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Thread: What the Bible says about Homosexuality...

  1. #161
    Senior Member Rich Schmidt's Avatar

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    Re: What the Bible says about Homosexuality...

    Quote Originally Posted by Hans Deventer View Post
    No kidding!
    I think I agree with Marcus' take on those passages. I don't think Jesus was saying the 2nd marriage was an ongoing act of committing adultery / not a "real" marriage. As someone else stated earlier (sorry, it was too many posts ago, and I'm on my phone), I think Jesus' concern was with people who were divorcing their wives in order to marry someone else, following the letter of the law (making the divorce legal, etc) while ignoring God's intent (love your wife, honor your marriage vows).

    And... if that take on things is correct, then remarriage after divorce doesn't work as a good analogy for gay sexual relationships.

  2. #162
    Senior Member Hans Deventer's Avatar

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    Re: What the Bible says about Homosexuality...

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Schmidt View Post
    I think I agree with Marcus' take on those passages.
    I understand from Alex R.G. Deasley's book, Marriage and Divorce in the Bible and the Church, that the Early Church did not read these passages so as to allow for remarriage, even if there had been adultery. So yes, they did consider a second marriage adultery. However, they did not consider remarriage as the unpardonable sin. (page 207-208)

    BTW, my reaction wasn't to any argument made, but to Paul's statement "You are simply restating your original position."
    “No scripture can mean that God is not love, or that his mercy is not over all his works.” (John Wesley)
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    Re: What the Bible says about Homosexuality...

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul DeBaufer View Post
    Demonstrate to us biblically that the subsequent marriage is sanctified.
    I'm not saying all remarriage is necessarily sanctified. I'm saying that remarriage is biblically considered to be legitimate marriage in the eyes of God. Adulterous to enter into, but still valid marriage.

    1) Deut. 24:1-4 indicates the 2nd marriage was "defiling" (adulterous) in some sense, yet it was a valid marriage.
    2) In John 4:18, when Jesus tells the woman at Samaria, "You have had five husbands, and the one you now have is not your husband", he implies that the other five were in fact legitimate husbands/marriages.

    Your position implies one of two options: 1) remarriage is never seen in Scripture as valid/real; or 2) remarriage is seen in Scripture as valid/real despite it being eternally adulterous, and the only way to free oneself from such adultery is through the sin of breaking another marriage covenant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul DeBaufer View Post
    If we can do this for remarriage why can't we for gay marriage?
    Because the Bible could not be more clear about the sin of homosexual behavior, no matter how monogamous, loving, and sincere the relationship may be. It's very simple.
    Thanks Gina Stevenson - "thanks" for this post

  4. #164
    Senior Member Hans Deventer's Avatar

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    Re: What the Bible says about Homosexuality...

    Quote Originally Posted by Marcus Kibbe View Post
    Because the Bible could not be more clear about the sin of homosexual behavior, no matter how monogamous, loving, and sincere the relationship may be. It's very simple.
    In other words, we're the greatest fools on earth to discuss in 163 posts something that is just "very simple". Dana, you should not even have asked. It's very simple.
    “No scripture can mean that God is not love, or that his mercy is not over all his works.” (John Wesley)
    Thanks Gary Creely, Paul DeBaufer, Gina Stevenson - "thanks" for this post

  5. #165
    Multi-Forum Host Kevin Rector's Avatar

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    Re: What the Bible says about Homosexuality...

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul DeBaufer View Post
    I am sorry I misunderstood, misread what you were saying. More I am sorry I reacted to my misunderstanding. Please accept my apologies.
    No problem, these conversations (especially about topics that we are passionate about) are very difficult to have gracefully via this media. You were not the only one who misunderstood my intent, and so I'm sure a major portion of the responsibility is on my own shoulders.
    Thanks Paul DeBaufer - "thanks" for this post

  6. #166
    Senior Member Dwayne Petry's Avatar

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    Re: What the Bible says about Homosexuality...

    The Holy Spirit ministers to us at our point of need!

    After I accepted Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior of my life at age 32, the Holy Spirit had a lot of "fixing" to do in my life. The scripture about divorce and remarriage helped me to get a proper understanding of God's "gift" of sex. I was divorced and thinking about getting married, (God miraculously led me to remarry my ex-wife) and was studying the scripture for that purpose. This is what I learned.

    God instituted marriage and part of that institution is the "gift" of sex (the two shall become one). Because that "gift" is so special and such a bond between husband and wife, it cannot be broken except by a sex act (adultery) outside the bond of marriage. Jesus said that if a husband and wife get divorced for any reason except adultery, that adultery is committed when the divorced husband or wife takes a "new" wife or husband. That teaching, that the sexual bond is so strong in the eyes of God, that adultery is committed at the time of a second marriage, when adultery is not the cause of the divorce, gave me the understanding I needed to place the "gift" of sex in its proper perspective. That understanding was the beginning of the healing process for the warped sexual lifestyle I had lived as a sinner!

    WE SERVE AN AWESOME GOD! That He cared enough about me to help me "see" the truth I needed to help me make better "choices" with my life. WOW!!
    My Prayer: Father, use me until I am used up, then call me home and may I hear "well done good and faithful servant". Amen.

  7. #167
    Senior Member Bob Hunter's Avatar

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    Re: What the Bible says about Homosexuality...

    Quote Originally Posted by Hans Deventer View Post
    To clarify, I have shared some of this, but the latter part is not true for me. I don't have a problem hanging around with a colleague who is gay and lives with his man, nor with my brother in law who is gay but celibate. I just don't want to think about gay sex.
    I have mentioned my disgust and outrage for male physical activity, because it is disgusting and there is irrefutable medical proof that demonstrates its destructiveness to the body. But I have gone fishing with gay men, I roomed with struggling gay guy in Seminary and I have a gay-step sister who will stay in my home and hugs my kids next month! No homophobia here, I think I can differentiate the behavior from the individual and their self worth. But I absolutely deplore the lifestyle which involves sexual behavior that does not glorify God. The male and female bodies are made for each other. A lot of heterosexual sexual behavior is pretty unhealthy too. But I digress.
    Thanks Paul DeBaufer, Bill Morrison, Jim Chabot, Lucas Finch - "thanks" for this post

  8. #168
    Senior Member Bob Hunter's Avatar

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    Re: What the Bible says about Homosexuality...

    Some of outrage expressed by Todd and others is justified. Especially when you have pastors delivering hateful sermons such as this one:

    http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2012/05/0...to-punch-boys/

    I think everyone in this forum would express outrage toward a sermon such as this one.
    Thanks Gina Stevenson - "thanks" for this post

  9. #169
    Senior Member Eric Frey's Avatar

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    Re: What the Bible says about Homosexuality...

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul DeBaufer View Post
    You are simply restating your original position. A plain reading of the text clearly suggests that the marriage is adulterous. Never does it indicate that the subsequent marriage is in anyway sanctified. Demonstrate to us biblically that the subsequent marriage is sanctified. Now, I have personal reason to want to believe you are right. I think that tradition may teach this, and I hope so. If we can do this for remarriage why can't we for gay marriage? Is it simply that we refuse?
    This is the issue. Let's not get tangled in the divorce/remarriage debate. The point is that at one time divorce/remarriage was understood as sin. It was condemned by the church, Clergy were not permitted to remarry those who were divorced, People divorced/remarried could not be ordained, etc. These were all stances taken by the church based on their biblical interpretation. But as time changed and society changed and the world around us changed and our knowledge of the biblical world and literature changed, so too changed our position on divorce and remarriage though the actual words of scripture did not change.

