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Thread: World Views

  1. #1
    Dan Henderson
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    World Views

    I thought it might be interesting to talk about world views. The below chart is the best (the only one I know of) that summarizes the "filters" when we process information. According to the writers, we pass new information through each of these filters and form our opinions of the new information based on our established beliefs on each topic. This is in the social science realm and sometimes these world-views are boiled down to 6. The chart provides pop up explainations in each block.

    http://www.summit.org/resources/worldview-chart/


    Note that this curriculum, called "Understanding the Times" is not affiliated with Understanding the Times, International (that I know of). I was introduced to the 1st edition of this book (now long borrowed and never returned) and have always liked the chart.

  2. #2
    Senior Member Daniel Hamlin's Avatar

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    Re: World Views

    I'm afraid it is way too simplistic.
    Dan Hamlin

    The straightest distance between two points is a straight line.

  3. #3
    Dan Henderson
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    Re: World Views

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Hamlin View Post
    I'm afraid it is way too simplistic.
    Not when each section of the chart is representative of a chapter and each chapter is representative of a field of study (each PhD worthy in their own right). Its a summary document, not the end-all, be-all of the subject matter. This is what I call the fundamentals, if you can't grasp the simplistic then you can't discuss the particulars.
    Thanks Pete Vecchi - "thanks" for this post

  4. #4
    Dan Henderson
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    Re: World Views

    Quoting Dan Hamlin:
    The straightest distance between two points is a straight line


    True but the shortest is a tesseract

  5. #5
    Senior Member Craig Laughlin's Avatar

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    Re: World Views

    Not only to simplistic, it is a distortion of the the concept of paradigms. (Although not an uncommon one among more fundamentalist Christians) It is true that we filter information through our paradigms but to reduce this to six categories that reflect religious views is a large distortion. For instance, strong fundamentalist in many ways share more of a world view with strong fundamentalist of other religions than they do with progressives of their own faith.

    The whole concept of world view/paradigm is that it provides nuance to understanding people across otherwise accepted categories.
    It is not enough to be right, you have to be like Jesus.

  6. #6
    Dan Henderson
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    Re: World Views

    (Depicting Mild Frustration)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_view

  7. #7
    Senior Member Andy Mistak's Avatar

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    Re: World Views

    I don't think my Christian Anarchist or Christian Socialist friends would fit so neatly into that table.
    Thanks Paul DeBaufer - "thanks" for this post

  8. #8
    Dan Henderson
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    Re: World Views

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy Mistak View Post
    I don't think my Christian Anarchist or Christian Socialist friends would fit so neatly into that table.
    I think they would all have an opinion somewhere in each of the 10 categories. I posted the chart because I like the format and I like the premise. The first text only compared/contrasted three "Major" World-Views. Again Big-Picture Over-Arching MAJOR views with documentation to support those MAJOR published views. I don't think an individualized view would fit it to an overview chart of any kind. If you were to take the left column as filter areas and write your name and your friends names across the top then define for yourself how you view these 10 topic areas, you might begin to understand how you process information and start to understand how your view of the world is formed.

  9. #9
    Senior Member Pete Vecchi's Avatar

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    Re: World Views

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Hamlin View Post
    I'm afraid it is way too simplistic.
    It is simplistic, but as Dan Henderson (not to be confused with the "Dan" or "Dan H." whom I've quoted here) has pointed out, it's pretty much the basic fundamentals. I personally think it's very good at showing the basics, and I plan on posting a link to it on my Facebook page.

    I think that if we really look at it, we'll see a lot of overlapping of things. For instance, not all professing Christians believe all of the things in the "Christianity" column, but probably have opinions/beliefs that are shaded with ideas that are predominant in some of the other columns.
    Thanks Jim Chabot - "thanks" for this post

  10. #10
    Senior Member Billy Cox's Avatar

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    Re: World Views

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Hamlin View Post
    I'm afraid it is way too simplistic.
    Yes. Humanism is micro-segmented into at least three categories, while Christianity and Islam are monoliths??

