Young Pastors Leading Large Churches

[Michael Flowers]

You have to have been an assigned minister for three consecutive years at some point, even if they aren't directly previous to the assignment you currently hold.

Some districts interpret it in different ways, though.

It used to be that the three consecutive years had to be the three years immediately prior to ordination; that is no longer the case.

Actually, from everything I have seen (and those I have talked with) the majority of districts still hold to the three consecutive years immediately prior to ordination.

[Michael Flowers]

Consecutive is no longer a requirement (if it ever really was). You might be confusing experience with the requirement to hold a district license for 3 consecutive years and to be assigned. I think that might have been a myth perpetuated by a group that wanted to restrict the flow of new ordinands. Consecutive "experience" is not a requirement. Additionally, there is a provision for part-time to count also (4 years as an unwritten rule that was written at one time). Its entirely possible. Even in its most strict interpretation, it should be easy to move a student from licensing to ordination within 4 years. The reason its hard is because we collectively say "May God be with you in your Pursuits" and conveniently forget that we have a duty as God's family to help our family members in their pursuits. You may say "God will make a way", I say, He has. We are the way to ordination in the Church of the Nazarene. We are collectively weak in this area and we can do much better. Those who actually have mentoring and placement programs can do better and those who don't need to get moving.

Here are the manual quotes:

One who is called of God to this ministry who currently holds a district license, and who has at one time held a license for not less than three consecutive years and recommended for renewal of district license by the church board of the local church in which he or she holds membership or by the District Advisory Board...

To be eligible for election, the candidate must have been an assigned minister for not less than three consecutive years, and the candidate must currently be serving in an assigned ministry. In the case of part-time assignment, it should be understood that there should be an extension of the consecutive years of in-service time, depending on their level of involvement in local church ministry, and that their testimony and service demonstrate that their call to ministry is primary to all other pursuits.

I disagree. It would be next to impossible for a student (in a traditional setting which is what we are talking about) to be able to fulfill the years of service and education in 4 years. As a ministry student at Olivet I had a hard enough time finding time to be active in a church, fulfilling my course work, and also having any semblance of a social life, there just weren't that many hours in a day. Also, part-time is now going to require 5-6 years because the stipulation use to be for 2 years of full-time service which would have corresponded to 4 of part-time. I will grant that is remotely possible for an extremely exceptional student to be able to pull off the requirements by age 22-23, however, it is not realistic or probable. (especially since you are required to have completed 1/4 of the course of study before you can get your first district license, which means that depending on when your district assembly is held, many students would not have finished their coursework in time to be eligible for ordination. example: Chicago Central, Northwestern IL, Northwest IN, and Eastern Michigan all have their district assemblies prior to the completion of classes at ONU, meaning that students from those districts would not be eligible until the following year)

[Bud Pugh]

Having an assignment is another way of saying "gaining ministerial experience". An assigned ministry is (typically) as a pastor or staff member at a church. There is no distinction between having an assignment and getting credit for time-in-service (ministerial experience).

One can only have an assignment while holding a district license. No license=no assignment. No assignment=no time-in-service toward ordination accrued. No matter how much "ministerial experience" a person has, if they did not have a district license they are not accruing time in service (time served with a local license does not count toward time in service and neither does time with the Student role code; it must be a PAS, PSV CHP or similar role code) .

The only recent change in the wording of those Manual provisions is that the license no longer has to be held immediately prior to ordination- it can now be "at one time" that a person held a district license for 3 consecutive years. At some point in time, the one being ordained is to have held a district license for at least 3 consecutive years. There must also have been a time when they served in an assigned ministry for 3 consecutive years. Those 3 year periods typically are one and the same.

The guidance given by the General Secretary's office and the Board of GSs is that half-time service (with full-time being allowed as 30+ hours per week) should double the time-in-service requirement and other than half-time should be adjusted accordingly. Half-time/part-time/full-time classification is determined by the pastor/church board where the person is serving their assigned ministry- not the individual. The Pastor role code (PAS) is always considered to be a full-time assignment even if the person is a bi-vocational pastor or a student.

[Ryan Scott]

My reservation about the age of ordinands is more about maturity and life development than it is about education and service.

I can't think of a single undergrad religion major I've met (and I know a lot of them - really great ministers and students) who should be ordained at 22 or 23. I would never want to set an age requirement for ordination, but I do think the value of life outside a college setting and a few years simply living and independent adult life is crucial to understanding ministry and one's call to lifelong vocational ministry.

Again, I'm not saying there aren't exceptions, but I'm not sure we need to spend time and effort to make it easier for people to be ordained younger.

(This is sort of a tangent, but I'm an advocate for graduate level theological education as a requirement of ordination - which would delay the age of ordination even further for younger ministers.)

[Kyle Borger]

Seems to be off topic but your post has me wanting to discuss it.

