Closing the back door?

[Craig Laughlin]

We sometimes talk about the front door (people who visit) and back door (people who leave) of a church.

I am struggling with closing the back door at Marysville with folks that visit a few times or even a few months but then exit. Folks that visit once and don't come back don't bother me as assume we just didn't click for them. I will be meeting with my DS and a couple of other pastors in a few weeks to kick around ideas.

My last church was small enough that I could do a lot of assimilation myself but at Marysville that is not possible. I have to have a program.

My question is this. What programs for assimilation have you seen in medium sized churches that you thought were really effective? I am especially interested in ones that were effective with people under 40.

Any examples I could look at would be greatly appreciated. - Thank Much,

[Jim Franklin]

I used to be on a team that met every Monday evening. There were 4 of us gentlemen who were burdened for those who had visited for the first time the day before. We would pair up with a different partner each week for a get acquainted visit and specifically ask them to give us a full two month trial. We would ask them of their passed experience in the churches they had previously attended and suggest areas of our congregation in which they might use their passed experience to benefit themselves and our congregation. One of the team was the choir director and the team broke up when he moved on. But for that period of time we had considerable success in getting first timers to stay around. Some of those same people have stayed on for several years others moved on as some just don't find a fit wherever they go. Don't let the whims of people get you discouraged. Once they have stayed around for a few months and then miss a few times, I believe as their pastor you have a right to contact them on the basis of "why" they are not choosing to continue. You have had a part in their lives and they have had a part in your life at least for a short period of time and you would just like to find out what they would suggest as a way you could "close the back door." I hope this has some credibility with your desire and question.

[Kyle Borger]

My short answer is that you must find a couple of people who are seeking to learn more and are seeking a deeper relationship with God. Disciple them and in turn help them become disciple makers. Effective growth will come out of having disciples help others become disciples of Christ.

Seriously, I would suggest you not look for a program or system that is meant to lead people to behave or act in such a way that will help bring other people into the body. My experience is that their effectiveness lasts no more than a couple of years before those who really bought into it are left trying to find volunteers to keep the program running while the people it was meant to reach have changed in such a way that the program has no relevance to them.

Let me put it to you this way, when you walk into a store you are often greeted by an employee at some point in time. The employee who just wants a job will only greet you if forced. The employee who wants to do a good job, but is really interested in something else will try to follow the process they were taught because they want to do the right thing. The employee who really stands out is the one that is actually interested in who you are. They don't approach you to figure out how to get you to buy something. They approach you to find out who you are and help you meet your goals. Sometimes that might even mean giving you information that leads you to make your purchase elsewhere, but you just found your go to guy to buy anything in that category.

This also happens in church. The pastor has been on us for making sure we greet new people.... I don't really want to meet new people, but I know I should, so I will at least smile at them. I have a lot of other things to do, but I know it is important and they need help, so I will make sure I am nice when I see someone new. (Why is it that they always act like they have something to sell?)

Then you have that person. The person who seems to actually want to get to know people. They meet a visitor and before you know it they are deeply involved in conversation and acting like best friends. They invite them to lunch and before you know it, the new person is no longer a new person.

People walking in off the streets who have no connection to your church are a low percentage conversion rate. Can you do it? Yes, and it must be attempted because we don't dare miss the opportunity that presents itself.

The highest percentage is for those who come because someone in your church built a relationship with them and began discipling them. It is a slow process at first and takes time to develop. It is a one on one scenario and takes a lot of time and energy. But honestly just how many people are converted because of our stimulating sermons? Does it happen? Yes. But we need to be aware that just "getting them to the pastor so he can convert them" isn't that effective.

My suggestions come to you not out of my own success. I am but a servant who is desperately seeking wisdom and knowledge in my own attempts to proclaim the Good News. My primary source of information would come from Rev. Hal Perkins and a couple of decades of watching various programs fail. I have also participated in many of those programs and felt the pain associated when I once again failed to advance the kingdom of God. This time is different. This time I am learning how to build relationships. I am learning how to help others build relationships. I am learning how to lead others in their spiritual lives and coach them on how to do the same. I am starting to see the results and they are transforming lives.