    Also the direct comparison of two world religions to various philosophies is an apples-oranges comparison.
    "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us wthout end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
    - C.S. Lewis

  11. #11
    Senior Member Billy Cox's Avatar

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    Re: World Views

    Quote Originally Posted by Craig Laughlin View Post
    For instance, strong fundamentalist in many ways share more of a world view with strong fundamentalist of other religions than they do with progressives of their own faith.
    You're not going to suggest that spiritual warfare and jihad are long lost brothers are you?
    "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us wthout end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
    - C.S. Lewis

  12. #12
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    Re: World Views

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Cox View Post
    Also the direct comparison of two world religions to various philosophies is an apples-oranges comparison.
    This is largely what I was thinking. Specifically, Post-modernism, for example, is not a religion. It is a way of thinking about the world, life, truth, religion, etc. It is a mindset, not a religious belief system. As such it is (mostly, at least) amoral.
    Thanks Bob Hunter, Meghan Schoonover, Charles W Christian - "thanks" for this post

  13. #13
    Senior Member Benjamin Burch's Avatar

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    Re: World Views

    "Biblical Christianity." Riiiiiight. I'm all good on that. I'll stick with Historical Christianity. There is so much that is wrong with this table:

    (1) "creationism" is not fundamental to Christianity.
    (2) "Fallen" is not fundamental to Christianity
    (3) "Atheism" is not fundamental to postmodernism

    Just to name a few.
    - Ben

    Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death! And to those in the tombs, bestowing life!
    Χριστὸς ἀνέστη ἐκ νεκρῶν, θανάτῳ θάνατον πατήσας! καὶ τοῖς ἐν τοῖς μνήμασι, ζωὴν χαρισάμενος!
    Thanks Steven Burton, Daniel Hamlin - "thanks" for this post

  14. #14
    Senior Member Billy Cox's Avatar

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    Re: World Views

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy Mistak View Post
    I don't think my Christian Anarchist or Christian Socialist friends would fit so neatly into that table.
    Think of it like an omelet with 10 eggs in it. The 'Christian eggs' are good eggs and everything else is past its expiration date. How many bad eggs can a Christian incorporate into their worldview before their place in Christianity can be called into doubt?

    It's definitely skewed toward portraying Christian conservativism and/or fundamentalism as the truest expression of Christianity, while all other groups that call themselves Christian are variously intermarried with the pagans and adulterated in their beliefs; infidels, all of them.
    "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us wthout end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
    - C.S. Lewis
    Thanks Steven Burton - "thanks" for this post

  15. #15
    Senior Member Benjamin Burch's Avatar

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    Re: World Views

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Cox View Post
    Think of it like an omelet with 10 eggs in it. The 'Christian eggs' are good eggs and everything else is past its expiration date. How many bad eggs can a Christian incorporate into their worldview before their place in Christianity can be called into doubt?

    It's definitely skewed toward portraying Christian conservativism and/or fundamentalism as the truest expression of Christianity, while all other groups that call themselves Christian are variously intermarried with the pagans and adulterated in their beliefs; infidels, all of them.
    Exactly. It also evinces a lack of historical understanding of both Christianity as well as Scriptural interpretation.
    - Ben

    Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death! And to those in the tombs, bestowing life!
    Χριστὸς ἀνέστη ἐκ νεκρῶν, θανάτῳ θάνατον πατήσας! καὶ τοῖς ἐν τοῖς μνήμασι, ζωὴν χαρισάμενος!

  16. #16
    Dan Henderson
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    Re: World Views

    Quote Originally Posted by Benjamin Burch View Post
    "Biblical Christianity." Riiiiiight. I'm all good on that. I'll stick with Historical Christianity. There is so much that is wrong with this table:

    (1) "creationism" is not fundamental to Christianity.
    (2) "Fallen" is not fundamental to Christianity
    (3) "Atheism" is not fundamental to postmodernism

    Just to name a few.
    Since you stated your opinion so emphatically, it must be the gospel truth! Your vast wisdom astounds me! (Sarcasam intended and duly earned)
    Thanks Glenn Messer - "thanks" for this post
    Laughing Dale Cozby, Jim Chabot, Glenn Messer - thanks for this funny post

  17. #17
    Senior Member Benjamin Burch's Avatar

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    Re: World Views

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Henderson View Post
    Since you stated your opinion so emphatically, it must be the gospel truth! Your vast wisdom astounds me! (Sarcasam intended and duly earned)
    Sorry, Dan. These are just simply understood truths across Christianity.

