Taking A Different Thread in Another Direction

[Pete Vecchi]

This was a quote from the thread about megachurches and attitudes towards them:

One thing that really stuck out with me is that they have four choirs and many opportunities for musicians and special music. Something that many smaller churches no longer offer because they want to look polished.

That comment got me to thinking about music quality in churches, but would have taken the other thread in a direction I don't believe it was intended to go. So, starting here, I'd like to discuss the idea that smaller churches no longer offer opportunities for musicians and special music "because they want to look polished."

As the pastor of a very small church (and as someone who has visited quite a few small churches recently), I don't know that the issue is necessarily about wanting to "look polished" as much as it is about not having people with enough musical talent or knowledge to do said music in such a way that it won't be more of a distraction from worship than it would be an enhancement to worship.

There is an illustration that people give to describe something that makes them feel uncomfortable. It is that something is like "fingernails on a blackboard." That sound bothers a lot of people. Some people can't stand the sound of the squeaking made by hands on a balloon.

For me, the sound of fingernails on a blackboard really doesn't phase me at all. The sound of squeaking balloons is only slightly worse than that to me. But there is a sound that really makes my skin crawl and sets my teeth on edge--a metal rake against a sidewalk. It often makes my face involuntarily grimace.

There's only one other sound that makes me react in a similar way--including with the facial grimace: it's the sound of sour musical notes.

Personally, I'd rather hear no music than poorly done music in worship services.

[Michael Flowers]

I think the requirement of quality depends upon the individual congregation. If you have a congregation with people who are fairly critical of music and know great music when they hear it, then quality is probably more necessary than in a church that values worshiping with the resources that it has available, regardless of their ability/talent level.

Personally, I would rather use the talent that is present in my church, engaging the people in service and worship of God, than simply let them sit in the pew every week because we have deemed them to be "not good enough". Make a joyful noise to the Lord!

[Michael Flowers]

And I say that as someone who studied music in college and is a musician/vocalist. I love good music and cringe when I hear sour notes, but worship isn't about the sound, it is about the heart.

[Pete Vecchi]

And I say that as someone who studied music in college and is a musician/vocalist. I love good music and cringe when I hear sour notes, but worship isn't about the sound, it is about the heart.

I too, studied music in college--as an applied vocal music major. It's been over 30 years since I gave up that major (God was leading me in a different direction). I have come to believe more and more since that time that it's all fine and good for people to "make a joyful noise unto the Lord" (that is Biblical after all). I would just prefer that they do it either in a more private setting or else as something other than what is supposed to be music in a corporate worship setting.

The noises can detract from my worship experience, regardless of how much my heart wants to worship. For instance, I was in a service recently (not in my home church) where during every single song, an elderly lady took out a tambourine and "played" it--at the same tempo regardless of the different tempo of the different songs. I'm sorry, but while that may have been her truly worshiping God in a participatory way, it was a major deterrent for me in my effort to truly worship.

Taking this out of the area of music, let me illustrate it another way. I can be appreciating God's handiwork in some type of scenic, outdoor setting. I can be doing it with a group of people, worshiping God. But the entire time of worship is detracted from for me if all of a sudden I start smelling cigarette smoke from someone--even someone who isn't in the crowd, but who just happens to be nearby.

The same way that one person smoking can detract from a worship experience of a group of non-smokers is similar for me to how one person playing a tambourine poorly in the midst of congregational singing can detract from the worship experience of a larger group of people.

Maybe it's just me. I readily admit the possibility that I could be a musical snob. At the same time, I'd be less than truthful if I said that these types of things during times of worshiping through music didn't bother me. One thing I should add, however, is that a poorly played tambourine doesn't make my face involuntarily cringe the way that some sour notes I've heard in church have done.

[Dan Henderson]

I can play my IPOD like nobody's business. Both my son and my daughter studied music. My son can play a piece technically perfect, my daughter, not so much. Guess who has the passion and the interpretation.

I think that church is where one should be honing their gifts. I would rather here a few missed notes from a person passionately offering their gifts to God than a polished musician who doesn't serve God. I've seen enough shows. I can get one of those much cheaper elsewhere.

