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Thread: The Ethiopian Eunuch

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    Senior Member Benjamin Burch's Avatar

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    Re: The Ethiopiam Eunuch

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Bemis View Post
    I don't doubt that I'm cultural centric. Who's not? However, I do think it's a stretch to think that the eunuch mentioned in acts was a transgender individual with gender identity issues.
    This, to me, is a strange statement because it assumes that "gender identity issues" are a modern development. This also assumes that it goes along with the "choice" or "nurture" arguments and rejects any psychological and biological reality to such a condition. Because, if it were so, it would seem very strange to think that such a condition developed recently and didn't exist throughout earlier centuries or millennia of human history.

    If it is biological/psychological/physiological, and it has been around for centuries/millennia, then it doesn't seem far-fetched at all to speculate that some who chose to become eunuchs in other cultures, in other millennia, might have done so out of their own gender identity.

    I'm not in any way suggesting the Eunuch in Acts is such an individual. I'm simply trying to understand how one can say it is far fetched to suggest that this would be a possibility. Again, we agree that the culture at the time would not have thought about or articulated it in these types of terms, but that doesn't mean the same conditions weren't present under the surface, and undetectable before modern science/medicine.
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    Senior Member Jon Bemis's Avatar

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    Re: The Ethiopiam Eunuch

    Quote Originally Posted by Benjamin Burch View Post
    This, to me, is a strange statement because it assumes that "gender identity issues" are a modern development. This also assumes that it goes along with the "choice" or "nurture" arguments and rejects any psychological and biological reality to such a condition. Because, if it were so, it would seem very strange to think that such a condition developed recently and didn't exist throughout earlier centuries or millennia of human history.

    If it is biological/psychological/physiological, and it has been around for centuries/millennia, then it doesn't seem far-fetched at all to speculate that some who chose to become eunuchs in other cultures, in other millennia, might have done so out of their own gender identity.

    I'm not in any way suggesting the Eunuch in Acts is such an individual. I'm simply trying to understand how one can say it is far fetched to suggest that this would be a possibility. Again, we agree that the culture at the time would not have thought about or articulated it in these types of terms, but that doesn't mean the same conditions weren't present under the surface, and undetectable before modern science/medicine.
    I'm not saying that these conditions haven't always existed. I'm saying that using that as a lens to "find" support in Scripture for homosexuality is imposing our culture. It reminds of the argument an acquaintance made several years ago that because David and Jonathan kissed it proves they were gay.
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  3. #43
    Senior Member Benjamin Burch's Avatar

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    Re: The Ethiopiam Eunuch

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Bemis View Post
    I'm not saying that these conditions haven't always existed. I'm saying that using that as a lens to "find" support in Scripture for homosexuality is imposing our culture. It reminds of the argument an acquaintance made several years ago that because David and Jonathan kissed it proves they were gay.
    Then I must admit that I'm horribly confused by this exchange, Jon. It started with Paul wondering if the Eunuch had anything to do with something similar to transgender people. At that point, Doug responded with a pretty strong statement that no, it has nothing to do with that at all because we're "in the first century."

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Ward View Post
    No. Acts 8 does not describe a prostate cancer patient, a devotee of sexual assignment surgery, or one with a Body Identity Disorder. Can we stay in the first century here?
    To which I responded:


    Quote Originally Posted by Benjamin Burch View Post
    Well...... do we know the reasons people were eunuchs in the 1st Century? I say this because some eunuchs may have been so specifically because they, in some way, had gender identity issues akin to what a transvestite might have today. It's entirely possible - I wouldn't know one way or another. Naturally Acts 8 wouldn't know or communicate this.
    To which you, then, responded:


    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Bemis View Post
    IMO this sounds like a case of taking our culture and imposing it on another and supposing that we would find same meanings. I think Randy's proposal comes closer to the reason this man is a eunuch.
    So far, there has been no statement about homosexuality, or about "finding support" for homosexuality. There was merely curiosity about the possibility of the intersection of the Near Eastern practice of becoming a Eunuch in antiquity and those XY and XX chromosome individuals who experience their self as closer to the other than their own chromosome set. You, also, didn't say anything about using it as a lens to find support, but specifically implied that it is transgender issues which are a superimposition upon the text, because Randy's explanation comes "closer to the reason this man [was] a Eunuch."

