Do Nazarenes care about the survival of the weakest?

[Bob Hunter]

I saw this letter posted on Ian Ebright's FB wall. He is the lead writer at the Broken Telegraph in Seattle, WA. It is about a young couple who attend a Nazarene Church.

I was wondering if any of you might care to comment. Yeah, it's going to rip your heart out. Ouch! There is one 4 letter word, but I'm content to leave it in there because the context is appropriate and truth be told, many of us have used similar words and even stronger to express our outrage at injustice.


Let me give you some background. I'm 34, married, 2 kids. I'm a marriage and family therapist, my husband is a school psychologist. We own a home in rural PA. My degrees are from a Christian college and a seminary. We belong to a Nazarene church.

And we can't stand Christians.

In my work, I am the supervisor of an in-home family therapy program working with Medicaid clients. The darkest places, really, are where I work. Dogs drool on me, half-naked kids get my clothes dirty with their sticky hands, mothers smoke, and fathers are pretty much nonexistent. People are just trying to figure out how to make it through the day without social services coming and hauling their kids away.

They don't give a damn about the culture wars. They don't care if Mike and Bob get married. they just want to pay the rent. They want to put food on the table. They want to learn how to effectively manage their kids "so they don't end up like me."

I've been working with this population for 12 years. Ian, maybe I'm submursed in a culture of poverty and don't get the big picture, but where is the justice for these kids? Where is Christ in these dark places? Because I gotta tell you, I haven't seen any of my 600 Evangelical congregation knocking on doors sharing the love of Christ.

They are busy doing other things.

[Marian Schwaller Carney]

I will find sympathy as well as credibility for her comments first if we find out she has tried to get her church to respond and they have not. If it is a dead church, why is she still there? Why is she telling this to a newspaper journalist? "And we can't stand Christians." Is that supposed to make some kind of profound point?

And to answer the question, from what I have seen in the churches I know, Yes, Nazarenes do indeed care about the weakest.

[Dennis M. Scott]

Well, it gets lonely when you're the only one from your church who cares about what you're doing. My guess is that several in her church feel good about her being where she works. It sure would be better if she had influence on some other Christians she can't stand.

[Kevin Rector]

It sure would be better if she had influence on some other Christians she can't stand.

I don't know this lady or her circumstance, so this comment might not apply to her at all, but generally, it's hard to influence people if you hold them in a rather high state of contempt.

[Paul DeBaufer]

I've seen similar situations in churches I've been in. However, it wasn't so much a lack of caring as a lack of knowing. Of course, some of that not knowing was an intentional blindness. It is hard for some to accept the depth or the reality of poverty or that it really exists so very close to home. Again, even in the blindness of those who will not see there is not necessarily a lack of caring.

I have known individuals within these churches who would be glad to go into these poverty stricken homes IF they saw an opportunity to raise awareness of the church, their church. Where such a mission would be jewelry. That said, I think them to be in the minority.

Bottom line is I think many more people and churches care than it really seems. For many it is unawareness of the situation and then not knowing what to do. Maybe this woman needs to use her knowledge and training to raise awareness within her church and then teach people the best ways to address it.

[Bob Hunter]

I've seen similar situations in churches I've been in. However, it wasn't so much a lack of caring as a lack of knowing. Of course, some of that not knowing was an intentional blindness. It is hard for some to accept the depth or the reality of poverty or that it really exists so very close to home. Again, even in the blindness of those who will not see there is not necessarily a lack of caring.

I have known individuals within these churches who would be glad to go into these poverty stricken homes IF they saw an opportunity to raise awareness of the church, their church. Where such a mission would be jewelry. That said, I think them to be in the minority.

Bottom line is I think many more people and churches care than it really seems. For many it is unawareness of the situation and then not knowing what to do. Maybe this woman needs to use her knowledge and training to raise awareness within her church and then teach people the best ways to address it.