[Michael Flowers]

I too, studied music in college--as an applied vocal music major.

I lasted six weeks in that very track before I surrendered to God.

I must admit that I greatly prefer musical excellence, however, I am to a point where I am willing to put up with someone passionately worshiping our God in spite of their lack of talent. Passion always trumps excellence in a worship setting. Someone who is passionate about God is far more likely to help someone else connect to the Father than someone who is just up there for fun and showing off their gift. It's not a public performance, it is a time of celebrating the greatness of God.

Perhaps I am biased this direction simply because I have been in far too many services where people enjoyed the show and forgot that they were there to bask in the glory of God.

[John Kennedy]

I'm the music director in a small church (about 100 +/-). We are more formal/directed (printed order of service, hymns) but certainly not stuffy. On a good Sunday I have about 15-16 in my choir - I joke about having a praise team with a pipe organ, but they produce a fairly decent sound. I've got an excellent organist/pianist - God only knows what SoCal church music would be like if it weren't for some excellent Seventh Day Adventist musicians who like to pick up a little extra $$$ by working on Sunday.

One of the things I like about what I'm doing is the freedom to use a pretty wide variety of music - vocal, choral, instrumental, and congregational - we do some praise music, some gospel, some contemporary sounding material, some semi classical. In a 4-5 week period of time special music will range from Panis Angelicus to Go Down Moses to southern country gospel.

I use as much solo and ensemble vocal and instrumental as I can - I've got some kids, especially, whose talents and gifts I want to help develop. I'm loving what I'm doing, one of the biggest reasons being that I don't have people breathing down my neck to replicate camp meeting or Calvary Chapel.

A lot of my approach to church music ties in with my belief about worship - a drama performed for an audience of one in which the people in the congregation are the actors and the musicians and worship leaders are the prompters.

[Dana Grant]

Let me tell you a little bit about my church. I must admit that I used to be somewhat of a musical snob myself. And to this day, I still cringe inside when I hear sour notes....

But, then we started attending this church.

We have one woman who loves to sing. She wanted to become a part of the worship team. She has epilepsy, and she has a definite mental disability, mild, but noticeable. She stumbles sometimes when she leaves the platform and has to have someone to hold on to when she goes down the steps. But she loves to sing. Our worship leader is an accomplished musician herself, but this does not keep her from including this woman in the worship team lineup once a month. They do lower the volume of her microphone a little, but she never knows it, and she sings her heart out. No one else knows it either. Only a few of us. HOWEVER, she is also placed on the schedule to sing a solo once in a while, as well. You can see her singing with pride when she sings. And everyone loves her and applauds her when she sings. No one makes her feel any less than excellent. That's the way people are at our church. And there are several of us who are more than capable musicians. We are very blessed.

There's another young gentleman in his 30s who has Down syndrome that goes to our church. He loves the Lord and also wanted to sing in the worship team. The only problem is that people cannot understand him at all. You have to concentrate very much to understand what he is saying. Our music director, in her loving wisdom, told him -- You know, ____, here is what we really need. We would love it if you'd sit on the front row during the music part of the service and be my "worship team leader" in the congregation. You have the sweetest spirit and worship so freely every Sunday, and you are a blessing to so many people, that I'd love it if you'd be right on the front -- and I'm going to ask two other people to be on the front, as well -- one in the center, and one on the opposite side from where you sit- and that way we will have three worship leaders in the congregation that can set an example of worship for the rest of the congregation!" And she did. And he is the most faithful to take his position at the front of the congregation every Sunday. And he IS a blessing -- she wasn't just patronizing him -- we all LOVE watching him worship as he sings!! If everyone felt the presence of God like he does, it would be such a blessing to our whole congregation!!!


Now, I know that this would not work in every church. But in our little church (about 60-70 in attendance), it does work. We have the most loving people that I know, and they truly make you feel needed and loved, no matter if you're the best at something or not so great!! And no one complains -- and after church they genuinely feel it when they tell people "you did a great job today."

