How do we live in a gay world?

[Dale Cozby]

I see Jesus interactions differently than you do. I see Him having the harshest words for those who sat in judgment condemning those that don't measure up to their standards.

Yes he did this and I agree. The problem is what standards are the measure? Jesus said they should have practiced the latter WITHOUT neglecting the former. Justice, mercy, faithfulness and obedience all seem to be included.

I see nothing of them "picking and choosing" which sins to enforce. These religious leaders and authorities hated Jesus because of His love for those not good enough, those judged unworthy by the scribes and Pharisees.

The Pharisees wanted the praise of men. They wanted to be respected and loved by the people for thier devoted and "holy" lives. They wanted others to follow them and be like them. Jesus was not like them. Jesus taught a different way than the way they taught. Thus they rejected Jesus and hated him. Many did in fact believed Jesus but according to John 12:42 they feared the consequences and would not openly acknowledge him. It says they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.

When love didn't work Jesus let people walk away. In John 6 many of the disciples walk away and He lets them go. He even asks the 12 if they don't want to leave too. They choose to stay.

So if Jesus loved perfectly why didn't love work? Jesus offended them with what he taught. So what was this offensive teaching that made them walk away? How was this offensive teaching loving yet still made them argue sharply and leave? I would like to know your thoughts.

No where do I see Jesus telling people to leave their life of sin behind.

Jesus declared. “Go now and leave your life of sin.” - John 8:11b
"Later Jesus found him at the temple and said to him, "See, you are well again. Stop sinning or something worse may happen to you."- John 5:14
From that time on Jesus began to preach, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near.” - Matthew 4:17
What does he mean to repent? Repent of what to what?
Jesus was trying to get across a better way, a way of selflessness not sinfulness. He called people to take thier cross, deny themselves and follow him. He did not walk in the way of sinners, so how could he call us to follow him in sin?
Paul supports this idea in Romans 6:1-2 as well as in other passages. We're called out from sin to righteousness. We are to move from a complacent settling into sinning and receiving more grace to a life of self denial and righteousness. Knowns sins are given up and the Spirit moves us from where we are to where we need to be, that is from loving self to loving others as self.

He tells the woman caught in adultery that she no longer has to live that way, He sets her free. He forgives people their sins and in that forgiveness they find healing, Oh the religious elite hate Him for that too.

see above: He called to leave her life of sin. Which is being set free. Sin enslaves us. So to stop sinning is to be free. We cannot do so alone, but as the Spirit enables us, hence why no more condemnation for sin.
I know it is hard for us to adequately discourse in this form without writing a book, so i will just leave it there. Hope it is enough of an answer.

I do not see anyone here on this site, NazNet, who has turned from sound doctrine. Some of our doctrines are definitely not yours, yet all seem sound and based in Christ to me. Every one here claims what we are taught in 1 John 4:2 and no one here is like that in 1 John 4:3. We may well disagree and we do, but we are all still brothers and sisters and none of us is apostate.

And this is why I refer to all as brothers in Christ. Todd, Ben and maybe even Dennis may not see things the same way, especially in this limited means of discourse but we can agree on the essentials most of the time without any variation. I see great variation and unfortunately friction in what really amounts to non-essential in my opinion. Sound doctrine comes from much refining what we believe and teach, from leaving elementary truths about God's word to maturity. I have both learned and refined my own understanding and hopefully added to others understanding from these NN exchanges.

[Todd Erickson]

It would not be appropriate to do so in a public forum. Yes, I have seen more than a few out of the park suppositions. But you can figure out some of them if you identify the point in a debate where I check out.

Since Dan holds himself up as the watcher of the watchmen, it is, of course, not his duty to inform the watchmen of where they have fallen, but to store up condemnation where it is most effective. Just doing his job. Nothing to see here, move along, move along.

[Paul DeBaufer]

Yes he did this and I agree. The problem is what standards are the measure? Jesus said they should have practiced the latter WITHOUT neglecting the former. Justice, mercy, faithfulness and obedience all seem to be included.


The Pharisees wanted the praise of men. They wanted to be respected and loved by the people for thier devoted and "holy" lives. They wanted others to follow them and be like them. Jesus was not like them. Jesus taught a different way than the way they taught. Thus they rejected Jesus and hated him. Many did in fact believed Jesus but according to John 12:42 they feared the consequences and would not openly acknowledge him. It says they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.