    That is what prompted my last response. And now you respond here and, as I said, I'm a little confused. I don't see anyone trying to find support for homosexuality in Scripture by imposing our culture upon Scripture. Secondly, it seemed at first from your words that it was the identification of some Eunuchs in antiquity with individuals who struggle with gender identity that was the "imposition."

    I'm sorry to have read you wrong, but you probably could have been a little bit more clear. Also, as I said, I don't see anyone finding support for homosexuality. In fact, I havent' seen the idea be brought up yet.

    However, let me assure you, I do not find this passage to in any way support homosexuality.

    (1) While "T" is related, and a related conversation to "G" or "L", they are not the same. Plenty of "G" and "L" folks live just fine as "male" and "female" without ever having their identity relate to those who are "T".

    (2) If we were to say that some Eunuchs were folks who struggled with gender identity issues, it would not in any way support homosexual practice within Christianity.
    - Ben

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    Χριστὸς ἀνέστη ἐκ νεκρῶν, θανάτῳ θάνατον πατήσας! καὶ τοῖς ἐν τοῖς μνήμασι, ζωὴν χαρισάμενος!
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    Senior Member Steven Burton's Avatar

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    Re: The Ethiopian Eunuch

    I wonder if they knew about the third gender. Which seems to have been around in the 1st century and may have been around before that as a concept inside India, which would have had contact with the near east and many of the conquered lands of Alexander. And he did tend to adopt tribal and other civilized ideas into his own culture. I wonder if this could have some how made it was west through all the road that connected the east and west over the centuries following his rule or even through the roads made by the Persians.
    "Means we use must be as pure as the ends we seek."

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    Senior Member Cynthia Prentice's Avatar

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    Re: The Ethiopian Eunuch

    I have several quick thoughts...wish I had more time to expand them.

    In my study of eunuchs (as relates to Biblical culture) a eunuch is not gender neutral. He is very much a man. He is still a "tree"...only his "tree" is dry...he is a sterile man. In the Mishnah there is a distinction made between a eunuch and others with ambiguous sexual characteristics, one example being a hermaphrodite (also gender designated as male and allowed to take a wife and even allowed in the priesthood). The eunuch is a male who is sterile.

    It is very important to note that the Mishnah distinguishes between two types of sterility, those who are natural eunuchs (saris hamma) and those who are man-made eunuchs (saris adam). The following descriptions are a brief overview.

    Man-made eunuch (saris adam)
    A man who has been castrated
    Excluded from the Assembly because of cutting or crushing by man
    No hope for reversal of condition
    Because he is sterile, he is a man who will not produce heirs.
    This purposeful sterility, effectively limits the man's loyalty to his own family (because he does not have descendants) and focuses his loyalty on the royal family.

    Congenital, natural eunuch (saris hamma)
    A man who was born with a birth defect that makes him sterile
    Also one who has not shown signs of puberty by age 35
    This man does not have any restrictions regarding marriage...he is free to marry an Israelite
    Hope for this man that his condition could be reversed...healed

    Mishnah has lots to say about eunuchs...rabbinic halakhic discourse (in the following passage, halitzah and yibbum are referring to the obligation of a man to marry his deceased brother's wife and give her a child to carry on her dead husband's name - a quick google search can fill you in on the two terms)