Please take my suggestions not as one who claims to have knowledge and success, but as one who has suffered and failed through program after program.

[Jim Chabot]

We sometimes talk about the front door (people who visit) and back door (people who leave) of a church.

I am struggling with closing the back door at Marysville with folks that visit a few times or even a few months but then exit. Folks that visit once and don't come back don't bother me as assume we just didn't click for them. I will be meeting with my DS and a couple of other pastors in a few weeks to kick around ideas.

My last church was small enough that I could do a lot of assimilation myself but at Marysville that is not possible. I have to have a program.

My question is this. What programs for assimilation have you seen in medium sized churches that you thought were really effective? I am especially interested in ones that were effective with people under 40.

Any examples I could look at would be greatly appreciated. - Thank Much,

Just a quick thought. Are all of your staff members present in the hallway, foyer, narthex or whatever you call it, when folks are leaving after the service? Are all of your staff members trained to seek out new faces in the crowd and intentionally make a connection with them. In a church of your size, there isn't any possibility that you can get this done alone, but your staff can make a difference if they are all on point.

Myself, I make sure that I spot any visitors during the first couple of songs and I make sure that I get to them during the greeting. Same thing at the end of the service, I make sure that I am in the hall, anything else I need to take care of can wait. Nothing overbearing, just friendly availability.

[Bob Hunter]

We sometimes talk about the front door (people who visit) and back door (people who leave) of a church.

I am struggling with closing the back door at Marysville with folks that visit a few times or even a few months but then exit. Folks that visit once and don't come back don't bother me as assume we just didn't click for them. I will be meeting with my DS and a couple of other pastors in a few weeks to kick around ideas.

My last church was small enough that I could do a lot of assimilation myself but at Marysville that is not possible. I have to have a program.

My question is this. What programs for assimilation have you seen in medium sized churches that you thought were really effective? I am especially interested in ones that were effective with people under 40.

Any examples I could look at would be greatly appreciated. - Thank Much,

Craig,

Kyle is onto something in his response. But let me give you the short answer. Faith mentoring is the key. Or any organic expression of community such as small groups where people gather around shared interests and devotion to God. But I would argue the key is relationships. I have pastored in a small Church of 100 members and a served as a volunteer in a Church of 2,500. I've seen both sides of the equation and the answer is the same. We need more opportunities to invite people into relationship.

I am writing a Ministry Institute course for NBC on faith mentoring in the 21st Century. People are hungry for it. I am surprised by the number of pastors who really don't know how to mentor and thus their churches become what they are. The traditional programming with NOT work with your under 40 crowd. They will reject programmed efforts and ultimately seek a deeper sense of community. Mentoring does not have to be formalized, but make no mistake it is an intensely relational process. And guess what it will cost you? Zip! Yeah, nodda. The program is free and it won't turn your other programming upside down because it actually enhances everything you do. It's the life-to-life exchange that make a difference. If people are visiting your church that just want sit and soak, then yes, they will probably leave after 6 months (or maybe 6 weeks). But if they really want to connect and experience community, they might be around for a lot longer and you may never get rid of them. But there has to be some sense of helping them experience the process of growth in a mutual relationship.

I don't know if this helps, but I didn't really learn faith mentoring until 2005. I left the pastorate in 2007 and I still have a mentoring partnership with a gentleman that began in 2003!

[Susan Unger]

Kyle, this is helpful. We have an open back door, too. I have been praying for my church for a while now and recently felt God impress upon me the need for deeper discipleship. The employee metaphor fits as well as that happened to me last weekend. I needed to get a dress for when I get my District License. I don't have one [nope, not a one that I can wear in the spring/summer] so I went shopping. I wanted to get one within my budget so I went to two cheaper stores. I found two that might have worked [price, material, color, light weight] but they were too low cut especially in a church situation. I bought something tolerable but it left me unhappy. Plus, the clerks provided no help whatsoever. In the end, I decided to go back to my favorite store [which is an expensive store that I only go to when they have massive sales]. The clerk approached me to find who I was and what my goals were. As I poured out my frustrations, she really tried hard to help me find the right outfit that I would be happy with and appropriate one for a church environment, even down to giving me a significant discount [used a discount code for the next week's sale]. When she and the other clerks saw my happy face, they told me "now, see...you should have come to us first. You know we would have taken care of you right the first time. you wouldn't have wasted 3 hours at all those other stores!" They were right. I have been thinking about that a lot this week and how that applies to the church's back door...and then I see your post saying basically the same thing.

