Our pastor is always into "Fresh" Music.

[Scott Moseley]

Do you believe there is a correlation between the songs sung for worship and the vibrancy of a church congregation. ie the fresher the songs the more spiritually awake the church is? Our pastor often mentions this theme in his discussions and often jokes about how worn out "As a deer panteth" is . His take is, if you are stuck singing 80s /90s worship music it indicates you havnt gotten out of a some type of spiritual rut. And heaven forbid any Hymns would ever be sung..no never.

We ll I have to go along with him on " AS a deer".. but I think singing and worshiping with some "oldies" and Hymns might more better indicate spiritual maturity and not necessarily crustiness. What do you all think.

[Eric Frey]

Do you believe there is a correlation between the songs sung for worship and the vibrancy of a church congregation. ie the fresher the songs the more spiritually awake the church is? Our pastor often mentions this theme in his discussions and often jokes about how worn out "As a deer panteth" is . His take is, if you are stuck singing 80s /90s worship music it indicates you havnt gotten out of a some type of spiritual rut. And heaven forbid any Hymns would ever be sung..no never.

We ll I have to go along with him on " AS a deer".. but I think singing and worshiping with some "oldies" and Hymns might more better indicate spiritual maturity and not necessarily crustiness. What do you all think.

Isn't "As the Deer" just a psalm set to music...

I had a conversation with a well respected mentor one time. He was complaining about how many new books were being published. He said there were so many new books coming out it was hard to tell what was worth reading and not. His conclusion was that he'd only read books that have been around 100 years and are still being read. If they stand the test of time, they will be worth reading. I simply replied that that was my approach to worship music. It's not really, but I think the point is that content determines whether it is a good song or a bad song, an appropriate song for worship or an inappropriate song for worship. How long it has been around is probably of secondary, or maybe tertiary importance...

[Bill Morrison]

While I can see some merit in the argument, I could be quite naughty and turn it around and see merit in the opposite point of view. How mature is a Christian who can't understand and digest the Biblical truths contained in the old hymns and even some of the survivors of the 80's/90's worship music scene? I don't see that "vibrancy" should be the ultimate test of worship, especially if it comes at the expense of depth and maturity. (And you know what, I think I really would have said this 40 years ago when I was 21 too!) I am with you in the idea that balance is important and I applaud many of our worship leaders in the COTN (like David Hubbs at my Olathe College Church) who are doing a great job in walking us through this minefield.

BILL

[Jim Franklin]

I believe that name, David Hubbs, is familiar as a student when I was at Bethany.

[Sarah Smith]

We have a fresh, vibrant congregation that is growing by leaps and bounds.....more teens, kids, young adults, middle aged, and oldies come every week.

I think our newest freshest song yesterday was written in around 1825. Our organist was absent and we sang acapella and raised the roof.

Nah, new music may be a good add on. It certainly is a profitable one for the publishers. But new music doesn't equal an alive, vibrant church.

[Greg Farra]

The older I get, the more aware I am of an attitude among some that anything old is boring or hokey. There's a bit of snobbery involved, and the people that want only the 'hippest new music' are becoming like the fuddie duddies they mock. They get into a mindset that MY music is the best. I like old, new, all kinds of worship music. Getting caught in one kind of music is pretty narrow minded, IMHO.

[John Kennedy]

Nothing I could say about the guy would be either kind or helpful. I'm simply glad I'm working in the situation I'm in.

This is my operating principle: God is the author of both tradition and innovation and will use either (or both) for his glory if we allow him to.

[Greg Farra]

I was told by one person when I requested a certain song that I was 'recycling' the song, whatever that meant.

[Mike Schutz]

Well, we sang songs yesterday from 2009, 1998, 1974, and 1886 (I Know Whom I Have Believed).

I would agree that if all we did was music of one style or from one snippet of time, we would be "stuck." (For example, a few of our folks would be happy if all we sang were Gaither songs. I, on the other hand, would kill myself.)

I have had several interesting disagreements with folks who only want churches to do "new" music. I find them to be even sillier than those who only want churches to do "old" music.

[Greg Farra]

I am finding that we don't educate pastors enough about worship. MVNU now includes a unit on it as part of the Certificate of Ministry Preparation program.

[Sarah Smith]

One thing I love about dh's pastor--the music is always chosen with the text and sermon in mind, be it old, new or in between.