Why is it necessary to have specific requirements?

The requirements don't seem to recognize that different people are called in different ways and that sometimes life itself can interfere with the process. I know of a pastor who while a student didn't renew his district license because he couldn't get off work on the day he was scheduled for an interview and the DS wouldn't reschedule him. He continued to serve and a few years later had to start the process over again.

If a person is called to be a pastor later in life shouldn't some of their life experiences be at least considered for ordination?

Each time I have interviewed for a district license, no one has asked me about my relationship with Jesus. No one has asked me about the fruit of my ministry and if I am making disciples. No one has asked me if there is un-confessed sin in my life or if there is a sinful habit that would prevent me from serving. Is this really about if someone is spiritually able to serve as pastor or just if someone fits the mold based on some pre-set requirements?

What if someone is judged to not be ready? What is the process? We have a process for rehabilitation for pastors who sin, but what about pastors who are called but aren't deemed ready? What responsibility does the district have to that individual? I once had a district declare that I knew nothing about sanctification even though I was telling them my personal experience which lined up well with what I have learned in college. They told me they would provide me a mentor who would teach me sanctification. No one ever called.

I'm just wondering when the relationship and involvement of the community are going to be a part of the process. You have a group of people who may not have any knowledge of the individual in question determining their pastoral call. Why not interview their community? Why not request evidence of their fruit?

Just saying, it seems like we are making rules so that it is easier or defines the process and forgetting that this is all about relationships and the community.

[Billy Cox]

My reservation about the age of ordinands is more about maturity and life development than it is about education and service.

I can't think of a single undergrad religion major I've met (and I know a lot of them - really great ministers and students) who should be ordained at 22 or 23. I would never want to set an age requirement for ordination, but I do think the value of life outside a college setting and a few years simply living and independent adult life is crucial to understanding ministry and one's call to lifelong vocational ministry.

Again, I'm not saying there aren't exceptions, but I'm not sure we need to spend time and effort to make it easier for people to be ordained younger.

(This is sort of a tangent, but I'm an advocate for graduate level theological education as a requirement of ordination - which would delay the age of ordination even further for younger ministers.)

Perhaps you would agree that the credentialing process is more attuned to who we should not ordain versus who we should ordain?

So if a 22 year old somehow met all of the eligibility requirements and did not throw any red flags duing their interview process, they could be ordained as a very young elder. ...unless of course being 22 is a red flag. (and I think it should be)

[David Troxler]

If a person is called to be a pastor later in life shouldn't some of their life experiences be at least considered for ordination?

Each time I have interviewed for a district license, no one has asked me about my relationship with Jesus. No one has asked me about the fruit of my ministry and if I am making disciples. No one has asked me if there is un-confessed sin in my life or if there is a sinful habit that would prevent me from serving. Is this really about if someone is spiritually able to serve as pastor or just if someone fits the mold based on some pre-set requirements?

What if someone is judged to not be ready? What is the process? We have a process for rehabilitation for pastors who sin, but what about pastors who are called but aren't deemed ready? What responsibility does the district have to that individual? I once had a district declare that I knew nothing about sanctification even though I was telling them my personal experience which lined up well with what I have learned in college. They told me they would provide me a mentor who would teach me sanctification. No one ever called.

Hi Kyle,
I won't try to answer for other Credential's boards, but on our district, we do take the questions seriously which you apparently have not been asked to answer.

Additionally, whenever we sense the need to have a candidate spend more time with a seasoned elder for whatever reason, including questions regarding the candidate's full understanding of entire sanctification, we put in place deadlines for the report to be given back to the Credential board chair (which is not the DS here, btw). The candidate and whomever is assigned to care and report back to the committee is given the full rundown of what is expected and why. When we have deemed a potential candidate not yet ready for licensing, we have attempted to do at least two things. First, we refer the candidate back to the local church and local pastor where he/she is locally licensed and give them some feedback as to what can be done to help the candidate be better prepared. Second, if we think that there was a failure in the system as to someone being recommended for licensing prematurely, we seek to find out if the reason behind that recommendation. We aren't into "favorite son" licenses. They need to have a bona fide call.

As to the top line of your quote above, I like the idea of accepting some sort of experience for elder candidates for those who enter ministry later in life. That however is not uniform for all candidates since not all who come to ministry later in life have experience that is directly transferrable over to ministry. Certainly there are a variety of life and leadership experiences that are meritorious and can be useful in ministry, but it is not all equal. However, your idea is worth further consideration.

dave t

[Ryan Scott]

I know of a pastor who while a student didn't renew his district license because he couldn't get off work on the day he was scheduled for an interview and the DS wouldn't reschedule him. He continued to serve and a few years later had to start the process over again.

If a person is called to be a pastor later in life shouldn't some of their life experiences be at least considered for ordination?