When I was choir director, I used to tell the choir members, "we want to present our BEST to the congregation, because when we don't, I believe it is a distraction from the worship time." I still believe that. If I wait until Sunday morning to rehearse something that I am supposed to sing, and I end up completely messing up the lyrics or the music -- well, people may be distracted by that because that is not what usually happens with me, because I'm usually prepared, and they have come to accept that. The same goes with many others in our church -- we are blessed to have so many musicians here. However, sometimes there are loved ones who aren't really able to do any better than they do, but they always do their best. And when they sing or play an instrument -- we are not distracted, because we love them, and we know they're doing their best. I still believe we should bring our best to the Lord -- and the Lord knows what our best is. And yes, sometimes their best is a little "rake on the concrete" sounding....


I wish I could bottle the compassion and love that we have found in our church -- and sell it. ha ha ha

Dana

(edit -- "pride" is probably not the correct word I should use in that first paragraph -- "excitement" "joy" -- words like that would probably be more appropriate)

[Dennis M. Scott]

In one of my first pastoral assignments there was a dear sweet lady who did everything unto the Lord. She was not attractive in appearance. She was old, and apparently had not gotten there gracefully. She remains the only parishioner I've ever had who came to me and offered to clean the toilets. She sang bass, and that not well. There wasn't anything she wouldn't do for the Lord. Naturally, she eagerly wanted to sing solos. There just about wasn't any way to prevent it. When she sang, even those of us who loved her had a difficult time not laughing. Invariably, she also would whistle at least one verse - and her whistling made the singing seem not quite so bad. Leaf rakes on the concrete would have been a huge improvement.

I can remember her "musical" contributions, but that's not what I remember most about her. I mainly recall her spirit, and her commitment to the Lord. She's gone on to heaven now, and I'm confident that if there are toilets in heaven (? !), Chris signed up early - because she was happiest when serving. I'm also convicted that in heaven we will have ears that make all voices sound like angels.

[Mike Schutz]

Returning to one of the issues Pete first raised in the opening of this thread, that smaller churches offer the opportunity for musicians:

1. For sixteen years I directed the summer ministry program at one of our colleges. Every year we found that the students best equipped to travel for the college as pianists/keyboard were young people from smaller churches. In addition to the many years of lessons they had received, they also had experience in worship services - on praise teams and as accompanists. Students from smaller churches also knew how to play hymns. Students from larger churches tended not to have this same experience. We saw this same situation with students serving on chapel music groups.
2. My children were raised in a large church. When we left there in order for me to accept a pastoral assignment at a church 1/5 the size, our pastor told my children to take advantage of the many leadership responsibilities they would have at a smaller church. He was correct. My daughter immediately became a member of the praise team as a 9th grader, something she would never have been able to do at the larger church. My son became the group's percussionist as an 8th grader.

Small churches offer opportunities, including musical opportunities, that many large churches cannot. This is especially the case if the small church loves people enough to allow them to try new things, and not be afraid if it doesn't always work out. At our church, we have three teens on our praise team - keyboard, bass, and vocalist - and it is truly a blessing.

[Pete Vecchi]

Folks, I truly appreciate every one of the responses thus far. I want to respond, but just likely will not have the opportunity to do so in more than a passing way today. I will try to do so more fully tomorrow.

Just one thing I'd like to point out is that my intent is not to make anything I'm saying a hard, fast rule when dealing with church music. OF COURSE there should be times and cases when people should be able to hone their skills and otherwise make music to the Lord in congregational settings. My main point is that all too often though, it becomes commonplace (rather than the exception) for people to regularly use church as the place to make bad sounds intended to be music on a more or less regular basis.

Would we put up with other aspects of worship and/or other parts of church life being done poorly so easily? If the preacher mumbles all the time and can't be heard, how long would that preacher (who feels called by God) be likely to last in the ministry? If the congregation did not take care of the facilities and they always looked dirty, how long would people be likely continue attending that congregation? If a Sunday School teacher had a habit of yelling and screaming at children, how long would that teacher last in that position?

My point is one about competence in music, generally speaking. I am all for understanding about specific exceptions, but I tend to believe that they should be exceptions rather than the norm.

Thanks for the feedback thus far! I hope that people will keep it coming!

