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Thread: The Marketing of Everything

  1. #1
    Senior Member Mike Schutz's Avatar

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    The Marketing of Everything

    This article, from The Atlantic, points out the danger in our "everything is for sale" society.

    http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/...or-sale/8902/#


    I have ABSOLUTELY no desire to get into yet another pointless debate with those who believe that the free market is God's gift to humankind.

    What I am hoping to discuss, and thus why I posted this on the Theology board, is the role of the church in this conversation.

    Should the church speak prophetically of the dangers here?
    Have we so wedded ourselves to this perspective, especially in the US, that we have lost our voice?
    "Fully embracing the Gospel, fully engaging the world"

  2. #2
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    Re: The Marketing of Everything

    Considering the marketing of music, books and celebrity in the church, I'd say 'yes' to your last question.
    Thanks Paul DeBaufer, Ryan Scott, John Kennedy, Gina Stevenson - "thanks" for this post

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    Multi-Forum Host Kevin Rector's Avatar

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    Re: The Marketing of Everything

    That was a really great article, thanks for pointing it out Mike. I have to say that this article actually gave me some hope. I'm frustrated by a culture of individualism where there is this general sense that if a person is an adult and they aren't hurting anyone else (at least in an easily quantifiable way) then there is virtually nothing off limits. This gives me hope that people of reason will recognize that we've gone too far in that direction and that some amount of morality is still important. Market living reinforces the strong live and let live attitude which de-values people and commodifies them. The hope I feel is that there are people of reason who are recognizing that "live and let live" without any boundaries is really quite self-destructive to the societal moral fabric and therefore is actually rather dangerous.

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael J. Sandel
    In its own way, market reasoning also empties public life of moral argument. Part of the appeal of markets is that they don’t pass judgment on the preferences they satisfy. They don’t ask whether some ways of valuing goods are higher, or worthier, than others. If someone is willing to pay for sex, or a kidney, and a consenting adult is willing to sell, the only question the economist asks is “How much?” Markets don’t wag fingers. They don’t discriminate between worthy preferences and unworthy ones. Each party to a deal decides for him- or herself what value to place on the things being exchanged.

    A debate about the moral limits of markets would enable us to decide, as a society, where markets serve the public good and where they do not belong. Thinking through the appropriate place of markets requires that we reason together, in public, about the right way to value the social goods we prize. It would be folly to expect that a more morally robust public discourse, even at its best, would lead to agreement on every contested question. But it would make for a healthier public life. And it would make us more aware of the price we pay for living in a society where everything is up for sale.
    As to the question posed by Mike, I think the church has an obligation to stand as a mediating voice against the human propensity to take any good thing too far. The concept of free markets is good, until it is taken too far. The concept of appreciating beauty is a good thing until it is taken too far. God wants us to live healthy "balanced" lives, valuing those around us, and making the world a generally better place. The only thing that can not be taken too far (it can however be corrupted) is love.

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    Senior Member Diane Likens's Avatar

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    Re: The Marketing of Everything

    Very well written piece! Those are some of my own arguments, but I'm not able to express them quite so eloquently.

    To answer your question -- I'd say, "Yes, I'm afraid we have."

    Maybe some entrepreneur will come up with a way to sell it back to us ...
    Wherever I am, God is, and all is well.
    Thanks Gina Stevenson - "thanks" for this post

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    Senior Member Steven Burton's Avatar

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    Re: The Marketing of Everything

    This is why i have really not pursued a career in the field of study I did in college. Which was marketing. My personal opinion is that marketing is using some pretty hardcore psychology to get people to buy products they really don't need or to do thing that they would not other wise be comfortable with. I currently would rather work for a school making about half what I could make in the business world and keep my morals and sanity intact.
    "Means we use must be as pure as the ends we seek."

  6. #6
    Host Theology Forum Dennis M. Scott's Avatar

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    Re: The Marketing of Everything

    Quote Originally Posted by Diane Likens View Post
    Maybe some entrepreneur will come up with a way to sell it back to us ...
    This is from a magazine that sells advertising?
    Laughing Billy Cox - thanks for this funny post

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    Host Fun & Prayer forums Gina Stevenson's Avatar

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    Re: The Marketing of Everything

    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis M. Scott View Post
    This is from a magazine that sells advertising?
    But in this balanced life, that Kevin explained well, there are still enough things people do need, for which manufacturers/creators may vie via Atlantic Monthly ads, that they'll survive.