Not long ago, a Nazarene associate (who shall remain nameless) shared a disturbing story with me. The Church where he worked was situated in a densely populated area where economic hardships and homelessness were prevalent. The senior pastor had a rather muted response. In fact, when transients loitered around the Church campus he would regularly run them off (apparently for security reasons). I guess this shocks me a bit. Why not open a day shelter once a week and staff it with volunteers? I mean, you don't want your church to get the reputation of shunning the poor and destitute. It doesn't take much to run a day shelter, I've done it before. Just set the hours when your building can be open and staff it with some good volunteers. Have some stinky Church furniture for folks to lounge on and then shove them back in a closet when the shelter hours are over. Offer some coffee and snacks and perhaps give them access to the clothing closet or a supply of socks. It's really not that hard to show compassion on these folks. I'm just appalled that a pastor would run them off instead of doing something to help. You can't do everything, but you can at least do something. Nothing is unacceptable.

[Jim Franklin]

The ones I know certainly do. I do not know of any Nazarene congregation that does not have some way of providing help and comfort for the weakest. I do know that there are some impoverished folks who are so prideful that they reject help for fear that they are then obligated to visit or attend that church. Freely give, no strings attached. It is up to those folks to receive and don't expect gratitude. Some feel like they will be looked down upon for their status.

I am most grateful to all those who have sent help to me last fall and winter and I have tried to send such expressions to those who included a name. Some did not, so to whomever be assured I am grateful.

[Paul DeBaufer]

Not long ago, a Nazarene associate (who shall remain nameless) shared a disturbing story with me. The Church where he worked was situated in a densely populated area where economic hardships and homelessness were prevalent. The senior pastor had a rather muted response. In fact, when transients loitered around the Church campus he would regularly run them off (apparently for security reasons). I guess this shocks me a bit. Why not open a day shelter once a week and staff it with volunteers? I mean, you don't want your church to get the reputation of shunning the poor and destitute. It doesn't take much to run a day shelter, I've done it before. Just set the hours when your building can be open and staff it with some good volunteers. Have some stinky Church furniture for folks to lounge on and then shove them back in a closet when the shelter hours are over. Offer some coffee and snacks and perhaps give them access to the clothing closet or a supply of socks. It's really not that hard to show compassion on these folks. I'm just appalled that a pastor would run them off instead of doing something to help. You can't do everything, but you can at least do something. Nothing is unacceptable.

Reminds me of a church I once knew. It took a while but with the persistence of a strong member the board finally opened its doors to the area's nomadic sheltering program. At that time the program ran from November to April. Unfortunately, this program could only accept 9 people from our area (about 40 from about 30 miles away). These 9 would get showers and a place to stow their belongings, and then transported to host churches for dinner and a warm place to sleep for the night.

One Summer, under a new pastor who was very supportive of efforts to the poor and homeless, a couple of us approached him and the board with a proposal to open our showers a couple times a week to the area's homeless. The board shot it down citing the nomadic sheltering program was going to begin serving people all year 'round beginning in 2.5 months. (I would let any that came to me in to use the showers, the pastor knew, we just kept it quiet.)

It was through this experience that the jewelry metaphor struck me and it was driven by a single, powerful personality (not the one who pushed hard to get the homeless program in in the first place). Now there were board members who resisted using the building for such purposes, were okay with me letting one or two use them but didn't want the doors open. They fully supported the nomadic program. I do know that the congregation loves to come out and help when that church is the evening's host and providing the meal.

[Billy Cox]

I don't know this lady or her circumstance, so this comment might not apply to her at all, but generally, it's hard to influence people if you hold them in a rather high state of contempt.

It's true that we don't know much about the situation...and it's human nature to fill-in some of the blanks with our own biases.

Maybe the writer is full of contempt. Maybe the writer is responding to the church's expressed contempt for homosexuals and for 'big government handouts' to the poor. Who knows?

I do find that contempt is a currency in plentiful supply in religious circles. I personally find it difficult not to play by their rules and sometimes I can't resist joining in.

I agree that contempt is a dead-end to community, to relationship, to redemption.

[Billy Cox]

I saw this letter posted on Ian Ebright's FB wall. He is the lead writer at the Broken Telegraph in Seattle, WA. It is about a young couple who attend a Nazarene Church.

I was wondering if any of you might care to comment. Yeah, it's going to rip your heart out. Ouch! There is one 4 letter word, but I'm content to leave it in there because the context is appropriate and truth be told, many of us have used similar words and even stronger to express our outrage at injustice.


Let me give you some background. I'm 34, married, 2 kids. I'm a marriage and family therapist, my husband is a school psychologist. We own a home in rural PA. My degrees are from a Christian college and a seminary. We belong to a Nazarene church.