    If this kind of reevaluation is not only possible, but "good" as indicated by many in the course of the discussion, then why is the same process such an impossibility for another difficult moral dilemma? How can we find a consistent hermeneutic by which to make difficult decisions? What is that hermeneutic?

    Let me be clear, I am not opposing the view of the Manual or of the Pastoral Letter published by the BGS not too long ago. I am not advocating for affirming or inclusivity or whatever label you want to put on it. I am simply seeking to understand the hermeneutics involved in reaching difficult decisions on difficult issues, as the one we seem to be using is a bit inconsistent and therefore problematic for many.

  10. #170
    Senior Member Paul DeBaufer's Avatar

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    Re: What the Bible says about Homosexuality...

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Schmidt View Post
    I think I agree with Marcus' take on those passages. I don't think Jesus was saying the 2nd marriage was an ongoing act of committing adultery / not a "real" marriage. As someone else stated earlier (sorry, it was too many posts ago, and I'm on my phone), I think Jesus' concern was with people who were divorcing their wives in order to marry someone else, following the letter of the law (making the divorce legal, etc) while ignoring God's intent (love your wife, honor your marriage vows).

    And... if that take on things is correct, then remarriage after divorce doesn't work as a good analogy for gay sexual relationships.
    I actually prefer Marcus' interpretation of the passages, but it is still NOT found within the text itself. You refer to David's post and explanation of marriage and the effects of divorce that Jesus was probability addressing. As illustration he referred to back country Islamic divorce where a man gets tired of his wife, accuses her of infidelity, and has her killed. That men in Jesus' time falsely accused wives they no longer wanted and divorced them, which had very negative impacts upon them. Interpretation through cultural context. I am really fine with that, think it necessary. Why then are we so ready to dismiss the cultural contexts in interpreting the biblical passages concerning homosexuality? Just exactly how are the two not analogous?
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  11. #171
    Senior Member Paul DeBaufer's Avatar

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    Re: What the Bible says about Homosexuality...

    Quote Originally Posted by Marcus Kibbe View Post
    I'm not saying all remarriage is necessarily sanctified. I'm saying that remarriage is biblically considered to be legitimate marriage in the eyes of God. Adulterous to enter into, but still valid marriage.

    1) Deut. 24:1-4 indicates the 2nd marriage was "defiling" (adulterous) in some sense, yet it was a valid marriage.
    2) In John 4:18, when Jesus tells the woman at Samaria, "You have had five husbands, and the one you now have is not your husband", he implies that the other five were in fact legitimate husbands/marriages.

    Your position implies one of two options: 1) remarriage is never seen in Scripture as valid/real; or 2) remarriage is seen in Scripture as valid/real despite it being eternally adulterous, and the only way to free oneself from such adultery is through the sin of breaking another marriage covenant.



    Because the Bible could not be more clear about the sin of homosexual behavior, no matter how monogamous, loving, and sincere the relationship may be. It's very simple.
    I am going to push this a little further.

    We can forget the Deuteronomy passage allowing for remarriage because Jesus negates that in the Matthew passage. What Jesus dismisses I'm good with dismissing.

    I really think you go too far saying that Jesus statement of fact concerning the Samaritan woman's marriages as Him saying that they were legitimate. We know nothing of her husbands, they may have all died. Couple that lack of information with the fact that she was Samaritan and NOT under the same law that the Jews were under, I think you make suppositions in your interpretation of John 4 that just aren't supported or supportable.

    This still leaves us with the fact that taking a plain, clear reading of Jesus words the subsequent marriage is adulterous.

    As I have said in other posts, I do prefer your interpretation. But to reach it you must use something other than Scripture. So I still see this as analogous to the issue of homosexuality. I'm not even asking you to accept that, just consider it. I doubt we will ever agree.
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  12. #172
    Senior Member Paul DeBaufer's Avatar

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    Re: What the Bible says about Homosexuality...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Rector View Post
    No problem, these conversations (especially about topics that we are passionate about) are very difficult to have gracefully via this media. You were not the only one who misunderstood my intent, and so I'm sure a major portion of the responsibility is on my own shoulders.
    Yeah, I tend to get very passionate when talking about groups of people who experience ostracism, marginalization, disenfranchisement and hate. I will stand with them.

    I have a friend, a lesbian legally married to her wife. She was raised evangelical, fundamentalist. She knew early on that she was gay. She hated it. Went through correction therapy. Did the pray the gay away garbage. All that did was to instill a self loathing and feelings of despondency that salvation was forever denied her. Refusing to give up on Jesus, she found ways to reconcile and moved away from the archaic, and wrong (IMHO) teachings of her youth. She was very involved in bringing Christ into the LGBT community. She was one of the Outlaw Preachers. But, even within that community she took a beating from those of us, by us I mean Christians, who reject her. With LGBT when you hate the sin you ARE in a very real sense hating the sinner as well. She left the church. We, Christians (no not all of us, for those all or nothing types), drove one of the most Christlike people I have ever known from the church. I feel her pain. I feel the pain of all those classes of people that the church rejects.

    So, the miscommunication, well I was ripe for seeing it and reacting to it, reacting not responding.
    You can be right or you can be in relationship

  13. #173
    Senior Member Paul DeBaufer's Avatar

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    Re: What the Bible says about Homosexuality...

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Frey View Post
    This is the issue. Let's not get tangled in the divorce/remarriage debate. The point is that at one time divorce/remarriage was understood as sin. It was condemned by the church, Clergy were not permitted to remarry those who were divorced, People divorced/remarried could not be ordained, etc. These were all stances taken by the church based on their biblical interpretation. But as time changed and society changed and the world around us changed and our knowledge of the biblical world and literature changed, so too changed our position on divorce and remarriage though the actual words of scripture did not change.

    If this kind of reevaluation is not only possible, but "good" as indicated by many in the course of the discussion, then why is the same process such an impossibility for another difficult moral dilemma? How can we find a consistent hermeneutic by which to make difficult decisions? What is that hermeneutic?

    Let me be clear, I am not opposing the view of the Manual or of the Pastoral Letter published by the BGS not too long ago. I am not advocating for affirming or inclusivity or whatever label you want to put on it. I am simply seeking to understand the hermeneutics involved in reaching difficult decisions on difficult issues, as the one we seem to be using is a bit inconsistent and therefore problematic for many.
    Thank you thank you thank you
    You can be right or you can be in relationship

  14. #174
    Senior Member Benjamin Burch's Avatar

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    Re: What the Bible says about Homosexuality...

    Quote Originally Posted by Marcus Kibbe View Post
    Because the Bible could not be more clear about the sin of homosexual behavior, no matter how monogamous, loving, and sincere the relationship may be. It's very simple.
    This is actually not a true statement in the least bit. It never addresses monogamous, loving, sincere relationships. Now, we may argue as to whether or not those relationships were known, and they may have been. However, no passage addresses such a thing. It may "cover" it, but that requires us to make decisions about how far the statements reach. This is not necessarily clear on its face, certainly it could in fact be "more clear."