[Wilson Deaton]

Isn't "As the Deer" just a psalm set to music....

As the deer PANTETH... Not just a Psalm. A King James' Psalm...

Wilson

[Bill Morrison]

I believe that name, David Hubbs, is familiar as a student when I was at Bethany.

Yes, I have been told that he and his saxophone were the "life of the party" back then.

BILL

[Jim Poteet]

I believe that name, David Hubbs, is familiar as a student when I was at Bethany.

David Hubbs & Les Stallings led the Pep Band.

[Meghan Schoonover]

I think it's unnerving to walk into a church service and not know 6 out of the 7 songs b/c they're the latest thing played on the radio. It's definitely not my preference to do only the "freshest" music. I think music is incredibly connected to memory (hopefully pleasant memories!) and words when sung get indelibly printed on your heart and mind.

On the other hand, there's definitely some songs that can seem dated or overdone. Sometimes those just need a rest for a bit. I try to have a variety - hopefully if you walked into our service (assuming a somewhat churched person...obviously unchurched they'd be mostly unfamiliar) there would be at least one song/hymn you could sing from memory and another that you hadn't heard before.

[Bob Hunter]

I have sorta a confession. I do love new music. I like experimental praise (i.e., experimenting with different sounds and styles). For example, I love what Gungor is doing. I also love a group by the name of Pas Neos, very deep spiritually reflective music put to electronic sounds. Michael Ketterer is also doing some amazing stuff, he is a bit closer to a Peter Gabriel style. And I like some Celtic music thrown in for good measure.

I also like hard music in the vain of RED and Thousand Foot Krutch. Screetching guitars, soaring vocals; now that is what I'm talking about.

Needless to say, it is a bit of a step back when I come to worship and we are singing something that is old and worn out (and everyone knows it). But I sing along, I'm not one to poo hoo what is going on in worship. I try to worship in whatever context I find myself in.

[Wes Smith]

This thread totally supports my evolving (yes, I believe in evolution!) theory that worship music is little about God and much about "me!" Where in the world did this idea come from that humans have the capacity to sing songs with which God is particularly pleased in light of the human prejudice to sing them based on what "I" like the best?

Time to stop the insanity. And, I say that not having the slightest (since I cannot rememberhow to spell faintest) idea about what we would do as an alternative. Perhaps we could re-label the singing part of "worship" and call it a "sing along" or "my favorites" or "name that tune" or "happy harmonies." Or, something.

Media is a huge factor. Big name Christian performers are huge factors. Money is huge...people will more readily attend where they like the music best.

Honest, the most sensible alternative to me seems to revolve around making our bodies a living sacrifice, but there doesn't seem to be a very sexy, harmonic, rythmatic way to make that happen.

And, I say this as a person who loves most types of music. I prefer Southern Gospel, but freely admit that my preference is all about me. I truly love singing what I love to sing! And, I'm pretty sure that God loves Southern Gospel best too. He must be totally put off by hard rock because I know I am. Pretty sure he doesn't like music where he cannot understand or relate to the lyrics because I know I don't.

I would love for someone someday to assemble a God-personality-profile based on theology that God is in heaven put off by or impressed by...music. What kind of God draws satisfaction from Sunday morning worship and by "praise" gatherings? Seriously. Isn't there something He is more interested in than music?

Friend,

Wes

[Wes Smith]

Is there any information out regarding the areas of Christianity where we spend the most money? Music (including concerts & the entire commercial aspect), discipleship, salaries, children's ministry, teens, seniors, buildings? Annually. Not sure what such a study would reveal. Positive that there is no movement in Christianity that approaches the local, regional, national and international focus on music. For instance, it is obvious that there is no venture that encourages or entices individuals or groups of people to go around emphasizing children's ministries that compares in the slightest with soloists, music groups, concerts, etc.

Friend,

Wes

[Michael Flowers]

Is there any information out regarding the areas of Christianity where we spend the most money? Music (including concerts & the entire commercial aspect), discipleship, salaries, children's ministry, teens, seniors, buildings? Annually. Not sure what such a study would reveal. Positive that there is no movement in Christianity that approaches the local, regional, national and international focus on music. For instance, it is obvious that there is no venture that encourages or entices individuals or groups of people to go around emphasizing children's ministries that compares in the slightest with soloists, music groups, concerts, etc.