And we can't stand Christians.

In my work, I am the supervisor of an in-home family therapy program working with Medicaid clients. The darkest places, really, are where I work. Dogs drool on me, half-naked kids get my clothes dirty with their sticky hands, mothers smoke, and fathers are pretty much nonexistent. People are just trying to figure out how to make it through the day without social services coming and hauling their kids away.

They don't give a damn about the culture wars. They don't care if Mike and Bob get married. they just want to pay the rent. They want to put food on the table. They want to learn how to effectively manage their kids "so they don't end up like me."

I've been working with this population for 12 years. Ian, maybe I'm submursed in a culture of poverty and don't get the big picture, but where is the justice for these kids? Where is Christ in these dark places? Because I gotta tell you, I haven't seen any of my 600 Evangelical congregation knocking on doors sharing the love of Christ.

They are busy doing other things.

For those who say that the government needs to get out of the charity business and let the church do it, this is exhibit 'A' in why they have no idea what they are volunteering for.

[Dennis M. Scott]

I suspect we need to be reminded. Jesus seemed to feel that we (somebody) needed such a reminder. It's apparently easier to be occasionally reminded, and occasionally involved: occasionally compassionate. Also, it probably is appropriate that each of us be fully committed to the call the Lord has issued. I'm not so sure it's allright to insist that everybody else respond to the call the Lord has given us. My opinion is that the greatest challenge facing the COTN is the economic disparity gap. The Lord has blessed us mightily, and the tendency is to let redemption and lift run its natural course. Consequently, we not only become comfortable in our higher socio-economic situation, but we forget where we came from and who it was that brung us to the dance. We are especially awkward at assimilating the poor and disenfranchised. The separation is natural, but it seems like we are called to do the supranatural.

If the church the woman attends is the one I'm thinking about, the last decade has been pretty rough. If I'm right, I could understand such a person feeling like she expressed. That's no excuse, but sometimes context helps.

[Ed DiSante]

well--being the program director of a Nazarene Compassionate Ministry Center/Family Homeless Shelter i am happy to say that i know that given the information and the opportunity to show that they care-the Nazarene's on the New England District do care.

[Sarah Smith]

The Nazarenes and the Christians in general in my town care.

Govt programs excluded we offer food, garden space and help and water, medical care, housing, baby sitting, money management classes, counselling, and addiction treatment. (Not all any one church, but cooperatively.)

We visit. We try.

Rather than say I can't stand the Christians, I can say I understand those with compassion fatigue.

Trying to help the poorest of the poor for years gets very fatiguing if you work with those that will not (not cannot) help themselves at all.

I'm thinking of examples such as "can I use your dryer? I don't have one" when they have a clothesline, it is a hot summer day, and they have the energy for sports outdoors.

Or "can I have some of your vegetables" and then "no, I don't want to help you weed or pick them. Never did like gardening."

Every story has two sides.

But I do get tired of hearing how the Christians just don't care and aren't doing anything.

Many of us are working our butts off out there.

[G R 'Scott' Cundiff]

Do you think our denomination is going to transition from "worship wars" over music styles, etc. to "gospel wars" in which we have a tug of war over "social gospel" versus "salvation gospel"? It seems I hear more complaints these days that the denomination doesn't do enough to minister to the poor, the outsider, etc. and less about lack of evangelism. I'm not trying to set up an adviserial situation here - just noting that "we don't do enough for the poor" seems to be cropping up more often than it used to.

I'm not interested in casting my lot with the folks who pine for protracted revivals and going door to door with the four spiritual laws. Also, I'm well aware that it doesn't have to be one or the other - in fact, the two work together nicely. Still, that's not what I'm hearing. I don't hear people saying, "We need to show compassion on the poor so we can influence them for Christ" - all I hear is, "Jesus was compassionate toward outsiders and we're not good disciples of his unless we are too."

So, are "gospel wars" going to dominate the denomination for the next 20 years or so as "worship wars" dominated it for the past 20?

[Steven Burton]

Do you think our denomination is going to transition from "worship wars" over music styles, etc. to "gospel wars" in which we have a tug of war over "social gospel" versus "salvation gospel"? It seems I hear more complaints these days that the denomination doesn't do enough to minister to the poor, the outsider, etc. and less about lack of evangelism. I'm not trying to set up an adviserial situation here - just noting that "we don't do enough for the poor" seems to be cropping up more often than it used to.

