How do we live in a gay world?

[Dennis Bratcher]

I was recently asked by a former student to respond to this:

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/0...ity/?hpt=hp_c1

I thought some here might be interested in my response. It is not comprehensive and does not address all the issues. It is only a personal reflection that is open to rethinking (I don't need all the arguments rehashed; I've already heard them).

I think it is the typical rationalization without much attention to what Scripture says or means. While the biblical stance against homosexuality is not quite as strong as some would like it to be, it cannot really be rationalized away either by appeal to word meanings, cultural changes, social awareness, or by challenging simplistic proof texts. I think it is a classic case of beginning with a conclusion and then interpreting Scripture toward that conclusion.

On the one hand, I think we, especially evangelical Christians, have probably made far too big an issue out of this to the point of becoming unloving and violating the acceptance of people as people, where they are, that Jesus taught and modeled. On the other hand, I am tired of hearing people with genuine and honestly held positions against homosexuality and gay marriage labeled bigots for holding such a position. Both sides need to chill.

I understand some of the medical and psychological evidence of gender confusion or even biological and genetic evidence related to gender identity. But then to argue that it is "normal" and therefore acceptable is a big step in logic. Not everything that is "normal" is inherantly a good thing and therefore acceptable. It is also "normal" for most people to be biologically hard wired to be promiscuous, but we acknowledge that for the sake of society and relationships, that normal condition needs to be controlled and modified. When it is not, it becomes destructive. Most of the other arguments in favor of homosexuality, like some of those presented here, tend to be very selective, sometimes distorted, and in many cases will not stand up to sound logic.

Bottom line for me (and it is a personal position): I am called to love other people with the love of Christ. I am not called to judge people for where they are in their life journey. That is God's responsibility. I think an active homosexual lifestyle is wrong and destructive, like so many other things against which Scripture warns. Yet, it is not our job as Christians to condemn others but rather to model Christlikeness for them, to live as people of God loving others as God has first loved us.

I know and have worked with several gay and lesbian persons and couples. All of them are decent people, and I have tried hard to treat them with equal respect. I doubt if it would help them in a relationship with God if I were to rail against them for their lifestyle. If they would ask, I would openly talk with them about it (and risk being labeled a bigot). Until then, the best witness to God I can offer them is to model for them the love of Christ by how I treat them (Matt 7:12).

Grace and Peace,

Dennis B.

Dennis Bratcher
Executive Director, CRI/Voice, Institute
http://www.crivoice.org/
http://www.cresourcei.org/

[Doug Ward]

Basic, middle-of-the-road, and a good and fitting response. Thanks.

[Bob Hunter]

I just ran across this video featuring Tim Keller. Keller is a reformed guy and has pastored very successfully in N.Y. I would be interested in your comments.

[David Graham]

I just ran across this video featuring Tim Keller. Keller is a reformed guy and has pastored very successfully in N.Y. I would be interested in your comments.

Thanks Bob, I appreciated his stance on what sends people to hell and what doesn't. Hence, Homosexuality, Greed, Adultery and so on, are all individual sins but underlying them is the greater sin of serving self/rejecting God etc. Thus, no one classification of sin is better or worse than another...... however...........

Even though the whole human race irrespective of their individual failings and sins have a Saviour in Jesus Christ, God has not called us to live in sin.

Paul's question in Romans still resounds to us today: "Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?"
Tim Keller's Reformed theology locks him into a way of live that has no option but to accept sinning as an inevitable outcome, hence people may continue to live in a sinful lifestyle and still maintain that they are on a journey to heaven with their Saviour Jesus Christ who while not approving of the sins, helps them on the way. And while this is true to a point (for our salvation is based primarily upon grace apart from works), the process of sanctification is supposed to enable us to live victoriously over sin as we are gradually transformed into the image of Christ. Mere contntment with a sinful way of life is IMHO either a recipe for spiritual disaster or a way that is far short of God's best plan for us.

We need to continually look to Jesus as our model of Godly living and not to our oun flawed human perceptions of what we as individuals may be capable of achieving. i.e. We need to lift our sights if we really want to please God.

[Stu Weber]

Mere contntment with a sinful way of life is IMHO either a recipe for spiritual disaster or a way that is far short of God's best plan for us.

I suspect Keller may agree with you that contentment with a sinful way of life is a recipe for disaster. Here's a quote from an interview a few years ago.

I believe the classical Reformed view—that on the one hand, sanctification is not by ‘works’ but by a continuous re-orienting ourselves to our justification. So sanctification is not moralistic. Yet it takes enormous effort (so it is not quietistic.) When we feed on, remember, and live in accordance with our justification, it mortifies our idols and fills us with an inner joy and desire to please and resemble our Lord through obedience. But the feeding on, remembering, and living in accordance—takes all our effort.