So if Jesus loved perfectly why didn't love work? Jesus offended them with what he taught. So what was this offensive teaching that made them walk away? How was this offensive teaching loving yet still made them argue sharply and leave? I would like to know your thoughts.


Jesus declared. “Go now and leave your life of sin.” - John 8:11b
"Later Jesus found him at the temple and said to him, "See, you are well again. Stop sinning or something worse may happen to you."- John 5:14
From that time on Jesus began to preach, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near.” - Matthew 4:17
What does he mean to repent? Repent of what to what?
Jesus was trying to get across a better way, a way of selflessness not sinfulness. He called people to take thier cross, deny themselves and follow him. He did not walk in the way of sinners, so how could he call us to follow him in sin?
Paul supports this idea in Romans 6:1-2 as well as in other passages. We're called out from sin to righteousness. We are to move from a complacent settling into sinning and receiving more grace to a life of self denial and righteousness. Knowns sins are given up and the Spirit moves us from where we are to where we need to be, that is from loving self to loving others as self.


see above: He called to leave her life of sin. Which is being set free. Sin enslaves us. So to stop sinning is to be free. We cannot do so alone, but as the Spirit enables us, hence why no more condemnation for sin.
I know it is hard for us to adequately discourse in this form without writing a book, so i will just leave it there. Hope it is enough of an answer.

And this is why I refer to all as brothers in Christ. Todd, Ben and maybe even Dennis may not see things the same way, especially in this limited means of discourse but we can agree on the essentials most of the time without any variation. I see great variation and unfortunately friction in what really amounts to non-essential in my opinion. Sound doctrine comes from much refining what we believe and teach, from leaving elementary truths about God's word to maturity. I have both learned and refined my own understanding and hopefully added to others understanding from these NN exchanges.

The difference in our perspective, I think, is that you see Jesus telling people to stop doing things. While I see Him as inviting them to do other things, namely love. When we love we leave behind the old egocentricity, we are freed from our prisons and Egypts. The difference, and I may well be wrong, is I do not see Jesus adhering to or enforcing lists of don'ts and prohibitions, but see Him as saying do, Love God and everybody else. Treat each others they way you would want to be treated, rather than don't do that which is hateful. In this is the entirety of the law and prophets, no more lists of prohibitions. Is it loving to cheat on your wife? No! it is not. Is it loving to kill, no it is not. when we love like Him we just naturally don't do these things. I see a huge difference in the positive statement of Jesus and the still negative of Hillel, yet both seemingly say the same thing.

[David Graham]

This is a host post:

Okay, we are starting to slide into personal "skirmishes" here, and this is not helpful in building community.

Can we please remember to "play the ball and not the 'man or woman'"...... i.e. focus on the topic of discussion and to do so in constructive ways that are sensitive to the deeply held convictions of others.

The peace of Christ be with you.
Dave.

[Dale Cozby]

The difference in our perspective, I think, is that you see Jesus telling people to stop doing things. While I see Him as inviting them to do other things, namely love. When we love we leave behind the old egocentricity, we are freed from our prisons and Egypts. The difference, and I may well be wrong, is I do not see Jesus adhering to or enforcing lists of don'ts and prohibitions, but see Him as saying do, Love God and everybody else. Treat each others they way you would want to be treated, rather than don't do that which is hateful. In this is the entirety of the law and prophets, no more lists of prohibitions. Is it loving to cheat on your wife? No! it is not. Is it loving to kill, no it is not. when we love like Him we just naturally don't do these things. I see a huge difference in the positive statement of Jesus and the still negative of Hillel, yet both seemingly say the same thing.

I agree but also see that we are called to do both...leave a life on sin and strife and then embrace the new life of love and peace. "no one can serve two masters"
We cannot take hold of something new when our hands are full. We need to let go of those things we hold dear to have the greater things we want as well. Jesus said, whoever wants to save his life must lose it. Let go of it and then you find your life.
We can't become Christilike while we keep on sinning. Can we?
Also Jesus turned the Golden rule around from a negative to a positive. From "Do not do unto others what you do not want done to you" to "DO unto others the good you wish done to yourself." So I see the message of Jesus as more complete when we both Trust(let go) and Obey(do the good)

[Bill Morrison]

This is a host post:

Okay, we are starting to slide into personal "skirmishes" here, and this is not helpful in building community.

Can we please remember to "play the ball and not the 'man or woman'"...... i.e. focus on the topic of discussion and to do so in constructive ways that are sensitive to the deeply held convictions of others.