Talking to a lot of pastors, even a number of them who have come through the process in their 40's and 50's, the issue of ministry as a primary vocation (even if it never becomes a paying career) is paramount. One day a year for licensing interviews is not too much to ask in the grand scheme of things - especially when most districts let people know the dates five, six or twelve months ahead of time.

I think it's the same thing when a spouse doesn't make the effort to appear at an ordination interview. If this is a vocational milestone for one member of the family, it should be treated that way.

If someone is working as a waitress while attending law school at night, they're not going to ask that the bar exam be rescheduled to avoid missing a shift. Even in a more "important" occupation, even one the minister plans to keep while pastoring, the employer should be aware of the effects a vocational call to ministry has on their employee and be willing to accommodate such needs.

I recognize this sounds harsh, but perhaps people in those situations need to expect it will take extra time to re-orient their lives to fulfill the call of God?

Again, I'm not sure this is true everywhere, but it is true in places with which I'm familiar - ordination is to vocational ministry, even for pastors who never get paid. The District generally wants strong evidence that this call takes priority in the life of the candidate and family.

As someone's who been through eight district license interviews, I think its also important that we stress how much ministry is indeed done before ordination. While ordination is a powerful affirmation of the Church on one's ministry, it doesn't automatically make someone a better or more effective minister. I appreciate the strenuous process, even as it frustrates me at times, because it's serious.

[Scott Sherwood]

If someone is working as a waitress while attending law school at night, they're not going to ask that the bar exam be rescheduled to avoid missing a shift. Even in a more "important" occupation, even one the minister plans to keep while pastoring, the employer should be aware of the effects a vocational call to ministry has on their employee and be willing to accommodate such needs.

I recognize this sounds harsh, but perhaps people in those situations need to expect it will take extra time to re-orient their lives to fulfill the call of God?

Again, I'm not sure this is true everywhere, but it is true in places with which I'm familiar - ordination is to vocational ministry, even for pastors who never get paid. The District generally wants strong evidence that this call takes priority in the life of the candidate and family.

As someone's who been through eight district license interviews, I think its also important that we stress how much ministry is indeed done before ordination. While ordination is a powerful affirmation of the Church on one's ministry, it doesn't automatically make someone a better or more effective minister. I appreciate the strenuous process, even as it frustrates me at times, because it's serious.

Clicking thanks alone was not enough. Thank you Ryan. I struggle with the need for the church to do a better job of accomodating bivocational ministers one one side, and sense the tension involved in bivocational ministers finding ways for their primary calling to be their primary vocation.

Some of this may be a carryover of what I experienced as a youth pastor when the same parents, who would not allow their kids to miss one single sports practice, would protest loudly at the slightest sniff of any requirements the church may place on participation in its teams or events. What's ironic about this is that the lower the bar is set for kids, the less interested they are in participating. Then parents and churches, who settle for whatever level of sloppiness is dictated by this resistance to commitment, complain about the younger generation. They are exactly who we have trained them to be.

Rainer's book on High Expectation Churches is a fascinating read on this issue as it relates to clergy as well as laity.

[Dan Henderson]

It would be tricky for someone to meet the experience requirements while also going to school, I would think. To be eligible for ordination, a district licensed minister must have served full-time as an assigned minister for at least 3 consecutive years. If part-time, then longer.

Not at all. Its only tricky because of the go it alone attitude that we have. Doctor's, nurses, lawyers, and accountants have all figured out how to do this (doctor's are ready for private practice when they complete their 1st professional degree). Some have mentioned the vocational call to preach. This is where the internship, or better yet, the apprenticeships construct comes to mind. You don't have to re-invent the wheel here. Its already been done, and many processes are tested and proven.

You may say its tricky, tough, too hard, or whatever. I tell everyone who works for me that if it ain't hard, it ain't worth doin'

Michael, like I told both of my chillies while in school, I ain't payin' for you to have a social life ...

[Michael Flowers]

Not at all. Its only tricky because of the go it alone attitude that we have. Doctor's, nurses, lawyers, and accountants have all figured out how to do this (doctor's are ready for private practice when they complete their 1st professional degree). Some have mentioned the vocational call to preach. This is where the internship, or better yet, the apprenticeships construct comes to mind. You don't have to re-invent the wheel here. Its already been done, and many processes are tested and proven.

You may say its tricky, tough, too hard, or whatever. I tell everyone who works for me that if it ain't hard, it ain't worth doin'

Michael, like I told both of my chillies while in school, I ain't payin' for you to have a social life ...