[Jim Franklin]

Loud volume does not equal qualith nor necessarily spirit filled passion. As an usher I sometimes have to step back in the foyer with the doors closed if the volume gets beyond my range of comfort.

[Jim Chabot]

I'm the music director in a small church (about 100 +/-). We are more formal/directed (printed order of service, hymns) but certainly not stuffy. On a good Sunday I have about 15-16 in my choir - I joke about having a praise team with a pipe organ, but they produce a fairly decent sound. I've got an excellent organist/pianist - God only knows what SoCal church music would be like if it weren't for some excellent Seventh Day Adventist musicians who like to pick up a little extra $$$ by working on Sunday.

One of the things I like about what I'm doing is the freedom to use a pretty wide variety of music - vocal, choral, instrumental, and congregational - we do some praise music, some gospel, some contemporary sounding material, some semi classical. In a 4-5 week period of time special music will range from Panis Angelicus to Go Down Moses to southern country gospel.

I use as much solo and ensemble vocal and instrumental as I can - I've got some kids, especially, whose talents and gifts I want to help develop. I'm loving what I'm doing, one of the biggest reasons being that I don't have people breathing down my neck to replicate camp meeting or Calvary Chapel.

A lot of my approach to church music ties in with my belief about worship - a drama performed for an audience of one in which the people in the congregation are the actors and the musicians and worship leaders are the prompters.

Just so that you know John. I want to be like you when I grow up! I have shamelessly stolen some of your ideas, I just wish that I had the knowledge and range of experience that you do. Then again, I still have time if I apply myself!

[Dennis M. Scott]

Jim,

Next time you're in Southern CA, you might want to attend John's church. I've only been there once, but I think you'd really fit in. You fit in a lot of places, and you'd appreciate John's church.

[Jim Chabot]

This was a quote from the thread about megachurches and attitudes towards them:



That comment got me to thinking about music quality in churches, but would have taken the other thread in a direction I don't believe it was intended to go. So, starting here, I'd like to discuss the idea that smaller churches no longer offer opportunities for musicians and special music "because they want to look polished."

As the pastor of a very small church (and as someone who has visited quite a few small churches recently), I don't know that the issue is necessarily about wanting to "look polished" as much as it is about not having people with enough musical talent or knowledge to do said music in such a way that it won't be more of a distraction from worship than it would be an enhancement to worship.

There is an illustration that people give to describe something that makes them feel uncomfortable. It is that something is like "fingernails on a blackboard." That sound bothers a lot of people. Some people can't stand the sound of the squeaking made by hands on a balloon.

For me, the sound of fingernails on a blackboard really doesn't phase me at all. The sound of squeaking balloons is only slightly worse than that to me. But there is a sound that really makes my skin crawl and sets my teeth on edge--a metal rake against a sidewalk. It often makes my face involuntarily grimace.

There's only one other sound that makes me react in a similar way--including with the facial grimace: it's the sound of sour musical notes.

Personally, I'd rather hear no music than poorly done music in worship services.

Perhaps I should have qualified my use of the term "smaller?" I used the term in contrast to a church well over 10,000 in attendance. What I had in mind were churches in the 200-500 range where they feel successful and are concerned that their appearance is key to their future success. It's probably not universal.

For a time we were looking for a church, and as the song goes "we searched the world over", mostly looking at churches in that size range. We were looking for a church large enough to be active yet small enough that you could actually get to know people.

Church after church and the same story, a praise team and that's it. No choir, no special music, no opportunity to serve unless you get into the clique. Yes on more than one occasion I heard that this was because they didn't have many people who were willing or talented enough. I heard this from the music director at the Alliance church where I had grown up. To which I started asking, what about this one or that one, I know these people, you have plenty of folks here who sing better than you do, really, why won't you give them opportunity? In every church, we came away with the same feeling, love appeared to be lacking.