The peace of Christ be with you.
Dave.

Very well said. I deeply appreciate the way you have worded this "Host Post" and I desire to keep these thoughts in my mind as I interact with others on Naznet and in other forums.
(I am happy to say that I am not one to whom you were addressing this warning and helpful instruction, but that is probably in large part due to the fact that I had not yet posted on this thread!)

BILL

[Todd Erickson]

Paul talks about this...he says that if there is one among you who was a thief, that he should learn to make things and give them away.

Rob Bell has a great section on this in Sex God...Stealing is something that you do with your hands, and there's an addictive excitement to it, and it's about taking from others. Making things is something of skill that we learn to do with our hands, and we learn to have pride in the gifts God has instilled in us that we are able to do these things, and to take the fruits of that labor and give them to others...it's a complete inversion of what the person was doing.

The opposite of a sin is not not sinning, but doing something else.

I think what we see between Dale and Paul here, which has been present throughout many conversations (Dale and I are actually talking about it on facebook, and I'm finding out that he's a very different person than I thought he was, more the fool I) and we see the struggle it is to operate within a plurality conversation, rather than a dualistic conversation.

Our model, Christ, most often chose a third way. Training ourselves to third way thinking is incredible difficult, but, I think, very valuable.

[Dennis Bratcher]

Bottom line for me (and it is a personal position): I am called to love other people with the love of Christ. I am not called to judge people for where they are in their life journey. That is God's responsibility. . . . Yet, it is not our job as Christians to condemn others but rather to model Christlikeness for them, to live as people of God loving others as God has first loved us.

It seems that several have missed the point of the original post. But then, I fully understand that some conceptualize what it means to be a Christian much differently than I do.

Grace and Peace,

Dennis B.

[Paul DeBaufer]

Paul talks about this...he says that if there is one among you who was a thief, that he should learn to make things and give them away.

Rob Bell has a great section on this in Sex God...Stealing is something that you do with your hands, and there's an addictive excitement to it, and it's about taking from others. Making things is something of skill that we learn to do with our hands, and we learn to have pride in the gifts God has instilled in us that we are able to do these things, and to take the fruits of that labor and give them to others...it's a complete inversion of what the person was doing.

The opposite of a sin is not not sinning, but doing something else.

I think what we see between Dale and Paul here, which has been present throughout many conversations (Dale and I are actually talking about it on facebook, and I'm finding out that he's a very different person than I thought he was, more the fool I) and we see the struggle it is to operate within a plurality conversation, rather than a dualistic conversation.

Our model, Christ, most often chose a third way. Training ourselves to third way thinking is incredible difficult, but, I think, very valuable.

Could you tell me more of this third way?

[Todd Erickson]

When we see Jesus talking about turning the other cheek, or walking a mile more than you have to, he's talking about very specific cultural circumstances. To have made those choices and entered into those situations created specific social entanglements that changed who people were to one another.

For Jesus, the question very clear is not "how is this person not sinning" but "how are their actions of love creating the Kingdom?" Rather than operating in a binary on/off yes/no position, Jesus seems to encourage a creative endeavor where we enter into circumstances in a way that both acts against an issue, and creates a new avenue.

Shane Claiborne talks about how he and a youth from his community were being attacked and beaten by a group of toughs from the Philadelphia slums. Shane turned to them and said, forcibly, "though you beat and mock us, because we follow Christ, we must love you!" at this, those who were attacking them stopped and left.

I think that the Spirit acts through us in very creative ways that break the binary system we tend to operate in, but because we operate on the basis of belief rather than life integrated knowledge, there often is little room for the creativity of the Spirit to really explode our lives through third way methodology...and that third way definitely springs directly from the inspiration of Christ.

[Hans Deventer]

I am harshest to those who claim to be teachers of the orthodox doctrines and how to Love as Jesus loved, those who claim Christ yet have turned away from sound doctrine AND teach others error.

Well, that does explain a lot. I always appreciate honesty in people. I understand why you treat me like you do now.

I may be like Paul in this regard. Bold in print, gentle in person.

Hmmm. I tend to tink, if it walks like a duck, looks like a duck, talks like a duck, chances are, it actually is a duck. Or Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde.

To stick to myself, I can pretend to be the most gentle person on earth, but chances are, after 14 years on NazNet, you've probably figured out pretty well what my character is like. And I am the very same person here as in real life. I've never been good at wearing masks and playing roles. Hate it anyway. What you see is what you get.

