Closing the back door?

[Bud Pugh]

Here's the page describing Mission Church's steps in their Strategy for Spiritual Growth (it all moves clockwise from attendance at a weekend service toward involvement in service directed toward those not in a relationship with Christ): http://www.mymissionchurch.org/about...-strategy.html

I don't think Brent looks at this necessarily as his assimilation plan but it sure seems to be performing as one from my viewpoint.

[Craig Laughlin]

Here's the page describing Mission Church's steps in their Strategy for Spiritual Growth (it all moves clockwise from attendance at a weekend service toward involvement in service directed toward those not in a relationship with Christ): http://www.mymissionchurch.org/about...-strategy.html

I don't think Brent looks at this necessarily as his assimilation plan but it sure seems to be performing as one from my viewpoint.

Yeah I see it that way too but we are old.

I exchanged e-mail with him and he told me he has an e-book coming out May 24 on "The Process of Discipleship" that tells all about it. I'm looking forward to purchasing the book and thinking seriously about visiting the church.

Have to say as a guy in my 50's I'm pretty excited about a lot of the young pastors I am seeing these days in the COTN. They are definitely teaching me new tricks and I hope I am always the guy that is applauding them rather than resisting them. (Even if I don't always understand)

[Billy Cox]

No, of course not. I don't think that's what I am saying though.

I'm responding to two caricatures of people who leave:

1. Leavers don't like the high expectation that we think our church places on the congregation.

2. Leavers want to be spoon-fed a slurry of doctrinal and ethical truisms without having to do much thinking on their own.

Both characterizations seem to reflect an intellectual laziness or a lack of willingness to learn from our shortcomings...not that I'm accusing you of that, but more of a general observation that I hear this stuff, and I feel compelled to challenge it.

[Gina Stevenson]

I'm responding to two caricatures of people who leave:

1. Leavers don't like the high expectation that we think our church places on the congregation.

2. Leavers want to be spoon-fed a slurry of doctrinal and ethical truisms without having to do much thinking on their own.

Both characterizations seem to reflect an intellectual laziness or a lack of willingness to learn from our shortcomings...not that I'm accusing you of that, but more of a general observation that I hear this stuff, and I feel compelled to challenge it.

Yes, neither seems to take into account the relational aspects that may be involved, and for anyone who might be hurting rather than lazy (#2), to be thus labeled ... well, that seems unnecessarily degrading. This could both add to the apparently unrecognized hurting, and also detract from whatever may have contributed to the situation to be corrected in the future, hence possibly perpetuating at least this one rather distorted perception.

[Hans Deventer]

I'm responding to two caricatures of people who leave:

1. Leavers don't like the high expectation that we think our church places on the congregation.

2. Leavers want to be spoon-fed a slurry of doctrinal and ethical truisms without having to do much thinking on their own.

Both characterizations seem to reflect an intellectual laziness or a lack of willingness to learn from our shortcomings...not that I'm accusing you of that, but more of a general observation that I hear this stuff, and I feel compelled to challenge it.

Well, you may challenge whatever you like, but I do see some folks leave because they indeed want clearer teaching. "Just tell me what is right and what is wrong", that kind of stuff. Most Dutch Nazarene churches don't do that. So yes, you do have to be willing and able to work with less black and white directions.
For some, who came from black and white (talking about viewpoints here) churches, we're a breadth of fresh air. The other day I explained article IV to a group interested in Wesleyan theology. Some new folks there as well. They loved it! Where they came from, it was like what I literally heard when I joined the army in 1980: "You don't need to think here, we'll do that for you".
Others think we are vague and look for clearer directions. And there are quite a few of them in evangelical circles here.

So whatever you like or don't like about this, and whatever you want to challenge, this is what I see.

[Bob Carabbio]

In My case - We visited the church that we're still (after 10 years) part of, and leaders in, and I was unimpressed - the crowd was average, one young fellow was pretty friendly - seemed to care (turns out he did), the song service was the normal Contemporary noise in the normal "Soft Rock" style, and the minister WAS Good - substantive.

What made this church different than the others we'd been "auditioning" (since we'd just moved into the area) was that God let me KNOW in terms I could understand that this was where we SHOULD BE, and so we stayed. SO a "Back door" isn't an issue one way or the other. Other members who "Stayed" have made the same statement - they're "SUPPOSED" to be there - and so they are.

We wanted to be "Multi-cultural" as a Congregation (since we're in an 85% black community), and we've made it a continual subject of prayer, and over the last two years we've gone from ONE Black Family to just over 20% of the congregation, and they all have said in one way or another - "I'm supposed to be here" - for a variety of reasons.

Prayer appears to be the KEY to the issue. GOD brings them in, and when HE does - they stay.

Same thing happened at Grace Church in Flower Mound TX - we had 25 people, and were on the verge of losing EVERYTHING - and there was concentrated prayer, then a change of leadership, and two years later, without "Programs" - we were at 400 and growing. When the Pastor is asked what he did his answer is always "We got out of the way" and let GOD do it. Programs are all well and good, but it's God that brings the increase when you trust Him to do it.