But say that you are spending 18 hours in class each week. Then add about 24 hours of study each week for those (roughly six) classes. 14 hours for eating. 35 hours for church work. 56 hours of sleep. 7 hours of physical activity. This leaves you with exactly 14 hours during the week to get to and from classes/activities and try to not burn yourself out. A student keeping such a schedule would be in no condition to serve as a pastor, believe me, because they would be so utterly distracted by everything going on it just wouldn't be practical. Working part time in a church while in college say 20 hours a week would be doable, but one could not be full-time and be fully devoted to their work. Even medical students don't keep that kind of schedule (my pre-med roommates had about the most relaxed schedules of anyone I knew, and still do since going to medical school).

Now I will grant that you go to college for the education and not for the social life (technically). But at the same time you do not go to college to pastor a church. You go to college as a ministry student to learn what you need to know at a most basic level about pastoring a church.

[Hans Deventer]

Michael, like I told both of my chillies while in school, I ain't payin' for you to have a social life ...

Stuff like this reminds me of one of my favourite Bible verses: "Let us fall into the hands of the LORD, for his mercy is great; but do not let me fall into human hands.” (2 Sam 24:14)

[Steven Martinez]

Doctor's, nurses, lawyers, and accountants have all figured out how to do this (doctor's are ready for private practice when they complete their 1st professional degree).

This is simply not true for lawyers and doctors. Doctors have to go to 4 years of med school after gaining a college degree and then must be a resident for at least three years before they can practice. Lawyers must go to law school after a 4 year degree and then pass the bar. So a MD at the earliest would be about 30 before they could be in private practice. I was ordained at 26 after I graduated NTS at 25 (my birthday is in January). I actually had the years of experience during my NTS years since I was an assigned minister doing prison ministry. I finished a double major in 4 years at PLNU, than a MDiv in 3 years at NTS and even wrote a thesis for the fun of it because I am a genius . But here I am as an associate pastor in the same church going on my 8th year in July. Why? Because it is my calling!

Why does everyone think that the highest tier is the senior pastor in a large church? The problem with large churches is that they are large and often take so much time, energy and resources to simply maintain that it could easily bog down a young minister who has vision. As an associate in my church I help facilitate two ministry campuses, two separate 501(c)3, preach at least once a week, teach the course of study on my district, write discipleship curriculum, sit on the district NMI council, and currently trying to establish a full time free medical clinic on both of our campuses. Did I mention that we are an inner city church with half of our congregation on SSI? I get to play pastor in all ways I imagined and never have to attend a board meeting. I would say that I am leading a nice size church, I am just not leading every aspect of it.

[Cam Pence]

and never have to attend a board meeting

Take me with you

[Rich Schmidt]

Not at all. Its only tricky because of the go it alone attitude that we have. Doctor's, nurses, lawyers, and accountants have all figured out how to do this (doctor's are ready for private practice when they complete their 1st professional degree).

Earlier you were saying folks should be ready for ordination around the time they receive their bachelor's degree. Now you're talking about professional degrees. Which is it?

As Stew pointed out, doctors and nurses and lawyers are not "ordained" and practicing immediately after their bachelor's degrees.

I'm also not sure why you think we have a "go it alone" attitude toward those working toward ordination. That's not been my experience, either as a student or as a pastor on this district.

[Bill Morrison]

I finished a double major in 4 years at PLNU, than a MDiv in 3 years at NTS and even wrote a thesis for the fun of it because I am a genius . just not leading every aspect of it.

Cool! I was happy to read this because more than once I have felt I was the only genius on Naznet

BILL

[Dan Henderson]

Sorry Rich, I forgot that an example has to exactly match your experiences before you can get it. Think of pastoring as a vocation. Vocation=apprenticeship. Please stop thinking that any degree will prepare you for ministry. It only prepares you for the academics of your ministry, it does not prepare you for the vocation portion of your ministry. A doctorate qualifies you to teach, not preach.

Steve, I have never yet heard a pastor talk about being "called" to a smaller church. I have heard many talk about being "promoted" to a larger church. I have even heard some of them refer to themselves as CEOs. I have only met one DS that truly viewed his role as a servant to the pastor's on his district.

Michael, how many of your peers did what you did in 3 years, I'll bet not many, but I do know of one. Most people seem to go to college on the 5 and 6 year plan.

[Steven Martinez]

Steve, I have never yet heard a pastor talk about being "called" to a smaller church. I have heard many talk about being "promoted" to a larger church. I have even heard some of them refer to themselves as CEOs. I have only met one DS that truly viewed his role as a servant to the pastor's on his district.

Perhaps this is the real issue.

[Steven Martinez]

Cool! I was happy to read this because more than once I have felt I was the only genius on Naznet

BILL

Well lets not forget tall, handsome, well spoken and most of all... incredibly humble.

[Rich Schmidt]

Sorry Rich, I forgot that an example has to exactly match your experiences before you can get it. Think of pastoring as a vocation. Vocation=apprenticeship. Please stop thinking that any degree will prepare you for ministry. It only prepares you for the academics of your ministry, it does not prepare you for the vocation portion of your ministry. A doctorate qualifies you to teach, not preach.