[Marian Schwaller Carney]

"I believe the classical Reformed view—that on the one hand, sanctification is not by ‘works’ but by a continuous re-orienting ourselves to our justification. So sanctification is not moralistic. Yet it takes enormous effort (so it is not quietistic.) When we feed on, remember, and live in accordance with our justification, it mortifies our idols and fills us with an inner joy and desire to please and resemble our Lord through obedience. But the feeding on, remembering, and living in accordance—takes all our effort. "

Boy, I read that and my first response, is what a lot of fancy words to put together in one thought. I'm not real clear on what he is saying. "Quietistic" - I see this word ever now and then, why not just "quiet" or"quietly"? Does he agree with Wesleyan holiness, then?

[Wilson Deaton]

"Quietistic" - I see this word ever now and then, why not just "quiet" or"quietly"?

Quietistic isn't used simply as a form of "quiet" or "quietly." It refers to philosophical school of thought known as "quietism."

Wilson

[Marian Schwaller Carney]

Thank you, Wilson. Further reading for me to do. Still, I am learning to express things, that appear to be for public consumption, more simply these days. Ironically, according to Wikipedia, quietism has a lot to do with the use of words. And words use - semantics and analysis of words and their meanings - is key in the discussion about homosexuality in our culture.

[Hans Deventer]

Marian, check the troubles that John Wesley had with the Moravians around 1740 and you will find that this is at the heart of it. Comes down to a total rejection of anything but sheer faith, defined as mental assent. It's obvious why Wesley would not go along with that.

[Paul DeBaufer]

Marian, I've read the Wiki article on Quietism, but also found this one of Christian Quietism, a heresy. It seems likely that this is the form that Keller is speaking of.

[Dennis Bratcher]

I just ran across this video featuring Tim Keller. Keller is a reformed guy and has pastored very successfully in N.Y. I would be interested in your comments.

Apologies for this being a long post, but it is a complicated issue within Nazarenedom.

I would strongly agree with his basic premise, that "sin," defined as sinful acts, is not what sends people to hell. I have said the same thing many times across the years, especially in the context of a rather moralistic version of the holiness movement in which I grew up. The only "sin" that separates us from God is our own rejection of God and his Lordship over our lives. I would talk about that in different terms than Keller; I would not say it is just "self-righteousness" or trying to save ourselves. That is a little too cerebral and too passive for me. I think the sin that separates us from God is the final practice of self-centeredness, in which in some particular way (or many ways) we very actively place our own wants, desire, and interests above God. The danger is that such attitudes and acts can take many forms. Keller hinted at that when he pointed out the difference between adultery (something quite obvious) and greed (something far more attitudinal and personal, yet comes out in actions). Jesus made the same point in the Sermon on the Mount.

That simply means that most anything in our lives can become an occasion for rejecting God. God is patient and by his grace constantly calls us to move beyond our self-centeredness, to truly love God and out of that to love others. But if we continue to resist God's call to move beyond where we are, we can finally place a seemingly innocuous action (greed, gossip, arrogance, self-righteousness, bigotry, being judgmental, yelling at other drivers in traffic, etc.) compared to the "big" sins (murder, theft, adultery, etc.) ahead of God. In doing so, by our actions, not the specific committing of a specific sin but by the continued willful rejection of God's Lordship over our lives, we say "no" to God. That is the sin that separates us from God.

Here is where our definitions of sin become important and the concept of growth in grace is crucial. Without taking the time to detail it all, two issues are important. First, Christians sin. Not every day in word thought and deed. And not inevitably in terms of willfully disobeying God. But Christians are not perfect at any stage, and are considerably less so at the beginning of their Christian journey. (One of the biggest mistakes of the holiness movement was equating an instantaneous commitment and experience with perfection of action and attitude.)

We make mistakes. We do things that cause hurt and harm to others. We do things that we know are not the best thing to do. Sometimes we do things knowing it is not within God's purpose. We do not always do what we should do or could do. But sin does not directly equal hell. That is the nature of grace (the theological message of the Noah story). But we must deal with our failures. This is why confessional prayers are so crucial to healthy spiritual growth, if we understand "sin" as those things we do that are not pleasing to God rather than the "sin" that separates us from God:

Merciful God, we confess to you now that we have sinned. We confess the sins that no one knows and the sins that everyone knows. We confess the sins that are a burden to us and the sins that do not bother us because we have grown used to them. We confess our sins as a church. We have not loved one another as Christ loved us. We have not forgiven one another as we have been forgiven. We have not given ourselves in love and service for the world as Christ gave himself for us.

Father, forgive us. Send the Holy Spirit to us, that he may give us power to live as by your mercy, you have called us to live. Through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen. [A Presbyterian prayer]

Second, as David said so well, sin cannot be the "norm" for Christians. I thoroughly reject the notion that Christians sin every day in word, thought, and deed. That confuses what sin is. And I reject the notion that relationship with God does not change who we are, that salvation is only a legal transaction that pardons our continual sinning while leaving us the same. I am firmly convinced that relationship with God is transformational, which is why Paul uses the metaphor of "new creation."