[Dale Cozby]

When we see Jesus talking about turning the other cheek, or walking a mile more than you have to, he's talking about very specific cultural circumstances. To have made those choices and entered into those situations created specific social entanglements that changed who people were to one another.

For Jesus, the question very clear is not "how is this person not sinning" but "how are their actions of love creating the Kingdom?" Rather than operating in a binary on/off yes/no position, Jesus seems to encourage a creative endeavor where we enter into circumstances in a way that both acts against an issue, and creates a new avenue.

Shane Claiborne talks about how he and a youth from his community were being attacked and beaten by a group of toughs from the Philadelphia slums. Shane turned to them and said, forcibly, "though you beat and mock us, because we follow Christ, we must love you!" at this, those who were attacking them stopped and left.

I think that the Spirit acts through us in very creative ways that break the binary system we tend to operate in, but because we operate on the basis of belief rather than life integrated knowledge, there often is little room for the creativity of the Spirit to really explode our lives through third way methodology...and that third way definitely springs directly from the inspiration of Christ.

Last year in the prison where I volunteer the new warden decided to break up the faith based wing and spread the saints around the prison. He himself we later found out is a Christian, but at the time this placed the brothers in a great deal of uncomfortable hardship. Later one of the brothers who is a lay preacher and teacher in there talked of being placed on a wing where ethnically and by gang affiliation he was an outcast. A small group of brothers found themselves in a place where they had no right to sit down in thier day room. All seats were "owned" by the gang that ran that wing and you could not sit down unless you were a member opf the gang. As they stood there and looked around that day, one asked what they should do now. The most mature brother of them spoke and said, we are surrounded by those who call themselves our enemy and they are testing us to see if we are what we claim to be. So in the mdist of the room they began to pray and show kindness and respect to the gang. Eventually, the gang voted to give the Christians thier own area to sit. This led to prayers and Biblestudies within ear shot of the gang and now a year later, some of those gang members have warmed up and a few have joined the Bible study. They have earned the respect of the world around them by showing respect, treating others kindly.

Hans, when we act in ways to show respect we gain respect. Yes, you and I have traded barbs in the past. I haven't always been nice and neither have you in some of our exchanges. I still see disagreement in areas of thought, but overall I still respect you and would ask for the same. Duck duck goose.
Most of the posts you react to I post aren't even directed toward you but to someone else and then you interject something harsh and unhelpful. Refering to me as Jekyll/Hyde isn't respectful nor helpful. I would prefer if in plural conversations in threads we could keep from mixing it all up, but it is hard to do and often in the sorting out we group people together.
I could lump people into Us and Them and then treat people accordingly, but I am not George, nor Trevor, nor Jim, nor David, nor Dan. I find myself agreeing with Dennis, Ben, or Paul and even you because the lines are not so easy to draw as conservative and liberal, or right(all the time) and wrong(all the time). I would hope that you are truly open to alternative views and harmonious concepts and have not listed anything as rejected and dismissed because of the source from which the idea comes.
Even though I disagree with George's reformed views, I still like to hear what he has to say as it helps me understand what I think and believe better, sometimes by reconciling his understanding with my own.
I have come to a much better understanding of thiestic evolution in Naznet, a concept I questioned harshly, until it was more fully explained. Likewise, this topic Dennis started helps us to form a more refined way of looking at this topic and dealing with it in real life and I apperciate that.

[Hans Deventer]

Dale, that's why I don't claim to be a jerk here and a nice bloke elsewhere. There is no place where I am always nice, and there no place where I am always a jerk. My life, for better and for worse, is one. The only difference would be that I speak out more in one place than another. Sometimes you just know it's no use casting pearls before the swine. Other times, I realize the pig is me.

As to sources, it is totally obvious that if stuf comes from some corners, I have a real hard time to listen at all. If I am to listen, I need to have come to the conclusion that the specific person is worth listening too in the first place. Otherwise, I only listen to find weak arguments to attack, becaus I simply do not want the arguments to be true. In my view, 99% of us work that way, the percentage that will admit it seems a little lower though.
This, I think, accounts for the fact that so few change their minds on issues.