What's with the attitude, Dan? I'm just trying to understand what it is that you're proposing. I can't read your mind, so I have to go by the words you use and explanations you give.

You, on the other hand, appear to think you can read mine? I don't need to "stop thinking that any degree will prepare you for ministry," because I don't think that now.

In addition to my own preparations for ministry, I've helped mentor other young/upcoming leaders (two of whom went from volunteers in our church to now pastoring their own churches), as well as serve on our district's ministerial studies board for several years now. So I'm decently familiar with the process.... but I know that my experience isn't universal. So if you make a general/universal statement, and my experience doesn't match it, you can bet I'm going to speak up!

I'm all for rethinking our system. No problem. Let's rethink it! Don't assume I'm against your ideas just because I'm pushing back against your assertions and examples.

[Dan Henderson]

What's with the attitude, Dan? I'm just trying to understand what it is that you're proposing. I can't read your mind, so I have to go by the words you use and explanations you give.

You, on the other hand, appear to think you can read mine? I don't need to "stop thinking that any degree will prepare you for ministry," because I don't think that now.

.

Its frustration, I will probably regret it later. I was silent one year ago because I thought it was not my place to tell a DS my gut feeling regarding a pastor he was about to appoint. I became aware of an issue with this same pastor six months later, yet again, remained silent because I could not verify the issue. In 2012, the Church of the Nazarene is one congregation lighter than in 2011, because Dan Henderson remained silent, because Dan Henderson believed that other people were better equiped to deal with the underbelly of our church. The DS took action, but not before the Easter attendance went from over 200 in 2011 to five in 2012. I have stated elsewhere, to mind your store or I will. Now you know why. This will not repeat again on my watch. Call me a self-righteous, pompous judge if you wish. I tell you now, if God is going to insist that I have to know about issues that I don't even want to know about, then it must be for a reason. If I must know, I must act. I have to live the consequenses of my inaction, there will be no more on my conscience.

We don't have strong young leaders because we are cronies. We don't have female DS's because we are bigots. We have more religion trained females working in Starbucks than we do in our churches. I won't even begin to talk about the inplausability of a minority of any time leading large white suburbian CoTN. I'm glad many of you have great experiences, it gives me hope. I just want you to take off your rose colored glasses and realize there there are issues that cannot be ignored. Stop looking at the symptoms and look at root causes. We are not exempt from these things because we are called of God. We are the ones under attack first. We are the front line. We take the hardest hits.

[Rich Schmidt]

Dan, thanks for this comment. I found it very helpful, knowing the context out of which you're speaking.

Its frustration, I will probably regret it later. I was silent one year ago because I thought it was not my place to tell a DS my gut feeling regarding a pastor he was about to appoint. I became aware of an issue with this same pastor six months later, yet again, remained silent because I could not verify the issue. In 2012, the Church of the Nazarene is one congregation lighter than in 2011, because Dan Henderson remained silent, because Dan Henderson believed that other people were better equiped to deal with the underbelly of our church. The DS took action, but not before the Easter attendance went from over 200 in 2011 to five in 2012. I have stated elsewhere, to mind your store or I will. Now you know why. This will not repeat again on my watch. Call me a self-righteous, pompous judge if you wish. I tell you now, if God is going to insist that I have to know about issues that I don't even want to know about, then it must be for a reason. If I must know, I must act. I have to live the consequenses of my inaction, there will be no more on my conscience.

As one who has pushed back against your "mind your store or I will" comments elsewhere, let me say that I certainly agree with you that you should speak up if you see a problem. I'm sorry that you felt like it wasn't your place to speak up before. What's the motto being used now with regard to possible terrorist activity? "If you see something, say something"? I think that applies in the church, too.... only we have instructions from our Lord to say something directly and privately first, before involving others, keeping the goal of repentance and restoration in front of us at all times.

We don't have strong young leaders because we are cronies. We don't have female DS's because we are bigots. We have more religion trained females working in Starbucks than we do in our churches. I won't even begin to talk about the inplausability of a minority of any time leading large white suburbian CoTN. I'm glad many of you have great experiences, it gives me hope. I just want you to take off your rose colored glasses and realize there there are issues that cannot be ignored. Stop looking at the symptoms and look at root causes. We are not exempt from these things because we are called of God. We are the ones under attack first. We are the front line. We take the hardest hits.

You might want to search through some of the threads on NazNet from before you arrived. You'll find many of us speaking up about these exact same issues, wrestling with what our responsibilities are (as pastors, laypeople, leaders, etc), and looking for ways to help move things in a better direction.