Now if your thinking small churches? That's a horse of a different color. You are correct, it's nothing short of a miracle to have one person who plays piano in a church of 50-70 people. Generally there aren't many folks who can sing well and there aren't resources to help them. Maybe that's why I felt led to a small church. We had 18 folks at our church the first Sunday that we visited, we now run 30-40. We have no one who plays an instrument well enough to play for the congregation. All we have is me, and all I can do is sing and I'm pretty creative with sound and video stuff. But you know what, we have 6 people who are wiling to sing specials, sometimes I have to sing with them, sometimes I have to find soundtracks for them, but they are willing and we all love hearing them share their hearts. This Easter we actually managed to get a choir together, my wife sings soprano so we got a couple of girls to follow her, the pastor's wife sings alto, so a few more to follow her, and I sing tenor and we found four men to follow me. I've heard church choirs worse than we did. The biggest gain isn't in the quality of the music, we are building community as we support each other. I'm proud to be a part of our little church! If we ever get up to 200 or more, I hope that we never change the way we do music, it needs to be intramural, we need to find a place for any who wish to participate!

Last Sunday night I sang at a concert at our church in Providence. The offertory was played by one of the best pianist I have heard, his touch and sense of timing is incredible, sometimes i think he plays chords that have yet be named. He is the minister of music at the Nazarene church in Praia, Cape Verde. Near the end of the service they had an older woman play a special piano piece, this dear lady was the wife of a former pastor there now deceased, she is 87 years old and been playing piano there for 40 years. She is also one of the few white folks left there as the church has changed demographically over the years. She did ok, nothing special, but ok. When she finished, the congregation rose to their feet and applauded loudly. The pastor announce that they have several pianists at their church, and in case someone from another church was looking to steal a pianist, he wanted to give fair warning that Evelyn is ours! I love good music and I can hear if someone is five cents flat, but love is more important than the music.

Just my .02

[Pete Vecchi]

It seems as though I am the minority here. It's difficult for me to convey what I'm trying to get across.

First and foremost, I want to re-iterate that to occasionally have someone do special music who isn't "polished" or even "average" or better is fine, especially if there's a specific reason to do it.. I also realize that, especially in smaller congregations (meaning averaging 50 or fewer people for services) there simply often isn't a talent pool from which to draw. That's fine. We work with what we have. But that doesn't mean that we shouldn't try to improve, either.

Several years ago, a new staff member of our congregation and I (he has since re-located) were walking throughout the community where the church building is located to tell people about something specific going on at the church. We met a couple of people who said something about needing to find a church in the area, and one of the first questions they asked was about our music. Both the staff member and I were embarrassed to answer because our music was really pretty bad. But I guess sometimes the truth hurts. And those people never came to any of our services (although I readily admit that it's highly probable that it may have had nothing to do with our lack of quality music).

Sometimes I think that we should at this issue of church music from different angles. If we want to be a blessing to our little group of faithful attendees, and we know that they will be blessed if a certain person with little musical talent goes up front and belts out a song even though the musicality is of low quality, that's fine--for that small group of faithful attendees who may know that person and who realize the person's background and spiritual zeal. It might even be fine for people who are tone deaf, but not part of that small group of faithful attendees--not to mention the person singing/playing the music. But what about the other people we should be trying to reach? What if a first-time visitor came into the service that day? My guess is that if they were an unbeliever or if they were new to the area and looking for a church home, they very likely would not return--especially if worshiping through music was an important part of the service for them.

Let me try to give an example with something other than music.

At one time I was part of a small congregation which had a faithful member who almost always carried a tape measure in his pocket. If the pulpit or the communion table had to be moved for any reason, when it was put back into place, this man would bring out his tape measure to make sure that everything was properly arranged (preferably centered) down to the fraction of an inch. For him, it was a matter of symmetry; if things weren't centered properly, it bothered him.

Now imagine what it would be like for him if he came in and saw a different piece of furniture faced improperly, re-set in an off-centered position, etc., week after week. Each week it was something different. Or suppose there was a picture or banner hung on the wall that was crooked, but that no one ever took time to fix. It would have really bothered a person who was put together in such a way as to want things symmetrical.

Well, that's how it is for me with music. I've found that most congregations (in my experience, and I've experienced hundreds of them in various denominations in the past 30 years) will try to keep things looking as symmetrical as possible in their houses of worship. But a significant larger percentage of congregations--especially smaller ones--will continually accept inferior music during their services.

I wonder why it is that so many congregations treat music differently than they do other aspects of church life in general and worship services in particular.

