Alliance Global Wesleyan Alliance.
-Jim
To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.
Garrison Keillor
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