I don't think any of us are looking through rose colored glasses. We see problems, too. NazNet is a great place to bring those problems out into the open and wrestle with them.... and sometimes to celebrate and learn from the successes that others are seeing.

[Kyle Borger]

I have been called to a small church as an unpaid associate pastor. In fact I am currently serving with a local pastor's license because the district choose to not issue a district license this year. I was encouraged to try again next year. (It has been 22 years since my first district license, so I think that complicated things.)

Can I say that I will always be called to this church? No. My family did confirm that God was leading us to this church and the church also confirmed that they were to call me. I will serve my call to this church in this moment to the best of my ability. If God changes that call at a later date then I will go where He calls me.

I have served as a layperson in a larger church. I have managed budgets and committees that were 100% greater than the budget of the church I currently serve. I even remember feeling kind of important. Now I am at the very bottom in terms of where a pastor can start.

I know without a doubt this is where I am supposed to be. Should the question be, "Do pastor's ask God to send them to small churches?" I don't know about that, but once God makes it clear where you are supposed to go, you go.

I don't measure up to the rest of you. I don't have ordination. I don't have a district license. I don't have a masters and quite frankly sometimes I have no idea what you are talking about.

But what I do have is that I have given everything I am or have to Jesus. I am learning how to build relationships. I am learning how to be discipled and how to disciple. I am dedicated to represent Jesus in loving relationships. It is quite possible I will never be invited by the church to be ordained. And that does greatly trouble me at times because it feels like someone who doesn't know me is saying that my call is not authentic. But I can't let that distract me. Even if my church fails to recognize my call, my local church sees it and I will do all that I can to honor my church in my service to them.

[Michael Flowers]

Sorry Rich, I forgot that an example has to exactly match your experiences before you can get it. Think of pastoring as a vocation. Vocation=apprenticeship. Please stop thinking that any degree will prepare you for ministry. It only prepares you for the academics of your ministry, it does not prepare you for the vocation portion of your ministry. A doctorate qualifies you to teach, not preach.

Steve, I have never yet heard a pastor talk about being "called" to a smaller church. I have heard many talk about being "promoted" to a larger church. I have even heard some of them refer to themselves as CEOs. I have only met one DS that truly viewed his role as a servant to the pastor's on his district.

Michael, how many of your peers did what you did in 3 years, I'll bet not many, but I do know of one. Most people seem to go to college on the 5 and 6 year plan.

I know of one Olivet student in the ministry program who completed in three years and that is Keith Davenport who is now serving as a pastor on the Kansas City District (recently appointed this past month). However, he also flat out worked his butt off and many would say didn't have much of a social life (though he was very social, but I don't know what church work he did while he was at ONU though he was an associate while at NTS from which he is a recent graduate). As I said, it is not impossible to finish in three years, however, it is just extremely unlikely and to fulfill ordination requirements in three years I would say is 99.9% impossible. If you can show me someone who earned a BS degree in 3 years while pastoring a congregation fulltime, and doing both at a very high level I will be very impressed and congratulate the person on a job well done. The fact remains that 99.9% of the people in the world could not do that.

[Hans Deventer]

I was silent one year ago because I thought it was not my place to tell a DS my gut feeling regarding a pastor he was about to appoint. I became aware of an issue with this same pastor six months later, yet again, remained silent because I could not verify the issue. In 2012, the Church of the Nazarene is one congregation lighter than in 2011, because Dan Henderson remained silent, because Dan Henderson believed that other people were better equiped to deal with the underbelly of our church. The DS took action, but not before the Easter attendance went from over 200 in 2011 to five in 2012. I have stated elsewhere, to mind your store or I will. Now you know why. This will not repeat again on my watch. Call me a self-righteous, pompous judge if you wish. I tell you now, if God is going to insist that I have to know about issues that I don't even want to know about, then it must be for a reason. If I must know, I must act. I have to live the consequenses of my inaction, there will be no more on my conscience.

Dan, I have no problem at all with telling something to a DS, or filing an official complaint, or even starting a disciplinary process. I only have problems with people working outside the system without having any accountability for themselves. There is nothing that would require a Nazarene to remain silent.

[Dan Henderson]

I know of one Olivet student in the ministry program who completed in three years and that is Keith Davenport who is now serving as a pastor on the Kansas City District (recently appointed this past month).

I know Keith, from the Sterling Church. Top notch Bible quizzer too. I really just don't buy into impossible. I just see challenges and choices.

[Greg Gates]

Steve, I have never yet heard a pastor talk about being "called" to a smaller church. I have heard many talk about being "promoted" to a larger church. I have even heard some of them refer to themselves as CEOs. I have only met one DS that truly viewed his role as a servant to the pastor's on his district.

I've known pastor's who have taken smaller churches because of God's call... me being one that has done it for 3 of the 4 churches I have pastored. I also know of several pastors who have said no when a larger church invited them to interview (again me being only one who has done it several times).