    I'm of the opinion that Scriptures condemn homosexual relations everywhere that it addresses the issue explicitly and that these condemnations would have extended even to what we know today as monogamous, loving, homosexual relationships. I, however, think the Bible is wrong. Pretty simple. I'm comfortable with Christians holding either view.

    What I'm not comfortable with is blatantly false statements that say the Bible couldn't be more clear on the issue.

    Also, we need to learn to hear the voices in the text that speak subversively, that offer themselves as implicit voices to be heard against the explicit voices.
    - Ben

    Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death! And to those in the tombs, bestowing life!
    Χριστὸς ἀνέστη ἐκ νεκρῶν, θανάτῳ θάνατον πατήσας! καὶ τοῖς ἐν τοῖς μνήμασι, ζωὴν χαρισάμενος!

  15. #175
    Senior Member Benjamin Burch's Avatar

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    Re: What the Bible says about Homosexuality...

    For those who are interested in really getting to a way of dealing with this which takes the Bible seriously, I highly suggest reading the following:

    Making Wise the Simple: The Torah in Christian Faith and Practice - Johanna W.H. van Wijk-Bos

    This text deals with marriage and sex issues in the Torah within their proper historical context which produced the practices found in Scripture, and helps level out the idea that the Bible has some sanctified and designed version of marriage which is anywhere close to what we act like it is today.

    Poor Banished Daughters of Eve: Woman as Evil in the Hebrew Bible - Gale A. Yee

    This text will take you deep into the thought world of the Biblical authors and how gender functioned and was treated/viewed within a patriarchal culture where the "feminine" threatens the status quo, and it shows ways in which the Biblical authors succumb to such patriarchal, misogynist language and imagery to portray God, especially within the context of "marriage."

    Daughter Zion Talks Back to the Prophets: A Dialogic Theology of the Book of Lamentations - Carleen Mandalfo

    This text takes a critical look at the portrayal of marriage given by the "marriage metaphor" in the prophets and how YHWH is depicted as acting as the husband within this ongoing metaphor. It uses the voice of God, the husband, spoken by the prophets, as one voice in a conversation. It then takes Lamentations, as Lamentations offers itself as the voice of Israel after it has received its punishment, and puts this into conversation with God, as the wife.

    It is an incredible critique of the "Biblical portrayal of marriage" which takes the Scripture seriously and challenges us to listen for mor than the voices which speak directly to us.

    Over the course of the next year and a half, alongside my thesis, I will attempt to produce a paper which deals with each of these texts, works with them and their theses, and exegetes Paul's marriage metaphor in Ephesians 5 through the lens of these theses, utilizing insights gained from transgender and gender ambiguity studies to produce what I believe to be an alternate understanding of the Bible's stance on marriage.
    - Ben

    Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death! And to those in the tombs, bestowing life!
    Χριστὸς ἀνέστη ἐκ νεκρῶν, θανάτῳ θάνατον πατήσας! καὶ τοῖς ἐν τοῖς μνήμασι, ζωὴν χαρισάμενος!
    Thanks Hans Deventer, Todd Erickson, Paul DeBaufer - "thanks" for this post

  16. #176
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    Re: What the Bible says about Homosexuality...

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul DeBaufer View Post
    Yeah, I tend to get very passionate when talking about groups of people who experience ostracism, marginalization, disenfranchisement and hate. I will stand with them.

    I have a friend, a lesbian legally married to her wife. She was raised evangelical, fundamentalist. She knew early on that she was gay. She hated it. Went through correction therapy. Did the pray the gay away garbage. All that did was to instill a self loathing and feelings of despondency that salvation was forever denied her. Refusing to give up on Jesus, she found ways to reconcile and moved away from the archaic, and wrong (IMHO) teachings of her youth. She was very involved in bringing Christ into the LGBT community. She was one of the Outlaw Preachers. But, even within that community she took a beating from those of us, by us I mean Christians, who reject her. With LGBT when you hate the sin you ARE in a very real sense hating the sinner as well. She left the church. We, Christians (no not all of us, for those all or nothing types), drove one of the most Christlike people I have ever known from the church. I feel her pain. I feel the pain of all those classes of people that the church rejects.

    So, the miscommunication, well I was ripe for seeing it and reacting to it, reacting not responding.
    How can you say it is garbage when it has worked for other homosexuals? What do we do with those who have sought God's help in this and found it, and are now straight? Do we just say they weren't gay to begin with? Or do we say that the Holy Spirit worked in their lives and they are a new creature?
    Thanks Jim Chabot - "thanks" for this post

  17. #177
    Senior Member Andy Mistak's Avatar

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    Re: What the Bible says about Homosexuality...

    Quote Originally Posted by Lorie Hatcliff View Post
    How can you say it is garbage when it has worked for other homosexuals? What do we do with those who have sought God's help in this and found it, and are now straight? Do we just say they weren't gay to begin with? Or do we say that the Holy Spirit worked in their lives and they are a new creature?
    Because it hasn't actually worked over the long term. People who are gay are gay. You can't take a gay man and make him sexually attracted to women any more than you can make me sexually attracted to men. What you can do is instill shame and fear of himself so deeply into a gay man that he starts to hate himself and act out your expectations instead of his own will, but that is no solution.

  18. #178
    Senior Member Jim Chabot's Avatar

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    Re: What the Bible says about Homosexuality...

    Quote Originally Posted by Lorie Hatcliff View Post
    How can you say it is garbage when it has worked for other homosexuals? What do we do with those who have sought God's help in this and found it, and are now straight? Do we just say they weren't gay to begin with? Or do we say that the Holy Spirit worked in their lives and they are a new creature?
    Amen Lorie! And as holiness people, this is exactly what we believe. We believe that the Spirit is able to give the power to overcome sin. We affirm that we can truly become new creatures. While we recognize that those of other faith traditions who are without a doctrine of holiness may believe otherwise, this doctrine whereby sin may be overcome by the power of the Spirit is at the very core of our denomination and tradition.
    -Jim

    To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.

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    Thanks Lorie Hatcliff, Dwayne Petry - "thanks" for this post

  19. #179
    Senior Member Jim Chabot's Avatar

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    Re: What the Bible says about Homosexuality...

    Hi Dana, Hopefully I can contribute something helpful to your searching through this subject.

    Early on in the video, Matthew says something that I believe to be untrue, he says “if someone is gay, then their sexual orientation is a sign of the fall.: I don’t accept that anyone “is” gay, perhaps they have a predilection toward homosexual attraction and behavior, but that does not make them “gay”, for in many ways they are no different from the rest of us in that they suffer temptation, that is common to man. If some folks truly “are gay” then I am a thief and a cheater. For that is who I was before Jesus changed my life, those were my predispositions, among others.

    He goes on to say that gay people “are viewed as lustful, sexual beings” and I believe he is correct here. However characterizations in the same vein are employed as descriptors to murderers, extortions, cheats, adulterers, drunks, whores and so many others. This is the manner to which most people who are enslaved in a particular sin tend to be viewed. Although there is a negative connotation given by these descriptors, one must remember that sin itself is negative, thus those enslaved by it become viewed in this light. This is also the way these folks are described in scripture. Remembering of course that these folks are all afflicted with that which is common to man, and which may be overcome through the power of His Spirit at work in our lives. For at one time we were all at enmity with God in our minds by our wicked works but now are reconciled to Him.