Oh - and If I followed my OWN preference, I'd probably leave here and go to the local "Cowboy" church. But since I'm SUPPOSED to be here - then here's where it is. It ain't ABOUT me.

[Billy Cox]

Well, you may challenge whatever you like, but I do see some folks leave because they indeed want clearer teaching. "Just tell me what is right and what is wrong", that kind of stuff. Most Dutch Nazarene churches don't do that. So yes, you do have to be willing and able to work with less black and white directions.
For some, who came from black and white (talking about viewpoints here) churches, we're a breadth of fresh air. The other day I explained article IV to a group interested in Wesleyan theology. Some new folks there as well. They loved it! Where they came from, it was like what I literally heard when I joined the army in 1980: "You don't need to think here, we'll do that for you".
Others think we are vague and look for clearer directions. And there are quite a few of them in evangelical circles here.

So whatever you like or don't like about this, and whatever you want to challenge, this is what I see.

I'm sure this is beyond the scope of what I'm commenting on.

[Susan Unger]

In My case - We visited the church that we're still (after 10 years) part of, and leaders in, and I was unimpressed - the crowd was average, one young fellow was pretty friendly - seemed to care (turns out he did), the song service was the normal Contemporary noise in the normal "Soft Rock" style, and the minister WAS Good - substantive.

What made this church different than the others we'd been "auditioning" (since we'd just moved into the area) was that God let me KNOW in terms I could understand that this was where we SHOULD BE, and so we stayed. SO a "Back door" isn't an issue one way or the other. Other members who "Stayed" have made the same statement - they're "SUPPOSED" to be there - and so they are.

We wanted to be "Multi-cultural" as a Congregation (since we're in an 85% black community), and we've made it a continual subject of prayer, and over the last two years we've gone from ONE Black Family to just over 20% of the congregation, and they all have said in one way or another - "I'm supposed to be here" - for a variety of reasons.

Prayer appears to be the KEY to the issue. GOD brings them in, and when HE does - they stay.

Same thing happened at Grace Church in Flower Mound TX - we had 25 people, and were on the verge of losing EVERYTHING - and there was concentrated prayer, then a change of leadership, and two years later, without "Programs" - we were at 400 and growing. When the Pastor is asked what he did his answer is always "We got out of the way" and let GOD do it. Programs are all well and good, but it's God that brings the increase when you trust Him to do it.

Oh - and If I followed my OWN preference, I'd probably leave here and go to the local "Cowboy" church. But since I'm SUPPOSED to be here - then here's where it is. It ain't ABOUT me.

Thanks, that hit the spot!

[Dave McClung]

.... When the Pastor is asked what he did his answer is always "We got out of the way" and let GOD do it. ....

Bob, I am convinced that is the right answer to the question, "What makes churches grow?" The reasons most churches don't grow is that people get in the way. Good post.

[Marsha Lynn]

I am downloading the book to my Nook even as we speak. (Only $13)

Wondering if you're making better progress in this book than I am and what you think. I have decided that I decidedly do NOT like reading nonfiction on my ereader. My low-end Kobo (door prize at a library conference) has no highlighting or bookmarking features. I now have a used copy of the book on its way so I can underline and share with others. The need to take notes on anything I ever want to refer back to has slowed me down in my reading, but I'm still excited about it.

My favorite quote so far:

Our function as community leaders is to enable people to be the best they can in the community they have chosen to be part of. Our job is to help our community members achieve their greatest ambitions, and to help them work with other community members to realize not only their own personal goals, but the goals of the community itself.

[Craig Laughlin]

Wondering if you're making better progress in this book than I am and what you think. I have decided that I decidedly do NOT like reading nonfiction on my ereader. My low-end Kobo (door prize at a library conference) has no highlighting or bookmarking features. I now have a used copy of the book on its way so I can underline and share with others. The need to take notes on anything I ever want to refer back to has slowed me down in my reading, but I'm still excited about it.

My favorite quote so far:

Our function as community leaders is to enable people to be the best they can in the community they have chosen to be part of. Our job is to help our community members achieve their greatest ambitions, and to help them work with other community members to realize not only their own personal goals, but the goals of the community itself.

I'm about half way and love it. (I've got several books like that right now. Trying to carve out time to go hide and finish some up) With Nook I can highlight which is huge. I read someplace that someone with a Fire could export to Evernote which would mean I could get it on my laptop without retyping. I'm going to try and figure out if I can do that on my nook. Really need to get another Nook as my wife and I share one.

Also, with the Nook app on my laptop I can read from it as well. I thought I wouldn't like that but it is not as bad as I thought. (The books show up in both places)

We are making assimilation the theme of this year at church. I have people working on all sorts of aspects of it. One of the great take always from this book was the idea that people were not assimilated (my word) until they had a sense of belonging. - We have made that our goal, People are not assimilated until they feel they belong. I'm using the word Belonging a lot.