    This seems a possible indication that this publication is trying to remain a reputable one, admitting there are boundaries when attempting to maintain moral standards. Now, whether this, or catchy headlines, got me reading more there (links to other articles on this page), not sure. But I have bookmarked the AM for further reading, so we shall find out what they are made of.
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  8. #8
    Senior Member Billy Cox's Avatar

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    Re: The Marketing of Everything

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Rector View Post
    I'm frustrated by a culture of individualism where there is this general sense that if a person is an adult and they aren't hurting anyone else (at least in an easily quantifiable way) then there is virtually nothing off limits.
    Kevin, I think we would agree that we live in a culture of individualism. Where we might disagree is in whether it's really something worth getting all worked up over. One of my frustrations is with the church's preaching against individualism that amounts to cursing the darkness without lighting a candle.

    How many sermons have I heard that attack individualism and end with an appeal to accept Jesus as my personal (individual) savior? Countless, I assure you. I give the church partial credit for at least asking a semi-relevant question, but then the answer greatly disappoints.

    We decry individualism but our entire soteriology is expressed in terms of individual guilt, accountability, and repentance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Rector View Post
    This gives me hope that people of reason will recognize that we've gone too far in that direction and that some amount of morality is still important. Market living reinforces the strong live and let live attitude which de-values people and commodifies them. The hope I feel is that there are people of reason who are recognizing that "live and let live" without any boundaries is really quite self-destructive to the societal moral fabric and therefore is actually rather dangerous.
    I suspect that there are few people who actively believe in "live and let live". It's more likely that they believe in "live and leave me alone". That ethic is quite well represented on the Current Events forum.

    I think that there is most definitely a civic morality that is more rooted in a common sense ethic than in a religious system. This morality typically only manifests itself in times of national crisis or celebration - when collective definitions come into play. Think of American society in the wake of 9/11. Think of American response to the great stories that come out of the Olympics or how people pullled together to help the people of Joplin, Missouri.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Rector View Post
    As to the question posed by Mike, I think the church has an obligation to stand as a mediating voice against the human propensity to take any good thing too far. The concept of free markets is good, until it is taken too far. The concept of appreciating beauty is a good thing until it is taken too far. God wants us to live healthy "balanced" lives, valuing those around us, and making the world a generally better place. The only thing that can not be taken too far (it can however be corrupted) is love.
    I wish that the church could find a way to be a mediating voice for something instead of always being so uptight. The church's seemingly perpetual culture of complaint is a very poor witness to the Good News.
    "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us wthout end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
    - C.S. Lewis
    Thanks Jerry Carr, Paul DeBaufer - "thanks" for this post

  9. #9
    Senior Member Todd Erickson's Avatar

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    Re: The Marketing of Everything

    I was listening to a podcast with Penn Gillette (of Penn and Teller, a famous skeptic and Atheist) where he said that for most people, tolerance is actually keeping enough distance between us that I will never have to encounter circumstances where I might have to admit that I'm wrong.

    I can't find any fault with this observation.

    Brian McLaren was mentioning a conversation with an Imam where the teacher was sayign that he really prefered to deal with Evangelicals rather than Liberals, because the Liberals would submerge what they really believed so as not to cause offense, wheras with Evangelicals, you knew what they really thought and believed.
    Thanks Jim Chabot, Susan Unger, Paul DeBaufer, Sarah Smith - "thanks" for this post

  10. #10
    Senior Member Ian Gentles's Avatar

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    Re: The Marketing of Everything

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Schutz View Post
    This article, from The Atlantic, points out the danger in our "everything is for sale" society.

    http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/...or-sale/8902/#


    I have ABSOLUTELY no desire to get into yet another pointless debate with those who believe that the free market is God's gift to humankind.

    What I am hoping to discuss, and thus why I posted this on the Theology board, is the role of the church in this conversation.

    Should the church speak prophetically of the dangers here?
    Have we so wedded ourselves to this perspective, especially in the US, that we have lost our voice?
    Speaking from the UK the answer to your question is....yes! We most definatly have lost our voice nationaly, though things in our town are different, the churches are listened too. But nationaly, and in the west, we most certainly have lost our voice. Maybe we appear weaklings, gushing love, and not clear in denouncing evil?