    “Same sex relationships are inherently sinful, no matter the quality and no matter the context.” He appears to be offering this as example of unfairness should it be true. Yet he is muddying the waters here just a bit for it is the sexual nature of the relationship[ where sin would exist should the traditional interpretation be true. Surely there is nothing sinful in a caring loving lifetime relationship between two people of the same sex, it is called friendship. He is asking us if we will go one mile with him and step into his shoes for a spell. Ok, I will try to do this.

    I must admit early on that I’m finding his shoes to be a bad fit, or possibly on the wrong feet. This young man appears to be desperately clinging to his sin, Imy take is that he doesn’t imagine an escape, he feels that this is actually a part of him rather than a harmful parasite. A childhood and lifelong friend of mine died at the age of 42 from cirrhosis of the liver. He desperately clung to his sin as well. I have a vivid memory of the day when he told me that he had been throwing up blood every morning for a couple of weeks and feared that he would have to quit drinking. Through tears he told me with absolute certainty that no one would like him if he didn’t drink, he was sure, so sure that he continued drinking for the next few months until his death with a few of us around him. While I am interested to hear where his research into scripture leads him. I fear that he is setting this up rather badly. He is precluding the possibility that the Spirit of God could deliver him if in fact his predilection is sinful. God has no power in his mind, this is so sad, even though I have seen this before, it’s tragic.

    Good teachings according to Jesus have good consequences, they don’t lead to destruction of human dignity, or emotional and spiritual devastation and to the loss of self esteem and self worth. But, he says , those have been the consequences of the traditional teaching for homosexuals. I’m not going to come out and say that he is deliberate in this, but this is a sleight of hand trick. Yes these can be the consequences of embraced sin. Good teaching brings good consequences when followed, the opposite should be allowed when the good teaching is not followed.

    He is saying now that God is wrong. God says that the suitable partner for a man is a woman. Matthew is saying that this is not true for gay men. He disagrees with what God has said citing his own experience and the experience of others. He is saying that a suitable partner for a gay man is another gay man, for a gay woman, it would be another gay woman. He is against what God is saying here, can he show that God has said otherwise? Okay he is now saying that those with a same sex predilection must live alone, he says that the first thing that God has declared to be not good, is said to be good. Yet this is an argument based upon a falsehood, because God’s solution to the problem of aloneness is based upon His definition of a suitable helper. Matthews anecdotal evidence not withstanding. He begins to show anger toward the end of this thought concluding that something is off. I believe that he is correct, something is off, he is held captive by sin, surely the results will be hurtful and destructive. I’m only about 16 minutes in, but so far he appears to be arguing against scripture rather that arguing from it.

    He is talking about discussing the six verses which speak to this now.

    To be continued, hopefully.
    -Jim

    To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.

    Garrison Keillor
    Thanks Marcus Kibbe, Lorie Hatcliff - "thanks" for this post

  20. #180
    Senior Member Hans Deventer's Avatar

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    Re: What the Bible says about Homosexuality...

    Quote Originally Posted by Lorie Hatcliff View Post
    How can you say it is garbage when it has worked for other homosexuals? What do we do with those who have sought God's help in this and found it, and are now straight? Do we just say they weren't gay to begin with? Or do we say that the Holy Spirit worked in their lives and they are a new creature?
    God can heal anything. However, He rarely does, as we all know. Some have been given the gift of celibacy. However, by far most singles, gay or straight, have not been given that gift.

    So we are talking about a situation when folks, despite their endless and fervent prayers, have neither been healed nor been given the gift of celibacy. What then?
    “No scripture can mean that God is not love, or that his mercy is not over all his works.” (John Wesley)
    Thanks Todd Erickson, Gina Stevenson, Heidi Anderson - "thanks" for this post

  21. #181
    Senior Member Paul DeBaufer's Avatar

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    Re: What the Bible says about Homosexuality...

    Quote Originally Posted by Lorie Hatcliff View Post
    How can you say it is garbage when it has worked for other homosexuals? What do we do with those who have sought God's help in this and found it, and are now straight? Do we just say they weren't gay to begin with? Or do we say that the Holy Spirit worked in their lives and they are a new creature?
    It was really pretty easy. I have seen the damage that that skybalon has wreaked in the lives of those forced to go through it and even in those who have done so voluntarily. When we instill fear and self-loathing we are NOT acting in a loving manner. Andy is right, these things do NOT work. You may be able to cite a case you read about, but for everyone of those read abouts I could stand before you a dozen very real people who have experienced it. I am far more concerned with the suffering of people than I am with doctrine. I'll give up all doctrine to ease suffering. If I must I will reject heaven itself to stand with the groups that are cast away like so much refuse. For me LOVE trumps all. What is the most loving thing in the here and now. Not some rationalized "love" that lets people suffer agonizing lives all for some dream of some future. No, ma'am, I cannot. A friend, the local Catholic priest, Father Mike, said something to me recently, "If it gets in the way of love, it can't be true." I wholeheartedly agree with him. I think Jesus would too.
    You can be right or you can be in relationship

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    Senior Member Paul DeBaufer's Avatar

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    Re: What the Bible says about Homosexuality...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Chabot View Post
    Hi Dana, Hopefully I can contribute something helpful to your searching through this subject.

    Early on in the video, Matthew says something that I believe to be untrue, he says “if someone is gay, then their sexual orientation is a sign of the fall.: I don’t accept that anyone “is” gay, perhaps they have a predilection toward homosexual attraction and behavior, but that does not make them “gay”, for in many ways they are no different from the rest of us in that they suffer temptation, that is common to man. If some folks truly “are gay” then I am a thief and a cheater. For that is who I was before Jesus changed my life, those were my predispositions, among others.

    He goes on to say that gay people “are viewed as lustful, sexual beings” and I believe he is correct here. However characterizations in the same vein are employed as descriptors to murderers, extortions, cheats, adulterers, drunks, whores and so many others. This is the manner to which most people who are enslaved in a particular sin tend to be viewed. Although there is a negative connotation given by these descriptors, one must remember that sin itself is negative, thus those enslaved by it become viewed in this light. This is also the way these folks are described in scripture. Remembering of course that these folks are all afflicted with that which is common to man, and which may be overcome through the power of His Spirit at work in our lives. For at one time we were all at enmity with God in our minds by our wicked works but now are reconciled to Him.

    “Same sex relationships are inherently sinful, no matter the quality and no matter the context.” He appears to be offering this as example of unfairness should it be true. Yet he is muddying the waters here just a bit for it is the sexual nature of the relationship[ where sin would exist should the traditional interpretation be true. Surely there is nothing sinful in a caring loving lifetime relationship between two people of the same sex, it is called friendship. He is asking us if we will go one mile with him and step into his shoes for a spell. Ok, I will try to do this.

    I must admit early on that I’m finding his shoes to be a bad fit, or possibly on the wrong feet. This young man appears to be desperately clinging to his sin, Imy take is that he doesn’t imagine an escape, he feels that this is actually a part of him rather than a harmful parasite. A childhood and lifelong friend of mine died at the age of 42 from cirrhosis of the liver. He desperately clung to his sin as well. I have a vivid memory of the day when he told me that he had been throwing up blood every morning for a couple of weeks and feared that he would have to quit drinking. Through tears he told me with absolute certainty that no one would like him if he didn’t drink, he was sure, so sure that he continued drinking for the next few months until his death with a few of us around him. While I am interested to hear where his research into scripture leads him. I fear that he is setting this up rather badly. He is precluding the possibility that the Spirit of God could deliver him if in fact his predilection is sinful. God has no power in his mind, this is so sad, even though I have seen this before, it’s tragic.