And it makes clear that it is really important to determine who to listen to. One must avoid gathering teachers who only tell you what you want to know, or what you already knew. And still, they need to establish that credibility connection. And often, you listen, accepting things, while remaining critical of where the concepts lead to if we go all the way. For instance, I like Tom Oord a lot, respect his knowledge, and think he has usefull things to say, but for me, he hasn't solved the eschatological part of his kenosis theology yet, which means that I accept parts of it, but cannot buy it wholesale.
As to a guy like John Piper, I merely enjoy how N.T. Wright runs his theology through the shedder. I'm reading Wright's "Justification" right now and I cannot tell what I love more: the sound exegesis or the tearing apart of (in my view) Calvinistic theology. BUT, all the same, Wright argues for a place for the lawcourt image within the concept of justification. I detest the lawcourt image because of the non-relational side of it, but when N.T. Writes about it, I'm willing to listen and reconsider my views.

So this is how it works for me, Dale. I try to be the same where ever I am. And both Jekyl and Hyde are part of me. I don't feel insulted by that designation myself, I'm sorry if you are.

[Paul DeBaufer]

When we see Jesus talking about turning the other cheek, or walking a mile more than you have to, he's talking about very specific cultural circumstances. To have made those choices and entered into those situations created specific social entanglements that changed who people were to one another.

For Jesus, the question very clear is not "how is this person not sinning" but "how are their actions of love creating the Kingdom?" Rather than operating in a binary on/off yes/no position, Jesus seems to encourage a creative endeavor where we enter into circumstances in a way that both acts against an issue, and creates a new avenue.

Shane Claiborne talks about how he and a youth from his community were being attacked and beaten by a group of toughs from the Philadelphia slums. Shane turned to them and said, forcibly, "though you beat and mock us, because we follow Christ, we must love you!" at this, those who were attacking them stopped and left.

I think that the Spirit acts through us in very creative ways that break the binary system we tend to operate in, but because we operate on the basis of belief rather than life integrated knowledge, there often is little room for the creativity of the Spirit to really explode our lives through third way methodology...and that third way definitely springs directly from the inspiration of Christ.

Okay, I like Jesus' method, it really taps into my rebellious nature by subverting oppressive social norms. Radical love like Jesus shows the world is life changing. I had an experience similar to that of Claiborne whilst walking through the projects 15 years ago, though physical violence had not been a factor, I was in the height of my atheism and had no idea what Jesus taught.

[Dale Cozby]

Dale, that's why I don't claim to be a jerk here and a nice bloke elsewhere. There is no place where I am always nice, and there no place where I am always a jerk. My life, for better and for worse, is one. The only difference would be that I speak out more in one place than another. Sometimes you just know it's no use casting pearls before the swine. Other times, I realize the pig is me.

I won't put a fish symbol on my car or any other designation of affiliation. I figure that even if I drive my best to someone else I am an idiot or a jerk and I see no reason to bring that reputation upon my associations. I do admit I am nicer in public than I am in here. I have made an effort of late to humanize these names on the left rather than seeing them as non-human machine AI.

As to a guy like John Piper, I merely enjoy how N.T. Wright runs his theology through the shedder. I'm reading Wright's "Justification" right now and I cannot tell what I love more: the sound exegesis or the tearing apart of (in my view) Calvinistic theology. BUT, all the same, Wright argues for a place for the lawcourt image within the concept of justification. I detest the lawcourt image because of the non-relational side of it, but when N.T. Writes about it, I'm willing to listen and reconsider my views.

Ah see here again we find complete agreement. I loath it with a passion and must resist referriing to it as from the devil.

So this is how it works for me, Dale. I try to be the same where ever I am. And both Jekyl and Hyde are part of me. I don't feel insulted by that designation myself, I'm sorry if you are.

I am more of a Banner/Hulk sort of guy. Especially after seeing what he did to Loki.

[Todd Erickson]

I am more of a Banner/Hulk sort of guy. Especially after seeing what he did to Loki.

And occasionally Thor.

[Larry Parsons]

Dennis, Years ago I heard well know old holiness preacher say: we will never get to the place where it is not necessary for us pray "Forgive us our trespasses " (The Lord prayer) Isn't Paul saying in Rom.13:10 that infirmities and mistakes that come from the corrupted state of the body is not consider sin. Even aquire sin which is a involuntary transgression. Even John Wesley claim that a person who is filled with the love of God can still commit involuntary transgressions which i include as aquire sin these sin are cause by some addictive drug habit. What do say?
Thanks
Larry

[David Graham]