  11. #11
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    Re: The Marketing of Everything

    [QUOTE=Steven Burton;135269]This is why i have really not pursued a career in the field of study I did in college. Which was marketing. My personal opinion is that marketing is using some pretty hardcore psychology to get people to buy products they really don't need or to do thing that they would not other wise be comfortable with. I currently would rather work for a school making about half what I could make in the business world and keep my morals and sanity intact.[/QUOTE

    Are you saying that the purpose of advertising is not to inform, but to create desire in us humans for material possessions that we donít need to make us happy. Are you claiming that advertizing is unbiblical and sinful and Christian companys shouldn'y be doing it? Advertising doesn't create desire in people to buy things that they don't need or want. If that was true then no business would ever go out of business. But as you know there have been a lot of companies that has thousands of dollars on advertize and yet they went out of business because they couldn't sale enough of there products to stay in business. I don't believe advertising is a sinful it just plain old salemanship.
    Thanks
    Larry
    Last edited by Larry Parsons; April 25th, 2012 at 09:26 PM.

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    Senior Member Jim Chabot's Avatar

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    Re: The Marketing of Everything

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Cox View Post
    I wish that the church could find a way to be a mediating voice for something instead of always being so uptight. The church's seemingly perpetual culture of complaint is a very poor witness to the Good News.
    Thanks isn't enough for this one Billy. I've been watching this thread with the thought that something is just plain wrong. My thoughts are that I don't think there is a conversation to be had based on Mike's opening post.

    But you have captured it! Why on earth can't the church, and especially the holiness church, celebrate our God, Savior, Lord, Father and Friend. Or Prophet, Priest and King if you please. And why can't the church speak prophetically toward urging each other to find joy, happiness ans fulfillment through the deeper life of holy living!

    And please, can the downer, againster, complainer and whiner church, please, please, please, just shut up! Please?
    -Jim

    To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.

    Garrison Keillor

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    Senior Member Jim Chabot's Avatar

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    Re: The Marketing of Everything

    What's so funny Billy? No joke, this is incredibly depressing.
    -Jim

    To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.

    Garrison Keillor

  14. #14
    Senior Member Billy Cox's Avatar

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    Re: The Marketing of Everything

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Chabot View Post
    What's so funny Billy? No joke, this is incredibly depressing.
    I don't recall clicking 'Laughing', but since you were agreeing with me, I'm pretty sure I meant to click 'Thanks'.
    "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us wthout end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
    - C.S. Lewis
    Thanks Jim Chabot - "thanks" for this post

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    Senior Member Steven Burton's Avatar

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    Re: The Marketing of Everything

    [QUOTE=Larry Parsons;135379]
    Quote Originally Posted by Steven Burton View Post
    This is why i have really not pursued a career in the field of study I did in college. Which was marketing. My personal opinion is that marketing is using some pretty hardcore psychology to get people to buy products they really don't need or to do thing that they would not other wise be comfortable with. I currently would rather work for a school making about half what I could make in the business world and keep my morals and sanity intact.[/QUOTE

    Are you saying that the purpose of advertising is not to inform, but to create desire in us humans for material possessions that we don’t need to make us happy. Are you claiming that advertizing is unbiblical and sinful and Christian companys shouldn'y be doing it? Advertising doesn't create desire in people to buy things that they don't need or want. If that was true then no business would ever go out of business. But as you know there have been a lot of companies that has thousands of dollars on advertize and yet they went out of business because they couldn't sale enough of there products to stay in business. I don't believe advertising is a sinful it just plain old salemanship.
    Thanks
    Larry
    Actually that is the whole point of advertising, to create a want into a need.
    "Means we use must be as pure as the ends we seek."
    Thanks Gina Stevenson, Susan Unger - "thanks" for this post

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    Re: The Marketing of Everything

    [QUOTE=Steven Burton;135685]
    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Parsons View Post

    Actually that is the whole point of advertising, to create a want into a need.