    Good teachings according to Jesus have good consequences, they don’t lead to destruction of human dignity, or emotional and spiritual devastation and to the loss of self esteem and self worth. But, he says , those have been the consequences of the traditional teaching for homosexuals. I’m not going to come out and say that he is deliberate in this, but this is a sleight of hand trick. Yes these can be the consequences of embraced sin. Good teaching brings good consequences when followed, the opposite should be allowed when the good teaching is not followed.

    He is saying now that God is wrong. God says that the suitable partner for a man is a woman. Matthew is saying that this is not true for gay men. He disagrees with what God has said citing his own experience and the experience of others. He is saying that a suitable partner for a gay man is another gay man, for a gay woman, it would be another gay woman. He is against what God is saying here, can he show that God has said otherwise? Okay he is now saying that those with a same sex predilection must live alone, he says that the first thing that God has declared to be not good, is said to be good. Yet this is an argument based upon a falsehood, because God’s solution to the problem of aloneness is based upon His definition of a suitable helper. Matthews anecdotal evidence not withstanding. He begins to show anger toward the end of this thought concluding that something is off. I believe that he is correct, something is off, he is held captive by sin, surely the results will be hurtful and destructive. I’m only about 16 minutes in, but so far he appears to be arguing against scripture rather that arguing from it.

    He is talking about discussing the six verses which speak to this now.

    To be continued, hopefully.
    For a straight person to deny that anyone "is" gay is the height of the arrogance of privilege and becomes meaningless opinion. I will listen to the people with the actual experience, they know far better than you or I. I accept what many have revealed to me about their orientation, their struggles. I can't think of one who when faced with their gayness readily accepted it immediately. All did not want to be gay, yet are. I know a young man raised in the church who struggled all his life. Finally when a teenager he came to realize he was gay and there was nothing he could do about it. He came out and when he did he lost all of his friends from childrens, Jr. High, and youth group, the kids he grew up with. This was and still is very painful. His very best friend for years turned his back on him. Yet, this young man, against his wishes is gay. His testimony carries weight, your opinion, my opinion as straight men do not.
    You can be right or you can be in relationship

  23. #183
    Senior Member Doug Ward's Avatar

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    Re: What the Bible says about Homosexuality...

    Todd, while I think that response is all too common, I do not think this is the tenor here. I think we need to keep our eye on the ball here. I do not think there is resistance to welcoming the homosexual, or to accept them with love and kindness. The issue seems to be - what is our expectation of them within the church? Do we expect celibacy? Do we expect struggle and occasional lapses, but to publicly affirm the historical stand of the church? Do we see nothing wrong with open affirmation of homosexual practice and sexual activity? This is the question and we are talking around it.
    On second thought, let's not go to Camelot. It is a silly place.

  24. #184
    Senior Member Doug Ward's Avatar

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    Re: What the Bible says about Homosexuality...

    Hans, I think this is a perceptive comment. I think your initial reasoning is good, but I think there is a deeper one as well. Many have noticed that sexuality is more hard-wired in men than it is with women. If two women experiment in college, culture collectively shrugs. If a man experiments sexually, well - they are gay. Like you, I am repulsed by sexual behavior between men, so that attitude plays a role I am sure.

    Let me stretch this a little further. I also think there is a fundamental difference that lurks here somewhere. The sex act between men is fundamentally an invasive act. At a physical level it describes something that lesbian sexual behavior does not. At some level I think we react to that.
    On second thought, let's not go to Camelot. It is a silly place.
    Thanks Paul DeBaufer, Jim Chabot - "thanks" for this post

  25. #185
    Senior Member Paul DeBaufer's Avatar

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    Re: What the Bible says about Homosexuality...

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Ward View Post
    So your argument is that we are nothing more than biological impulses, switches turning on and off. Everything is programmed, and there is nothing to alter our path?
    This could only be reached by taking my comment out of the context of our exchange. That exchange started with your citing monozygotic twin studies where one is gay and the other is straight. I countered with a confound to solid conclusion drawn from such studies. You then thought when I mentioned in utero environmental factors I meant nurture and I didn't I meant biological/chemical environment. Things like transcription factors, signaling molecules and agents, pH even can cause differences in activation of genes and proteins and therefore affect the timing of development. Just as twins as separate individuals post-natal, they are so pre-natal.

    Of course I do not deny that nurture plays a role in who we are, who we become, to do so would be utter non-sense. I thought the nature-nurture debate had been resolved many years ago in favour of Both/And over either/or
    You can be right or you can be in relationship
    Thanks Todd Erickson - "thanks" for this post

  26. #186
    Senior Member Scott Sherwood's Avatar

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    Re: What the Bible says about Homosexuality...

    Quote Originally Posted by Hans Deventer View Post
    God can heal anything. However, He rarely does, as we all know. Some have been given the gift of celibacy. However, by far most singles, gay or straight, have not been given that gift.

    So we are talking about a situation when folks, despite their endless and fervent prayers, have neither been healed nor been given the gift of celibacy. What then?
    Self-denial.

    I know. Easy for me to say.

    I haven't been given the "gift" of monogamy, but I practice it without exception. I have not been given the gift of organization, but I practice it with some exceptions. I have not been given the gift of listening, but I practice it sometimes even before speaking. I have not been given the gift of evangelism, but I am always ready to give a reason for the hope that I have.

    How many heterosexual marriage are sexless due to mental or physical illness, injury, or other life-interrupting circumstances? Or how about those who along the way just lose attraction to each other? How do we provide these unfulfilled partners a way out? What of those, and there are more all the time, who claim other orientations such as toward three-way marriage, polygamy, intimacy with inanimate objects, or inter-species?

    Not every desire has to be or can be fulfilled. Not every need has to be or can be met. Christianity is not nor has it ever been a path to optimal self-fulfillment; it is a path to eternal life and a narrow self-denying one at that. Not narrow-minded mind you, but one that few will choose according to our Lord. For some it will involve things even more difficult than sexual frustration.

    Perhaps we should quit trying so hard to broaden it. There is already a broad road, but I don't like where it leads. I'm not interested in a gospel that doesn't call people into the narrow way but instead just helps them feel better about the path they are already on.

    You say you know people who have tried this and failed. So do I. I know other people who are trying it and succeeding. I know some who are in apparently fulfilling heterosexual marriages and others who have stayed single. Would you say they are living a lie? I think they are fighting the good fight.

  27. #187
    Senior Member Benjamin Burch's Avatar

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    Re: What the Bible says about Homosexuality...

    Quote Originally Posted by Lorie Hatcliff View Post
    How can you say it is garbage when it has worked for other homosexuals? What do we do with those who have sought God's help in this and found it, and are now straight? Do we just say they weren't gay to begin with? Or do we say that the Holy Spirit worked in their lives and they are a new creature?
    I think we need to deal seriously with the scientific community dealing with genetics, biology, and physiology and psychology before we discuss with any conviction the idea of God "fixing" homosexuals. I say that on both sides, caution seems important.

    What we know:

    (1) Those who are homosexual are rarely ever redeemed from homosexuality. This seems to be the extremely rare exception.
    (2) We do have the testimony of some folks that God has redeemed them from homosexual practice and brought them into rightful heterosexual practice.