    (1) Evolution has been accepted by Christians for over 100 years
    (2) The Church didn't believe in a "fall" for 400 years - a lot of the Church still doesn't
    (3) Søren Kierkegaard is a very, very important figure in the development of Postmodern Philosophy, and he was a Christian, reacting largely to the Modernist thoughts of Hegel.

    Sorry. It's pretty elementary. It has nothing to with wisdom.
    - Ben

    Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death! And to those in the tombs, bestowing life!
    Χριστὸς ἀνέστη ἐκ νεκρῶν, θανάτῳ θάνατον πατήσας! καὶ τοῖς ἐν τοῖς μνήμασι, ζωὴν χαρισάμενος!

  18. #18
    Dan Henderson
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    Re: World Views

    Moderator, please close or delete this thread, it does not look like it is going to generate any intelligent conversation.

  19. #19
    Host Book, Movie & CE forums Ryan Scott's Avatar

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    Re: World Views

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Henderson View Post
    Moderator, please close or delete this thread, it does not look like it is going to generate any intelligent conversation.
    It's been entirely intelligent so far. These are all intelligent, thoughtful critiques of the link provided.

    Personally, I'm not even sure how to properly read the chart to even critique it, but I appreciate those who do. I certainly couldn't find one worldview on the list with which to agree.
    ...just my $.02.
    Thanks Steven Burton, Meghan Schoonover - "thanks" for this post

  20. #20
    Senior Member Benjamin Burch's Avatar

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    Re: World Views

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Henderson View Post
    Moderator, please close or delete this thread, it does not look like it is going to generate any intelligent conversation.
    Come on, Dan. What do you expect? You gave us a poor source which attempts to paint large, large amounts of Christianity as compromising "Biblical Christianity" with other "Atheist" philosophies.

    As far as "intelligent conversation" goes, what is "unintelligent" about pointing out the important role of Christian thinkers (Kierkegaard, Barth) in Postmodern thought, the history of the Church's Biblical interpretation (Irenaeus' theory of recapitulation as opposed to Augustine's "fall"), and that ever since the beginning of evolutionary theory it has been embraced by Christians? That's just for starters.

    For more "intelligent conversation", how about the chart's using Scriptural references as source material for "Biblical Christianity" but not providing any references for Islam from the Koran?

    I'm sorry you deem pointed criticisms of a poor source to not be "intelligent conversation."

    You claimed that certain things were "fundamental" to a "Biblical Christian" worldview, and when you received pointed criticisms, you responded with sarcasm.
    - Ben

    Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death! And to those in the tombs, bestowing life!
    Χριστὸς ἀνέστη ἐκ νεκρῶν, θανάτῳ θάνατον πατήσας! καὶ τοῖς ἐν τοῖς μνήμασι, ζωὴν χαρισάμενος!
    Thanks Bob Hunter - "thanks" for this post

  21. #21
    Dan Henderson
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    Re: World Views

    Quote Originally Posted by Benjamin Burch View Post
    Sorry, Dan. These are just simply understood truths across Christianity.

    (1) Evolution has been accepted by Christians for over 100 years
    (2) The Church didn't believe in a "fall" for 400 years - a lot of the Church still doesn't
    (3) Søren Kierkegaard is a very, very important figure in the development of Postmodern Philosophy, and he was a Christian, reacting largely to the Modernist thoughts of Hegel.

    Sorry. It's pretty elementary. It has nothing to with wisdom.
    Come back when you've at least read 10% of the reference material. You are only parroting what you have heard. If I thought you had done any serious studies, I would take you more seriously. You don't even know how your own opinion is formed, so you attack the opinions of others rather than providing support for your own opinions. Had you stayed awake in your social sciences class, even in high school, you would have seen that a secular social scientist is just as likely to group Christianity, Islam, and Jewish together as not, precicely because of their monotheistic views as it relates to how they interpret the world.

    I have yet to see you provide value to a conversation. Everybody has an opinion, they are all unique, just like yours. I have no interest in opinions, especially sophomoric ones.