    Are you saying advertisers are con us into believing what we like to have into something that we need? We don't even need advertizing to create a want. My wife and I could be driving down the road and I would see sharp looking car and all sharp looking cars cost lot of money. I would say to my wife we need to get a car like that. She will say we don't need one of cars what we have is all we need. Again I don't believe advertising can create a want into a need if it could then any business who is advertising would never go out business. To stop advertizing is a good way to out of business.
    Thanks
    Larry

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    Senior Member Todd Erickson's Avatar

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    Re: The Marketing of Everything

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Chabot View Post
    Thanks isn't enough for this one Billy. I've been watching this thread with the thought that something is just plain wrong. My thoughts are that I don't think there is a conversation to be had based on Mike's opening post.

    But you have captured it! Why on earth can't the church, and especially the holiness church, celebrate our God, Savior, Lord, Father and Friend. Or Prophet, Priest and King if you please. And why can't the church speak prophetically toward urging each other to find joy, happiness ans fulfillment through the deeper life of holy living!

    And please, can the downer, againster, complainer and whiner church, please, please, please, just shut up! Please?
    The main issue that I see with this is that there are things that need to be improved. Those of us looking for those improvements are often labeled as whiners and complainers, because we upset the status quo. So basically, this wants people to either be clones, or leave.

    Yes, there are people who are never satisfied, who always want to whine, who never have anything good to say. But analysts tend to get lumped in with them.
    Thanks Paul DeBaufer - "thanks" for this post

  18. #18
    Senior Member Mike Schutz's Avatar

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    Re: The Marketing of Everything

    If we accept the presupposition that all communication is contextual, thus any communication of the gospel is contextual, then can we imagine any communication of the gospel in our consumer culture that is not, to some extent, marketing?

    Is authentic relationship the opposite of marketing?
    "Fully embracing the Gospel, fully engaging the world"
    Thanks Todd Erickson - "thanks" for this post

  19. #19
    Host Fun & Prayer forums Gina Stevenson's Avatar

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    Re: The Marketing of Everything

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Schutz View Post
    If we accept the presupposition that all communication is contextual, thus any communication of the gospel is contextual, then can we imagine any communication of the gospel in our consumer culture that is not, to some extent, marketing?
    With the main marketing "tool" being love, rather than glitzy hawking of wares, perhaps?

    Is authentic relationship the opposite of marketing?
    Uh, maybe just the most altruistic sort, with the good of the other more in mind than the ROI, rather than its antithesis?:
    Life beats down and crushes the soul and art reminds you that you have one. ~ Stella Adler
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    It takes a great deal of maturity to accept that trying to eliminate all risk eliminates life. ~ Susan Lapin ~
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    His anger lasts only a moment, but His favor lasts a lifetime! Weeping may last through the night, but joy comes with the morning. Psalm 30:5 (NLT)
    Thanks Paul DeBaufer - "thanks" for this post

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    Senior Member Jim Chabot's Avatar

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    Re: The Marketing of Everything

    Quote Originally Posted by Todd Erickson View Post
    The main issue that I see with this is that there are things that need to be improved. Those of us looking for those improvements are often labeled as whiners and complainers, because we upset the status quo. So basically, this wants people to either be clones, or leave.

    Yes, there are people who are never satisfied, who always want to whine, who never have anything good to say. But analysts tend to get lumped in with them.
    You may have misunderstood me just a bit here. No whining or complaining necessary, none at all. Just start celebrating our Savior and just start encouraging those around us be sharing our experience and enthusiasm that comes from a life walking with him.

    The only difficulty with this, I've found, is that it is absolutely imperative to completely ignore the folks who are whining and complaining. Because they will drag you down every time, I get sucked in from time to time and it always brings a good bout of depression which must be overcome by clinging if only by a fingernail to what my Lord has done for me and what He wants to do.

    So are there things that need to be improved? Of course there are and there will always be. I don't say this in a cavalier fashion, but if you are looking for improvements then your probably in for perpetual disappointment. Do the analysts get lumped in, yes I would agree with you there. There is an old saw that says "Lead, Follow, or get out of the way." Maybe it's time to lead?
    -Jim

    To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.

    Garrison Keillor
    Thanks Sarah Smith - "thanks" for this post

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    Senior Member Billy Cox's Avatar

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    Re: The Marketing of Everything

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Schutz View Post
    If we accept the presupposition that all communication is contextual, thus any communication of the gospel is contextual, then can we imagine any communication of the gospel in our consumer culture that is not, to some extent, marketing?