I can't get into all of the details right now, but I'm beginning to wonder if sometimes lack of decent music is a factor in keeping traditionally small congregations small. While there's nothing inherently wrong with small congregations, if year after year they are not reaching people for Jesus, are they really doing the work the church is supposed to do of spreading the Gospel and making disciples? I remember many years ago one of my Bible College professors telling the class, "God has called us to be fishers of men, not keepers of the aquarium." Well, I have modified that statement over the years to say "...not just keepers of the aquarium," because I realize that congregational care is indeed an important part of what the church should be doing. At the same time, I believe it is important to know what "first impression" people have of our churches when they come in for a service. It's true that "you never get a second chance to make a first impression."

I hope that all of my comments are taken in the spirit in which they are intended--not one of judging, but one of questioning if we should re-look at how we perceive and do some things. I'll be the first to admit that maybe I need to re-look at some things.

[Michael Flowers]

It seems as though I am the minority here. It's difficult for me to convey what I'm trying to get across.

First and foremost, I want to re-iterate that to occasionally have someone do special music who isn't "polished" or even "average" or better is fine, especially if there's a specific reason to do it.. I also realize that, especially in smaller congregations (meaning averaging 50 or fewer people for services) there simply often isn't a talent pool from which to draw. That's fine. We work with what we have. But that doesn't mean that we shouldn't try to improve, either.

Several years ago, a new staff member of our congregation and I (he has since re-located) were walking throughout the community where the church building is located to tell people about something specific going on at the church. We met a couple of people who said something about needing to find a church in the area, and one of the first questions they asked was about our music. Both the staff member and I were embarrassed to answer because our music was really pretty bad. But I guess sometimes the truth hurts. And those people never came to any of our services (although I readily admit that it's highly probable that it may have had nothing to do with our lack of quality music).

Sometimes I think that we should at this issue of church music from different angles. If we want to be a blessing to our little group of faithful attendees, and we know that they will be blessed if a certain person with little musical talent goes up front and belts out a song even though the musicality is of low quality, that's fine--for that small group of faithful attendees who may know that person and who realize the person's background and spiritual zeal. It might even be fine for people who are tone deaf, but not part of that small group of faithful attendees--not to mention the person singing/playing the music. But what about the other people we should be trying to reach? What if a first-time visitor came into the service that day? My guess is that if they were an unbeliever or if they were new to the area and looking for a church home, they very likely would not return--especially if worshiping through music was an important part of the service for them.

Let me try to give an example with something other than music.

At one time I was part of a small congregation which had a faithful member who almost always carried a tape measure in his pocket. If the pulpit or the communion table had to be moved for any reason, when it was put back into place, this man would bring out his tape measure to make sure that everything was properly arranged (preferably centered) down to the fraction of an inch. For him, it was a matter of symmetry; if things weren't centered properly, it bothered him.

Now imagine what it would be like for him if he came in and saw a different piece of furniture faced improperly, re-set in an off-centered position, etc., week after week. Each week it was something different. Or suppose there was a picture or banner hung on the wall that was crooked, but that no one ever took time to fix. It would have really bothered a person who was put together in such a way as to want things symmetrical.

Well, that's how it is for me with music. I've found that most congregations (in my experience, and I've experienced hundreds of them in various denominations in the past 30 years) will try to keep things looking as symmetrical as possible in their houses of worship. But a significant larger percentage of congregations--especially smaller ones--will continually accept inferior music during their services.

I wonder why it is that so many congregations treat music differently than they do other aspects of church life in general and worship services in particular.

I can't get into all of the details right now, but I'm beginning to wonder if sometimes lack of decent music is a factor in keeping traditionally small congregations small. While there's nothing inherently wrong with small congregations, if year after year they are not reaching people for Jesus, are they really doing the work the church is supposed to do of spreading the Gospel and making disciples? I remember many years ago one of my Bible College professors telling the class, "God has called us to be fishers of men, not keepers of the aquarium." Well, I have modified that statement over the years to say "...not just keepers of the aquarium," because I realize that congregational care is indeed an important part of what the church should be doing. At the same time, I believe it is important to know what "first impression" people have of our churches when they come in for a service. It's true that "you never get a second chance to make a first impression."