[Billy Cox]

y question is this. What programs for assimilation have you seen in medium sized churches that you thought were really effective? I am especially interested in ones that were effective with people under 40.

Any examples I could look at would be greatly appreciated. - Thank Much,

I can answer from the point of view of the unassimilated attender. As a professional musician, I play in the worship band for a few different churches (2 medium, 1 small), but since I already have a 'home church', I have no intention of being assimilated. I am therefore quite aware of assimilation efforts.

There are two things that have historically led me to at least consider the possibility of connecting with the respective local church:

1. Some sort of detailed presentation or information that lets me anonymously find out more about their primary method of connecting - usually a small group or some sort of recurring fellowship event.

2. A personal invitation from my primary point of contact to some kind of activity beyond my current level of participation in that church.

A word about the whirlwind process where a newcomer goes from zero to Sunday dinner with a former stranger. This is indicative of how church people want to connect with a new local church. I seriously doubt that this is effective for connecting anyone who isn't primed and ready to make a 'church buying decision'.

[Mike Schutz]

I'm sure there are several "3 steps and 10 tasks" programs which work for some churches in some settings.

For us, we have found that we are absolutely horrible at making connections with folks who walk in our door without knowing us - and we do an amazing job with folks who already had relationships with us. So, when I look at people who have come to us in the last five years and become active participants in our church life, they were all people whose first connection to us was not though walking in on a Sunday morning worship experience. Not a one. Everyone first got to know us through our preschool, or our compassionate ministry, or youth group, or even Caravan or Kids' Choir. And most of them knew several other people who attended our church - and who had talked to them about it - before they ever walked in. I do not know of a single person who has become involved with us in the last five years who cannot tell you exactly who first invited them.

In fact, I just had a phone conversation with a couple who attended our church for the first time on Easter. They said, "We were invited by four different people from your church, none of whom knew the others were inviting us. Everyone was saying such good things. We came because we could not imagine a small church with so many people saying such good things."

Thus, for us it is a matter of what we call "Invite - Invite - Invite." Invite folks to worship, invite folks to a conversation (Sunday school or small group), invite folks to a fellowship or a service project.

Seems to work for us.

[Ryan Scott]

Call me cynical, but it seems like, being Nazarenes with a peculiar holiness bent to our life and worship, often once people get a real sense of what it means to be a part of us, they find another place of worship that demands less of them.

I've seen a lot of congregation who've had great numerical success by lessening the demand; I would not recommend that approach.

[Dave McClung]

Call me cynical, but it seems like, being Nazarenes with a peculiar holiness bent to our life and worship, often once people get a real sense of what it means to be a part of us, they find another place of worship that demands less of them.

I've seen a lot of congregation who've had great numerical success by lessening the demand; I would not recommend that approach.

My pastor, Steve Gates, says that people who visit a church come with three questions:

1. Will I find friends here?
2. Will I find God here?
3. Do these people share my basic beliefs?

If they answer all three "yes", they will be return. Questions one and two are usually answered on the first visit. Getting the answer to the third question may take longer.

[Craig Laughlin]

My pastor, Steve Gates, says that people who visit a church come with three questions:

1. Will I find friends here?
2. Will I find God here?
3. Do these people share my basic beliefs?

If they answer all three "yes", they will be return. Questions one and two are usually answered on the first visit. Getting the answer to the third question may take longer.

Those are pretty good. We are clearly breaking down on the finding friends part. We are just big enough that everyone thinks someone else will reach out. When someone comes back after the first visit it means something clicked, there is something attractive or something they liked. If they come 3 or more times my position is they are pretty much ours to lose. I can as a pastor do a great deal for the finding God and articulating our beliefs. - I absolutely must have my people create the friendships. I need to change the culture of my church on this matter but I also need a specific plan (program) for helping folks take those early steps to get connected.