    Is authentic relationship the opposite of marketing?
    Marketing is an effort to influence the value decisions made by others. We might call it something else in the church because 'marketing' feels dirty, but it's really the same thing.
    "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us wthout end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
    - C.S. Lewis

  22. #22
    Senior Member Pete Vecchi's Avatar

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    Re: The Marketing of Everything

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Chabot View Post
    Why on earth can't the church, and especially the holiness church, celebrate our God, Savior, Lord, Father and Friend. Or Prophet, Priest and King if you please. And why can't the church speak prophetically toward urging each other to find joy, happiness ans fulfillment through the deeper life of holy living!

    And please, can the downer, againster, complainer and whiner church, please, please, please, just shut up! Please?
    Amen!

    "Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things." --Philippians 4:8, ESV
    Thanks David Graham, Sarah Smith - "thanks" for this post

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    Senior Member Pete Vecchi's Avatar

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    Re: The Marketing of Everything

    Quote Originally Posted by Todd Erickson View Post
    The main issue that I see with this is that there are things that need to be improved. Those of us looking for those improvements are often labeled as whiners and complainers, because we upset the status quo. So basically, this wants people to either be clones, or leave.

    Yes, there are people who are never satisfied, who always want to whine, who never have anything good to say. But analysts tend to get lumped in with them.
    I don't disagree with you Todd. I try to follow a rule of thumb that if I want to be critical of something, I try to offer an alternative (other than an alternative that simply says something along the lines of, "Let's go back to the way we always used to do it.").

    Those who regularly are critical without offering alternative solutions are the ones whom I consider to be the "whiners and complainers."
    Thanks David Graham, Jim Chabot, Paul DeBaufer, Sarah Smith - "thanks" for this post

  24. #24
    Senior Member Todd Erickson's Avatar

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    Re: The Marketing of Everything

    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Vecchi View Post
    I don't disagree with you Todd. I try to follow a rule of thumb that if I want to be critical of something, I try to offer an alternative (other than an alternative that simply says something along the lines of, "Let's go back to the way we always used to do it.").

    Those who regularly are critical without offering alternative solutions are the ones whom I consider to be the "whiners and complainers."
    I usually don't get to a point where I can offer a solution, because i cannot get people to agree that there is a problem.
    Thanks Ryan Pugh, Paul DeBaufer - "thanks" for this post

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    Senior Member Steven Burton's Avatar

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    Re: The Marketing of Everything

    [QUOTE=Larry Parsons;135692]
    Quote Originally Posted by Steven Burton View Post


    Are you saying advertisers are con us into believing what we like to have into something that we need? We don't even need advertizing to create a want. My wife and I could be driving down the road and I would see sharp looking car and all sharp looking cars cost lot of money. I would say to my wife we need to get a car like that. She will say we don't need one of cars what we have is all we need. Again I don't believe advertising can create a want into a need if it could then any business who is advertising would never go out business. To stop advertizing is a good way to out of business.
    Thanks
    Larry
    Advertising is only one part of marketing. As salesmanship is only part of marketing. Marketing is bigger than the both, from the design of the packaging to colors inside of restaurants all come from marketing.
    "Means we use must be as pure as the ends we seek."

  26. #26
    Senior Member Mike Schutz's Avatar

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    Re: The Marketing of Everything

    [QUOTE=Steven Burton;136014]
    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Parsons View Post

    Advertising is only one part of marketing. As salesmanship is only part of marketing. Marketing is bigger than the both, from the design of the packaging to colors inside of restaurants all come from marketing.
    This is what I am wondering.

    A friend of mine from another denomination recently built a new church complex. There is not a single "religious" symbol in the place. Their goal was explicit. " The people we are trying to reach are not comfortable in a church, they are comfortable at the mall, so our church is designed to look and feel like the mall. They succeeded.

    This is marketing.

    I'm not saying what they did was wrong, but I'm wondering in our culture if we can possibly see life any other way? Should we try?
    "Fully embracing the Gospel, fully engaging the world"

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    Senior Member Mike Schutz's Avatar

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    Re: The Marketing of Everything

    [QUOTE=Steven Burton;136014]
    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Parsons View Post

    Advertising is only one part of marketing. As salesmanship is only part of marketing. Marketing is bigger than the both, from the design of the packaging to colors inside of restaurants all come from marketing.
    This is what I am wondering.