Friend,

Wes

Salaries would likely be the area where the most money is spent across the board. There may be some churches that spend more on a specific ministry area, but I think you will find that usually salaries are the single most expensive area of church spending (though this is not a problem).

[Bob Hunter]

Is there any information out regarding the areas of Christianity where we spend the most money? Music (including concerts & the entire commercial aspect), discipleship, salaries, children's ministry, teens, seniors, buildings? Annually. Not sure what such a study would reveal. Positive that there is no movement in Christianity that approaches the local, regional, national and international focus on music. For instance, it is obvious that there is no venture that encourages or entices individuals or groups of people to go around emphasizing children's ministries that compares in the slightest with soloists, music groups, concerts, etc.

Friend,

Wes

But music crosses over into most areas of the Church whether it be childrens, youth, evangelism, etc. So it only makes sense we devote our resources accordingly. For example, we may hold an evangelistic event at our Church, but it may be in the form of a concert and that may require sound equipment and so on. Even Bible quizzing events often feature some segments of rehearsed worship music to begin and end the meets. Senior groups meet together and usually do what? Sing Hymns and have a pot-luck. So I'm not sure we can separate music out that way.

But I would agree that our lust for contemporary worship bands has gotten a bit out of hand. It cost a lot of money to run the operation. Seasoned worship leaders come at a very dear price and the equipment and personnel needed to keep it going are quite considerable. If one looks at what it takes to keep the worship team happy, it might be a little overwhelming. There are volunteers involved in organizing sheet music, lighting, sound, playing instruments, singing, set-up, tear-down, scheduling rehearsals, etc. To do it and do it well requires an investment. Of course, most Nazarene churches are small and cannot pull this off so they end up doing B or C grade contemporary praise music on a ridiculous budget. In some cases, it just comes out really bad and it would probably be better for the Church to do traditional stuff and do it well than slaughter the latest Hillsong tune.

[Marsha Lynn]

The older I get, the more aware I am of an attitude among some that anything old is boring or hokey. There's a bit of snobbery involved, and the people that want only the 'hippest new music' are becoming like the fuddie duddies they mock. They get into a mindset that MY music is the best. I like old, new, all kinds of worship music. Getting caught in one kind of music is pretty narrow minded, IMHO.

The interesting thing is that there is always one more level of snobbery. The person who thinks his or her church is at the forefront in using the latest and greatest praise music will be looked down on by someone who sees all praise and worship music as an inferior imitation of what is being composed and performed in the secular world.

[Linda Bechtold]

I have sorta a confession. I do love new music. I like experimental praise (i.e., experimenting with different sounds and styles). For example, I love what Gungor is doing. I also love a group by the name of Pas Neos, very deep spiritually reflective music put to electronic sounds. Michael Ketterer is also doing some amazing stuff, he is a bit closer to a Peter Gabriel style. And I like some Celtic music thrown in for good measure.

I also like hard music in the vain of RED and Thousand Foot Krutch. Screetching guitars, soaring vocals; now that is what I'm talking about.

Needless to say, it is a bit of a step back when I come to worship and we are singing something that is old and worn out (and everyone knows it). But I sing along, I'm not one to poo hoo what is going on in worship. I try to worship in whatever context I find myself in.

Wow.... I could have written this same post!

I love it when I'm in a worship service and they teach us a "new song" . I will usually go home and look it up on iTunes and add it to my "worship" playlist. It reminds me that God is always doing a new thing in me.

Bob- my 13 year old son's basketball team just won a National tournament and my husband put the highlight reel to Thousand Foot Krutch's "Fire It Up". My two favorite things- basketball and great music!!

[Bob Hunter]

Bob- my 13 year old son's basketball team just won a National tournament and my husband put the highlight reel to Thousand Foot Krutch's "Fire It Up". My two favorite things- basketball and great music!!

That is great! I just picked up TFK's latest and it is absolutely amazing, shot up to #6 on Itunes last week. In any event, I must still be a teenager at heart, even at 42 years of age, I love the crispness of a new rock song.

[Meghan Schoonover]

I guess where my "beef" is is if someone tells me there's no value in a certain type of music, no matter what it is, b/c of personal taste.

For example, I don't like country music. <gasps all around> Or mariachi. It all sounds the the same to me...country: twang, twangy, twang, twang. Mariachi: oompa oompa oompa oompa. There's a LOT of country and mariachi in this area. When someone, however, tells me that jazz sounds all the same, I sputter, but but, there's swing, and bebop, and fusion, and small group jazz, jazz trios, and big band, and cool jazz, and and!