If we take growth in grace seriously, two things emerge. First, people are at different stages of spiritual growth no matter how many crises they have had. Some Christians do things and practice things that other people do not, and cannot. We can legitimately call some of these sinful without consigning people to hell for it (recall, I labeled actions by some here on NazNet as sinful, without suggesting they are going to hell).

Second, the idea of growth implies that we are not what we used to be and yet are not what we will be. That calls for a huge dose of humility in how we relate to others (of course, we all always assume that we are much further along the road to spiritual maturity than we really are!). I recall something about specks and beams.

Finally, I agree with Keller, as I said in the original post, that our task is to treat people with the love of Christ, and with personal respect, no matter where they are. It is not my task to change people. It is my task to bear witness to them of One who loves them unconditionally, and who can change them. For that I need God's help. No wonder the disciples needed Pentecost!

Grace and Peace,

Dennis B.

[Larry Parsons]

Since we are talking about homosexuality I have a question. Let say you have a couple homosexual who have started coming to your church and they may not even be partners. Both become born again Christians one is delivered from homosexuality and the other is still struggle with it. Even practicing it but hate when he does it. Here the question! What would tell the person who is in this situation as Nazarene pastor? I know what I would say but I want to here from you.
Thanks
Larry

[David Graham]

Since we are talking about homosexuality I have a question. Let say you have a couple homosexual who have started coming to your church and they may not even be partners. Both become born again Christians one is delivered from homosexuality and the other is still struggle with it. Even practicing it but hate when he does it. Here the question! What would tell the person who is in this situation as Nazarene pastor? I know what I would say but I want to here from you.
Thanks
Larry

I would say to him/her: "Brother/sister, I/We love you! Hang in there; don't give up; we (i.e. the church) and you are going to walk this journey together and find constructive ways of helping each other to grow in our faith (you in yours, we in ours). In our growing relationship with God and one another we can all be victorious over sin! (Thanks be to God!)

BTW, that's the same thing I would say to any christian who was struggling with any sin/temptation.

[Dennis Bratcher]

Since we are talking about homosexuality I have a question. Let say you have a couple homosexual who have started coming to your church and they may not even be partners. Both become born again Christians one is delivered from homosexuality and the other is still struggle with it. Even practicing it but hate when he does it. Here the question! What would tell the person who is in this situation as Nazarene pastor? I know what I would say but I want to here from you.
Thanks
Larry

How would you answer it differently if it were this?

Let say you have a couple [who have a bad habit of profanity] who have started coming to your church. Both become born again Christians one is delivered from [using profanity] and the other is still struggle with it. Even practicing it but hate when he does it. Here the question! What would tell the person who is in this situation as Nazarene pastor?

You see, the question really is, "How does any pastor deal with people who are struggling with any destructive issue in their life?" It can be tobacco use, alcohol, addiction to e-bay, gossip, jealously, anger, contentiousness, unhealthy eating habits, whatever (as I said before, the issue does not have to be on our own personal list of "big" sins to risk separating us from God).

How any particular pastor answers that question depends on how they conceptualize the role of a pastor and how they view God's role in the transformation of people by grace. For me, it also depends on the person with whom the pastor is dealing, where they are in their spiritual journey, and what other issues in their life might be a factor (life is complicated; not everything in a person's life can get "fixed" at once).

Generally speaking, I would encourage then to submit all of their lives to God, reminding them that God will not give up on them even in the midst of their failures. I would operate first with the principles of the baptismal liturgy:

With God’s help we will proclaim the good news and live according to the example of Christ. We will surround these persons with a community of love and forgiveness, that they may grow in their trust of God, and be found faithful in their service to others. We will pray for them, that they may be true disciples who walk in the way that leads to life. [UMC]

And then, in one-on-one contexts as the opportunity arises and as God leads both them and me, I would assist them in working through whatever issues are hindering their spiritual growth by both honest dialog and encouragement, at the same time trusting God to work with them in transformational ways as they are willing. If they are not willing to do any of that, there is not much that any pastor can do. If they are willing, they will grow. But only as God works. They do not have to follow my schedule for their growth, indeed they cannot so usually don't.

Grace and Peace,

Dennis B.

[Dan Henderson]

Since we don't live in a gay world (at least in the US), the original question is moot. The most liberal estimates put the self-proclaimed GLBTQ population in the US at around 4%.

I do, however, like our pastor's points this Sunday when he preached on this topic.
1. To be a follower of Jesus is to be a friend of sinners
2. We must know exactly what we believe about this topic
3. The Bible is clear on this subject, homo-erotic behavior is not compatible with Christian living.

[Bob Hunter]

3. The Bible is clear on this subject, homo-erotic behavior is not compatible with Christian living.

This might need some explanation.

[George Wallace]

This might need some explanation.