    A friend of mine from another denomination recently built a new church complex. There is not a single "religious" symbol in the place. Their goal was explicit. " The people we are trying to reach are not comfortable in a church, they are comfortable at the mall, so our church is designed to look and feel like the mall. They succeeded.

    This is marketing.

    I'm not saying what they did was wrong, but I'm wondering in our culture if we can possibly see life any other way? Should we try?
    "Fully embracing the Gospel, fully engaging the world"

  28. #28
    Senior Member Steven Burton's Avatar

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    Re: The Marketing of Everything

    [QUOTE=Mike Schutz;136065]
    Quote Originally Posted by Steven Burton View Post

    This is what I am wondering.

    A friend of mine from another denomination recently built a new church complex. There is not a single "religious" symbol in the place. Their goal was explicit. " The people we are trying to reach are not comfortable in a church, they are comfortable at the mall, so our church is designed to look and feel like the mall. They succeeded.

    This is marketing.

    I'm not saying what they did was wrong, but I'm wondering in our culture if we can possibly see life any other way? Should we try?
    See I think we can but it will take the realization that we need to turn another way. Part if the issue I see is we have a culture that is focused on if it feels good do it. Well that is not always the case with Christianity. Most people don't seem to like the idea of discipline as practiced by the Church throughout history. Not to mention to showing you how to live your life.
    "Means we use must be as pure as the ends we seek."
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    Re: The Marketing of Everything

    [QUOTE=Steven Burton;136014]
    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Parsons View Post

    Advertising is only one part of marketing. As salesmanship is only part of marketing. Marketing is bigger than the both, from the design of the packaging to colors inside of restaurants all come from marketing.
    Marketing and advertising is what we pay for not the product it self. For example the fragrance that we buy at a department store's the actually of the bottle is less $3.00 but you spending 50- 200 $ for bottle. If I was going to buy fragrance I would join a network mrketing company who is selling fragrance as a perfer customer and save money.
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    Senior Member Steven Burton's Avatar

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    Re: The Marketing of Everything

    [QUOTE=Larry Parsons;136319]
    Quote Originally Posted by Steven Burton View Post
    Marketing and advertising is what we pay for not the product it self. For example the fragrance that we buy at a department store's the actually of the bottle is less $3.00 but you spending 50- 200 $ for bottle. If I was going to buy fragrance I would join a network mrketing company who is selling fragrance as a perfer customer and save money.
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    Well I guess my degree holds no water then. There went 4 years wasted.
    "Means we use must be as pure as the ends we seek."

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    Re: The Marketing of Everything

    [QUOTE=Steven Burton;136352]
    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Parsons View Post

    Well I guess my degree holds no water then. There went 4 years wasted.
    What did I say to bring that up? All I said, advertising is the biggest part of the cost of most products that we buy. Chanel No 5 paid Nicole Kidman 15 million dollars to endorse thier product. Who do you think pay for that? we do! I shouldn't leave out the middlemen they also make the price go up. I will be willing say most products that we buy cost about 3% of the total cost of the product. I know this true with perfume. If I have offend you I'm sorry which I did not mean to do.
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    Senior Member Steven Burton's Avatar

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    Re: The Marketing of Everything

    [QUOTE=Larry Parsons;136359]
    Quote Originally Posted by Steven Burton View Post
    What did I say to bring that up? All I said, advertising is the biggest part of the cost of most products that we buy. Chanel No 5 paid Nicole Kidman 15 million dollars to endorse thier product. Who do you think pay for that? we do! I shouldn't leave out the middlemen they also make the price go up. I will be willing say most products that we buy cost about 3% of the total cost of the product. I know this true with perfume. If I have offend you I'm sorry which I did not mean to do.
    Thanks
    Larry
    Well you seem to take what I was saying and turning it into something that I was not saying. What I was trying to give is this is the things that marketing does and the ideas behind marketing. In practice they don't always work like they are suppose to as you pointed out with want and need. I was also trying to explain that the article seems to follow the same ideas and saying what is behind the doors of marketing that I have learned about in school and making you away of these dangers as they relate to the world of today.
    "Means we use must be as pure as the ends we seek."