  22. #22
    Dan Henderson
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    Re: World Views

    Quote Originally Posted by Benjamin Burch View Post
    For more "intelligent conversation", how about the chart's using Scriptural references as source material for "Biblical Christianity" but not providing any references for Islam from the Koran?

    I'm sorry you deem pointed criticisms of a poor source to not be "intelligent conversation."
    Ready-fire-aim! Here are key sources, listed in the chart I provided, for Islam, I'd hate to be judgemental, but it looks like all of these sources are from the Muslim community.


    Ahmad, Khurshic, ed.
    Islam: Its Meaning and Message 3rd ed. 1975; Leichester, U.K.: The Islamic Foundation, 1999.
    Ali, Abdullah Yusuf.

    The Holy Qur'an: Text, Translation and Commentary. Doha, Qatar: Presidency of Islamic
    Courts & Affairs, 1946.
    Rahman, Fazlur.

    Islam 2nd ed. 1966; Chicago: University of Chicago, 1979.
    Tabbarah, Afif A.
    The Spirit of Islam: Doctrine and Teachings


  23. #23
    Senior Member Benjamin Burch's Avatar

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    Re: World Views

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Henderson View Post
    Come back when you've at least read 10% of the reference material.
    What does this mean, Dan? What is the reference material you deem worthy? Eastern Orthodox theological literature? Critical and Exegetical commentaries on Genesis? Commentaries on other OT books with creation references and myths of their own in them? Augustine's primary works? Irenaeus' primary works? Surveys and studies in Early Church doctrines? Hegel, Huserl, Levinas, Kierkegaard, and Barth?

    Help me out, here, Dan.

    You are only parroting what you have heard. If I thought you had done any serious studies, I would take you more seriously.
    I wasn't attacking. I was criticizing. You, sir, are the one attacking. You are condescending (again, as you've done before).

    You don't even know how your own opinion is formed, so you attack the opinions of others rather than providing support for your own opinions.
    (1) I wasn't attacking. I was criticizing. You, sir, are the one attacking. You are condescending (again, as you've done before).
    (2) I'll gladly start providing support if you want, but what do you want out of me? This is a discussion forum, not a place for writing papers. I have an MA to complete that requires me to write papers. I'm sorry you haven't really offered anything yet which is substantial enough to compel me to write a paper for you.
    (3) I am extremely aware of how my opinion is formed. The better question is, do those doing this study know how their opinion is formed? Particularly of what is "Biblical" and what is not? Do you know how your opinion is formed?

    At least I'm willing to ask questions instead of claiming you don't and attacking you.

    Had you stayed awake in your social sciences class, even in high school, you would have seen that a secular social scientist is just as likely to group Christianity, Islam, and Jewish together as not, precicely because of their monotheistic views as it relates to how they interpret the world.
    - I did stay awake in those classes
    - What does this have to do with the chart you've provided?

    I have yet to see you provide value to a conversation. Everybody has an opinion, they are all unique, just like yours. I have no interest in opinions, especially sophomoric ones.
    Sounds good, Dan.
    - Ben

    Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death! And to those in the tombs, bestowing life!
    Χριστὸς ἀνέστη ἐκ νεκρῶν, θανάτῳ θάνατον πατήσας! καὶ τοῖς ἐν τοῖς μνήμασι, ζωὴν χαρισάμενος!
    Thanks Bob Hunter, Valisha Trammell Hall - "thanks" for this post

  24. #24
    Senior Member Benjamin Burch's Avatar

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    Re: World Views

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Henderson View Post
    Ready-fire-aim! Here are key sources, listed in the chart I provided, for Islam, I'd hate to be judgemental, but it looks like all of these sources are from the Muslim community.


    Ahmad, Khurshic, ed.
    Islam: Its Meaning and Message 3rd ed. 1975; Leichester, U.K.: The Islamic Foundation, 1999.
    Ali, Abdullah Yusuf.

    The Holy Qur'an: Text, Translation and Commentary. Doha, Qatar: Presidency of Islamic
    Courts & Affairs, 1946.
    Rahman, Fazlur.