Dave, I know you mentioned your church in Arizona and it's assimilation program. I am thinking about contacting them. Can you remind me of the name of the church?

[Eric Frey]

I have a bit of a different take on things. For me relationship is the key. The people who stay are the people who build relationships with people in the church. People who leave are the ones who do not have strong relationships within the church.

Now, most of what I read sees Sunday morning as the entry point of a church... where visitors come and then we have to assimilate them into groups. This model has worked in some places very well, but I think it has had a very negative impact on "worship." My approach is to always think smaller to bigger. Evangelism starts with a one on one relationship. In the course of that relationship opportunities will be presented to expand that relationship. At those points, the person is invited into one of our small groups. Maybe a men's group. Maybe a women's group. Whatever. In that small group they will build more relationships with the people of the church and they will be invited into a relationship with God in a setting where they are safe to question and explore the scriptures, the faith, the beliefs of the church. Having accepted Christ and chosen to unite oneself with the church, the person goes through a basics course, and is welcomed into the body and the worship of the church through baptism. 1-1, small group, worship. Smaller to bigger.

It kind of flips the pattern, but it makes a priority out of relationships (which is the key to retention) and it allows worship to be the worship of the church...

Now, once I convince the church and we have a few years to work the system, I will let you know how it works out...

[Marsha Lynn]

As I mentioned in another thread (my apoplogies to those encountering this for the second time) I'm at a library conference in Indy. This morning's keynote speaker was Jono Bacon, leader of the Ubuntu community and author of The Art of Community. I bought the ebook version not because of the library connection but because his model echoes what I'm seeing in the church.

Bacon says the primary ingredient for community is belonging. This goes along with what I've read in other sources. He outlined the path to belonging this way:

Identifying (The On-Ramp) -> Developing (Knowledge) -> Determining (Contribution) -> Growing (Kudos)

To break it down: People step into the community and try to figure out what's going on. They learn the ropes and then are ready to contribute. That's where things get difficult. He talked about "bite-size bugs" in the software world -- small tasks that don't take a lot of commitment or expertise, entry-level involvement. He pinpointed this as a difficult step and a place where many potential contributors are lost.

I think that is so true for the church. People want to belong, and the only way to belong is to feel like a valued, contributing member of the community. People wander out the back door when they figure out they have been hanging around for weeks and months and yet are not really a valued, contributing member of the community. They don't belong.

It's easy to look at a congregation and say that 20% of the people are doing 80% of the work while 80% of the people are content to be spectators. However, it's the 80% spectators who eventually tire of sitting in the pews waiting to be inspired and wander out the back door. The way to keep them is to move them into the 20% work force (which hopefully is actually way more than 20%).

Stephen Covey in his 7 Habits of Highly Effective People strongly recommends that the reader immediately find an opportunity to teach the material in order to fully absorb it. Teaching is a way to learn. Discipling is a primary way to become a disciple.

I don't have a success story to tell about moving people from the "getting to know you" stage to the "contributor" stage, but I am firmly convinced that doing so is the key to closing the back door. It's not easy, however. We have the same difficulty as other organizations in finding "bite-size" tasks for newbies, meaningful contributions they can make to the community without a huge commitment.

Marsha

[Marsha Lynn]

Call me cynical, but it seems like, being Nazarenes with a peculiar holiness bent to our life and worship, often once people get a real sense of what it means to be a part of us, they find another place of worship that demands less of them.

I've seen a lot of congregation who've had great numerical success by lessening the demand; I would not recommend that approach.

I respectfully disagree on this one, Ryan. I think people are looking for something worth investing their lives in. Holiness has the potential to be that thing if presented well. Sure, there are always "rich young rulers" who will walk away sad because they have already sold their souls elsewhere, but we're missing a world of young adults who simply don't recognize our presentation of holiness as the cause for which they are seeking.