Only if you are exegetically dyslexic

[Dan Henderson]

This might need some explanation.

The actual summary quote is: "Homo-erotic behavior is in contrast to God's will and purpose for His creation."

[Dennis Bratcher]

Since we don't live in a gay world (at least in the US), the original question is moot. The most liberal estimates put the self-proclaimed GLBTQ population in the US at around 4%.

This would be relevant only if the issue were defined by the percentage of the population that is homosexual. It is not. It is defined by the shifting attitudes of society in general toward homosexuality. By most research (including PEW), between 49% and 54% of Americans approve of homosexuality (a significant majority still oppose gay marriage). The percentage is far higher in Canada (70%) and most European countries.

That means that Christians in the USA, Canada, and Europe live in social contexts that generally approve or do not condemn homosexuality. So, the question is far from moot.

Grace and Peace,

Dennis B.

[Dan Henderson]

This would be relevant only if the issue were defined by the percentage of the population that is homosexual. It is not. It is defined by the shifting attitudes of society in general toward homosexuality. By most research (including PEW), between 49% and 54% of Americans approve of homosexuality (a significant majority still oppose gay marriage). The percentage is far higher in Canada (70%) and most European countries.

That means that Christians in the USA, Canada, and Europe live in social contexts that generally approve or do not condemn homosexuality. So, the question is far from moot.

Grace and Peace,

Dennis B.

This is the article you started the thread with: My Take: What the Bible really says about homosexuality. Since you were asked to respond on an article that talks about what the Bible says about homosexuality, the question of what society thinks of the issue is irrelevant to the question. We, as Christians, do not have an obligation to agree with the latest Pew poll. Nor is the Title of the thread accurate by any stretch of the imagination. We do not live in a gay world, we live in a sinful world in which homosexual behavior is only one of an infinite number to rebel against God. I have stated before I don't view this sin as any different from any other. Nor do I give gay's special dispensation as people with a special struggle. Its no different from any other form of rebellion and they are no different from the rest of us, they have chust chosen a different way than me of expressing sovereignty of self.

[Todd Erickson]

Actually, the church generally frowns on erotic behavior of any kind, or at least behaves that way. Homo or otherwise.

Really, we're all much better off hiding who we are in our closets and bedrooms, and living a fascade in public and in church. Then nobody will ever have to worry, and we can all maintain the illusions that make polite society possible.

And anybody who is unhappy with that can just [CENSORED], and then go to hell, where they were probably going anyway. Problem solved.

[Dan Henderson]

Actually, the church generally frowns on erotic behavior of any kind, or at least behaves that way. Homo or otherwise.

I had meant to also mention that among sexual perversions (sexual ways to rebel against God) that GLBTQ community have only invented a small portion of that list of sins.

[Benjamin Burch]

Its no different from any other form of rebellion and they are no different from the rest of us, they have chust chosen a different way than me of expressing sovereignty of self.

I see what you did there...

[Dale Cozby]

This would be relevant only if the issue were defined by the percentage of the population that is homosexual. It is not. It is defined by the shifting attitudes of society in general toward homosexuality. By most research (including PEW), between 49% and 54% of Americans approve of homosexuality (a significant majority still oppose gay marriage). The percentage is far higher in Canada (70%) and most European countries.

That means that Christians in the USA, Canada, and Europe live in social contexts that generally approve or do not condemn homosexuality. So, the question is far from moot.

Grace and Peace,

Dennis B.

I will make a prophecy here that in days to come, homophobia(the idea that it is evil/sinful/bad) will be considered a pathology brought on by too much exposure to fundamental ideas about scripture, religion and "abusive or coercive" parental upbringing requiring deprogramming. People with such pathologies will be rejected for employment, or required to seek help and overcome thier phobias and embrace the world. Oh wait a minute that is already happening.

"They think it strange that you do not plunge with them into the same flood of dissipation, and they heap abuse on you. " 1 Peter 4:4(NIV 1984)

[Dale Cozby]

I have stated before I don't view this sin as any different from any other. Nor do I give gay's special dispensation as people with a special struggle. Its no different from any other form of rebellion and they are no different from the rest of us, they have chust chosen a different way than me of expressing sovereignty of self.

Dan do you view white lies to not get in trouble with your parents as the same as murder? Is gossiping then equal(no different) to drunken debauchery? Is the sin of omission(not helping the beggar) equal to robbing the beggar?

How do you measure the weight of sin and what your response to each should be? Should we embrace all sinners in fellowship in spite of thier ongoing sins? Are any worthy of excommunication?
How do we best address all these sins that are no different from one another? Can we love the pedophile as equally as the white liar? How should our response be the same to both and how should it be different?

I await your reply.

[Larry Parsons]

How would you answer it differently if it were this?

Let say you have a couple [who have a bad habit of profanity] who have started coming to your church. Both become born again Christians one is delivered from [using profanity] and the other is still struggle with it. Even practicing it but hate when he does it. Here the question! What would tell the person who is in this situation as Nazarene pastor?