Dennis, Years ago I heard well know old holiness preacher say: we will never get to the place where it is not necessary for us pray "Forgive us our trespasses " (The Lord prayer) Isn't Paul saying in Rom.13:10 that infirmities and mistakes that come from the corrupted state of the body is not consider sin. Even aquire sin which is a involuntary transgression. Even John Wesley claim that a person who is filled with the love of God can still commit involuntary transgressions which i include as aquire sin these sin are cause by some addictive drug habit. What do say?
Thanks
Larry

I can't speak for Dennis Lary, but I agree that we will never get to a point in this life where we will not need to say: "Forgive us our failures".......
I use failures deliberately, because I believe that there is a definate distinction between human failure and SIN (properly so called). I agree with Wesley that SIN is a wilful transgression of a known law of God, i.e. Rebellion! This is the one thing that separates us from a holy God. Traditionally it was seen as the reason for Lucifer's fall, and likewise I believe that it was the cause for our first Parents fall as well.

To complicate things further, SIN has corrupted the whole of our human nature so that it is difficult for humanity to always do, or say or think or indeed to intend to do or say or think what is right, good and best. Hence we fail every day, though we often don't intend to and in many cases we don't even realise that we have failed. And sometimes this can cause bad or embarrassing results. Thus we do need to ask forgiveness for these and for daily help to do God's will as best we understand it.

By way of an illustration of how this failure can work, I remember visiting a lady who was still a member of the church but never attended the services. I wondered why? And during one of my regular visits around the Parish (on the third time I had visited her after 18 months) I asked her why she didn't attend our worship services. She replied that the last time she went to church, someone commented to her that her photograph was not on the church family notice board, and made the additional comment: "You know that if your picture is not up here you're not part of the family". Now this statement was unintended to cause any offence, (in fact I've found out since that it was said in jest) but had a negative affect in this "oversensitive" person's mind. And so I discussed this with the lady who felt offended and she said that she may come back to church again, although she now feels a little embarrassed by her reaction. So, in relation to this situation, human failure is apparent all around, and I'd suggest confession and forgiveness is required to bring healing; certainly towards God but also between the people involved.

As for addictive drug habits........ they certainly represent human failure and weakness, but they may also represent human rebellion as well. I've worked with enough alcoholics over the years to know that rebellion and selfishness play a big part in the addiction!

[Dan Henderson]

As for addictive drug habits........ they certainly represent human failure and weakness, but they may also represent human rebellion as well. I've worked with enough alcoholics over the years to know that rebellion and selfishness play a big part in the addiction!

My dad worked clinically as a substance abuse counselor. He summarized alcoholism for me as a sickness as a result of the sin of self indulgence. Even as a Nazarene pastor in the 70s, he was careful to teach me that the Nazarene teatotaller view was a social stance and that I should not be concerned with other Christians who chose to enjoy alcoholic beverages. Alchoholism is a result of excessiveness and/or a result of drinking for the wrong reasons. Once something becomes a habit, its hard to break, chemical ones may be the hardest ones. So though the act or actions that may have gotten a person to where they are, they need help to get out of it. It becomes a sickness that needs to be treated.

I wonder how many other of our self-indulgences are similar. We've done it or accepted it for so long ....

[Larry Parsons]

I can't speak for Dennis Lary, but I agree that we will never get to a point in this life where we will not need to say: "Forgive us our failures".......
I use failures deliberately, because I believe that there is a definate distinction between human failure and SIN (properly so called). I agree with Wesley that SIN is a wilful transgression of a known law of God, i.e. Rebellion! This is the one thing that separates us from a holy God. Traditionally it was seen as the reason for Lucifer's fall, and likewise I believe that it was the cause for our first Parents fall as well.

To complicate things further, SIN has corrupted the whole of our human nature so that it is difficult for humanity to always do, or say or think or indeed to intend to do or say or think what is right, good and best. Hence we fail every day, though we often don't intend to and in many cases we don't even realise that we have failed. And sometimes this can cause bad or embarrassing results. Thus we do need to ask forgiveness for these and for daily help to do God's will as best we understand it.

By way of an illustration of how this failure can work, I remember visiting a lady who was still a member of the church but never attended the services. I wondered why? And during one of my regular visits around the Parish (on the third time I had visited her after 18 months) I asked her why she didn't attend our worship services. She replied that the last time she went to church, someone commented to her that her photograph was not on the church family notice board, and made the additional comment: "You know that if your picture is not up here you're not part of the family". Now this statement was unintended to cause any offence, (in fact I've found out since that it was said in jest) but had a negative affect in this "oversensitive" person's mind. And so I discussed this with the lady who felt offended and she said that she may come back to church again, although she now feels a little embarrassed by her reaction. So, in relation to this situation, human failure is apparent all around, and I'd suggest confession and forgiveness is required to bring healing; certainly towards God but also between the people involved.