Long ago I read something about the astounding level of commitment young people were willing to make to communism and its potential to revolutionize the world. What would it take for our young people to see the potential of holiness to do what communism never accomplished?

Marsha

[Craig Laughlin]

As I mentioned in another thread (my apoplogies to those encountering this for the second time) I'm at a library conference in Indy. This morning's keynote speaker was Jono Bacon, leader of the Ubuntu community and author of The Art of Community. I bought the ebook version not because of the library connection but because his model echoes what I'm seeing in the church.

Bacon says the primary ingredient for community is belonging. This goes along with what I've read in other sources. He outlined the path to belonging this way:

Identifying (The On-Ramp) -> Developing (Knowledge) -> Determining (Contribution) -> Growing (Kudos)

To break it down: People step into the community and try to figure out what's going on. They learn the ropes and then are ready to contribute. That's where things get difficult. He talked about "bite-size bugs" in the software world -- small tasks that don't take a lot of commitment or expertise, entry-level involvement. He pinpointed this as a difficult step and a place where many potential contributors are lost.

I think that is so true for the church. People want to belong, and the only way to belong is to feel like a valued, contributing member of the community. People wander out the back door when they figure out they have been hanging around for weeks and months and yet are not really a valued, contributing member of the community. They don't belong.

It's easy to look at a congregation and say that 20% of the people are doing 80% of the work while 80% of the people are content to be spectators. However, it's the 80% spectators who eventually tire of sitting in the pews waiting to be inspired and wander out the back door. The way to keep them is to move them into the 20% work force (which hopefully is actually way more than 20%).

Stephen Covey in his 7 Habits of Highly Effective People strongly recommends that the reader immediately find an opportunity to teach the material in order to fully absorb it. Teaching is a way to learn. Discipling is a primary way to become a disciple.

I don't have a success story to tell about moving people from the "getting to know you" stage to the "contributor" stage, but I am firmly convinced that doing so is the key to closing the back door.

Marsha

Marsha,

I think this is spot on. What I have been calling "fully assimilated" is when a person feels like these church folks are family. I am going to switch my language to "A sense of belonging" which is much superior.

One of the things I have been kicking around is that the old "small group" model is not working. Younger families are to busy and honestly it is to much transparency for new folks especially in the "stand off-ish" Pacific Northwest. I have been thinking a great deal about getting them involved in tasks. My experience so far is those we get involved in volunteering stick. I think I need to makie volunteering a very early step in the process of assimilation. One of the great things I have noticed about volunteering is that when one volunteers one makes friends. Until one makes friends they don't want to be in a small group.

I am downloading the book to my Nook even as we speak. (Only $13)

Thanks Marsha - Great post.

[Dave McClung]

Those are pretty good. We are clearly breaking down on the finding friends part. We are just big enough that everyone thinks someone else will reach out. When someone comes back after the first visit it means something clicked, there is something attractive or something they liked. If they come 3 or more times my position is they are pretty much ours to lose. I can as a pastor do a great deal for the finding God and articulating our beliefs. - I absolutely must have my people create the friendships. I need to change the culture of my church on this matter but I also need a specific plan (program) for helping folks take those early steps to get connected.

Dave, I know you mentioned your church in Arizona and it's assimilation program. I am thinking about contacting them. Can you remind me of the name of the church?

We attend the Oro Valley Church of the Nazarene. The pastor is Craig Coulter.

[Bud Pugh]

We've got a fairly new church on our district- it'll be 5 years-old in September and is running close to 400 with about 2/3 of those folks making new professions of faith. The pastor repeatedly proclaims, "It's not about programs; it's about steps." "It's steps, Bud, not programs."

He is talking about their discipleship process but it permeates everything they do and I think helps them immensely with assimilation. They plug people in as soon as they possible can to their starting point class with the understanding that Basic Training and Strategy Class are the expected next steps. I think that the "behind the scenes" genius that is happening is that they are actually connecting people in relationship- people who all recently started attending the church- while they go about connecting them to the ministries of the church. Check them out: Bend Mission Church

[Bud Pugh]

I would also recommend Nelson Searcy's book on "turning first-time guests into full-engaged members of your church", Fusion

[Craig Laughlin]

We've got a fairly new church on our district- it'll be 5 years-old in September and is running close to 400 with about 2/3 of those folks making new professions of faith. The pastor repeatedly proclaims, "It's not about programs; it's about steps." "It's steps, Bud, not programs."