You see, the question really is, "How does any pastor deal with people who are struggling with any destructive issue in their life?" It can be tobacco use, alcohol, addiction to e-bay, gossip, jealously, anger, contentiousness, unhealthy eating habits, whatever (as I said before, the issue does not have to be on our own personal list of "big" sins to risk separating us from God).

How any particular pastor answers that question depends on how they conceptualize the role of a pastor and how they view God's role in the transformation of people by grace. For me, it also depends on the person with whom the pastor is dealing, where they are in their spiritual journey, and what other issues in their life might be a factor (life is complicated; not everything in a person's life can get "fixed" at once).

Generally speaking, I would encourage then to submit all of their lives to God, reminding them that God will not give up on them even in the midst of their failures. I would operate first with the principles of the baptismal liturgy:

With God’s help we will proclaim the good news and live according to the example of Christ. We will surround these persons with a community of love and forgiveness, that they may grow in their trust of God, and be found faithful in their service to others. We will pray for them, that they may be true disciples who walk in the way that leads to life. [UMC]

And then, in one-on-one contexts as the opportunity arises and as God leads both them and me, I would assist them in working through whatever issues are hindering their spiritual growth by both honest dialog and encouragement, at the same time trusting God to work with them in transformational ways as they are willing. If they are not willing to do any of that, there is not much that any pastor can do. If they are willing, they will grow. But only as God works. They do not have to follow my schedule for their growth, indeed they cannot so usually don't.

Grace and Peace,

Dennis B.

Dennis, thanks again for the post, I remember pastoring this small nazarene church that had only 4-5 member my wife and I was include in that membership the rest was non-nazarene that stared coming after we got there. And many of them were struggling with sins that they couldn't over come. Some did like one young who was struggling with smoking and one day while smoking he was reading the book "What would Jesus do?" At that very moment he stop He was in Calif at that time he call and ask if we would take him as member we took him by phone. Today he is pastoring a Nazarene church. We had people who were struggle with drugs and alcohol. Here what I told them from the pulpit and when I was with them out side church. God know your heart and he know what you want. I would remind them If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us and to clease us from all unrighteous. Because of struggle that we may have against sins we may have to live a life of sinning and repenting. I think we have some Nazarene pastor that can do some pretty stupid thing Just recently a Nazarene church recieve a new pastor and for three service straight he preach agaisnt tobacco guess what happen many of the tobacco uses left the church. Some of these people won't return as long as he is there. God know our heart and our attitude we don't need to be driven away church.
Thanks
Larry

[Dan Henderson]

Dan do you view white lies to not get in trouble with your parents as the same as murder? Is gossiping then equal(no different) to drunken debauchery? Is the sin of omission(not helping the beggar) equal to robbing the beggar?

How do you measure the weight of sin and what your response to each should be? Should we embrace all sinners in fellowship in spite of thier ongoing sins? Are any worthy of excommunication?
How do we best address all these sins that are no different from one another? Can we love the pedophile as equally as the white liar? How should our response be the same to both and how should it be different?

I await your reply.

I don't measure the weight of sin, not my job. There are no white lies, there are just lies. A child lying to a parent is rebellion (which is most likely because they had already rebelled by disobeying their parents). It does not matter how I view the difference between gossip and murder. The question you are asking is more appropriate to law and order versus love and reconciliation. Where both gossip and murder are sins, gossip does not have to be contained in the same way as murder, from a law and order perspective.

Love the pedophile, yes, let them teach 3d grade SS, no.

For "on-going" sins you would probably have to excomunicate everyone which is a non-starter. The church, however, would have to deal with open rebellion. That would be people who claim that their sins are compatable with with a Christian walk would have to be dealt with in this or some similar manner, especially if they are in leadership positions.

[Todd Erickson]

I will make a prophecy here that in days to come, homophobia(the idea that it is evil/sinful/bad) will be considered a pathology brought on by too much exposure to fundamental ideas about scripture, religion and "abusive or coercive" parental upbringing requiring deprogramming. People with such pathologies will be rejected for employment, or required to seek help and overcome thier phobias and embrace the world. Oh wait a minute that is already happening.

"They think it strange that you do not plunge with them into the same flood of dissipation, and they heap abuse on you. " 1 Peter 4:4(NIV 1984)

Because, certainly, the world will hate us because of how we judged them and found them wanting...not because, in the character of Christ, we came in Love.

it's the church that hates that.

[Dale Cozby]

Because, certainly, the world will hate us because of how we judged them and found them wanting...not because, in the character of Christ, we came in Love.

it's the church that hates that.