    Yevamot 8:4
    Introduction
    This mishnah contains a discussion about whether or not a eunuch is obligated to perform halitzah for his dead brother’s wife and whether or not halitzah is performed for his wife, should he die without children. Note that this issue is tied to the eunuch’s ability or lack thereof to have children. One who cannot have children would be less likely to be subject to the laws of halitzah and yibbum whose purpose is to supply children for the dead brother.
    Mishnah 4
    אָמַר רַבִּי יְהוֹשֻׁעַ, שָׁמַעְתִּי שֶׁהַסָּרִיס חוֹלֵץ, וְחוֹלְצִין לְאִשְׁתּוֹ, וְהַסָּרִיס לֹא חוֹלֵץ וְלֹא חוֹלְצִין לְאִשְׁתּוֹ, וְאֵין לִי לְפָרֵשׁ. אָמַר רַבִּי עֲקִיבָא, אֲנִי אֲפָרֵשׁ. סְרִיס אָדָם חוֹלֵץ וְחוֹלְצִין לְאִשְׁתּוֹ, מִפְּנֵי שֶׁהָיְתָה לוֹ שְׁעַת הַכֹּשֶׁר. סְרִיס חַמָּה לֹא חוֹלֵץ וְלֹא חוֹלְצִין לְאִשְׁתּוֹ, מִפְּנֵי שֶׁלֹּא הָיְתָה לוֹ שְׁעַת הַכֹּשֶׁר. רַבִּי אֱלִיעֶזֶר אוֹמֵר, לֹא כִי, אֶלָּא סְרִיס חַמָּה חוֹלֵץ, וְחוֹלְצִין לְאִשְׁתּוֹ, מִפְּנֵי שֶׁיֶּשׁ לוֹ רְפוּאָה. סְרִיס אָדָם לֹא חוֹלֵץ וְלֹא חוֹלְצִין לְאִשְׁתּוֹ, מִפְּנֵי שֶׁאֵין לוֹ רְפוּאָה. הֵעיד רַבִּי יְהוֹשֻׁעַ בֶּן בְּתֵירָא עַל בֶּן מְגוּסַת שֶׁהָיָה בִירוּשָׁלַיִם סְרִיס אָדָם, וְיִבְּמוּ אֶת אִשְׁתּוֹ, לְקַיֵּם דִּבְרֵי רַבִּי עֲקִיבָא:
    1. Rabbi Joshua said: I have heard that a eunuch performs halitzah and that halitzah is performed by others for his wife, and also that a eunuch does not perform halitzah and that no halitzah is performed for his wife, and I am unable to explain this.
    2. Rabbi Akiva said: I will explain it: a man-made eunuch performs halitzah and halitzah is also performed for his wife, because there was a time when he was fit [to have children]. A eunuch by nature neither performs halitzah nor is halitzah performed for his wife, since there never was a time when he was fit.
    3. Rabbi Eliezer said: Not so! Rather a eunuch by nature performs halitzah and halitzah is performed for his wife, because he may be cured. A man-made eunuch neither performs halitzah nor is halitzah performed for his wife, since he cannot be cured.
    4. Rabbi Joshua ben Baterra testified concerning Ben Megusat, who was a man-made eunuch living in Jerusalem and they performed yibbum for his wife, thus confirming the opinion of Rabbi Akiva.
    Explanation
    Section 1: Rabbi Joshua transmits an old halakhah that he has heard, but that he doesn’t know how to explain. In these words we can see how halakhot were often transmitted in pithy, memorable phrases, such that later sages sometimes did not know how to explain them.
    Rabbi Joshua has heard that eunuchs are subject to the laws of halitzah and he has also heard the opposite. He does not know if these two halakhot apply to two different types of eunuchs or whether they contradict each other.
    Section 2: Rabbi Akiva explains the puzzle brought up by Rabbi Joshua. The eunuch who was castrated by humans performs halitzah for his dead brother’s wife. [He cannot have yibbum, because he is forbidden to marry Israelites, as we learned above.] If he should die without children, halitzah or yibbum is performed for his wife. The reason that he is subject to the laws of yibbum is that he was at one time not a eunuch and he was fit to have children. In contrast, the eunuch who was born a eunuch was never fit to have children, and therefore is not subject to the laws of halitzah. Should he die, his wife is exempt from both halitzah and yibbum. Should his brother die, he does not perform halitzah for his widow.
    Section 3: Rabbi Eliezer offers the opposite reading and solution to the tradition transmitted by Rabbi Joshua. The eunuch who is subject to the laws of halitzah and yibbum is one who was born a eunuch, since he could potentially be cured, and then he could have children. A eunuch who was castrated by others cannot be cured (even today this is not a simple procedure). Therefore, he is not subject to the laws of halitzah and yibbum.
    Section 4: Rabbi Joshua ben Batera testifies about a man-made eunuch, that they performed yibbum for his wife. This proves what Rabbi Akiva said, that man-made eunuchs are subject to the laws of halitzah and yibbum. Note that what proves that Rabbi Akiva is correct is a precedent, and not any inherent logic to his words.
    Yevamot 8:5
    Introduction
    This mishnah discusses the performance of yibbum or halitzah by a eunuch or by an aylonit, a woman who has not developed signs of sexual maturity, and therefore by definition cannot procreate. Both of these categories are therefore people who cannot procreate. Since they cannot procreate they are excluded from the laws of halitzah and yibbum, as we learned in the previous mishnah.
    Mishnah 5
    הַסָּרִיס לֹא חוֹלֵץ, וְלֹא מְיַבֵּם. וְכֵן אַיְלוֹנִית לֹא חוֹלֶצֶת וְלֹא מִתְיַבֶּמֶת. הַסָּרִיס שֶׁחָלַץ לִיבִמְתּוֹ, לֹא פְסָלָהּ. בְּעָלָהּ פְּסָלָהּ, מִפְּנֵי שֶׁהִיא בְעִילַת זְנוּת. וְכֵן אַיְלוֹנִית שֶׁחָלְצוּ לָהּ אַחִין, לֹא פְסָלוּהָ. בְּעָלוּהָ, פְּסָלוּהָ, מִפְּנֵי שֶׁבְּעִילָתָהּ בְּעִילַת זְנוּת:
    1. The eunuch neither performs halitzah nor contracts yibbum.
    2. So too a woman who is incapable of procreation neither performs halitzah nor is taken in yibbum.
    3. If a eunuch performed halitzah for his yevamah, he does not disqualify her [from subsequently marrying a priest].
    a) If he has intercourse with her he disqualifies her, since this is an act of fornication.
    4. Similarly where brothers performed halitzah for a woman incapable of procreation, they do not disqualify her [from marrying a priest].
    a) If they have intercourse with her they do disqualify her, since this is an act of fornication.
    Explanation
    Section 1: We have already seen this halakhah in the previous mishnah. Here it either refers to a man-made eunuch, who according to Rabbi Akiva does not perform halitzah. Alternatively, it refers to all eunuchs and this mishnah contains an opinion that disagrees with both opinions in the previous mishnah.
    Section 2: A woman who is physically incapable of procreating is not subject to the laws of halitzah or yibbum. Since the point of yibbum is procreation, those who cannot procreate are exempt.
    Section 3: Since a eunuch does not perform halitzah, there is no validity to an act of halitzah that he performs. If he nevertheless does so, he has not thereby disqualified the woman from subsequently marrying a priest. [A halutzah is forbidden to be married by a priest].
    However, if he has intercourse with her, as an attempted act of yibbum, he has disqualified her from marrying a priest, because this was forbidden. Since she was not liable for yibbum, she is prohibited to him by the prohibition of being his brother’s wife. [Remember any time yibbum is not necessary, the prohibition of a brother’s wife is effective, even after the brother’s death]. Any woman who has had relations with a man forbidden to her is subsequently prohibited from marrying a priest.
    Section 4: This section contains nearly the same laws with regard to the woman who cannot procreate. If one of the brothers performs halitzah he has not disqualified her from marrying a priest. However, if one of them tries to have yibbum with her, she is disqualified, because she was prohibited to him, as his brother’s wife.
    Yevamot 8:6
    Introduction
    This mishnah deals with several categories of people who are of doubtful gender status. A hermaphrodite is a person who has the outer sexual signs of both a male and a female. A tumtum is a person who has no outer sexual signs.
    Mishnah 6
    סְרִיס חַמָּה כֹּהֵן שֶׁנָּשָׂא בַת יִשְׂרָאֵל, מַאֲכִילָהּ בַּתְּרוּמָה. רַבִּי יוֹסֵי וְרַבִּי שִׁמְעוֹן אוֹמְרִים, אַנְדְּרוֹגִינוֹס כֹּהֵן שֶׁנָּשָׂא בַת יִשְׂרָאֵל, מַאֲכִילָהּ בַּתְּרוּמָה. רַבִּי יְהוּדָה אוֹמֵר, טֻמְטוּם שֶׁנִּקְרַע וְנִמְצָא זָכָר, לֹא יַחֲלוֹץ, מִפְּנֵי שֶׁהוּא כַסָּרִיס. אַנְדְּרוֹגִינוֹס נוֹשֵׂא, אֲבָל לֹא נִשָּׂא. רַבִּי אֱלִיעֶזֶר אוֹמֵר, אַנְדְּרוֹגִינוֹס חַיָּבִים עָלָיו סְקִילָה כַּזָּכָר:
    1. If a priest who was eunuch by nature married the daughter of an Israelite, he confers upon her the right to eat terumah.
    2. Rabbi Yose and Rabbi Shimon stated: if a priest who was an hermaphrodite married the daughter of an Israelite, he confers upon her the right to eat terumah.
    3. Rabbi Judah stated: if a tumtum was opened up and found to be a male, he may not perform halitzah, because he has the same status as a eunuch.
    4. The hermaphrodite may marry [a wife] but may not be married [by a man].
    5. Rabbi Eliezer stated: concerning the hermaphrodite, [the one who has relations with him] is liable to be stoned like one [who has relations with] a male.
    Explanation
    Section 1: A eunuch by nature is not forbidden from marrying Israelite women (he is not considered to be a “petzua daka,” one whose testes were crushed. Therefore, if he is a priest and he marries the daughter of an Israelite, the marriage is valid and he is allowed to eat terumah.
    Section 2: A priest who is a hermaphrodite is allowed to marry the daughter of an Israelite. With regard to marriage, he is treated as if he was fully male. Therefore, if he is a priest, his wife may eat terumah.
    Section 3: A tumtum may have been born with his sexual organs covered by a thin sac of skin. Even if they open up this sac and find that he is male, he may not perform halitzah, since his status is like that of a eunuch. Assumedly, the tumtum cannot procreate and therefore is exempt from the laws of halitzah and yibbum.
    Section 4: As we learned in section 2, a hermaphrodite is treated like a male. He may marry a woman but may not be married by a man.
    Section 5: According to Rabbi Eliezer, if another man has relations with a hermaphrodite, he is liable to be stoned, as are all men who engage in intercourse with other men. This is Rabbi Eliezer’s way of stating that the hermaphrodite is to be treated completely as if he is a male.
    http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...7N6v1CnHqaHyWw