He is talking about their discipleship process but it permeates everything they do and I think helps them immensely with assimilation. They plug people in as soon as they possible can to their starting point class with the understanding that Basic Training and Strategy Class are the expected next steps. I think that the "behind the scenes" genius that is happening is that they are actually connecting people in relationship- people who all recently started attending the church- while they go about connecting them to the ministries of the church. Check them out: Bend Mission Church

Hey Bud, I've heard a lot of good stuff about this church but this is the first time I've head about assimilation. More and more I am thinking this is the game. I've told the Elder board at MCN this is our single highest priority this year. I'm going to be driving my staff and key leaders crazy about this issue.

- - This church is close enough for me to go to. - If you put in a good word for me do you think they would let me come down and watch it in action? - I would love to learn a lot more about this. - Honestly, I'm running a little scared at this point. A year from now I could have a lot of people coming through my doors. If they reject the church or the gospel that is on them but I don't want to be the one to dropped the ball because we failed to do all we could to help them connect to God and others.

[Bud Pugh]

This church is close enough for me to go to. - If you put in a good word for me do you think they would let me come down and watch it in action? - I would love to learn a lot more about this. - Honestly, I'm running a little scared at this point. A year from now I could have a lot of people coming through my doors. If they reject the church or the gospel that is on them but I don't want to be the one to dropped the ball because we failed to do all we could to help them connect to God and others.

In a heartbeat... and I am sure that Brent would take an afternoon to walk you through what they do. It might be good to meet with him on a day he is meeting with his leadership team as he makes these steps a focus of every meeting (or at least most).

[Dan Henderson]

I read through the posts and have the following questions:

1. Has anyone here developed an exit interview for those who leave the church?
2. If so, have you attempted to implement the exit interview?
3. Do you have people assigned to take note of who is and isn't there? (Do you take attendance in your Worship Servie)?
4. If not, what methods do you use to identify when someone who has been but is not now is not there?

[Dan Henderson]

My pastor, Steve Gates, says that people who visit a church come with three questions:

1. Will I find friends here?
2. Will I find God here?
3. Do these people share my basic beliefs?

If they answer all three "yes", they will be return. Questions one and two are usually answered on the first visit. Getting the answer to the third question may take longer.

I wish I could agree with this statement. It would make ministry so much easier if everyone I encountered in church was asking these questions. I think they are asking questions like:
1. WIIFM (What's In It For Me)
2. Are the bathrooms clean?
3. Is this a safe place for my children?

At least one of my questions seems very shallow. I agree. Many times our visitor's are making shallow, pre-judgemental observations. Simply not being greeted can be enough. Incidentally, I do a lot of traveling and if I am somewhere on a Sunday, I try to be in a Nazarene Church. Chances are that I have walked into a church in your town, maybe yours, sat in your service, and left without ever being noticed. More than once, I've done this with 4 or more people in tow.

Sometimes I like not being noticed, I'm usually very tired when I travel and not very talkative. But I always end up asking; What if I came to church today desparately needing to be recognized? What if you were my last hope? Why did you let me walk?

[Ryan Pugh]

This is the "24-years old, fed-up with normal church but passionately loves the church" part of me speaking:

Is it the church's job to get people in the front door? Is it the church's job to keep people from going through the back door? I don't really like the doors metaphor because 1) churches don't have doors and 2) leaving a church - going through the back door - does not equal leaving the church.

As it stands, though, I would answer the questions asked by saying that the best way to "assimilate" (don't like that word as it pertains to the church either ) people into the body is to love and serve the world together, because I think that's the best way to build relationships and because I think that's the real mission of the church.

[Craig Laughlin]

These are all very good questions in my opinion.