I'm not interested in casting my lot with the folks who pine for protracted revivals and going door to door with the four spiritual laws. Also, I'm well aware that it doesn't have to be one or the other - in fact, the two work together nicely. Still, that's not what I'm hearing. I don't hear people saying, "We need to show compassion on the poor so we can influence them for Christ" - all I hear is, "Jesus was compassionate toward outsiders and we're not good disciples of his unless we are too."

So, are "gospel wars" going to dominate the denomination for the next 20 years or so as "worship wars" dominated it for the past 20?

Maybe it is because the salvation gospel is also the social gospel. Maybe they are both one on the same coin we just have been ignoring one side of the coin.

[Bob Hunter]

Do you think our denomination is going to transition from "worship wars" over music styles, etc. to "gospel wars" in which we have a tug of war over "social gospel" versus "salvation gospel"? It seems I hear more complaints these days that the denomination doesn't do enough to minister to the poor, the outsider, etc. and less about lack of evangelism. I'm not trying to set up an adviserial situation here - just noting that "we don't do enough for the poor" seems to be cropping up more often than it used to.

I'm not interested in casting my lot with the folks who pine for protracted revivals and going door to door with the four spiritual laws. Also, I'm well aware that it doesn't have to be one or the other - in fact, the two work together nicely. Still, that's not what I'm hearing. I don't hear people saying, "We need to show compassion on the poor so we can influence them for Christ" - all I hear is, "Jesus was compassionate toward outsiders and we're not good disciples of his unless we are too."

So, are "gospel wars" going to dominate the denomination for the next 20 years or so as "worship wars" dominated it for the past 20?

I think that is a great question. What I think has happened is that some bright spots in the denomination have emerged and we should celebrate that for sure. But there are still segments of Nazarenedom that are accommodating themselves and nurturing an old culture that no longer exist except within the four walls of the Church. But the Western Church as a whole seems to be losing its point of connection with culture. Many leaders are failing to engage postmodern culture perhaps because they do not understand the opportunities. So I think there is definitely a mixed bag.

[Todd Erickson]

I was listening to an interesting podcast recently where the speaker was talking about the conflict between message and method.

We need to be able to deal honestly with both of those and how they affect how we operate in the world, but for far too many people, either or both are assumed or tradition, and cannot be questioned without somehow attacking the denomination (whatever that denomination is). And we often use inaccurate but highly popular labels to categorize those who don't follow our message and method.

Those liberals. They just want social justice and love, there's no place for Jesus in their lives.

Those conservatives. They just want hellfire and self righteousness, and they cheered for the death penalty and people dying without health care during the Republican debates in 2011. I can't see Jesus in them at all.

Etc.

Our methods can be revivals and altars and everything Mr. Finney gave us. They can be shelters and food pantries and Saturday outreach events.

Our message can be anything from The way of the Master to liberation theology.

But we declare, often, that the source of both is Christ. Perhaps our approach to both message and method is, far too often, exegetical... we know what we want to do, we find the affirmation for it in the bible and in what works (and really, if it works, we know God is blessing it, right?) and we move on from there.

We can also have unhealthy expectations. This woman spends her life working with these disadvantage people as a job (my wife did this for about 4 or 5 years, and it about killed it, it drained all of the joy right out of her) but is her church capable of addressing this issue? What are they using their money for? Are there local standards that govern what the church could use money for, and how it could constructively help people without becoming abused or sued?

I know of at least one church that started giving something like 60% of it's income to the poor, and services for the poor. They were asked what would happen if somebody abused their generosity. The pastor said he kind of hoped somebody would. So far, God seems to be using them pretty effectively in their community. But they felt a specific call and answered it in service.

We like to say "the church doesn't do this..." But it's not the church. It's people.

[Dennis M. Scott]

My observation is that when we begin new works among the poor, run by the poor, and owned by the poor, the poor make disciples. When the not so poor attempt to "support" the poor, and minister to the poor, compassionate ministry things happen, but the most compassionate of all - disciple making - doesn't take place as readily. So what is the "not so poor" believer to do?

[Wilson Deaton]

My observation is that when we begin new works among the poor, run by the poor, and owned by the poor, the poor make disciples. When the not so poor attempt to "support" the poor, and minister to the poor, compassionate ministry things happen, but the most compassionate of all - disciple making - doesn't take place as readily. So what is the "not so poor" believer to do?