“If the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you.", "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.""If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you." - Jesus

"But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them —bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2 Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3 In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping...if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; 6 if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7 and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the depraved conduct of the lawless 8 (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— 9 if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment. 10 This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the flesh and despise authority.." - Peter

You are probably boiling with anger and maybe feeling some hatred for me right about now for my scripture quoting. I am certainly a candidate for reeducation into the new enlightenment of the coming Utopia but it won't stick so i may have to be put down like a dog. It certainly doesn't take much to get hated by the world. Jesus got hated for calling sinners to repent, sinners who had authority to dictate what was right and wrong for the people. He didn't get hated for healing or feeding or raising the dead. He got killed for defying the corrupted authority of a sinful and wicked generation.

[Hans Deventer]

You are probably boiling with anger and maybe feeling some hatred for me right about now for my scripture quoting. I am certainly a candidate for reeducation into the new enlightenment of the coming Utopia but it won't stick so i may have to be put down like a dog. It certainly doesn't take much to get hated by the world. Jesus got hated for calling sinners to repent, sinners who had authority to dictate what was right and wrong for the people. He didn't get hated for healing or feeding or raising the dead. He got killed for defying the corrupted authority of a sinful and wicked generation.

I'm not Todd, but I wouldn't be boiling. Simply seeing you don't get it. And amazed at how it is possible at all. And sorry for it being the case.

[Paul DeBaufer]

“If the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you.", "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.""If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you." - Jesus

"But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them —bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2 Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3 In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping...if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; 6 if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7 and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the depraved conduct of the lawless 8 (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— 9 if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment. 10 This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the flesh and despise authority.." - Peter

You are probably boiling with anger and maybe feeling some hatred for me right about now for my scripture quoting. I am certainly a candidate for reeducation into the new enlightenment of the coming Utopia but it won't stick so i may have to be put down like a dog. It certainly doesn't take much to get hated by the world. Jesus got hated for calling sinners to repent, sinners who had authority to dictate what was right and wrong for the people. He didn't get hated for healing or feeding or raising the dead. He got killed for defying the corrupted authority of a sinful and wicked generation.

"Do not be astonished, brothers and sisters, that the world hates you. We know that we have passed from death to life because we love one another. Whoever does not love abides in death. All who hate a brother or sister are murderers, and you know that murderers do not have eternal life abiding in them. We know love by this, that he laid down his life for us—and we ought to lay down our lives for one another. How does God’s love abide in anyone who has the world’s goods and sees a brother or sister in need and yet refuses help?" 1 John 3:13-17

"Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God; for many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. And this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming; and now it is already in the world." 1 John 4:1-3

[Dennis Bratcher]

Here what I told them from the pulpit and when I was with them out side church. God know your heart and he know what you want. I would remind them If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us and to clease us from all unrighteous.

I basically agree with this. I would only add that this should not be the goal of the Christian life, nor should we settle for this as the norm. It is a dimension of God's grace, and in some Nazarene contexts has been sorely neglected. I would add the positive dimension of transformation by which God enables us to face the issues that bring us failure and defeat.

What makes this difficult is that people are incredibly complex and simplistic solutions (like two trips to the altar) tend to create more struggle than help. In some cases, addictions for example, professional help may be needed as well since there are aspects that are more physical than spiritual.

Because of struggle that we may have against sins we may have to live a life of sinning and repenting.

As a Wesleyan, I cannot accept this as a norm of Christian life, or settle for it as inevitable or necessary. While it is possible, I think that it should be viewed as a temporary condition in one's spiritual journey. To settle for a life of struggle with any particular issue is to admit failure, to say, in effect, God cannot do anything with this issue. (Of course there are specific examples here to consider.)

I think we have some Nazarene pastor that can do some pretty stupid thing Just recently a Nazarene church recieve a new pastor and for three service straight he preach agaisnt tobacco guess what happen many of the tobacco uses left the church. Some of these people won't return as long as he is there. God know our heart and our attitude we don't need to be driven away church.

There are two problems here. I think in most cases it is unwise for a pastor to focus too heavily on specific "sins" unless there is some clear immediate problem. And that is especially the case for issues like tobacco that are more health issues than moral problems.

On the other hand, for people to leave a church over such an issue reveals that there are more problems there than tobacco use. At that point the tobacco use may actual become the occasion for sinning. As I said before, it is not the action of a particular "sin" that separates us from God, but our refusal to let God govern our life.

Grace and Peace,

Dennis B.

[Larry Parsons]

I basically agree with this. I would only add that this should not be the goal of the Christian life, nor should we settle for this as the norm. It is a dimension of God's grace, and in some Nazarene contexts has been sorely neglected. I would add the positive dimension of transformation by which God enables us to face the issues that bring us failure and defeat.

What makes this difficult is that people are incredibly complex and simplistic solutions (like two trips to the altar) tend to create more struggle than help. In some cases, addictions for example, professional help may be needed as well since there are aspects that are more physical than spiritual.

As a Wesleyan, I cannot accept this as a norm of Christian life, or settle for it as inevitable or necessary. While it is possible, I think that it should be viewed as a temporary condition in one's spiritual journey. To settle for a life of struggle with any particular issue is to admit failure, to say, in effect, God cannot do anything with this issue. (Of course there are specific examples here to consider.)