I read through the posts and have the following questions:

1. Has anyone here developed an exit interview for those who leave the church?

Not in this church in large part because we have been going through a major transition the last four years. I did in my last church and I learned a lot. I would like to make that a part of the assimilation plan we are starting to work on.

2. If so, have you attempted to implement the exit interview?

Last church not here.

3. Do you have people assigned to take note of who is and isn't there? (Do you take attendance in your Worship Servie)?

This has been a major source of frustration transitioning from a smaller church (little under 200) to a medium church. (Around 400 with well over 500 that consider it home) It is further complicated by the culture of the Pacific Northwest in which people come to church sometimes as rarely as once every couple of months but consider my church their church home. People can be missing and I don't know it. Normally I would want them in small groups so that those leaders would notice that they had been missing but because a small group plan was done really badly before I got here I have very low congregational penetration with small groups.

4. If not, what methods do you use to identify when someone who has been but is not now is not there?

We hope someone notices! - I know really bad, but that is why I started this thread.

We have grown a lot but if we had a good assimilation process in which people came to feel like they belonged we could have grown twice as much and we would be a lot healthier in my opinion. (Because of belonging not growth)

Good questions.

[Billy Cox]

I wish I could agree with this statement. It would make ministry so much easier if everyone I encountered in church was asking these questions. I think they are asking questions like:
1. WIIFM (What's In It For Me)
2. Are the bathrooms clean?
3. Is this a safe place for my children?

At least one of my questions seems very shallow. I agree. Many times our visitor's are making shallow, pre-judgemental observations. Simply not being greeted can be enough. Incidentally, I do a lot of traveling and if I am somewhere on a Sunday, I try to be in a Nazarene Church. Chances are that I have walked into a church in your town, maybe yours, sat in your service, and left without ever being noticed. More than once, I've done this with 4 or more people in tow.

Sometimes I like not being noticed, I'm usually very tired when I travel and not very talkative. But I always end up asking; What if I came to church today desparately needing to be recognized? What if you were my last hope? Why did you let me walk?

One of the downfalls of church marketing is our assumption that people choose to participate in a church primarily for faith-based reasons. Dan, I'm with you in believer that newcomers visit a church with very mundane, non-religious expectations.

[Susan Unger]

I respectfully disagree on this one, Ryan. I think people are looking for something worth investing their lives in. Holiness has the potential to be that thing if presented well. Sure, there are always "rich young rulers" who will walk away sad because they have already sold their souls elsewhere, but we're missing a world of young adults who simply don't recognize our presentation of holiness as the cause for which they are seeking.

I have seen both actually - those that don't want to go too deep and those that do.

[Susan Unger]

One of the things I have been kicking around is that the old "small group" model is not working.

Gasp - someone else to say what I have been thinking for some time now!

[John Reilly]

We used to have one single back door. To close it, we built a new addition/foyer creating a new front door with four new front doors adding to the two front doors we already had and replacing the one single back door. SO now no one leaves through the one single back door but rather every Sunday the entire church leaves through the six front doors. We no longer have any back doors and the fire department does not seem to think that this is a problem.

[Dan Henderson]

A needs assessment can be a good tool, especially if this is a new congregation for you.

[Bud Pugh]

This is the "24-years old, fed-up with normal church but passionately loves the church" part of me speaking:

Is it the church's job to get people in the front door? Is it the church's job to keep people from going through the back door? I don't really like the doors metaphor because 1) churches don't have doors and 2) leaving a church - going through the back door - does not equal leaving the church.

As it stands, though, I would answer the questions asked by saying that the best way to "assimilate" (don't like that word as it pertains to the church either ) people into the body is to love and serve the world together, because I think that's the best way to build relationships and because I think that's the real mission of the church.

I think Craig is suggesting that (at least some) people aren't sticking with God because they are not "sticking" with the church, perhaps because the people are not fully being the church with one another. His desire is to guide the people to be the church/the Body of Christ to one another. The doors are not literal; (at least some) people leaving the church are actually leaving the church and no one is doing anything about it.

While it is possible for a pastor's concern for the "back door" to be all about "the numbers", it can also be motivated out of love for people and for the church being the church to one another.