I was humbled/inspired by Steve Morely (current missionary to Ireland) as he shared such a story from his past with me.

And opposite of you, every DS I have had (9 to date) truly views their role as a servant to the pastors on his and her district.

[Cam Pence]

Top notch Bible quizzer too.

And, on a side note, pretty good at Modern Warfare 3

[Greg Gates]

Probably for the same reasons you don't see very many CEO's under the age of 25 or 30 in very large companies. Even with extremely talented people and high quality education it takes time to learn the skills necessary to lead larger organizations. There are some extraordinary people that can pull it off very young but most of the rest of us have to work through the learning curve.

Along with that an example from a 1%er...

Zuckerberg, 27... "now has to prove he has the leadership skills to deliver enough growth to justify the company’s valuation... The challenge he has is: Can Mark grow as quickly as his company has grown? And can Mark grow faster than his company has grown? Because, of course, that’s what a leader must do.”

[Michael Flowers]

I know Keith, from the Sterling Church. Top notch Bible quizzer too. I really just don't buy into impossible. I just see challenges and choices.

It does come to down to challenges and choices but for many people I feel that the challenges of pastoring and the challenges of schooling cannot co-exist. For this past semester I have been serving as a senior pastor full time while taking one (just one) course and have found it highly difficult to keep up with the work of the class because the work of the church must come first. Now granted, I have also gotten engaged this semester and so all of these add together, but that is exactly my point. With the normal aspects of life going on it is highly unlikely (I'll quit saying impossible) and improbable that a student could pastor and go to school fulltime. If one chooses not to take advantage of the myriad of social opportunities (which are important) and chooses to seclude oneself except when doing ministry, then it is definitely possible, otherwise I do not see it as being possible. There are many distractions which college life introduces and some of these distractions must be entertained in order to grow as a person. I regret not having done more things in college, I do not regret taking four years to earn and education before I took on the additional challenge of pastoring. In all likelihood if I had tried to pastor while going to school as an undergrad I would have burned out and possibly even left the church. That's just my opinion of the subject.

[Billy Cox]

It does come to down to challenges and choices but for many people I feel that the challenges of pastoring and the challenges of schooling cannot co-exist. For this past semester I have been serving as a senior pastor full time while taking one (just one) course and have found it highly difficult to keep up with the work of the class because the work of the church must come first. Now granted, I have also gotten engaged this semester and so all of these add together, but that is exactly my point. With the normal aspects of life going on it is highly unlikely (I'll quit saying impossible) and improbable that a student could pastor and go to school fulltime. If one chooses not to take advantage of the myriad of social opportunities (which are important) and chooses to seclude oneself except when doing ministry, then it is definitely possible, otherwise I do not see it as being possible. There are many distractions which college life introduces and some of these distractions must be entertained in order to grow as a person. I regret not having done more things in college, I do not regret taking four years to earn and education before I took on the additional challenge of pastoring. In all likelihood if I had tried to pastor while going to school as an undergrad I would have burned out and possibly even left the church. That's just my opinion of the subject.

It might sound counterintuitive, but it's probably easier to balance a full-time job with 3-4 classes, than with just 1 class.

[Bill Morrison]

It might sound counterintuitive, but it's probably easier to balance a full-time job with 3-4 classes, than with just 1 class.

Billy makes a valuable point. Time management is the key, and a person might actually be better off trying to work several classes into their busy schedule instead of just one. Their classes will of necessity become a priority in their life. (Obviously there is a limit to this)
In a similar vein, I am hestitant to advise students to schedule all their classes on MWF and take nothing on Tuesday/Thursday . They think it is great idea: they will have a whole day or two to study..NOT! They will sleep in, play video games, chew their cud half the day, etc, etc. and get nothing done on those days. (Why am I so wise about this? Well, I too used to be a student....and we didn't even have video games and similar distractions then!)

BILL

[Michael Flowers]

It might sound counterintuitive, but it's probably easier to balance a full-time job with 3-4 classes, than with just 1 class.

At times yes. In my specific case I have a two hour one way drive to Olivet, thus, more classes would definitely not be possible. Add to this the fact that there are not enough churches within that same 2 hour space of travel to accommodate the couple hundred students studying ministry at ONU and it then more clearly becomes impossible (and there I did say and mean it) for students to complete the 3 years of service and course work all within four years of schooling (no student could afford to work fulltime in ministry for free while also going to school fulltime, and there is no way to add a fulltime job to all of that, especially if driving an hour or so to school every day).

[Rich Schmidt]

So.... this thread has meandered a little bit, but I don't think we've wandered too far from Dan's intentions for the conversation.

Dan? Would you like to chime in and continue the conversation? Or has it pretty much run its course?