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    Senior Member Susan Unger's Avatar

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    Re: The Marketing of Everything

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Schutz View Post

    This is what I am wondering.

    A friend of mine from another denomination recently built a new church complex. There is not a single "religious" symbol in the place. Their goal was explicit. " The people we are trying to reach are not comfortable in a church, they are comfortable at the mall, so our church is designed to look and feel like the mall. They succeeded.

    This is marketing.

    I'm not saying what they did was wrong, but I'm wondering in our culture if we can possibly see life any other way? Should we try?
    Yes. Rely less on marketing and rely more on the Holy Spirit.
    Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth. 1 John 3:18

    There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. 1 John 4:18a


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    Senior Member Paul DeBaufer's Avatar

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    Re: The Marketing of Everything

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Chabot View Post
    And please, can the downer, againster, complainer and whiner church, please, please, please, just shut up! Please?
    I concur. Be about something rather than against everything. And if you can't do that, just shut up already.
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    Senior Member Paul DeBaufer's Avatar

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    Re: The Marketing of Everything

    Quote Originally Posted by Todd Erickson View Post
    The main issue that I see with this is that there are things that need to be improved. Those of us looking for those improvements are often labeled as whiners and complainers, because we upset the status quo. So basically, this wants people to either be clones, or leave.

    Yes, there are people who are never satisfied, who always want to whine, who never have anything good to say. But analysts tend to get lumped in with them.

    I agreed with Billy and Jim about the complainers, those who rail against the darkness without ever lighting a lamp. And the church seems to be good at this. But I also agree with you here. The problems do need to be stated so that solutions can be found. But there is a difference between stating problems and being against things.
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    Re: The Marketing of Everything

    Well, I'm not sure I understand the basic direction of this thread. If I'm reading and understanding correctly, there is a prevaling (on this thread) sentiment that marketing is bad and the church should take a stand against it.

    My premise is: Life is a market.

    One chooses his/her own level of marketing. This is true in every conceivable aspect of life. Everyone's current level of living in each aspect of life depends on his/her historic level of marketing in that regard.

    Disagreement with life being a market is possible, of course. Call it whatever one wishes. The context is always and totally the exact same.

    If one wishes to diminish societal marketing, the perfect question is, "Then, what is your (marketing) plan to make the change?"

    Should churches participate in, say, marketing the gospel? The question is irrelevant. Every church, every believer has a marketing plan for their faith. Even if one denies such a truth, then they must come up with a marketing plan to prove that they do not have one.

    Those who recognize that life is a market and that they are marketers will always be the ones who excel in every area.

    Can marketing be abused. Of course. But we should never disavow participation in any aspect of life because of those who abuse that aspect.

    In my opinion most churches would benefit by a major involvement in both understanding what their marketing plan is as well as what it should be. I would even broaden that umbrella to include all individual Christians.

    I thought the article was outstanding. My caution is very simple...don't throw the baby out with the bath!

    Friend,

    Wes
    Last edited by Wes Smith; May 3rd, 2012 at 12:47 PM.

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    Senior Member Craig Laughlin's Avatar

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    Re: The Marketing of Everything

    Quote Originally Posted by Wes Smith View Post
    Well, I'm not sure I understand the basic direction of this thread. If I'm reading and understanding correctly, there is a prevaling (on this thread) sentiment that marketing is bad and the church should take a stand against it.

    My premise is: Life is a market.

    One chooses his/her own level of marketing. This is true in every conceivable aspect of life. Everyone's current level of living in each aspect of life depends on his/her historic level of marketing in that regard.

    Disagreement with life being a market is possible, of course. Call it whatever one wishes. The context is always and totally the exact same.

    If one wishes to diminish societal marketing, the perfect question is, "Then, what is you (marketing) plan to make the change?"

    Should churches participate in, say, marketing the gospel? The question is irrelevant. Every church, every believer has a marketing plan for their faith. Even if one denies such a truth, then they must come up with a marketing plan to prove that they do not have one.

    Those who recognize that life is a market and that they are marketers will always be the ones who excel in every area.