A lot of music appreciation comes through understanding, and I'm making a beginning attempt at understanding the differences between mariachi styles, even if I don't understand the words. Some of schools around here have a some excellent mariachi bands and there's a nearby town that hosts a HS mariachi competition. This is a great little video about them:

What I'm saying is music at church, the more I think about it, is just like anyplace else - personal taste. Personal taste can change through understanding and listening, but there's not even anything wrong with personal taste. It's when a person's personal taste is elevated that it's problematic - I don't like repetition so this type of praise music =/= worship; not enough hymns in my view so =/= worship; songs aren't new enough so =/= worship; too loud so =/= worship.

I've also been thinking about it, b/c the initial post kind of bugged me, but really, why is having only the latest songs any different from a "cowboy" church, or a church that had more of a mariachi/Mexican style music? I wouldn't have an issue with either of those churches (and we have plenty in our area) even if I wouldn't necessarily attend b/c it's not appealing to me. So I guess it's more the attitude than the actual idea of having ultra-current music, the attitude that your spiritual life must be stale b/c your songs are stale, when really the whole discussion centers more around personal taste than any value inherent in the music.

Hmm.

[Marsha Lynn]

Is there any information out regarding the areas of Christianity where we spend the most money? Music (including concerts & the entire commercial aspect), discipleship, salaries, children's ministry, teens, seniors, buildings? Annually. Not sure what such a study would reveal. Positive that there is no movement in Christianity that approaches the local, regional, national and international focus on music. For instance, it is obvious that there is no venture that encourages or entices individuals or groups of people to go around emphasizing children's ministries that compares in the slightest with soloists, music groups, concerts, etc.

Friend,

Wes

Churches spend money on music? I gotta look into this! My husband and I not only work for free (piano, organ/keyboard) but also buy the music! The rest of the worship team collect the same salary we do. Music cost our church around $100 last year -- the cost of the CCLI license.

I guess if you believe you get what you pay for, it's safe to assume the music is pretty pitiful here.

[Scott Moseley]

Thanks to all who have responded. I really like this church fellowship here in Cebu as its one here in the Philippines where my Kids and myself like to hear what our "fresh" pastor (he is probably mid 50 to 60 in chronological years) has to say. Its just seems that a recurring theme of the ministry is to not be a "crusty" church, but to to do things in a new way. Seems that anything looking or sounding like "church" as we grew up with is to be discarded. (where did this come from .. is this a Purpose Driven philosophy?) .

I like the worship team. they have a lot of energy they have passion and dedication; the music is great and most often they pour out stuff from old and also new music that no one knows yet. But I do miss quiet reflection music " Be still and know that I am God, I will be exalted..." and traditional hymns. I don't understand how the church could feel threatened by introducing traditional hymns to the congregation as a way of tipping the hat to the past greatness and a way of teaching and meditating on the doctrinal truths in those hymns. the church would probably find it Cool to learn something new (old) and be blown away with something like "How Great thou Art.(which is not old at all)

I thought that at Christmas we could at least sing some of the old faithful carols.. Oh we did but they were "Jazzed" up and rocked out...which was cool, but I was left homesick for "Christmas music" . And thinking what a shame it is that all these young people / Christians will most likely never be exposed Hark the Herald Angels Sing sung in triumphant fashion with full Organ Pipes blasting ! .


With some of your thoughts I will pass a nice letter of suggestion our pastor and music staff. I certainly am happy at the church and don't wont start a Hymns vs praise music tension. I just wan't offer suggestion that some of the "Old" can really be empowering and not to be threatened by introducing some the "old school" back into worship. If any of you have any suggestions how best to share my thoughts to the pastor and staff please let me know.

[Wes Smith]

Churches spend money on music? I gotta look into this! My husband and I not only work for free (piano, organ/keyboard) but also buy the music! The rest of the worship team collect the same salary we do. Music cost our church around $100 last year -- the cost of the CCLI license.

I guess if you believe you get what you pay for, it's safe to assume the music is pretty pitiful here.

Marsha,

I wasn't thinking totally about local congregations, rather, concerts, praise gatherings, cd's, downloads, number of bands/groups/soloists, time and financial resources invested, etc.