There are two problems here. I think in most cases it is unwise for a pastor to focus too heavily on specific "sins" unless there is some clear immediate problem. And that is especially the case for issues like tobacco that are more health issues than moral problems.

On the other hand, for people to leave a church over such an issue reveals that there are more problems there than tobacco use. At that point the tobacco use may actual become the occasion for sinning. As I said before, it is not the action of a particular "sin" that separates us from God, but our refusal to let God govern our life.

Grace and Peace,

Dennis B.

I agree with the idea that sinning and repenting is not the normal Christian life style. Yet we know there are people who will struggle longer than others. For some one trip to the altar will give them victory over the sinful habit that had aquire but for other that may not be true it may take awhile even with lot of help from other. My question now Can the Christain who is struggle with some aquire sin in their life still claim that they are living a Christian life?
Thanks
Larry

[Todd Erickson]

“If the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you.", "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.""If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you." - Jesus

"But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them —bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2 Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3 In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping...if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; 6 if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7 and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the depraved conduct of the lawless 8 (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— 9 if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment. 10 This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the flesh and despise authority.." - Peter

You are probably boiling with anger and maybe feeling some hatred for me right about now for my scripture quoting. I am certainly a candidate for reeducation into the new enlightenment of the coming Utopia but it won't stick so i may have to be put down like a dog. It certainly doesn't take much to get hated by the world. Jesus got hated for calling sinners to repent, sinners who had authority to dictate what was right and wrong for the people. He didn't get hated for healing or feeding or raising the dead. He got killed for defying the corrupted authority of a sinful and wicked generation.

I have spent my life surrounded by people like you who were so sure that being thought of as a jerk for being a jerk meant that we were pleasing God.

But the verses i find seem to indicate that we would, in fact, be hated for being like Christ...loving, compassionate, humble, etc.

You can quote verses all day. You often do. It achieves a fine level of semantic satiation.

Frank Viola posted a really great article recently on how, when you go to rebuke somebody, you need to do so A. out of love and B. within relationship, or they're just going to turn away and harden their hearts, and probably end whatever relationship you have with them.

Jesus, we are told (by the bible, of all things) was so openly loving that people knew it when they encountered Him, and assuming they were open to it, were completely changed by their interaction.

You can say all day long that those who don't respond favorably to your judgment and condemnation are Pharisees and rich young rulers, but if the majority of your witness is just you using verses to beat people over the head to prove how right you are...might it not, in fact, be possible that whatever reason the world hates you for might not actually have much to do with the image of Christ?

Or perhaps what we see here of you is the fascade you reserve for other Christians, and the world knows you with a completely different face. Who knows?

[Dale Cozby]

I have spent my life surrounded by people like you who were so sure that being thought of as a jerk for being a jerk meant that we were pleasing God.

But the verses i find seem to indicate that we would, in fact, be hated for being like Christ...loving, compassionate, humble, etc.

Jesus was a jerk to some people. People who thought they had it all figured out. What sin was bad and what sin was not a sin. What sacrifice to make and what sacrifice they could ignore. They were people of faith, very misplaced faith. He was a pretty big jerk to some of them, so much so his own disciples called him on it. People who claim to be right with God yet pick and choose what sins to enforce on the people(themselves included) and what people to condemn were the ones that hated him. I may be a jerk to you and stereotyped into the group you choose to hate on, but before you cast a stone my way.....consider your posts in here over the years. You flame people and incite attack upon yourself then play the victim.
Loving as Christ is not in our base nature. Only as we die out to self can we be like Christ. But even Christ was hated, as loving as he was, even to the point of calling people on thier behavior and attitudes.

You can quote verses all day. You often do. It achieves a fine level of semantic satiation.
Frank Viola posted a really great article recently on how, when you go to rebuke somebody, you need to do so A. out of love and B. within relationship, or they're just going to turn away and harden their hearts, and probably end whatever relationship you have with them.

Yes, among the brethern I do quote verse. You are a brother so I ought to be able to quote verse to you and debate without condemnation. To the heathen, the pagan or the apostate I don't quote anything usually, but work to find common ground in action. Do you wish to be treated as a sinner or tax-collector? Jesus told us when to treat a brother as one.
It is we who should be rebuked by each other, spurred on to good works, as in fact you and I are doing now. Perhaps we are not as far apart as you might think.

Jesus, we are told (by the bible, of all things) was so openly loving that people knew it when they encountered Him, and assuming they were open to it, were completely changed by their interaction.

So what about the people who are not open to it? Open to what? Jesus told people to leave thier life of sin. Some he openly rebuked and harshly, some he was as soft and nice as can be, some left him wanting and sad. Pride and arrogance were sins he treated harshly. Soul searching and contrite hearts found his forgiveness. Some people hated him some people loved him. I postulate: If all he did was love so gently then he would not have died. But he was a force to be reckoned with, a person of character and purpose that made some people in places of power and with thier own agendas fearful and angry.

