God and Country or Idolatry, I report you decide-
God and Country or Idolatry, I report you decide-
did he just rub the flag on his face? yeah...yeah he did
"Love without holiness disintegrates into sentimentality. Personal integrity is lost. But holiness without love is not holiness at all. In spite of its label, it displays harshness, judgmentalism, a critical spirit, and all its capacity for discrimination end in nit-picking and divisiveness."-Mildred Bangs Wynkoop
I'd say it borders idolatry. Eeeek.
Wherever I am, God is, and all is well.
I don't claim to be a prophet....but I am pretty certain Hans isn't going to put this one on his iPod
BILL
Post Thanks / Like - 1 Thanks, 4 LaughingJim Chabot - "thanks" for this post
I don't see a problem with it at all. The man is proud of his country as any American should be, and he is properly placing his thanks in God, and he is properly placing his hope for this country right where he should as well.
I have sung this song in church on Memorial Day Sunday for the past five years, most of those times with a color guard bringing the flags down the aisle.
Same with this song, every Fourth of July Sunday for the past five years. I love the way Gloria illiterates how the Spirit of God has moved in the forming of this union! My current pastor was elated to hear that I was able to sing this, it was the title of his sermon and he wanted this to be the closing song.
Sorry if some think this stuff borders on idolatry, I have no idea where your coming from. Glad to be in the church I'm at!
-Jim
To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.
Garrison KeillorPost Thanks / Like - 1 Thanks, 0 Laughing
Think U R right, Bill. While listening, this is what came to mind ... those not fortunate enough but to have been born where they sometimes pay with their lives:Originally Posted by Bill Morrison
I don't claim to be a prophet....but I am pretty certain Hans isn't going to put this one on his iPod
BILL
Voice of the Martyrs
ETA, after seeing Jim's post he was doing while I was doing mine, to say that I have not been known for being against patriotic songs (do like Lee Greenwood's song, "God bless the USA," & am thankful for being here), yet cannot help but think of those whose homes I have seen/been in (Mexico), whose stories we have heard (ESL/ELL class folks), and whose stories have been related in various ways ... while the USA is relatively privileged, even those of us who have been hurting now for years.
Life beats down and crushes the soul and art reminds you that you have one.
~ Stella Adler ~
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It takes a great deal of maturity to accept that trying to eliminate all risk eliminates life.
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I appreciate your honesty.
http://www.steeplesound.com
Macungie Church of the NazarenePost Thanks / Like - 1 Thanks, 0 Laughing
You didn't need to be one. And it matters not what country this is about. Let's put it this way, I've never ever heard an equivalent of this in my country. And that is something I would definitely want to thank God for. I'd rather be part of the company that is admits "they were foreigners and strangers on earth [...], longing for a better country—a heavenly one."
That doesn't mean I'm not grateful to have been born here in this little country on the banks of the Rhine. It sure beats Somalia, just to name one. But I am definitely longing for a better one.
"No scripture can mean that God is not love, or that his mercy is not over all his works" (John Wesley - Free Grace, 26)Post Thanks / Like - 3 Thanks, 0 Laughing
The one great thing about NazNet is that we can learn to understand different perspectives. I agree, you and I have yet some way to go. My next post will try to explain my view.
"No scripture can mean that God is not love, or that his mercy is not over all his works" (John Wesley - Free Grace, 26)Post Thanks / Like - 1 Thanks, 0 Laughing
It just crossed my mind that perhaps size does matter
Let me explain.
The other day fellow NazNetter Ian Gentles, who is Scottish, posted this one on his Facebook page:
I love it! Never been to Scotland, though I've seen quite a few documentaries. But there is something about their proud and tragic history that endears me to these people.
At the same time, there is a pretty narrow line between good and decent love of country and this:
Somehow, stuff like this does not endear me to flags and love of one's country.
So it also has to do with size. Could they be a threat? Who is singing? What is their goal? What exactly do they love? Their country, or its power? Do they think they are special, more than others? Chosen by God?
I was born on the blood stained soil of Europe, and my home town of Rotterdam was torn apart by German bombers in May 1940, and occupied by troops with "Gott Mit Uns" (God with us) on them. And it isn't all that long ago, my mother still vividly remembers.
That fact will influence my look at flags and country and religion songs for ever.
"No scripture can mean that God is not love, or that his mercy is not over all his works" (John Wesley - Free Grace, 26)Post Thanks / Like - 6 Thanks, 0 Laughing
It just crossed my mind that perhaps size does matter
Let me explain.
The other day fellow NazNetter Ian Gentles, who is Scottish, posted this one on his Facebook page:
I love it! Never been to Scotland, though I've seen quite a few documentaries. But there is something about their proud and tragic history that endears me to these people.
At the same time, there is a pretty narrow line between good and decent love of country and this:
Somehow, stuff like this does not endear me to flags and love of one's country.