    Islam 2nd ed. 1966; Chicago: University of Chicago, 1979.
    Tabbarah, Afif A.
    The Spirit of Islam: Doctrine and Teachings

    My point was in the actual pop-up paragraphs which fail to provide any direct references to the Koran which are provided for the Bible.
    - Ben

    Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death! And to those in the tombs, bestowing life!
    Χριστὸς ἀνέστη ἐκ νεκρῶν, θανάτῳ θάνατον πατήσας! καὶ τοῖς ἐν τοῖς μνήμασι, ζωὴν χαρισάμενος!

  25. #25
    Dan Henderson
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    Re: World Views

    Quote Originally Posted by Benjamin Burch View Post
    My point was in the actual pop-up paragraphs which fail to provide any direct references to the Koran which are provided for the Bible.
    All you had to do was to click on "Islam." Yet you missed, because you didn't look, the fact that there are thousands of hours of research and reference work in this "simplistic" document. These people (multiple), did original research then formed an opinion. These authors state up front that they are biased toward what they call Biblical Christianity. "They" qualified their opinion, you did not. "They" put in the hours of research so they could be reasonably accurate about the World-Views they don't hold, you have not.

    I intended this to be a intellectual conversation of sorts. I had and have no interest in "eye-rolling", sarcastic comments. The conversation was supposed to be about World-Views, not your critique of a document. It was supposed to be about "Cite your source", not "I think". With the exception of a couple of comments, I have been severely disappointed.

    Because I identified myself as a CN, I expected such treatment by people here. I have not been dissapointed in my expectation. I have found, however, that good, solid debate, conversation, and even differing opinions can be posted by most Naznetters. Just like in other locations I have posted, it is the few, with attitudes, that destroys the nature of the conversation for the majority. It is the few that also drive the reputation for a community.

  26. #26
    Senior Member Benjamin Burch's Avatar

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    Re: World Views

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Henderson View Post
    Come back when you've at least read 10% of the reference material.
    I realize now you must mean the reference material provided. Why don't you acknowledge the extremely selective nature of their readings which bring them to conclusions which are untrue?

    Why is Barth not included in their understanding of Postmodernity?
    Why is Kierkegaard not included in their understanding of postmodernity?
    Why are various thinkers like Jean-Luc Marion, Fr. Thomas Hopko, Joseph Ratzinger, St. Irenaeus, St. Gregory of Nazianzus, Walter Brueggemann and Terrance Fretheim not included in their understanding of "Biblical Christianity"?

    What makes what they describe "Biblical" as opposed to other forms of Christianity?

    Why is Barth less Biblical than D.A. Carson?

    In the end, it is still true that this chart proposes one way to be a "Biblical Christian" in your worldview, and a whole bunch of other ways to mix and match your Christianity with other worldviews. Once more, is this not a glaring problem?
    - Ben

    Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death! And to those in the tombs, bestowing life!
    Χριστὸς ἀνέστη ἐκ νεκρῶν, θανάτῳ θάνατον πατήσας! καὶ τοῖς ἐν τοῖς μνήμασι, ζωὴν χαρισάμενος!

  27. #27
    Senior Member Benjamin Burch's Avatar

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    Re: World Views

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Henderson View Post
    All you had to do was to click on "Islam." Yet you missed, because you didn't look,
    Last I checked, even on that page there were still no references to verses from the Koran, whereas the "Christian" section is litered with them. This doesn't seem to be a glaring problem!?

    Or, providing their readers with a reference ratio of 11:4 against?
    - Ben

    Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death! And to those in the tombs, bestowing life!
    Χριστὸς ἀνέστη ἐκ νεκρῶν, θανάτῳ θάνατον πατήσας! καὶ τοῖς ἐν τοῖς μνήμασι, ζωὴν χαρισάμενος!

  28. #28
    Dan Henderson
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    Re: World Views

    Quote Originally Posted by Benjamin Burch View Post
    I realize now you must mean the reference material provided. Why don't you acknowledge the extremely selective nature of their readings which bring them to conclusions which are untrue?

    Why is Barth not included in their understanding of Postmodernity?
    Why is Kierkegaard not included in their understanding of postmodernity?
    Why are various thinkers like Jean-Luc Marion, Fr. Thomas Hopko, Joseph Ratzinger, St. Irenaeus, St. Gregory of Nazianzus, Walter Brueggemann and Terrance Fretheim not included in their understanding of "Biblical Christianity"?

