Wesleyan Church General Conference White Paper proposes Nazarene/Wesleyan/Other Merger

[Michael Flowers]

I've seen this fallacy quoted often. It is a true statement only if you trace our roots back to the 19th century and stop there. You have to ignore a ton of church history to make this argument. To hold to this argument you have the difficult task of explaining why Nazarenes, and much of the rest of the holiness movement rejected almost all of the Catholic/Anglican ritual and most of the sacraments.

It is not a fallacy. If you read the Protestant theologies coming out of the Reformation and read the Catholic theologies of the era, we agree much more closely on many of our important things (things in the Manual like Christ, the Father, the Holy Spirit, Justification/Sanctification) with the Catholic theologies than the Protestant ones (primarily we disagree with the Catholics on practice such as prayers to saints and Mary, baptism and the eucharist when we do disagree, not on matters of faith). A point of proof is the Council of Trent's statement on Justification which is by grace alone. I offer the following quotes:

"The Synod furthermore declares, that in adults, the beginning of the said Justification is to be derived from the prevenient grace of God, through Jesus Christ, that is to say, from His vocation, whereby, without any merits existing on their parts, they are called; that so they, who by sins were alienated from God, may be disposed through His quickening and assisting grace, to convert themselves to their own justification, by freely assenting to and co-operating with that said grace: in such sort that, while God touches the heart of man by the illumination of the Holy Ghost, neither is man himself utterly without doing anything while he receives that inspiration, forasmuch as he is also able to reject it; yet is he not able, by his own free will, without the grace of God, to move himself unto justice in His sight. Whence, when it is said in the sacred writings: Turn ye to me, and I will turn to you, we are admonished of our liberty; and when we answer; Convert us, O Lord, to thee, and we shall be converted, we confess that we are prevented by the grace of God. "

"Now they (adults) are disposed unto the said justice, when, excited and assisted by divine grace, conceiving faith by hearing, they are freely moved towards God, believing those things to be true which God has revealed and promised,-and this especially, that God justifies the impious by His grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus; and when, understanding themselves to be sinners, they, by turning themselves, from the fear of divine justice whereby they are profitably agitated, to consider the mercy of God, are raised unto hope, confiding that God will be propitious to them for Christ's sake; and they begin to love Him as the fountain of all justice; and are therefore moved against sins by a certain hatred and detestation, to wit, by that penitence which must be performed before baptism: lastly, when they purpose to receive baptism, [Page 34] to begin a new life, and to keep the commandments of God. Concerning this disposition it is written; He that cometh to God, must believe that he is, and is a rewarder to them that seek him; and, Be of good faith, son, thy sins are forgiven thee; and, The fear of the Lord driveth out sin; and, Do penance, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost; and, Going, therefore, teach ye all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost; finally, Prepare your hearts unto the Lord. "

"And whereas the Apostle saith, that man is justified by faith and freely, those words are to be understood in that sense which the perpetual consent of the Catholic Church hath held and expressed; to wit, that we are therefore said to be justified by faith, because faith is the beginning of human salvation, the foundation, and the root of all Justification; without which it is impossible to please God, and to come unto the fellowship of His sons: but we are therefore said to be justified freely, because that none of those things which precede justification-whether faith or works-merit the grace itself of justification. For, if it be a grace, it is not now by works, otherwise, as the same Apostle says, grace is no more grace."

"Having, therefore, been thus justified, and made the friends and domestics of God, advancing from virtue to virtue, they are renewed, as the Apostle says, day by day; that is, by mortifying the members of their own flesh, and by presenting them as instruments of justice unto sanctification, they, through the observance of the commandments of God and of the Church, faith co-operating with good works, increase in that justice which they have received through the grace of Christ, and are still further justified, as it is written; He that is just, let him be justified still; and again, Be not afraid to be justified even to death; and also, Do you see that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. And this increase of justification holy Church begs, when she prays, "Give unto us, O Lord, increase of faith, hope, and charity."

"CANON III.-If any one saith, that without the prevenient inspiration of the Holy Ghost, and without his help, man can believe, hope, love, or be penitent as he ought, so as that the grace of Justification may be bestowed upon him; let him be anathema."

Source: http://history.hanover.edu/texts/trent/ct06.html

This is just one area in which we are quite similar to Catholicism. I am not arguing that we are Catholic, but I do not know any Church historian that would say that we are 100% Protestant, which is what I was arguing in my response. The Anglican Reformation really evolved separate from the Swiss and German Reformations. It evolved for a vastly different reason and not as an actual Reformation of the Church. It remained quite Catholic in many regards and it is from this tradition that we are birthed. How can we be truly Protestant if we are not Anabaptists, Calvinists (Zwinglian), or Lutheran? Those are the movements which members of the Church clergy sought, and which the people cried for. The Reformation of England was totally political and based on the desires of a King.

[Please note that I am not attempting to argue that we are not Protestant in certain important ways such as our view of sacraments and other important areas. I merely argue that we are not "seriously, thoroughly, and unequivocally protestant" which sounds to me like a statement that we are 100% protestant.]

[Michael Flowers]

John Wesley preached and published a sermon on this subject "The Ministerial Office", It appears that he states that the call to preach does not neccisarily give the right to administer sacraments. I also think he concedes that we have combined the offices for human convenience (imagine paying a separate salary for all three offices).

Wesley did state that, I agree. Much of this is influenced by the fact that he never intended to establish a group apart from the Anglican Church. He did not ordain anyone to the ministry and thus the sacraments could not be rightly administered by many of his preachers/leaders. It wasn't until he was basically forced into the position by the Anglican Church that he started ordaining leaders to distribute the sacrament of communion. (I would have to brush up some more on my Wesley history to remember exactly word for word what happened to cause this). Thank you for making sure we were considering this part of Wesley (because I truly was not yet in this conversation).

[Dan Henderson]

Fallacy was too strong of a word Michael. Thanks for the response.

[Michael Flowers]

Fallacy was too strong of a word Michael. Thanks for the response.

Yea, but it caused me to explain myself better which I should have done the first time. If I have one noticeable fault in my discussions with people it is that I don't always communicate what I mean well and stop when I should continue on. Keep making me stretch myself, Dan, its good for me.

[Benjamin Burch]

It remained quite Catholic in many regards and it is from this tradition that we are birthed. How can we be truly Protestant if we are not Anabaptists, Calvinists (Zwinglian), or Lutheran? Those are the movements which members of the Church clergy sought, and which the people cried for. The Reformation of England was totally political and based on the desires of a King.

Excellent post, Michael. I would however, disagree to an extent with this segment. I believe the whole Reformation was every bit as political and cultural as it was theological - if not more so.

[Michael Flowers]

Excellent post, Michael. I would however, disagree to an extent with this segment. I believe the whole Reformation was every bit as political and cultural as it was theological - if not more so.

To be sure, but in most every other case it had to do with the perceived injustice being done to the common people for the good of the "Pope". Indeed society underwent change that impacted the church (in each reformation: German, Swiss, etc.), but in the case of the English Reformation, Henry set out to stick it to the Pope. He was not out to change the Church but rather to transfer authority over the Church to himself in order to get what he wanted. In this case it the English Reformation was different than the others which were far less focused and intentional. (my opinion based on studies these past three months on this era, but I admit I could be wrong or over stating this)