I hope that all of my comments are taken in the spirit in which they are intended--not one of judging, but one of questioning if we should re-look at how we perceive and do some things. I'll be the first to admit that maybe I need to re-look at some things.

Honestly, it is my experience that if someone leaves because they don't like the music then they aren't really looking for a church, they are looking for a venue tailored specifically for them to enjoy. I recently had a 7 year old girl ask if she could play guitar some Sunday in service, I told her yes. However, I have not yet let her play because she is not ready. She received the guitar for Christmas and I am working with her on being able to play a simple two chord song (He's Got the Whole World). I am having her wait because I do not want her to know she has messed up in front of all of these people and thus become discouraged, I am not making her wait because she won't do a good enough job. I love that she asked to do it, she wants to do it. Her heart is in it!

We must remember that the church isn't about music, its about God. We gather to worship God and if you can't worship God because someone isn't good enough at playing that instrument, then you likely need to reevaluate your heart. People who come to a church should be seeking God, not magnificent entertainment (which is what I would characterize much of the church music today to be). What we tell them when we fall over ourselves trying to make the music great is that music is the most important part of worship. Folks, hearing from God and praising him for all that he has done are the most important parts of worship.

Perhaps the question that should be considered as a part of this conversation is why do people stay at a church with sub-par music? (I know for certain that they aren't all tone deaf)

[Pete Vecchi]

Honestly, it is my experience that if someone leaves because they don't like the music then they aren't really looking for a church, they are looking for a venue tailored specifically for them to enjoy...

We must remember that the church isn't about music, its about God. We gather to worship God and if you can't worship God because someone isn't good enough at playing that instrument, then you likely need to reevaluate your heart. People who come to a church should be seeking God, not magnificent entertainment (which is what I would characterize much of the church music today to be). What we tell them when we fall over ourselves trying to make the music great is that music is the most important part of worship. Folks, hearing from God and praising him for all that he has done are the most important parts of worship.

Perhaps the question that should be considered as a part of this conversation is why do people stay at a church with sub-par music? (I know for certain that they aren't all tone deaf)

Undoubtedly, there are people who come to church for the wrong reasons. But don't we need to welcome them? I'd rather have them in church where at least they'll hopefully be exposed to Jesus.

I wouldn't characterize what I'm talking about as "...if you can't worship God because someone isn't good enough at playing that instrument, then you likely need to reevaluate your heart." The truth is that no matter how much one's heart is seeking God, no one is perfect. Things can distract people during worship services, including the following:

a crying baby;
misbehaving children;
a person's hearing aid squealing;
a growling stomach;
a bad smell (use your imagination as to what kind) emanating from a person seated near you;
feedback from the sound system;
a flickering light;
the temperature being too hot or cold;
somebody having a coughing spell;
someone wearing an ugly dress or other outfit;
a theologically unsound sermon;
a spot that wasn't vacuumed in the sanctuary.

Not all of those things will necessarily detract from everyone's worship corporate experience, but one or more of those is likely to detract from various people's corporate worship experience. It's not necessarily right, but it's human. We're all different. The person wearing "ugly" clothes or the non-vacuumed spot in the sanctuary aren't things that I would necessarily even notice. But sour notes during worship music to me would be like bad feedback through the sound system to some other people.

I wish we were all perfectly able to remain undistracted by outside influences during worship. But the truth is that we are all human, and have to work through various distractions. Poorly done music often distracts me; it's just that I've had to learn to grin and bear it.

[Michael Flowers]

I wish we were all perfectly able to remain undistracted by outside influences during worship. But the truth is that we are all human, and have to work through various distractions. Poorly done music often distracts me; it's just that I've had to learn to grin and bear it.

I have had a similar experience only the other direction. In college I quit going to a Nazarene Church service because I felt that it was more about the people on the stage (excellent musicians all) than it was about God. Also, in some instances the fewer distractions there are the more distracting it is as your mind is looking for something to distract (I know mine does at times).