    The wording of the eunuch passage in Isaiah is clever Hebrew with an implied double meaning. The eunuch will be allowed in and God will give him a yad (we translate this as "memorial") and a name....that no one can cut off. Yad can be translated as memorial...but it is also a euphemism for genitals. The wording of the Hebrew strongly implies that the eunuch spoken of in Isaiah is saris adam...one who was made a eunuch by the cutting or crushing of testicles. The good news for this eunuch is that he is going to get a yad from God that no one can cut off. And, of course it is the saris adam, not the saris hamma that is excluded from the assembly.

    Because this is the passage that immediately follows the place where the Ethiopian Eunuch is reading, and because the Ethiopian Eunuch was in the service of the Queen it is almost certain that the Ethiopian eunuch was a saris adam.

    One more thought - Upon hearing the story of the Ethiopian eunuch's baptism, the Jews of that day would have immediately remembered the Ethiopian eunuch of the Old Testament...that wonderful story in Jeremiah of Ebed-Melech, the Ethiopian eunuch, Servant of the King and the salvation that came to him because he trusted in God.

    I guess my bottom line is that we need to be true to the culture of the time, the rabbinic halakhic discourse of the time, and we need to let the text interpret the text....none of these things point to the Ethiopian eunuch as being a homosexual.


    *In my earlier post about the Ethiopian Eunuch, I described him as though he were castrated before he had sexually matured. It is just as likely that he was castrated after he had sexually matured and if that were the case he would have retained the physical stature and build he had before castration.
    Last edited by Cynthia Prentice; May 16th, 2012 at 12:07 PM.
    "I'll give you a full life in the emptiest of places...You'll use the old rubble of past lives to build anew... You'll be known as those who can fix anything, restore old ruins, rebuild and renovate, make the community livable again." Isaiah 58:11-12 (THE MESSAGE)



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  6. #46
    Senior Member Cynthia Prentice's Avatar

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    Re: The Ethiopian Eunuch

    One more thought...then I'm headed back up to skilled nursing with my mom.