It seems to me that worship/singing/performances gets an inordinate amount of time and attention from Christianity at large. What would be the impact of other areas of ministry receiving such attention?

I realize that my little opinion here has no potential to be anything but a potential read post, but it surely does seem to me that an immense amount of time and attention is given to something that, in my opinion, has little impact in furthering Christianity.

Friend,

Wes

[Jim Chabot]

Churches spend money on music? I gotta look into this! My husband and I not only work for free (piano, organ/keyboard) but also buy the music! The rest of the worship team collect the same salary we do. Music cost our church around $100 last year -- the cost of the CCLI license.

I guess if you believe you get what you pay for, it's safe to assume the music is pretty pitiful here.

Add me to the list Marsha. Our music budget is exactly the same as yours, the cost of the license. Mind you I am not complaining, I am grateful to be able to minister in music to a loving and appreciative congregation. I'll gladly float the music budget, it's a privilege!

Plus I get to pick the songs! And my pastor and the congregation love what I pick! Could this be heaven?

[Karen Troxler]

My daughter is a collaborative pianist, and we went to one of her concerts Sunday night (which of course, was excellent)! After a concert, she is always "pumped" so called me as she was driving home later to talk. She said that after a concert, she is both exhilarated and exhausted, because she puts so much of herself into her playing. (Much like her father and I feel after preaching.) As a collaborative pianist, she not only has to be able to play many different types of music (mostly classical), but also understand the poetry of the words, which helps her interpret the emotions of the music appropriately. She is also the Pastor of Worship at her church. Although she is young (almost 25), she said she selects the music primarily because of the words and message of the song, not the style. All of that to say, that I agree that it is "silly" to say that one particular style of music is the best, and all others show that one is in a spiritual rut. Worship comes from our heart and should be focused on God not ourselves.

[Jim Chabot]

This thread totally supports my evolving (yes, I believe in evolution!) theory that worship music is little about God and much about "me!" Where in the world did this idea come from that humans have the capacity to sing songs with which God is particularly pleased in light of the human prejudice to sing them based on what "I" like the best?

Time to stop the insanity. And, I say that not having the slightest (since I cannot rememberhow to spell faintest) idea about what we would do as an alternative. Perhaps we could re-label the singing part of "worship" and call it a "sing along" or "my favorites" or "name that tune" or "happy harmonies." Or, something.

Media is a huge factor. Big name Christian performers are huge factors. Money is huge...people will more readily attend where they like the music best.

Honest, the most sensible alternative to me seems to revolve around making our bodies a living sacrifice, but there doesn't seem to be a very sexy, harmonic, rythmatic way to make that happen.

And, I say this as a person who loves most types of music. I prefer Southern Gospel, but freely admit that my preference is all about me. I truly love singing what I love to sing! And, I'm pretty sure that God loves Southern Gospel best too. He must be totally put off by hard rock because I know I am. Pretty sure he doesn't like music where he cannot understand or relate to the lyrics because I know I don't.

I would love for someone someday to assemble a God-personality-profile based on theology that God is in heaven put off by or impressed by...music. What kind of God draws satisfaction from Sunday morning worship and by "praise" gatherings? Seriously. Isn't there something He is more interested in than music?

Friend,

Wes

Yeah well I don't believe in evolution! So there! Kidding! Not about the evolution, but great post Wes!

I'm with you, I don't believe that God gives a rip about the style of music, the instruments played, nor the volume. (gasp!)

But I do firmly believe that He inhabits the praise of His people. And His people do care about these things, thus the style, instruments or volume can be an inhibition to praise, reflection and worship. I do believe that music is ministry, and I believe that it is an integral part of our gathering to worship.

This forms this question in my mind. How can I best enable the folks to which I minister to worship and praise Him! How do I do this, that's the question. Some folks lean back, close their eyes and completely lose themselves in some of the grand anthems of the church. Others may be moved to tears by a song that reveals triumph over great trouble. Some folks jump up and down and get all excited about songs that speak of heaven. Songs need to lead into the message, folks need to be already of the same mind with the pastor before he speaks. Oh wait..............style isn't even a part of this yet!

Some folks love a slow reflective song. I had a request last week that we should sing "The Old Rugged Cross", wow! What an impression was made on some folks. This week I'll be singing "In The Garden" as the offertory, one of our members told me last week that his dad would sing that song to him at bedtime as a boy, he thought that his dad had wrote it. The young people get all happy when we sing "fresh" music. I've made a commitment to them, that we will do those songs justice. I'll take one and listen to it looped around on my iPod for 12 hours or more if I need to, as lond as it takes to get it right.