    What makes what they describe "Biblical" as opposed to other forms of Christianity?

    Why is Barth less Biblical than D.A. Carson?

    In the end, it is still true that this chart proposes one way to be a "Biblical Christian" in your worldview, and a whole bunch of other ways to mix and match your Christianity with other worldviews. Once more, is this not a glaring problem?
    All of the researchers are still alive as far as I know. If you are really interested, ask them. That is what I do when I have a question regarding a living author. And yes I grade hard on papers. I am not very lenient. It's been nearly 10 years since I have taught, but I don't think I would be much different today.

  29. #29
    Senior Member Benjamin Burch's Avatar

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    Re: World Views

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Henderson View Post
    All of the researchers are still alive as far as I know. If you are really interested, ask them. That is what I do when I have a question regarding a living author. And yes I grade hard on papers. I am not very lenient. It's been nearly 10 years since I have taught, but I don't think I would be much different today.
    You still have yet to address my larger question:

    In the end, it is still true that this chart proposes one way to be a "Biblical Christian" in your worldview, and a whole bunch of other ways to mix and match your Christianity with other worldviews. Once more, is this not a glaring problem?
    You said you wanted to have a conversation about worldviews, lets have it.
    - Ben

    Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death! And to those in the tombs, bestowing life!
    Χριστὸς ἀνέστη ἐκ νεκρῶν, θανάτῳ θάνατον πατήσας! καὶ τοῖς ἐν τοῖς μνήμασι, ζωὴν χαρισάμενος!

  30. #30
    Senior Member Lucas Finch's Avatar

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    Re: World Views

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Henderson View Post
    The conversation was supposed to be about World-Views, not your critique of a document.
    The problem is that for conversation to take place, there must be a common frame-of-reference, a starting point of agreement, and agreed upon definitions. If those attempting to participate in a conversation have disagreements about the information contained in a document that is being used as the starting point of the conversation, then the first point of conversation will naturally be about that document.
    If I speak God’s Word with power, revealing all his mysteries and making everything plain as day, and if I have faith that says to a mountain, “Jump,” and it jumps, but I don’t love, I’m nothing.
    Paul, 1 Corinthians 13:2

    So when the gospel is diminished to a question of whether or not a person will “get into heaven,” that reduces the good news to a ticket, a way to get past the bouncer and into the club. The good news is better than that.
    Rob Bell, Love Wins
    Thanks Meghan Schoonover, Susan Unger - "thanks" for this post

  31. #31
    Dan Henderson
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    Re: World Views

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucas Finch View Post
    The problem is that for conversation to take place, there must be a common frame-of-reference, a starting point of agreement, and agreed upon definitions. If those attempting to participate in a conversation have disagreements about the information contained in a document that is being used as the starting point of the conversation, then the first point of conversation will naturally be about that document.
    Start with this; use the left column (the frame), the disclipline, not the writers of this table (they have their own opinions), have framed this type of list as filters (normally 6-10 categories, this being of the "10" variety) of how humans process information, specifically, new information..

    How do you view these topics?
    How did your come to your conclusions? Did you read the humanist manifesto or did you talk to someone who has read it? Do you read greek or do you have to rely on others.

    Example, I rely on others for reading direct greek or hebrew texts, because I have multiple people available to me that are able to do it? I have my Daughter, fresh out of college with the latest and greatest on how we translate those texts, I have my father, who has studied a little formally but mostly completed that area, self-study, and I have access to a Lutheran trained scholar with extendive formal training in this area. If you tell me x in greek is the same as x in modern english, I will ask all three of these people. Between what you have said, and the other three, I will determine if your translation is normalized with the other three. For example, the Lutheran might say, that seems like a valid translation, but I prefer..., my dad says, that looks correct, and my daughter might say, I'm not seeing that (though so far in everything I have asked, all three have agreed) ... With two of the three that I have "normalized" because they tend to translate the same way, even though they have all had different training, agree with a translation you have put forth, I can be reasonably sure that you have translated correctly.

    Another example: I have personally read the Humanist Manifestos I and II among others of the reference documents.