Another question: When begun among poor, run by the poor, owned by the poor, what does one do for resources?

(I can't tell you how many times I've heard, "We need to reach some of the 'better off' first so we have the resources to reach the poor.")

Wilson

[Hans Deventer]

So, are "gospel wars" going to dominate the denomination for the next 20 years or so as "worship wars" dominated it for the past 20?

I think the devil is happy either way.

[Jim Chabot]

My observation is that when we begin new works among the poor, run by the poor, and owned by the poor, the poor make disciples. When the not so poor attempt to "support" the poor, and minister to the poor, compassionate ministry things happen, but the most compassionate of all - disciple making - doesn't take place as readily. So what is the "not so poor" believer to do?

We need to practice solidarity with the poor whom we are reaching out to. We need to hang out with them, actually become friends. We need to do more than give them something from our hand, we must hold theirs. Maybe we need to learn to dress down a little bit, maybe we need to not let their language or manners bother us. Maybe we need to do as Paul teaches, become all things that we may reach some. We need to let our hair down, so to speak.

Just a thought.

[Jim Chabot]

Do you think our denomination is going to transition from "worship wars" over music styles, etc. to "gospel wars" in which we have a tug of war over "social gospel" versus "salvation gospel"? It seems I hear more complaints these days that the denomination doesn't do enough to minister to the poor, the outsider, etc. and less about lack of evangelism. I'm not trying to set up an adviserial situation here - just noting that "we don't do enough for the poor" seems to be cropping up more often than it used to.

You are right Scott, it seems that the pendulum may have swung too far. I was especially moved by Bob's opening post, I was moved toward anger. Granted working with poor folks is to be applauded, those who feel called to do so need to follow that call and we need to celebrate their commitment, no argument there. My feeling is that this person is saying that there are other parts of the body for which we have no need. The attitude reflected is sinful, our call is to follow, not to criticize others who may hear a different call. I can't help but to think that someone who is following will be excited about what they are doing, I don't see how cynicism fits in.

I'm not interested in casting my lot with the folks who pine for protracted revivals and going door to door with the four spiritual laws. Also, I'm well aware that it doesn't have to be one or the other - in fact, the two work together nicely. Still, that's not what I'm hearing. I don't hear people saying, "We need to show compassion on the poor so we can influence them for Christ" - all I hear is, "Jesus was compassionate toward outsiders and we're not good disciples of his unless we are too."

Amen!

So, are "gospel wars" going to dominate the denomination for the next 20 years or so as "worship wars" dominated it for the past 20?

The worship wars are finally over? Kewl!

Lets hope that the gospel wars never gain traction, we don't need another war. Sadly I do know some folks who have become casualties already.

[G R 'Scott' Cundiff]

Those liberals. They just want social justice and love, there's no place for Jesus in their lives.

Those conservatives. They just want hellfire and self righteousness, and they cheered for the death penalty and people dying without health care during the Republican debates in 2011. I can't see Jesus in them at all.

Todd I think you are right on with this and that you advance my post.

If "social gospel folks" set themselves up as superior - taking pot shots at those they think don't measure up while at the same time "salvation gospel" folks do the same the result is "gospel wars."

If they listen to one another, appreciate and encourage one another...recognizing that those in the body of Christ are gifted and empowered in varying ways - then, we have a balanced Church that as the body of Christ ministers to the whole person.

And no gospel wars.

[Mike Schutz]

A couple of random thoughts:

1. There have been times in the history of the church when we have forgotten the message of the Incarnation, and believed that the body is of no importance. At worst this has led to unspeakable evil in the name of "saving the soul," and at best a neglect which is contrary to the message of Christ.
2. In a typical congregation, putting feet to a concern for the "survival of the weakest" will seldom involve every or even most members, and this is to be expected. We do not expect every member of the church to be personally and behaviorally involved in youth ministry, for example. What should be expected is prayer support, encouragement, and allocation and prioritization of resources. For example, in a community with which I am familiar, nine churches have joined together to provide some food and clothing to those in need. A few people from each congregation volunteer, every congregation allocates financial resources and encourages donations, and one congregation provides physical facilities and administrative leadership. Those churches are making a major difference, yet only a small percentage from each congregation are "hands on."
3.There are a few congregations in this community - led by their pastors - who see no need for their church to be involved, as they believe it is not the responsibility of the church to waste its time on physical rather than spiritual needs. Two of these pastors are not just not involved, but are publicly critical, stating that by helping provide physical needs we are "putting band-aids on cancer" and "enabling bad decision making" on those who are hurting.