And you know what I've found? I've found that folks have learned to appreciate that some one else's music is ministering to them. They all get a turn, I make sure of that! Most of our services use a wide variety of music, Once a month we will do music that is all of one style. We alternate between "high church" where we use only pipe organ and we sing big giant anthems! Another week will be "contemporary" if it isn't on Klove we don't sing it, and of course I wear jeans on that week. My favorite is "country" all southern gospel, yes that requires jeans as well. And another week we will do revival and convention singing.

And of course God loves southern gospel the very best, no doubt about it. Just think, He's got Denver Crumpler, Rosie Rosell, Doy Ott, Hovie Lister, James & R.W. Blackwood, London Paris, Big Chief, JD Sumner, George Younce, Roger Bennet, Jackie Marshall, Wally Varner, Glenn Payne, Jack Toney, Happy, Rusty and Vestal Goodman and Jake Hess.

Wow! What a celebration!

[Marsha Lynn]

Some folks love a slow reflective song. I had a request last week that we should sing "The Old Rugged Cross", wow! What an impression was made on some folks. This week I'll be singing "In The Garden" as the offertory, one of our members told me last week that his dad would sing that song to him at bedtime as a boy, he thought that his dad had wrote it. The young people get all happy when we sing "fresh" music. I've made a commitment to them, that we will do those songs justice. I'll take one and listen to it looped around on my iPod for 12 hours or more if I need to, as lond as it takes to get it right.

And you know what I've found? I've found that folks have learned to appreciate that some one else's music is ministering to them. They all get a turn, I make sure of that! Most of our services use a wide variety of music, Once a month we will do music that is all of one style. We alternate between "high church" where we use only pipe organ and we sing big giant anthems! Another week will be "contemporary" if it isn't on Klove we don't sing it, and of course I wear jeans on that week. My favorite is "country" all southern gospel, yes that requires jeans as well. And another week we will do revival and convention singing.

And of course God loves southern gospel the very best...

Great post, Jim. I like your theme Sunday idea and will suggest it to my daughter/music director. The closest we come to that is rotating the music selection assignment through four different musicians. We work with a "core list" but the preferences of each of the selectors comes through. And we try to be very responsive to those in the congregation who care enough about the music to make suggestions.

Right now our music selections, or at least the order in which we sing them, are being driven by our demon-possessed video projector. It will loop slides endlessly during our practice -- play videos, run for a couple of hours, freeze and unfreeze, whatever. But every Sunday morning about the time of the offering it flickers a few times and then dies. It was happening maybe once every couple of months for a while, but lately has been every Sunday morning. It doesn't matter when the projector is turned on. It never makes it through the song service. So all songs past the offertory need to be from the hymnal. Rather frustrating, to say the least. Fortunately, it's only a problem for the music since our pastor doesn't use slides with his sermon. And we have retained the hymnals in our pews so they are available during these weekly emergencies.

Does anyone have a good exorcism ritual for video projectors?

Marsha

PS: Maybe I should be careful about attributing our problems to demons. It might be the Spirit prompting us to change the way we take the offering or to use more hymns or something. I'll be glad when we catch on to whatever message we need to receive. We're thinking maybe we need to invite the entire congregation to our practices to see if that's the factor we're missing.

[Marsha Lynn]

Marsha,

I wasn't thinking totally about local congregations, rather, concerts, praise gatherings, cd's, downloads, number of bands/groups/soloists, time and financial resources invested, etc.

It seems to me that worship/singing/performances gets an inordinate amount of time and attention from Christianity at large. What would be the impact of other areas of ministry receiving such attention?

I realize that my little opinion here has no potential to be anything but a potential read post, but it surely does seem to me that an immense amount of time and attention is given to something that, in my opinion, has little impact in furthering Christianity.

Friend,

Wes

I guess it depends on your relationship to music. Mine is very strong. I'm often aware of the "elevator music" wafting past me in public places, even though it's designed to be completely ignored by the public.

I remember that my pastor from ages 8 to 10 regularly chose "Softly and Tenderly" as an invitational. I don't remember a word he preached, but when someone chose "Softly and Tenderly" as a special a few years ago, it still struck a sensitive place in my heart as it did when I became an altar regular during those years.