Or perhaps what we see here of you is the fascade you reserve for other Christians, and the world knows you with a completely different face. Who knows?

I am harshest to those who claim to be teachers of the orthodox doctrines and how to Love as Jesus loved, those who claim Christ yet have turned away from sound doctrine AND teach others error. Those who I question the soundness of thier doctrines and challenge them to give an answer for the faith they profess and teach others. Yes to those I can be pretty harsh as in this forum. I may be l8ike Paul in this regard. Bold in print, gentle in person.
To the lost, the needy, the poor in spirit, I offer love, mercy, gentleness and forgiveness. I pray for thier peace and God's guidance in thier life's walk. I present to them a more excellent way, a way of agape'. But agape' may mean something different to you than it does to me and this could be difference in how we view what is right and what is wrong for a Christian to do or say, and when.

[Paul DeBaufer]

Jesus was a jerk to some people. People who thought they had it all figured out. What sin was bad and what sin was not a sin. What sacrifice to make and what sacrifice they could ignore. They were people of faith, very misplaced faith. He was a pretty big jerk to some of them, so much so his own disciples called him on it. People who claim to be right with God yet pick and choose what sins to enforce on the people(themselves included) and what people to condemn were the ones that hated him. I may be a jerk to you and stereotyped into the group you choose to hate on, but before you cast a stone my way.....consider your posts in here over the years. You flame people and incite attack upon yourself then play the victim.
Loving as Christ is not in our base nature. Only as we die out to self can we be like Christ. But even Christ was hated, as loving as he was, even to the point of calling people on thier behavior and attitudes.

I see Jesus interactions differently than you do. I see Him having the harshest words for those who sat in judgment condemning those that don't measure up to their standards. I see nothing of them "picking and choosing" which sins to enforce. These religious leaders and authorities hated Jesus because of His love for those not good enough, those judged unworthy by the scribes and Pharisees.

Yes, among the brethern I do quote verse. You are a brother so I ought to be able to quote verse to you and debate without condemnation. To the heathen, the pagan or the apostate I don't quote anything usually, but work to find common ground in action. Do you wish to be treated as a sinner or tax-collector? Jesus told us when to treat a brother as one.
It is we who should be rebuked by each other, spurred on to good works, as in fact you and I are doing now. Perhaps we are not as far apart as you might think.

So what about the people who are not open to it? Open to what? Jesus told people to leave thier life of sin. Some he openly rebuked and harshly, some he was as soft and nice as can be, some left him wanting and sad. Pride and arrogance were sins he treated harshly. Soul searching and contrite hearts found his forgiveness. Some people hated him some people loved him. I postulate: If all he did was love so gently then he would not have died. But he was a force to be reckoned with, a person of character and purpose that made some people in places of power and with thier own agendas fearful and angry.

Again, I do not see it as you. I see it more akin to Todd. When love didn't work Jesus let people walk away. In John 6 many of the disciples walk away and He lets them go. He even asks the 12 if they don't want to leave too. They choose to stay.

No where do I see Jesus telling people to leave their life of sin behind. He tells the woman caught in adultery that she no longer has to live that way, He sets her free. He forgives people their sins and in that forgiveness they find healing, Oh the religious elite hate Him for that too.

I am harshest to those who claim to be teachers of the orthodox doctrines and how to Love as Jesus loved, those who claim Christ yet have turned away from sound doctrine AND teach others error. Those who I question the soundness of thier doctrines and challenge them to give an answer for the faith they profess and teach others. Yes to those I can be pretty harsh as in this forum. I may be l8ike Paul in this regard. Bold in print, gentle in person.
To the lost, the needy, the poor in spirit, I offer love, mercy, gentleness and forgiveness. I pray for thier peace and God's guidance in thier life's walk. I present to them a more excellent way, a way of agape'. But agape' may mean something different to you than it does to me and this could be difference in how we view what is right and what is wrong for a Christian to do or say, and when.

I do not see anyone here on this site, NazNet, who has turned from sound doctrine. Some 0of our doctrines are definitely not yours, yet all seem sound and based in Christ to me. Every one here claims what we are taught in 1 John 4:2 and no one here is like that in 1 John 4:3. We may well disagree and we do, but we are all still brothers and sisters and none of us is apostate.

[Dan Henderson]

I do not see anyone here on this site, NazNet, who has turned from sound doctrine.

I do...

[Cam Pence]

I do...

Not helpful unless you care to the elaborate....

[Paul DeBaufer]

I do...

Those danged hallucinations again?

[Dan Henderson]

Not helpful unless you care to the elaborate....

It would not be appropriate to do so in a public forum. Yes, I have seen more than a few out of the park suppositions. But you can figure out some of them if you identify the point in a debate where I check out.