[Bob Hunter]

A couple of random thoughts:


3.There are a few congregations in this community - led by their pastors - who see no need for their church to be involved, as they believe it is not the responsibility of the church to waste its time on physical rather than spiritual needs. Two of these pastors are not just not involved, but are publicly critical, stating that by helping provide physical needs we are "putting band-aids on cancer" and "enabling bad decision making" on those who are hurting.

Absolutely disgusting. But then, there is always that chance they will at some point find themselves on the receiving end of mercy and that changes everything.

[Susan Unger]

Living in PA, I can't help but run through the list of possible churches this person is talking about

I have been in a similar circumstance. It is one reason why I can't bear the news. I'd hear on the political talk shows that universal health care for all regardless of whether or not the person can afford it is oh, so, evil....then talk with people in my area and in my church who couldn't afford it...because they were so sick, and, unable to get well, they were unable to do well at a job and thus remained poor. It was an unending cycle. That is just so wrong.

[Sarah Smith]

One thing about reading Wesleyan history, which I am currently doing, is that you wind up sometimes thinking we Wesleyans need to be more Wesleyan.

His ministry to the poor was pretty advanced. Did he preach the gospel, as in revival style and about avoiding hell and making heaven?

Yes, he did.

Did he advocate Christians reaching out to help the poor?

Yes, he did.

BUT it wasn't a give away program so much as it was an accountability program.

You see, no matter your station, the adage to "earn all you can, save all you can, and give all you can" applied to everyone--including the poor who got saved.

That might go a long ways today. No excuses to fritter away wealth on lattes, but also no excuses when you won't even try to lift yourself out of poverty.

Maybe Todd (I think it was) has something.

Maybe we need it all--gospel ministry of salvation, of sanctification, of deeds of charity, etc.

For all. Not just for the rich, or the poor, or the in betweens. All of us.

[Billy Cox]

Do you think our denomination is going to transition from "worship wars" over music styles, etc. to "gospel wars" in which we have a tug of war over "social gospel" versus "salvation gospel"? It seems I hear more complaints these days that the denomination doesn't do enough to minister to the poor, the outsider, etc. and less about lack of evangelism. I'm not trying to set up an adviserial situation here - just noting that "we don't do enough for the poor" seems to be cropping up more often than it used to.

I'm not interested in casting my lot with the folks who pine for protracted revivals and going door to door with the four spiritual laws. Also, I'm well aware that it doesn't have to be one or the other - in fact, the two work together nicely. Still, that's not what I'm hearing. I don't hear people saying, "We need to show compassion on the poor so we can influence them for Christ" - all I hear is, "Jesus was compassionate toward outsiders and we're not good disciples of his unless we are too."

So, are "gospel wars" going to dominate the denomination for the next 20 years or so as "worship wars" dominated it for the past 20?

Given that there is almost always a group of people who think 'we' should be doing more of 'x', and an opposing group who thinks that 'what we have always done' is sufficient, we'll always be fighting about something.

However, I can't imagine that we will go to war over helping the poor. People don't typically go to war for the pursuit of less power and diminished social standing. Those who care about the poor will simply leave or be driven out.

[Sarah Smith]

I don't think we will leave or be driven out for caring for the poor.

I DO see the CotN as a whole doing A LOT for the poor.

Rather, I would think those that think the ONLY or MAIN mission of the church is easing poverty might leave. I can't see that being the only or main mission of the CotN, which was basically founded by poor people, for poor people, and led by a whole mess of poor people through the years.

I think we need more words than just "poor", also.

Some of us fall into that definition but feel we are comfortable.

Some of us got there by deliberate choice, such as my mennonite friends who live at the economic level of those they serve, or others of us that felt following the rising job ladder was not God's will or in our best interests.

Some of us got there by illness, physical or mental.

Some of us got there by lack of opportunity.

And yes, some of us got there by laziness or sin or stinking thinking or by passing on answering the door when opportunity knocked.