    Both sides need to be honest here, and agendas on both sides get in the way. From what I know it seems that there is a level of scientific evidence which suggests that there are folks who are genetically oriented towards a sexual attraction to the same sex, and not the opposite sex.

    One side denies this evidence.
    The other side claims this is true for all, and if they are not, they're not "really" gay, despite what they do/practice.

    Both sides need to stop this, especially the LGBT side. It seems clear that there are those who practice homosexuality both out of (a) genetic orientation, as well as those who do so out of (b) a psychological state/development due to environmentally conditioned factors. I see no evidence that suggests that only one of these is true, and both sides - imo - need to stop acting as if they are exclusively correct.

    From here, we should get serious about seeing if those who claim redemption are members of group (a) or (b), and evaluate whether it can be stated with any credibility that members of group (a) at at any point actually redeemed from homosexuality.

    If we're not willing to do this, we make a lot of very reckless and dangerous claims without much proof to back them up other than the relative credibility of the testimony itself.
    - Ben

    Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death! And to those in the tombs, bestowing life!
    Χριστὸς ἀνέστη ἐκ νεκρῶν, θανάτῳ θάνατον πατήσας! καὶ τοῖς ἐν τοῖς μνήμασι, ζωὴν χαρισάμενος!

  28. #188
    Senior Member Benjamin Burch's Avatar

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    Re: What the Bible says about Homosexuality...

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Sherwood View Post
    Self-denial.

    I know. Easy for me to say.

    I haven't been given the "gift" of monogamy, but I practice it without exception. I have not been given the gift of organization, but I practice it with some exceptions. I have not been given the gift of listening, but I practice it sometimes even before speaking. I have not been given the gift of evangelism, but I am always ready to give a reason for the hope that I have.

    How many heterosexual marriage are sexless due to mental or physical illness, injury, or other life-interrupting circumstances? Or how about those who along the way just lose attraction to each other? How do we provide these unfulfilled partners a way out? What of those, and there are more all the time, who claim other orientations such as toward three-way marriage, polygamy, intimacy with inanimate objects, or inter-species?

    Not every desire has to be or can be fulfilled. Not every need has to be or can be met. Christianity is not nor has it ever been a path to optimal self-fulfillment; it is a path to eternal life and a narrow self-denying one at that. Not narrow-minded mind you, but one that few will choose according to our Lord. For some it will involve things even more difficult than sexual frustration.

    Perhaps we should quit trying so hard to broaden it. There is already a broad road, but I don't like where it leads. I'm not interested in a gospel that doesn't call people into the narrow way but instead just helps them feel better about the path they are already on.

    You say you know people who have tried this and failed. So do I. I know other people who are trying it and succeeding. I know some who are in apparently fulfilling heterosexual marriages and others who have stayed single. Would you say they are living a lie? I think they are fighting the good fight.
    See my post #187. I think it answers your final question well. We assume far too much about these testimonies, and these assumptions themselves assume a predisposition towards how we believe homosexuality originates.
    - Ben

    Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death! And to those in the tombs, bestowing life!
    Χριστὸς ἀνέστη ἐκ νεκρῶν, θανάτῳ θάνατον πατήσας! καὶ τοῖς ἐν τοῖς μνήμασι, ζωὴν χαρισάμενος!

  29. #189
    Senior Member Doug Ward's Avatar

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    Re: What the Bible says about Homosexuality...

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul DeBaufer View Post

    Of course I do not deny that nurture plays a role in who we are, who we become, to do so would be utter non-sense. I thought the nature-nurture debate had been resolved many years ago in favour of Both/And over either/or
    I thought the debate had been resolved as well. So when I mention studies that seemed to demonstrate this point, and you vehemently disagreed with the conclusion, well, imagine my confusion. So you agree that nurture plays a role? Okay. Welcome.
    On second thought, let's not go to Camelot. It is a silly place.
    Thanks Paul DeBaufer - "thanks" for this post

  30. #190
    Senior Member Jim Chabot's Avatar

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    Re: What the Bible says about Homosexuality...

    Quote Originally Posted by Benjamin Burch View Post
    I think we need to deal seriously with the scientific community dealing with genetics, biology, and physiology and psychology before we discuss with any conviction the idea of God "fixing" homosexuals. I say that on both sides, caution seems important.

    What we know:

    (1) Those who are homosexual are rarely ever redeemed from homosexuality. This seems to be the extremely rare exception.
    (2) We do have the testimony of some folks that God has redeemed them from homosexual practice and brought them into rightful heterosexual practice.

    Both sides need to be honest here, and agendas on both sides get in the way. From what I know it seems that there is a level of scientific evidence which suggests that there are folks who are genetically oriented towards a sexual attraction to the same sex, and not the opposite sex.

    One side denies this evidence.
    The other side claims this is true for all, and if they are not, they're not "really" gay, despite what they do/practice.

    Both sides need to stop this, especially the LGBT side. It seems clear that there are those who practice homosexuality both out of (a) genetic orientation, as well as those who do so out of (b) a psychological state/development due to environmentally conditioned factors. I see no evidence that suggests that only one of these is true, and both sides - imo - need to stop acting as if they are exclusively correct.

    From here, we should get serious about seeing if those who claim redemption are members of group (a) or (b), and evaluate whether it can be stated with any credibility that members of group (a) at at any point actually redeemed from homosexuality.

    If we're not willing to do this, we make a lot of very reckless and dangerous claims without much proof to back them up other than the relative credibility of the testimony itself.
    Good post Ben. Just like to add something to your point one. I agree with your point, very few have been delivered we need to realize this. It must also be said that very few are delivered from other serious sin issues such as pedophilia, pandering, thievery, murder etc... I've left alcoholics off of the list because they seem to have developed a fairly successful strategy whereby they can abstain while realizing that they need continual support. Not sure of how "gay anonymous" would be structured, but I believe that it could work.
    -Jim

    To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.

    Garrison Keillor

  31. #191
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    Re: What the Bible says about Homosexuality...

    Quote Originally Posted by Hans Deventer View Post
    God can heal anything. However, He rarely does, as we all know. Some have been given the gift of celibacy. However, by far most singles, gay or straight, have not been given that gift.

    So we are talking about a situation when folks, despite their endless and fervent prayers, have neither been healed nor been given the gift of celibacy. What then?
    What then? They abstain from sexual activity. Except for rape, sexual activity has always been a choice. (I'm not sure rape is considered sexual activity, but that's another subject)

    If God chooses not to heal a person, I believe He will always be there to help us through any temptation that we are faced with. Whether that be something as benign as "trying to give up chocolate" or something more serious like alcoholism. He never leaves us alone to face these obstacles. If we call to Him, He will answer us.
    Thanks Jim Chabot - "thanks" for this post

  32. #192
    Senior Member Jim Chabot's Avatar

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    Re: What the Bible says about Homosexuality...

    Ok back at it, although I’m finding myself becoming a little hostile towards young Matthew here, nothing to do with his orientation. I’m starting to distrust him as he continues.

    He is describing Sodom and Gomorrah in terms that deny that homosexuality is at the core of their destruction. It is violent sexual behavior that is contemplated and not homosexuality he says. Yet it is clear that this is what the men were after especially in light that they were not interested in sex with women when offered. True enough that the passage in Ezekiel lists Sodom’s sin as that of indulgence, although debauchery is a close cousin. When he gets to Jude, I believe that he is a bit delusional to think that a distinction should be drawn between lustful and loving homosexual acts.. Jude is clear, that the issue is at least in part perversion of which homosexuality is rightly defined. He is claiming wide support among scholars that Sodom and Gomorrah do not present evidence against sexual sin.