[Billy Cox]

Call me cynical, but it seems like, being Nazarenes with a peculiar holiness bent to our life and worship, often once people get a real sense of what it means to be a part of us, they find another place of worship that demands less of them.

I've seen a lot of congregation who've had great numerical success by lessening the demand; I would not recommend that approach.

Ryan, I wish you could hear how patronizing that sounds. I think that those who leave do so more often for relational reasons than for doctrinal reasons. Now if more Nazarene churches were actually doing the 'peculiar' bit, you might have a point.

[John Kennedy]

We used to have one single back door. To close it, we built a new addition/foyer creating a new front door with four new front doors adding to the two front doors we already had and replacing the one single back door. SO now no one leaves through the one single back door but rather every Sunday the entire church leaves through the six front doors. We no longer have any back doors and the fire department does not seem to think that this is a problem.

Brother Reilly -

I think the Loord has blessed you with the gift of obfuscation. And the wonderful thing is you didn't even have to quote any Scripture to do it. Most people are forced to turn to Bible verses to truly obfuscate an issue, and here you manage it without having to do so. Keep working on this idea and maybe you can get on the workshop circuit and become a highly paid church something-or-other consultant. PTL.

[Hans Deventer]

Ryan, I wish you could hear how patronizing that sounds. I think that those who leave do so more often for relational reasons than for doctrinal reasons. Now if more Nazarene churches were actually doing the 'peculiar' bit, you might have a point.

I do recognize what Ryan says, though especially when it comes to us refusing to tell people how to think other than in broad outlines. There are quite a few folk who really want the church to tell them what to do, and will leave if they find we require of people to think for themselves too.

[Billy Cox]

I do recognize what Ryan says, though especially when it comes to us refusing to tell people how to think other than in broad outlines. There are quite a few folk who really want the church to tell them what to do, and will leave if they find we require of people to think for themselves too.

I have observed that people will put up with alot of nonsense in exchange for getting together with their church social group. I just don't buy the line that every person who leaves our church did so because they were lazy and/or stupid.

[Rich Schmidt]

We've got a fairly new church on our district- it'll be 5 years-old in September and is running close to 400 with about 2/3 of those folks making new professions of faith. The pastor repeatedly proclaims, "It's not about programs; it's about steps." "It's steps, Bud, not programs."

That (steps not programs) is straight out of Andy Stanley's playbook. Good stuff.

[Hans Deventer]

I have observed that people will put up with alot of nonsense in exchange for getting together with their church social group. I just don't buy the line that every person who leaves our church did so because they were lazy and/or stupid.

No, of course not. I don't think that's what I am saying though.

[Greg Farra]

That (steps not programs) is straight out of Andy Stanley's playbook. Good stuff.

Here's a training video for taking small steps:

[Greg Farra]

I have observed that people will put up with alot of nonsense in exchange for getting together with their church social group. I just don't buy the line that every person who leaves our church did so because they were lazy and/or stupid.

Billy
That is true in a lot cases. Back when I was Lutheran, we ran into a lot of people who strongly disagreed with what was being promoted in their church, but wanted to stay because they had friends there.

[Craig Laughlin]

That (steps not programs) is straight out of Andy Stanley's playbook. Good stuff.

Andy Stanley has become one of my favorite "mentors from afar". I have been listening/watching his preaching and reading his books. Steps not programs is a great way to think about it. Of course if you have more than a couple of steps it is probably a program. -- That being said it really does positively change how I approach and process the whole thing.

[Rich Schmidt]

Andy Stanley has become one of my favorite "mentors from afar". I have been listening/watching his preaching and reading his books. Steps not programs is a great way to think about it. Of course if you have more than a couple of steps it is probably a program. -- That being said it really does positively change how I approach and process the whole thing.

I think most folks think of a "program" as a ministry for a certain group of people (a youth program, a men's ministry) or for doing a certain thing (a music ministry, a soup kitchen). Thinking in terms of steps is a very different thing.

So "an assimilation program" could be the way of organizing those steps and helping people take their next steps.... or it could cover just one or two of the steps, following up with new visitors and helping them get connected to a ministry or group.