I hadn't bought a ticket to a concert for several years until a couple of weeks ago when my husband and I went to see J. J. Heller. Her song that asks "Who will love me for me? Not for what I have done or what I will become?" has really stuck with me since the first time I heard it. How many people around me are asking that question? How can I better appreciate them for who they are today?

There are multiple songs stored away in my memory banks that regularly call me to greater commitment -- "My Soul Desire" by Deniece Williams, multiple songs by Dallas Holm -- "Image of a Man," "If All I Ever Knew," Though He Slay Me" -- "What If I Stumble?" by DC Talk, "The Smell of the Color 9" by Chris Rice (which I have quoted in multiple threads around here) and others by him, "Blessing in the Thorn" and others by Phillips, Craig, & Dean, "There is a Line" by Susan Ashton, "The Anchor Holds" by Ray Boltz. More recently, "Blessing" by Laura Story came up multiple times in a local radio station's play list with such perfect timing that it seemed God's fingerprints were all over it.

There's not a single sermon that has had as much impact on my life as any one of those songs. A few books might be in the competition, but not many and they aren't nearly so accessible to my memory. Recorded music is memorable, repeatable, and, in my case, a powerful emotional experience. It can make me dance, make me cry, and make my heart soar and my faith surge unlike anything else in the world.

The idea that recorded music has "little impact in furthering Christianity" is foreign to me. I'm more in line with a song from the group "Truth". It is so old (80s?) and so fuzzy in my memory that I can't bring up the words in Google, but it tells several stories of troubled people sitting in church and being caught up, not by spoken words, but by the music pulling them to a point of decision and transformation.

Still, I'll agree with you that there's probably a lot of devotion to professional Christian music and the musicians that make it that has little to do with spiritual formation. All the inordinate attention given to music that doesn't appeal to me surely falls into that realm.



Marsha

[Peggy Gray]

There’s a vintage Peanuts cartoon where Lucy, Linus and Charlie Brown are looking up at the clouds. Linus says, “…Those clouds up there look to me like a map of British Honduras on the Caribbean…that cloud up there looks a little like the profile of Thomas Eakins, the famous painter and sculptor…and that group of clouds over there gives me the impression of the Stoning of Stephen. I can see the Apostle Paul standing there to one side.” Lucy asks Charlie Brown what HE sees in the clouds, and Charlie Brown says, “Well…I was going to say I saw a duckie and a horsie, but I changed my mind.”

I feel like Charlie Brown these days when the discussion turns to church music.

[Wilson Deaton]

PS: Maybe I should be careful about attributing our problems to demons. It might be the Spirit prompting us to change the way we take the offering or to use more hymns or something...

I think you're right about the demon theory. I just can't imagine the Spirit prompting you back to the hymnal!

Wilson

[Sarah Smith]

I've gotten downright grateful that we have such a wide variety of worship and music styles in our town.

Oh, we don't all try to fit into one building and then fight over how to do it.

But no matter what leads you to the Throne I think you can find it.

[Susan Unger]

There’s a vintage Peanuts cartoon where Lucy, Linus and Charlie Brown are looking up at the clouds. Linus says, “…Those clouds up there look to me like a map of British Honduras on the Caribbean…that cloud up there looks a little like the profile of Thomas Eakins, the famous painter and sculptor…and that group of clouds over there gives me the impression of the Stoning of Stephen. I can see the Apostle Paul standing there to one side.” Lucy asks Charlie Brown what HE sees in the clouds, and Charlie Brown says, “Well…I was going to say I saw a duckie and a horsie, but I changed my mind.”

I feel like Charlie Brown these days when the discussion turns to church music.

Good analogy. I tend to be with Lucy in this regard.

[Jim Chabot]

I think you're right about the demon theory. I just can't imagine the Spirit prompting you back to the hymnal!

Wilson

It's been quite a while since we have been forced back to the hymnal via the machinations of a demon possessed projector or computer. Problem solved by unfriending Bill Gates an replacing the projector. I especially dread using the hymnal because I need reading glasses to read it, and I feel stupid standing there holding the book with one and, directing with the other and trying to keep up with looking over or through the glasses.

The last time we needed to use the hymnals, I announced that we needed to do scheduled maintenance on them, we were checking for moth damage.