    He is now moving on to Leviticus and the “abomination” promising careful study. I’ll admit to being leery but here goes. He reads the Leviticus passages then he says with what appears to be an arrogant sneer, “there we have it” to which I must agree. The clarity in these verses is stunning, even while he leaves off the companion verses which clearly prohibit anal sex regardless of gender. But no matter for he is claiming that these verses are not applicable to Christians and that we must look to Paul for clarity within the Christian context. Color me jaded but it appears that he is going for the “arsenokoitai” defense. He quotes every verse that he can find to do away with the law, and goes so far as to say the Christianity specifically rejects Leviticus. While I can agree with him in regards to the ceremonial aspect, the definition of sin remains intact, God did not mis speak nor has he changed His mind. But this young fellow with the flourish of a trial attorney dismisses Leviticus as fruit of a poisonous tree. The baby will be gone with the bathwater here. He is making the argument that the sinful practices of adultery, incest and bestiality should be rightly separated from male on male sex. Because he says they are separated by a reference to sex during the menstrual cycle which is no longer sinful. What! Please don’t anyone provide too much information here, of course it is still sinful! He does make a point that the word abomination is used rather freely, but he reaches too far when he uses examples where the abomination would be on the part of the Egyptians, he is trying too hard. Then he employs the cultural context trick, often used by scoundrels. He even goes for the stoning of disobedient children dodge, not sure if I’m going to be able to finish this. “Simply because something deserved the death penalty in the Old Testament doesn’t mean that Christians should view it as sinful.” Pretty cocky attitude, I might freely speak my mind, but I don’t have the courage to make a statement like this, considering especially that souls are in the balance. He says that the default Christian position for millennia has been to ignore Leviticus. Yet he provides no explanations for the sodomy laws put into place by Christian lawmankers. He closes by saying that the three OT passages do not provide compelling testimony against loving same sex relationship. I believe that he is seriously mistaken here.

    I’m at the halfway point, I’ll try to continue, but no promises.
    -Jim

    To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.

    Garrison Keillor

  33. #193
    Senior Member Dwayne Petry's Avatar

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    Re: What the Bible says about Homosexuality...

    Quote Originally Posted by Hans Deventer View Post
    God can heal anything. However, He rarely does, as we all know.
    Not popular but here goes!

    God does not heal sin, He forgives and brakes the bondage of sin. Makes us into a new creation. We need not remain bound by our sin! If He can deliver me from my sexual addictions, He can deliver the homosexual from their sexual addictions!

    Is your message, "Jesus did not die for the homosexual"! If so , could you please give your scriptural reference.

    The way some of you limit God is very disheartening to this believer who was delivered from a sin just as bad in God's eyes as homosexual sin! If I were a sinner and you were witnessing to me about your powerless god, there would be no attraction or hope for me.

    It's no wonder why the Church has lost its attraction. Some think God is not able to deliver certain sinners from their sin. I think you guys are discriminating against the homosexual. I'm sure glad my salvation did not depend on your wittiness, because my sin was just as sinful as the homosexual.

    Come to think about it, the world treats the "womanizer" in a better perception than the homosexual. You guys will tell the "womanizer" he can be delivered from his bondage to sin, but the homosexual cannot. You, like the world discriminate against the homosexual by telling him the "Good News" does not "work" for him. You then have the audacity to call it garbage when it does not work for the homosexual. How can it work, he has no more faith than you do.

    OK, load and let me have it with both barrels. I know you are angry. So am I, because I KNOW GOD can deliver the homosexual, the "womanizer", etc.

    This topic has been depressing for me. I had no idea there were those in the Church and especially the Church of the Nazarene who limited the power of GOD!

    GOD HAVE MERCY ON US!!!
    My Prayer: Father, use me until I am used up, then call me home and may I hear "well done good and faithful servant". Amen.
    Thanks Jim Chabot - "thanks" for this post

  34. #194
    Senior Member Jim Chabot's Avatar

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    Re: What the Bible says about Homosexuality...

    He is moving on to Romans. He claims that he will spend more time on this than on any other. He will need to, and I’m thinking that I’m done. This unfortunate lad is working real hard at leading folks astray, perhaps he feels a need to do so for personal reasons. No matter, he is literally playing with fire. I’m both ticked off at wasting my time listening to him and profoundly saddened by the thought of his fate.

    “Gay people have a natural and permanent orientation toward those of the same sex”

    Over and over and over again, this young man calls God a liar and a cheat! I’m sorry Dana, I can’t finish this, I’m getting too distracted by his incredibly unchristian attitude and speech.

    As holiness people we believe in the transforming power of God. We believe that it is His design and desire to change people into new creations. This young man specifically and repeatedly denies that God has the power to transform.

    God has created him this way he says, this same sex attraction is who he is, he is unable to even see his own worth as a person outside of his homosexuality. I’m incredibly sad for him, he is of course the victim of a strong delusion.

    God is unable to change him is his constant implication. He must either engage in homosexual relations or live life alone. He limits himself to these two options and then requires God to affirm the essence of his being. He twists and warps God’s message to do this.

    Dana, I have been mindful of your friends as I listened to this. I believe you when you say that they are good friends and good people. I pray that you will find a loving and kind way to warn them of a future without communion with the one who made them. I have been to too many funerals of people that I have been close to, people who were loving and kind and yet would not recognize God as Lord of their lives. I’ve prayed through tears for mercy on their souls. Praying for you and your friends.

    I may listen to more of this, I’ll refrain from comment, I can sense my civility slipping from my grasp. Sorry, I did try.
    -Jim

    To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.

    Garrison Keillor

  35. #195
    Senior Member Jim Chabot's Avatar

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    Re: What the Bible says about Homosexuality...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dwayne Petry View Post
    Not popular but here goes!

    God does not heal sin, He forgives and brakes the bondage of sin. Makes us into a new creation. We need not remain bound by our sin! If He can deliver me from my sexual addictions, He can deliver the homosexual from their sexual addictions!

    Is your message, "Jesus did not die for the homosexual"! If so , could you please give your scriptural reference.

    The way some of you limit God is very disheartening to this believer who was delivered from a sin just as bad in God's eyes as homosexual sin! If I were a sinner and you were witnessing to me about your powerless god, there would be no attraction or hope for me.

    It's no wonder why the Church has lost its attraction. Some think God is not able to deliver certain sinners from their sin. I think you guys are discriminating against the homosexual. I'm sure glad my salvation did not depend on your wittiness, because my sin was just as sinful as the homosexual.

    Come to think about it, the world treats the "womanizer" in a better perception than the homosexual. You guys will tell the "womanizer" he can be delivered from his bondage to sin, but the homosexual cannot. You, like the world discriminate against the homosexual by telling him the "Good News" does not "work" for him. You then have the audacity to call it garbage when it does not work for the homosexual. How can it work, he has no more faith than you do.

    OK, load and let me have it with both barrels. I know you are angry. So am I, because I KNOW GOD can deliver the homosexual, the "womanizer", etc.

    This topic has been depressing for me. I had no idea there were those in the Church and especially the Church of the Nazarene who limited the power of GOD!