    When Jesus' words about eunuchs are placed within the context of his discussion regarding divorce and specifically his stand against the Hillel teaching that a man could divorce his wife for any reason, and taking into account the reaction of his disciples who seemed very disappointed that Jesus taught it was wrong for a man to just dump his wife for any whim...it is very possible that Jesus' words about eunuchs mean something different than we have been taught. Obviously the first two references to eunuchs are to saris hamma and saris adam, natural born and man made eunuchs, but it is quite possible that his third reference is a negative, tongue in cheek reference to the Essene Community who required celibacy of its members...in other words they "castrated" themselves for the Kingdom. (This is not that far of a stretch as it is very likely that Jesus' parable of the Shrewd Manager was referring to the Essene Community and their exclusiveness and isolation regarding their finances and their lack of assistance to the poor)

    If one really looks at the response of the disciples, it is rather pathetic...seriously...they are whining because they will not be able to divorce their wives on a whim. If their age was the same as their contemporaries, disciples of other rabbis, they were all, except Peter, unmarried teenagers. Jesus in his humor that is so often overlooked, could be saying...yes, it is hard...but if you think it is too hard to be married in light of my teaching I guess you could just be a eunuch, "castrate" yourselves for the Kingdom like the Essenes...but if you marry, you need to receive my teaching.
    Last edited by Cynthia Prentice; May 16th, 2012 at 06:44 PM.
    "I'll give you a full life in the emptiest of places...You'll use the old rubble of past lives to build anew... You'll be known as those who can fix anything, restore old ruins, rebuild and renovate, make the community livable again." Isaiah 58:11-12 (THE MESSAGE)



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    Site Coordinator Hans Deventer's Avatar

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    Re: The Ethiopian Eunuch

    Gooooood stuff, Cynthia! Very helpful. A mere thanks was not enough.
    "No scripture can mean that God is not love, or that his mercy is not over all his works" (John Wesley - Free Grace, 26)
    Thanks Cynthia Prentice - "thanks" for this post

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    Senior Member Doug Ward's Avatar

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    Re: The Ethiopiam Eunuch

    Let's all pretend we have been transported into the future - the year 4013, and we are sifting through the archaelogical remains of our culture. We find a crumpled magazine article that talks about the Americans and the Taliban in a struggle in Afghanistan. That article goes into detail talking about how some in the Taliban are sacrificing themselves in a war in order to overcome the Americans. Well, we would talk about how some people strapped bombs to themselves and blew themselves up in order to defeat the enemy.
    Then someone strides into our group and says wait a minute - I know there was a game that was played where people used a wooden stick to hit a ball, and sometimes they would use the word sacrifice to describe a part of the game. So let's not rush, this article might describe the Taliban waving a wooden stick around. My hope would be, that the group would say, "No - we have the common usage, we have the setting described in our article, so we must stick with the overwhelming meaning, unless we have a historical reason to do otherwise."
    This is what we have in Acts 8. We have a common, overwhelming meaning and usage of the word "eunuch." We even have the setting in 8:27, where the eunuch is explicitly linked to the royal office of queen. We have the construction of the greek word for eunuch, which means the "holder of the bed." In short there is absolutely no reason whatsoever to take any meaning for eunuch outside of what the setting, and overwhelming usage call for here. To suggest otherwise, or hint otherwise is irresponsible exegetically. Any desire to do so smells like a modern desire to insert a modern concern back into this specific text.
    On second thought, let's not go to Camelot. It is a silly place.
    Thanks Jim Chabot, Jon Bemis - "thanks" for this post

  9. #49
    Senior Member Doug Ward's Avatar

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    Re: The Ethiopian Eunuch

    Well done!!
    On second thought, let's not go to Camelot. It is a silly place.
    Thanks Cynthia Prentice - "thanks" for this post

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