Just as there is no one size fits all cause of poverty, there is no one size fits all solution.

Which means there is no one size fits all answer as to what the church should be doing.

We need to do all we can to encourage a good work ethic, help people get educated, help the ill, help make sure everyone has opportunity, and kick the lazy in the seat of the pants metaphorically speaking.

[Billy Cox]

Just as there is no one size fits all cause of poverty, there is no one size fits all solution.

Which means there is no one size fits all answer as to what the church should be doing.

We need to do all we can to encourage a good work ethic, help people get educated, help the ill, help make sure everyone has opportunity, and kick the lazy in the seat of the pants metaphorically speaking.

What should the church do with people who are utterly unable and/or unwilling to benefit from anything beyond immediate food/shelter needs?

[Sarah Smith]

Billy, if they are unwilling then a bit of tough love might be in order.

Like the lady years ago without food in her house for her kids. Our garden was producing well and I had most of our winter food put by. She was coming to my house anyway, so I offered that we would both go out in the garden and pick her several grocery bags full. She told me no, that would make her miss her soap operas. I invited the kids over for meals and let her get hungry.

Now, if they are unable to benefit from more than basic food and shelter needs, we have a strong social services network in town--some govt, some private. Every church that I know of has a plan in place to get folks the help they need.

We do have some that simply do not want the help available because it comes with strings: no drinking or drugging, take your meds, get clean so as not to spread lice or bedbugs, etc.

At that point the churches, like society, have to let them live with their choices if they are capable of making them, and as far as the law allows some can be forced into a safe environment on psych holds at least temporarily.

But here in the USA, there are safety nets. Not perfect. Not everyone gets the help they need. But there is a large variety of help in our town. We have no homeless shelter but do have arrangements where we can get people into more stable shelter. We have the usual medicare/medicaid for the elderly and truly poor. For those with no insurance or underinsured the churches run a clinic that is sliding scale from free to very modest payment, and most meds are free there. As to food there is the usual govt food stamp program, commodities if you qualify, reduced and free lunches and breakfasts for kids that qualify, and then the churches have food pantries, a soup kitchen, and many of us participate to offer a community garden with aid and scholarships for seeds, etc so folks can help themselves with food. One church offers canning classes/equipment. One offers money management. Another offers some housing to families in need of better shelter than govt provides.

There is the usual LiHeap program through the govt for utility help. A local gas exploration and production company helps some of the poor with utility bills. Churches kick in and help some folks. Many of us heat with wood to economize, and neighbors bring us firewood. Don't think we have to cut a bit this year so many people have brought us wood for next year. One dear poverty level immigrant with almost no English brings cut firewood to my door on cold days, makes the sign of the cross and says "brother, sister" pointing to his chest and then to me.

Some of us offer free day care to working parents so they can afford to work.

Some of us tutor kids so maybe the cycle of poor education will be broken.

Some of us hold the survivors and weep with them when gang troubles break out.

I'm really at a loss as to how "Christians" and "the church" should be doing more.

So to answer your question, govt programs take care of the utterly unable to benefit from help group.

And the utterly unwilling need that swift kick in the seat of the pants. Since we cannot do that, we have to offer help but refuse to enable.

Which may mean letting folks get pretty cold, tired, and hungry so as to be willing to be helped.

[Paul DeBaufer]

the churches run a clinic that is sliding scale from free to very modest payment, and most meds are free there

This is amazing. If more churches would get together and do this and many other of the things you talk about the world would truly be a better place and we wouldn't have to look to the government to provide these services.

[Steven Burton]

I think many should look at Maslow's Hierarchy of needs when they come to deal with those less or more fortunate than themselves.

[Jim Chabot]

However, I can't imagine that we will go to war over helping the poor. People don't typically go to war for the pursuit of less power and diminished social standing. Those who care about the poor will simply leave or be driven out.

Why I'm shocked Billy. Unbelievable that you have not yet encountered passive aggressive behavioral traits in people. The blog post referenced in the opening post on this thread is a classic example.

[Billy Cox]

Why I'm shocked Billy. Unbelievable that you have not yet encountered passive aggressive behavioral traits in people. The blog post referenced in the opening post on this thread is a classic example.

I understand firsthand where passive-aggressive behavior comes from. I compare it to popping bubble wrap. It is satisfying to the person doing it and delivers nothing of lasting value to anybody.