    Can marketing be abused. Of course. But we should never disavow participation in any aspect of life because of those who abuse that aspect.

    In my opinion most churches would benefit by a major involvement in both understanding what their marketing plan is as well as what it should be. I would even broaden that umbrella to include all individual Christians.

    I thought the article was outstanding. My caution is very simple...don't throw the baby out with the bath!

    Friend,

    Wes
    I suspect there is a generational issue at work here. My perspective is a lot like yours. I think in a church environment that the distinctions between marketing, advertising and the other nuances are lost.

    For me it is an issue of communication in the larger sense of the word. It kind of goes like this. If my church is in a community that hates blue and loves green. My church is painted blue, maybe we should think about repainting the church green. If they are used to being communicated with via radio and they throw away all their junk mail and we are spending our money sending out mailers maybe we should think about radio. - It is just fundamental communication.

    For me, it would be leadership malpractice to not avail myself of the very best understandings of how to communicate the good news to my mission area. Just like I think my church should make use of the best engineering practices when it builds a building, I think we should use the best communication practices when we go out to proclaim.

    Some will complain that when some churches do this they distort the message to get more people in. I agree, I've seen that done, but that is a theological problem which simply get's amplified by good marketing. What I sometimes see, that drives me crazy, is the voice of those with poor theology and good marketing drowning out the voices of those with good theology and poor marketing. - We are not only to be as harmless as doves, but also as wise as serpents.

    Just my take.
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    Re: The Marketing of Everything

    While I think that "marketing", indeed, plays a role, a necessary role, the article is about the commodification of everything. We live in a time where everything is a commodity and some versions of the church have commodified the Goispel or, rather church. We have, as Steven has said, wrapped churches, programs, and in a sense the Gospel itself in eye catching packaging. Then we have proceeded to market this new, dazzlingly wrapped product. The packaging, in some instances has become the product people are buying and they are missing out on the message that the packaging contains. And our motivations are suspect, IMHO. We use terms like. "Tithing units," "Giving units," "get butts in the seats" to justify this commodification of Jesus and the Gospel message. I don't recall who, or which thread, but one of us said something to the effect, "Some won't recognize Heaven if there are no smoke machines and coloured lights." Come for the show, miss the message.
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    Senior Member Craig Laughlin's Avatar

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    Re: The Marketing of Everything

    In my opinion it has always been a show. One can make the argument that 19th century tent revivals were entertainment evangelism. Pre-electronic entertainment they were the biggest show in town with the best musicians, and greatest preachers.

    Even Jesus drew crowds because they wanted miracles and food. - He didn't confuse the crowd with the disciples but he took the opportunity to to proclaim the Good News to those that gathered.

    If someone is confusing drawing a crowd with making disciples then again this is a theology issue.

    As way of disclaimer - I grew up through the church when we had a pretty strong and false idea of purity. As if by not engaging with the world we were more Holy and that someone the stuff of the world made us less Christian. I have no doubt that those early experiences form my thinking and make me very suspicious of those who say - this or that thing which is otherwise morally neutral is somehow morally suspect if the church employees it. Marketing, advertising, good communication, commodification (Not to be confused with monetizing) and red carpet all seem to me to be tools. How we employ and deploy them is the issue.

    I sometime hear business terms used to describe behavior in the church with the implication that if it fits in a business category it is somehow problematic or at least suspect. - That idea, I reject. - Honestly it kind of reminds me of a group of hyper conservatives - that tend to label rather than wrestle with the particulars.

    Of course let's consider the possibly that some of those big churches are drawing a crowd not because they are "cheeting" by using business practices but maybe it is happening because the gospel is attractive and they are communicating it better than us. What if the problem is we have, like so many generations before, confused our preferred methods with our sacred message?
    It is not enough to be right, you have to be like Jesus.
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    Senior Member Billy Cox's Avatar

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    Re: The Marketing of Everything

    Quote Originally Posted by Craig Laughlin View Post
    What I sometimes see, that drives me crazy, is the voice of those with poor theology and good marketing drowning out the voices of those with good theology and poor marketing. - We are not only to be as harmless as doves, but also as wise as serpents.
    What drives me crazy is when those with good theology conclude that good marketing necessitates poor theology.
    "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us wthout end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
    - C.S. Lewis
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