    GOD HAVE MERCY ON US!!!
    Thanks so much for this Dwayne, you are a breath of fresh air. Listening to the this video and reading this thread have been pretty depressing.

    Glad to hear from someone who thinks like a Nazarene. Do we believe in God's transforming power? You betcha we do!

    That's why we go out of our way to be loving and welcoming to anyone we meet, we know what has happened to us and what can happen for them!

    The Nazarene Church isn't a social club where we need to bend the definition of sin to gain members. It's a hospital!
    -Jim

    To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.

    Garrison Keillor

  36. #196
    Senior Member Ryan Pugh's Avatar

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    Re: What the Bible says about Homosexuality...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Chabot View Post
    Thanks so much for this Dwayne, you are a breath of fresh air. Listening to the this video and reading this thread have been pretty depressing.

    Glad to hear from someone who thinks like a Nazarene. Do we believe in God's transforming power? You betcha we do!

    That's why we go out of our way to be loving and welcoming to anyone we meet, we know what has happened to us and what can happen for them!

    The Nazarene Church isn't a social club where we need to bend the definition of sin to gain members. It's a hospital!
    As I have read the thread, I haven't seen anyone seeking to bend the definition of sin for any reasons, let alone to gain members. Instead, I've seen people genuinely seeking to understand the scriptural, and therefore, traditional and cultural, realities of homosexuality.

    So unless you weren't referring to anyone in this thread (which seems unlikely), for you to imply that some are bending the definition of sin to gain members is to question the integrity of those who are asking questions and maybe reaching different conclusions than you. Nobody is denying God's grace and transformative power.
    Most good things have been said far too many times and just need to be lived. - Shane Claiborne
    Thanks Benjamin Burch - "thanks" for this post

  37. #197
    Multi-Forum Host Kevin Rector's Avatar

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    Re: What the Bible says about Homosexuality...

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Sherwood View Post
    Not every desire has to be or can be fulfilled. Not every need has to be or can be met. Christianity is not nor has it ever been a path to optimal self-fulfillment; it is a path to eternal life and a narrow self-denying one at that. Not narrow-minded mind you, but one that few will choose according to our Lord. For some it will involve things even more difficult than sexual frustration.
    Clicking a thanks button wasn't enough. The fact of the matter is that we all have crosses to bear. The call of our master is the call to come and die with him, and in dying with him to find true life.

    I just re-read The Great Divorce, it keeps percolating in my mind as I read this thread... how each of the "ghosts" either couldn't see their sin, couldn't see how their sin was in fact sin, or couldn't see how to live without their sin.

    I think a lot of people have been fed a lie that their "sexual identity" is a core component of who they are as people. Many seem to see this as their primary identity. But unless our core identity is that we are children of the most high God, our sin will alway keep us from going further up and further in.

  38. #198
    Senior Member Benjamin Burch's Avatar

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    Re: What the Bible says about Homosexuality...

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Sherwood View Post
    Self-denial.

    I know. Easy for me to say.

    I haven't been given the "gift" of monogamy, but I practice it without exception. I have not been given the gift of organization, but I practice it with some exceptions. I have not been given the gift of listening, but I practice it sometimes even before speaking. I have not been given the gift of evangelism, but I am always ready to give a reason for the hope that I have.

    How many heterosexual marriage are sexless due to mental or physical illness, injury, or other life-interrupting circumstances? Or how about those who along the way just lose attraction to each other? How do we provide these unfulfilled partners a way out?

    Not every desire has to be or can be fulfilled. Not every need has to be or can be met. Christianity is not nor has it ever been a path to optimal self-fulfillment; it is a path to eternal life and a narrow self-denying one at that. Not narrow-minded mind you, but one that few will choose according to our Lord. For some it will involve things even more difficult than sexual frustration.

    Perhaps we should quit trying so hard to broaden it. There is already a broad road, but I don't like where it leads. I'm not interested in a gospel that doesn't call people into the narrow way but instead just helps them feel better about the path they are already on.

    You say you know people who have tried this and failed. So do I. I know other people who are trying it and succeeding. I know some who are in apparently fulfilling heterosexual marriages and others who have stayed single. Would you say they are living a lie? I think they are fighting the good fight.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Rector
    Clicking a thanks button wasn't enough. The fact of the matter is that we all have crosses to bear. The call of our master is the call to come and die with him, and in dying with him to find true life.

    I just re-read The Great Divorce, it keeps percolating in my mind as I read this thread... how each of the "ghosts" either couldn't see their sin, couldn't see how their sin was in fact sin, or couldn't see how to live without their sin.

    I think a lot of people have been fed a lie that their "sexual identity" is a core component of who they are as people. Many seem to see this as their primary identity. But unless our core identity is that we are children of the most high God, our sin will alway keep us from going further up and further in.
    It all sounds so good. I just can't buy it, though. This is way, way, way too easy to say for those of us who can fulfill the deepest longing we have without it being called "sin". This is far too easy for us to say. I can't buy it.


    What of those, and there are more all the time, who claim other orientations such as toward three-way marriage, polygamy, intimacy with inanimate objects, or inter-species?
    This is a red herring and has nothing to do with the conversation at hand.
    - Ben

    Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death! And to those in the tombs, bestowing life!
    Χριστὸς ἀνέστη ἐκ νεκρῶν, θανάτῳ θάνατον πατήσας! καὶ τοῖς ἐν τοῖς μνήμασι, ζωὴν χαρισάμενος!
    Thanks Paul DeBaufer - "thanks" for this post

  39. #199
    Senior Member Jim Chabot's Avatar

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    Re: What the Bible says about Homosexuality...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Pugh View Post
    As I have read the thread, I haven't seen anyone seeking to bend the definition of sin for any reasons, let alone to gain members. Instead, I've seen people genuinely seeking to understand the scriptural, and therefore, traditional and cultural, realities of homosexuality.

    So unless you weren't referring to anyone in this thread (which seems unlikely), for you to imply that some are bending the definition of sin to gain members is to question the integrity of those who are asking questions and maybe reaching different conclusions than you. Nobody is denying God's grace and transformative power.
    My reference to bending the definition of sin was/is directed at Matthew Vines. Have you watched the video?

    Matthew Vines is explicitly denying the transformative power of God. Again, have you watched the video?

    Perhaps I've made a mistake in assuming that those who have been commenting here for much longer than myself have actually watched the video and are commenting upon Matthew's testimony and argument?

    In any case I did not want to miss the chance to tell Dwayne how refreshing he has been here.
    -Jim

    To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.

    Garrison Keillor

  40. #200
    Senior Member Scott Sherwood's Avatar

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    Re: What the Bible says about Homosexuality...

    Quote Originally Posted by Benjamin Burch View Post
    This is a red herring and has nothing to do with the conversation at hand.
    Remember when gay and lesbian used to be the designation of choice for those who professed alternative sexual orientations? I remember a conversation in the late 80's with a gay friend of mine who said he was bothered that bisexuals were claiming it as an orientation, when clearly it could not be. It wasn't long until they had been welcomed into the civil rights fold with gays and lesbians. Then came the transgendered. Now I hear that there is also a Q as well, making the grouping GLBTQ.

    I'm not very old yet Ben, but already I have seen the progression from G to GLBTQ. Please don't tell me the possibility of adding a few more is a red herring.
    Thanks Jim Chabot, Dale Cozby - "thanks" for this post

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