With regard to the original blog post, I also understand where that comes from. When one encounters a group of people who scurry around majoring on the minors, it's easy to point out their pointless activity and be accurate in doing so...but it can easily morph into self-righteousness.

[Sarah Smith]

One thing our community has going for it is size. We aren't very big.

That means we can use a fair amount of discernment. If the screener at the clinic knows full well you are well paid at your job and have the opportunity to get good insurance through your employer, the screener can send you packing. No freebies just because you want to cheat and avoid a co-pay.

We don't do a homeless shelter for a reason. Of locals there are very few in that need, and they need more than a shelter can provide. But we are very scenic and used to get destination homeless--folks that do not want a change of lifestyle, just a change of scenery. No way to meaningfully help them, so we don't use up resources trying.

Being smaller we have a better shot of knowing who can't work, who won't work, and who can and wants to but can't find it. Help is taylored accordingly.

Those of you in large cities: would this work on a neighborhood basis or not?

[Dan Henderson]

One thing our community has going for it is size. We aren't very big.

That means we can use a fair amount of discernment. If the screener at the clinic knows full well you are well paid at your job and have the opportunity to get good insurance through your employer, the screener can send you packing. No freebies just because you want to cheat and avoid a co-pay.

We don't do a homeless shelter for a reason. Of locals there are very few in that need, and they need more than a shelter can provide. But we are very scenic and used to get destination homeless--folks that do not want a change of lifestyle, just a change of scenery. No way to meaningfully help them, so we don't use up resources trying.

Being smaller we have a better shot of knowing who can't work, who won't work, and who can and wants to but can't find it. Help is taylored accordingly.

Those of you in large cities: would this work on a neighborhood basis or not?

It requires using judgement. In order to help people who are truly in need, I think that it is necessary to allow for the possibility of being taken advantage of. I'm a pretty good judge, but I can be fooled. I would rather help 3 that don't need help in order to get to the one that really does. For me, to not allow for the chance of being taken would mean not helping anybody.

My sister recently tried to help someone by buying groceries. This lady was upset because she had a medical condition that she could only eat steak, and prime cuts at that. All those veggies and staples, hamburger and milk bu sister bought this lady were not appreciated or wanted. This lady is also "disabled"

When I leave the Air Force, I expect my service connected disabilities to be at least 70% (I'm already at 50% and still on active duty with waivers). You can bet, that I will be out there working full-time somewhere. Guess what folks. The news doesn't tell you that at the end of each month ~2M jobs remain unfilled. Why, not the right kind of job? Doesn't pay $80k for my non-existent skill sets? It requires that I actually show up for work?

I know there are people who actually can't work and I believe we should take care of them. I am annoyed, however that the disabled parking spots at Wal-Mart out number the regular parking spots (exagerating). I really get tired of seeing people park there and then run into the store. Every time I see a fat person on a hover-round, I think get up off your *** and walk it off. Ironic since I know a number of people with medical conditions that render them incapable of controlling their weight. And even more ironic, none of them use hover-rounds or disability parking stickers. Hmmm...

[Bob Hunter]

I know there are people who actually can't work and I believe we should take care of them. I am annoyed, however that the disabled parking spots at Wal-Mart out number the regular parking spots (exagerating). I really get tired of seeing people park there and then run into the store. Every time I see a fat person on a hover-round, I think get up off your *** and walk it off. Ironic since I know a number of people with medical conditions that render them incapable of controlling their weight. And even more ironic, none of them use hover-rounds or disability parking stickers. Hmmm...

I read this to my daughter and she said it sounded like family member "X" who is slightly unsympathetic and former military. Hmmmmmm

[Dan Henderson]

I read this to my daughter and she said it sounded like family member "X" who is slightly unsympathetic and former military. Hmmmmmm

That is a fair assessment and probably accurate. If you whine and quibble with us military we tend to laugh AND point. We got bi-lateral amputees fighting to stay on jump status (that's something I won't do with two good legs). I'll accept that, I told a teen on a church outing that had "broken a finger" to get over it. He may or may not have broken his finger but I had the rest of the sponsors ROTFL. They told me later that he was a habitual whiner.

[Dan Henderson]

Bob, I'm gonna get me a doctors note that says I can only eat steak ...