So it also has to do with size. Could they be a threat? Who is singing? What is their goal? What exactly do they love? Their country, or its power? Do they think they are special, more than others? Chosen by God?
I was born on the blood stained soil of Europe, and my home town of Rotterdam was torn apart by German bombers in May 1940, and occupied by troops with "Gott Mit Uns" (God with us) on them. And it isn't all that long ago, my mother still vividly remembers.
Attachment 3669
That fact will influence my look at flags and country and religion songs for ever.
This is one of the most powerful and thought-provoking posts I've ever read on Naznet.
Thank you, Hans.
BILL
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I'm sorry for those who cannot celebrate their heartfelt appreciation for the freedoms that God Almighty has given to this nation through God fearing founding fathers. No, I do not understand nor do I want to undeerstand that viewpoint. As Christians it is only right for us to be thankful for the freedom this country has held dear for over 200 years and I think God is saddened by those who cannot or will not appreciate these freedoms. Maybe it takes the loss of family members and crushing grief that it brings to adequately appreciate their sacrifice. There is now no condemnation for those who hold an opposing viewpoint but sorrow. May gratefulness to God for His benefits and blessings never be called idolatry.
The neighboring city of Nampa, the home of Northwest Nazarene University, has for many years set aside a day each June for a day long celebration called "God and Country" to which many of us Nazarenes attend with grateful hearts.
Jim:
I don't think any American posting here fails to appreciate and celebrate the freedoms God has given us in this great country. I also would hope that even those Christians who aren't citizens of the USA can see the great things God has done through this country to further His kingdom (missionary movement, etc.). I just pray we never equate the two (God and Country) and end up in the same type of situation (Gott Mit Uns) as happened in Germany. I do proudly pledge allegiance to our flag (and gripe a little when I pay my taxes), but that allegiance pales in comparison to that Kingdom which has bought me even greater freedom and to which I owe my primary allegiance and to which I will belong for a lot longer time.
BILL
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There is a line in this song that sums up why I think this type of thing is problematic to our faith. The line is "I love America, but I love Jesus too", in my experience with folks that dig this sort of thing is that this is about the order of things, and that is Idolatry (when that is the order of importance). In my previous church a pro USA comment would get a louder and more resounding amen than a pro Jesus comment in a sermon.
That is unfortunate.No, I do not understand nor do I want to undeerstand that viewpoint.
http://www.steeplesound.com
Macungie Church of the NazarenePost Thanks / Like - 3 Thanks, 0 Laughing
Well, that is exactly the point, Jim! In WW2 the USA lost so many fine soldiers in the wars against nations where (among other factors) nationalism and religion were mixed with deadly results. I don't understand how a nation that paid such an incredible price to fight those evils doesn't recognize them. We must remain on guard. Exactly because the huge sacrifices demand it.
"No scripture can mean that God is not love, or that his mercy is not over all his works" (John Wesley - Free Grace, 26)Post Thanks / Like - 2 Thanks, 0 Laughing
Kind of surprised to see this subject having another whirl! Let it go, folks! Next thing you know we'll be arguing about the saints and statutes in the Catholic Church! Eeergh!
Friend,
Wes
Hey friend, sorry you don't approve.
Maybe you could provide us a list of approved topics so that we would not mess up again.
Your condescending tone elevated the conversation all most as much as my sarcastic one did.
You're welcome,
G
Whatever.
Friend,
Wes
Scary........
Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth. 1 John 3:18
There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. 1 John 4:18a
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Well, one of my old pastors used to tell me that people would probably get more upset over homosexuality than if you denied the Trinity. Priorities get out of whack sometimes.
I am the Lone Locust of the Apocalypse! Think of me when you look to the night sky!Post Thanks / Like - 2 Thanks, 0 Laughing
The first song that was presented was hard to even make out the words. The Gaither singing was reasonable but the idea that somehow any recognition and gratefulness to God for our freedoms has anything to do with idolatry just does not compute. The love ones I lost were my brother fighting for the freedom of Europeans and the nephew in 1964 in Vietnam when the French bailed out. Yes, Americans have lost a lot of service members trying to maintain, regain or initiate freedom for those yearning to "breathe free."
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Well that is the song we are talking about.
That is not the one I take as much issue with.The Gaither singing was reasonable
If by this you are talking about WWII it strikes me as odd to look at that as a fight for European freedom. Certainly we helped the Europeans, but we were protecting our own interests as well.fighting for the freedom of Europeans
I don't think anyone here has a problem with that. But what is happening in the song I posted goes much further than that, and the issue is when love of country exceeds love of God, and when God and nation are difficult to differentiate.but the idea that somehow any recognition and gratefulness to God for our freedoms has anything to do with idolatry just does not compute
And when we call any worldly nation "Christian".
And especially when the nation most often called "Christian" has never actually looked like Christ.
Most good things have been said far too many times and just need to be lived. - Shane Claiborne
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