  32. #32
    Senior Member Billy Cox's Avatar

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    Re: World Views

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Henderson View Post
    I thought it might be interesting to talk about world views.
    I agree that world view is a key factor in understanding how different people seek to understand themselves, others, divine realities and the world around them.

    I am presently reading the book unChristian which despite the provocative title is a Barna product and promotes Barna's idea that Christianity can be reoriented by addressing what Barna refers to as 'a biblical worldview'. On the face of it, this seems to have promise, but upon closer inspection the core constructs of a so-called 'biblical worldview' have a distinctly fundamentalist flavor.

    I acknowledge that it is a biblical worldview, but it is by no means the only one.
    "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us wthout end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
    - C.S. Lewis
    Thanks Jim Chabot, Meghan Schoonover - "thanks" for this post

  33. #33
    Dan Henderson
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    Re: World Views

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Cox View Post
    I agree that world view is a key factor in understanding how different people seek to understand themselves, others, divine realities and the world around them.

    I am presently reading the book unChristian which despite the provocative title is a Barna product and promotes Barna's idea that Christianity can be reoriented by addressing what Barna refers to as 'a biblical worldview'. On the face of it, this seems to have promise, but upon closer inspection the core constructs of a so-called 'biblical worldview' have a distinctly fundamentalist flavor.

    I acknowledge that it is a biblical worldview, but it is by no means the only one.
    I believe that I agree with you if you are saying that a group of people that you would call "fundamentalists" call themselves "Biblical Christians"

    I think that the term "fundamental" has been co-oped to always include the strict literal interpretation of the Bible. A view like that does not take into account apocolyptic figurative writing, poetry, or even parables. Even if I were a 6-day literalist (I don't care enough about this one to even form an opinion on it), I would still need to be able to recognize different types of writing in our Bible.

    I would love to be able to call myself a fundamentalist. For me it would mean "one wh focuses on the basics", but I can't because everyone who heard the wor would apply their ideas (5-point fundamentalist, etc) of what I meant by that.
    Thanks Jim Chabot - "thanks" for this post

  34. #34
    Glorified Member

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    Re: World Views

    Quote Originally Posted by Benjamin Burch View Post
    I realize now you must mean the reference material provided. Why don't you acknowledge the extremely selective nature of their readings which bring them to conclusions which are untrue?

    Why is Barth not included in their understanding of Postmodernity?
    Why is Kierkegaard not included in their understanding of postmodernity?
    Why are various thinkers like Jean-Luc Marion, Fr. Thomas Hopko, Joseph Ratzinger, St. Irenaeus, St. Gregory of Nazianzus, Walter Brueggemann and Terrance Fretheim not included in their understanding of "Biblical Christianity"?

    What makes what they describe "Biblical" as opposed to other forms of Christianity?

    Why is Barth less Biblical than D.A. Carson?

    In the end, it is still true that this chart proposes one way to be a "Biblical Christian" in your worldview, and a whole bunch of other ways to mix and match your Christianity with other worldviews. Once more, is this not a glaring problem?
    Ben you know any attempt to pigeon hole groups in a postmodern mind is futile. There is no way to, in a single page chart, show 2500 versions of "Biblical" Christianity, It is easier to source other ideas out to various other worldviews that strongly support them and leave a single worldview holding to a basic (albeit) biased to one particular viewpoint of Christianity.
    You are a classic Postmodern Christian. As I read through the various descriptions you came to mind as a blending of both the post-modern and Christian views described. Does that make you offended that some of you worldview is shaped by sources other than "Biblical"(albeit self ascribed) Christianity.

    Why blast away at it? It is just a simplified chart to show various views and how they amalgamate into a "worldview" Just because it is not an exhaustive list of the millions of variations of each doesn't make it worthless.
    I find most Christians have a culturally blended worldview based on several influences not even listed in the chart.
    Thanks Jim Chabot - "thanks" for this post

  35. #35
    Senior Member Benjamin Burch's Avatar

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    Re: World Views

    Quote Originally Posted by Dale Cozby View Post
    There is no way to, in a single page chart, show 2500 versions of "Biblical" Christianity, It is easier to source other ideas out to various other worldviews that strongly support them and leave a single worldview holding to a basic (albeit) biased to one particular viewpoint of Christianity.
    I thoroughly disagree. Why not leave Christianity out of the big categoires? Why not make it a smaller category? As Bud clearly stated, it's apples-oranges.