[Marsha Lynn]

It's been quite a while since we have been forced back to the hymnal via the machinations of a demon possessed projector or computer. Problem solved by unfriending Bill Gates an replacing the projector..

We may have had a break-through on the projector problem last evening. We invited the sound booth people to practice and it didn't take long at all for the projector to die -- first time during practice. Apparently, the failure is connected to having people in the sound booth (and a couple of extras in the pews).

I suppose we could also go with some wag's idea that overheating is the problem. The sanctuary is always warm on Sunday morning. During practice we've learned to turn on the heat or A/C as we walk in the door during extreme cold or hot weather in order to survive the hour we spend there but lately it has just been a little on the cool side. However, our outside temps were in the high 80s yesterday so the sanctuary was warmer than usual for practice.

So we might have found the problem, which makes us at least a little further toward finding a solution. I wonder if people would mind if we set the thermostats to 68 on Sunday morning and provided complimentary shawls and blankets.

[Michael Flowers]

We may have had a break-through on the projector problem last evening. We invited the sound booth people to practice and it didn't take long at all for the projector to die -- first time during practice. Apparently, the failure is connected to having people in the sound booth (and a couple of extras in the pews).

I suppose we could also go with some wag's idea that overheating is the problem. The sanctuary is always warm on Sunday morning. During practice we've learned to turn on the heat or A/C as we walk in the door during extreme cold or hot weather in order to survive the hour we spend there but lately it has just been a little on the cool side. However, our outside temps were in the high 80s yesterday so the sanctuary was warmer than usual for practice.

So we might have found the problem, which makes us at least a little further toward finding a solution. I wonder if people would mind if we set the thermostats to 68 on Sunday morning and provided complimentary shawls and blankets.

It sounds like maybe you need to check and see if the cooling fan inside the projector is working. It is also possible that the air filter needs to be cleaned out because it has become too full and so air can't pass through. Just a couple of thoughts.

[Gina Stevenson]

In alignment with what Marsha said, while not debunking preaching, overall it seems to have been music that can imprint something in my mind/soul in a more permanent fashion than a sermon. (b/c we are musicians, perhaps, and have always leaned that way?)

I guess it depends on your relationship to music. Mine is very strong. I'm often aware of the "elevator music" wafting past me in public places, even though it's designed to be completely ignored by the public.

I remember that my pastor from ages 8 to 10 regularly chose "Softly and Tenderly" as an invitational. I don't remember a word he preached, but when someone chose "Softly and Tenderly" as a special a few years ago, it still struck a sensitive place in my heart as it did when I became an altar regular during those years.

I hadn't bought a ticket to a concert for several years until a couple of weeks ago when my husband and I went to see J. J. Heller. Her song that asks "Who will love me for me? Not for what I have done or what I will become?" has really stuck with me since the first time I heard it. How many people around me are asking that question? How can I better appreciate them for who they are today?

There are multiple songs stored away in my memory banks that regularly call me to greater commitment -- "My Soul Desire" by Deniece Williams, multiple songs by Dallas Holm -- "Image of a Man," "If All I Ever Knew," Though He Slay Me" -- "What If I Stumble?" by DC Talk, "The Smell of the Color 9" by Chris Rice (which I have quoted in multiple threads around here) and others by him, "Blessing in the Thorn" and others by Phillips, Craig, & Dean, "There is a Line" by Susan Ashton, "The Anchor Holds" by Ray Boltz. More recently, "Blessing" by Laura Story came up multiple times in a local radio station's play list with such perfect timing that it seemed God's fingerprints were all over it.

There's not a single sermon that has had as much impact on my life as any one of those songs. A few books might be in the competition, but not many and they aren't nearly so accessible to my memory. Recorded music is memorable, repeatable, and, in my case, a powerful emotional experience. It can make me dance, make me cry, and make my heart soar and my faith surge unlike anything else in the world.

The idea that recorded music has "little impact in furthering Christianity" is foreign to me. I'm more in line with a song from the group "Truth". It is so old (80s?) and so fuzzy in my memory that I can't bring up the words in Google, but it tells several stories of troubled people sitting in church and being caught up, not by spoken words, but by the music pulling them to a point of decision and transformation.

Still, I'll agree with you that there's probably a lot of devotion to professional Christian music and the musicians that make it that has little to do with spiritual formation. All the inordinate attention given to music that doesn't appeal to me surely falls into that realm.



Marsha