[Susan Unger]

I have had a similar experience only the other direction. In college I quit going to a Nazarene Church service because I felt that it was more about the people on the stage (excellent musicians all) than it was about God. Also, in some instances the fewer distractions there are the more distracting it is as your mind is looking for something to distract (I know mine does at times).

That is one reason why I like imperfect musicians - it feels more natural and less staged. Perfection distracts me.

[Gary Condon]

Churches used to be the best place for musicians to develop skills. Now it's in the garage.

[Greg Farra]

That is one reason why I like imperfect musicians - it feels more natural and less staged. Perfection distracts me.

Then you should stand next to me when I sing. I will not distract you.

[Susan Unger]

Then you should stand next to me when I sing. I will not distract you.

I stood next to my tone deaf father as he sang all these years...so you'd sound normal. Actually, with the loud music at church I miss being able to hear dad's singing.

[Billy Cox]

That comment got me to thinking about music quality in churches, but would have taken the other thread in a direction I don't believe it was intended to go. So, starting here, I'd like to discuss the idea that smaller churches no longer offer opportunities for musicians and special music "because they want to look polished."

My point of view on this has changed considerably. I believe that celebrating the arts as a church is the same as celebrating our Creator. Unfortunately, the instinct to suppress all but the most skilled/talented artists comes from a corporate quality-control mindset and not from a love of the arts or anything else.

It hurts my heart to say it, but I have typically been among the 'chosen' artists in whatever church I find myself and I mistook their affirmation of my talent/skill for love of art, when it was really just a love for the marketing potential of top-notch music. They didn't love the art at all but just wanted to use it (and me) to enlarge their territory. I was all too happy to supplant sub-par musicians, and now I realize I was just a corporate tool.

My dream church is one that celebrates the arts (performing and visual) as an act of worship, and not just to attract giving units to the sanctuary. There...I'm done.

[Michael Flowers]

My point of view on this has changed considerably. I believe that celebrating the arts as a church is the same as celebrating our Creator. Unfortunately, the instinct to suppress all but the most skilled/talented artists comes from a corporate quality-control mindset and not from a love of the arts or anything else.

It hurts my heart to say it, but I have typically been among the 'chosen' artists in whatever church I find myself and I mistook their affirmation of my talent/skill for love of art, when it was really just a love for the marketing potential of top-notch music. They didn't love the art at all but just wanted to use it (and me) to enlarge their territory. I was all too happy to supplant sub-par musicians, and now I realize I was just a corporate tool.

My dream church is one that celebrates the arts (performing and visual) as an act of worship, and not just to attract giving units to the sanctuary. There...I'm done.

If you ever move to Mattoon, IL, I'd love to have you be part of my worship ministry (which is currently a work in progress as we have two musicians presently in the church). I agree that the music needs to be an expression of worship, not an attractive performance for people to enjoy/experience.

[Gina Stevenson]

Yet, if not a distracting feature, music ~~ while an element of worship ~~ can be enjoyable, as well. {re your comment, Michael, about its being an expression of worship, "not . . . for people to enjoy . . . .", since nowhere do we get the idea that worship need be painful or it is not worship (while fully understanding what 'sacrifice of praise' is all about), tho' some folks might think of certain types of music as torturous. }

[Michael Flowers]

Yet, if not a distracting feature, music ~~ while an element of worship ~~ can be enjoyable, as well. {re your comment, Michael, about its being an expression of worship, "not . . . for people to enjoy . . . .", since nowhere do we get the idea that worship need be painful or it is not worship (while fully understanding what 'sacrifice of praise' is all about), tho' some folks might think of certain types of music as torturous. }

When you take out the three words from that quote (an attractive performance) you really do change what I said. if it is merely an attraction tool for a church then it misses the mark. My above comments show just how much I do enjoy good music.

[Billy Cox]

If you ever move to Mattoon, IL, I'd love to have you be part of my worship ministry (which is currently a work in progress as we have two musicians presently in the church). I agree that the music needs to be an expression of worship, not an attractive performance for people to enjoy/experience.

I'm okay with people enjoying the music and/or being blessed by it.

[Michael Flowers]

I'm okay with people enjoying the music and/or being blessed by it.

I guess I should have put "not just an"