    You are a classic Postmodern Christian.
    Debatable. I prefer the terms "catholic" or "orthodox".

    As I read through the various descriptions you came to mind as a blending of both the post-modern and Christian views described. Does that make you offended that some of you worldview is shaped by sources other than "Biblical"(albeit self ascribed) Christianity.
    It doesn't offend me one bit. What bothers me is that a group is attempting to show that only those who agree with them are "Biblical" and "Christian" while others are compromisers.


    Why blast away at it? It is just a simplified chart to show various views and how they amalgamate into a "worldview" Just because it is not an exhaustive list of the millions of variations of each doesn't make it worthless.
    Because it's more than just a "simplified chart." It is an intentional chart. It is very intentional.

    I find most Christians have a culturally blended worldview based on several influences not even listed in the chart.
    Agreed.
    - Ben

    Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death! And to those in the tombs, bestowing life!
    Χριστὸς ἀνέστη ἐκ νεκρῶν, θανάτῳ θάνατον πατήσας! καὶ τοῖς ἐν τοῖς μνήμασι, ζωὴν χαρισάμενος!
    Thanks Steven Martinez - "thanks" for this post

  36. #36
    Dan Henderson
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    Re: World Views

    Here is a question for post-moderns: If one states: "There are no absolute truths", How can this statement be valid? For the statement to be valid, it seems that it would have to be not only true but absolutely true and thus disproving its premise by its very utterance. For it to be true, it seems there would have to be at least one "absolute truth".

    I actually think this way about this statement and, yes, I have actually had more than one person emphatically make this statement to me.
    Thanks Jim Chabot - "thanks" for this post

  37. #37
    Senior Member Benjamin Burch's Avatar

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    Re: World Views

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Henderson View Post
    Here is a question for post-moderns: If one states: "There are no absolute truths", How can this statement be valid? For the statement to be valid, it seems that it would have to be not only true but absolutely true and thus disproving its premise by its very utterance. For it to be true, it seems there would have to be at least one "absolute truth".

    I actually think this way about this statement and, yes, I have actually had more than one person emphatically make this statement to me.
    I'm not even sure what you're trying to get at with the question. IMO, the statement itself doesn't seem to be articulated well in any helpful sense.
    - Ben

    Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death! And to those in the tombs, bestowing life!
    Χριστὸς ἀνέστη ἐκ νεκρῶν, θανάτῳ θάνατον πατήσας! καὶ τοῖς ἐν τοῖς μνήμασι, ζωὴν χαρισάμενος!

  38. #38
    Senior Member Jim Chabot's Avatar

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    Re: World Views

    Quote Originally Posted by Benjamin Burch View Post
    I'm not even sure what you're trying to get at with the question. IMO, the statement itself doesn't seem to be articulated well in any helpful sense.
    Not helpful? Perhaps, yet still valid.

    Remember this. Logic is a little tweeting bird, chirping in a meadow. Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad.
    -Jim

    To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.

    Garrison Keillor
    Laughing Dale Cozby - thanks for this funny post

  39. #39
    Dan Henderson
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    Re: World Views

    Quote Originally Posted by Benjamin Burch View Post
    I'm not even sure what you're trying to get at with the question. IMO, the statement itself doesn't seem to be articulated well in any helpful sense.
    Then don't answer. Ignore the question.

  40. #40
    Senior Member Benjamin Burch's Avatar

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    Re: World Views

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Henderson View Post
    Then don't answer. Ignore the question.
    I genuinely am interested in what you're trying to get at with the question.

    My answer so far, because I do not know, is that the statement in question - there is no absolute truth - is poorly articulated. It begs too many epistemological questions.
    - Ben

    Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death! And to those in the tombs, bestowing life!
    Χριστὸς ἀνέστη ἐκ νεκρῶν, θανάτῳ θάνατον πατήσας! καὶ τοῖς ἐν τοῖς μνήμασι, ζωὴν χαρισάμενος!
    Thanks Steven Martinez - "thanks" for this post

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