[Keith Davenport]

I know of one Olivet student in the ministry program who completed in three years and that is Keith Davenport who is now serving as a pastor on the Kansas City District (recently appointed this past month). However, he also flat out worked his butt off and many would say didn't have much of a social life (though he was very social, but I don't know what church work he did while he was at ONU though he was an associate while at NTS from which he is a recent graduate). As I said, it is not impossible to finish in three years, however, it is just extremely unlikely and to fulfill ordination requirements in three years I would say is 99.9% impossible. If you can show me someone who earned a BS degree in 3 years while pastoring a congregation fulltime, and doing both at a very high level I will be very impressed and congratulate the person on a job well done. The fact remains that 99.9% of the people in the world could not do that.

Apparently my ears have been burning for 7 months. I have finally eased the burning and joined NazNet. Two comments:

1. I think that it would be impossible to be in a full-time assigned ministry position and complete your undergraduate degree within 4 years. It wouldn't be impossible to complete in 5-7 years, perhaps. I was part-time assigned and only graduated early due to summer classes and CLEP credits.
2. Michael --> All I have to say about the "social life" comment is that I got married my senior year.

[David Graham]

I have been called to a small church as an unpaid associate pastor. In fact I am currently serving with a local pastor's license because the district choose to not issue a district license this year. I was encouraged to try again next year. (It has been 22 years since my first district license, so I think that complicated things.)

Can I say that I will always be called to this church? No. My family did confirm that God was leading us to this church and the church also confirmed that they were to call me. I will serve my call to this church in this moment to the best of my ability. If God changes that call at a later date then I will go where He calls me.

I have served as a layperson in a larger church. I have managed budgets and committees that were 100% greater than the budget of the church I currently serve. I even remember feeling kind of important. Now I am at the very bottom in terms of where a pastor can start.

I know without a doubt this is where I am supposed to be. Should the question be, "Do pastor's ask God to send them to small churches?" I don't know about that, but once God makes it clear where you are supposed to go, you go.

I don't measure up to the rest of you. I don't have ordination. I don't have a district license. I don't have a masters and quite frankly sometimes I have no idea what you are talking about.

But what I do have is that I have given everything I am or have to Jesus. I am learning how to build relationships. I am learning how to be discipled and how to disciple. I am dedicated to represent Jesus in loving relationships. It is quite possible I will never be invited by the church to be ordained. And that does greatly trouble me at times because it feels like someone who doesn't know me is saying that my call is not authentic. But I can't let that distract me. Even if my church fails to recognize my call, my local church sees it and I will do all that I can to honor my church in my service to them.

In my opinion Kyle, you have been treated by the church "unjustly!" It seems that for 22 years the church recognised that you had a call to serve but now they...... don't????? Crazy!

Not that the church conspired to single you out for harsh treatment (at least I hope not..... but I don't know your situation) but that most likely you haven't "ticked off all of the boxes" and therefore the church can't ordain you. In the first century, I suspect you most probably would have been ordained...... ironic isn't it!?

But this "systemic failure" might be the cause of many of our other concerns as well, even if the system is enshrined in practice more than in law, such as why Minister's under 30 can't lead large churches; or that on some districts it takes an average of 15 years (or more) before a person is ordained. The one size fits all approach doesn't make room for notable exceptions, and those exceptions are clearly out there.

There are e.g. people out there who don't have a theological/ministry degree that would still make great ministers.
There are young ministers out there who would do a wonderful job leading large churches.
There are young men and women just out of college who are ready to be ordained at the time they graduate with their degrees..... I know because we normally ordain candidates into the ministry who have graduated from college after one year of placement.

Maybe the system is "broke" and needs to be changed! Before the system "breaks" too many more people! After all, we are to "do what is just; love mercy; and walk humbly with our God...." (and supposedly with others..... but that is another question)

[Michael Flowers]

Apparently my ears have been burning for 7 months. I have finally eased the burning and joined NazNet. Two comments:

1. I think that it would be impossible to be in a full-time assigned ministry position and complete your undergraduate degree within 4 years. It wouldn't be impossible to complete in 5-7 years, perhaps. I was part-time assigned and only graduated early due to summer classes and CLEP credits.
2. Michael --> All I have to say about the "social life" comment is that I got married my senior year.

Welcome Keith! Hope you enjoy your time here.

[David Pettigrew]

The new pastor of Richardson appears to be young. Chris Galloway, coming from Indianapolis Gracepointe. Does that fit in with the thread topic?

[Michael Flowers]

The new pastor of Richardson appears to be young. Chris Galloway, coming from Indianapolis Gracepointe. Does that fit in with the thread topic?

He isn't really young anymore. At least two of his kids are in college (one son still in high school that I know of, maybe some younger). I hadn't heard that he was leaving Grace Pointe, he really hasn't been there very long (2-3 years).