As for addictive drug habits........ they certainly represent human failure and weakness, but they may also represent human rebellion as well. I've worked with enough alcoholics over the years to know that rebellion and selfishness play a big part in the addiction!

If failures are not a sins then why do we need to ask to be forgiven? The idea of aquire sins that I have mention came from a book that read years ago and the book was written either by Richard Howard or Kenneth Grider a Nazarene and at the moment I'm going with Grider but I could be wrong if I'm wrong then I failed to remember the right author. Do I need to ask God to forgive me. The idea that I got from the book aquire sin is not voluntary transgression but a sin that may come from a sinful habit that we have pick in life and now we can't stop or control even after we have become a Christian. I'm not talking about rebellions people I'm talking about people who are sincere who want completle victory. I do believe that victory can come to those who are seeking God's help and we need to be patience with those who a struggle.
Thanks
Larry

[Larry Parsons]

My dad worked clinically as a substance abuse counselor. He summarized alcoholism for me as a sickness as a result of the sin of self indulgence. Even as a Nazarene pastor in the 70s, he was careful to teach me that the Nazarene teatotaller view was a social stance and that I should not be concerned with other Christians who chose to enjoy alcoholic beverages. Alchoholism is a result of excessiveness and/or a result of drinking for the wrong reasons. Once something becomes a habit, its hard to break, chemical ones may be the hardest ones. So though the act or actions that may have gotten a person to where they are, they need help to get out of it. It becomes a sickness that needs to be treated.

I wonder how many other of our self-indulgences are similar. We've done it or accepted it for so long ....

Don, thanks you do a better job than I do.
Thanks
Larry

[David Graham]

If failures are not a sins then why do we need to ask to be forgiven? The idea of aquire sins that I have mention came from a book that read years ago and the book was written either by Richard Howard or Kenneth Grider a Nazarene and at the moment I'm going with Grider but I could be wrong if I'm wrong then I failed to remember the right author. Do I need to ask God to forgive me. The idea that I got from the book aquire sin is not voluntary transgression but a sin that may come from a sinful habit that we have pick in life and now we can't stop or control even after we have become a Christian. I'm not talking about rebellions people I'm talking about people who are sincere who want completle victory. I do believe that victory can come to those who are seeking God's help and we need to be patience with those who a struggle.
Thanks
Larry

Larry my answer to your question highlighted is that we need to walk humbly with our God. How can I confess that something is a sin when I don't know what it is? (as our Calvinist brothers say: "A sin of ignorance.") But, we can say to God, "O I am sorry for failing you today somewhere!" It's a bit like accidently bumping into someone during a coffee break and causing them to spill some of their coffee. You don't mean it (i.e. it's not sinful), but you are sorry for it all the same. And please note, Larry that I deliberately used the word "Failures" rather than SINS. To call non deliberate actions or inactions sinful is to send all the wrong "perfectionistic messages".

SINS as I mentioned before are acts of rebellion against God. These have the ability to derail our spiritual lives and cannot be tolerated by Christians. Failures on the other hand can be both SINS and human infirmities/weaknesses/thoughtless actions & inactions etc.

And Dan, I appreciated your post, and while I agree that Alcoholism becomes a sickness in the end, it didn't start out that way. No-one becomes or remains an alcoholic by accident; choice is involved and while we need to love them, we can't pity them, lest we give them an excuse to continue in that destructive behaviour. As a reformed alcoholic told me when I first started ministering to alcoholics: "You can't be soft on them. If you do you won't help them! They need to first of all recognise that they have a problem and that they have to deal with it.... with our support"!

And yes Larry I too believe that victory can come to any one who comes sincerely to God for help

[David Graham]

This is a Naznet Host post

We're starting to stray from the original topic of the thread, of how we can live in a Gay world.

What we are presently talking about is still related but it's certainly over to one side, and could go further if we contue to deal with issues of addictions; unless of course someone wants to draw some connection between addiction and the original question. I personally don't see an immediate connection, so unless some-one can make that connection we should get back to the original discussion.

If anyone wants to discuss addictions, maybe we could start another thread.
Blessings,
Dave

[Larry Parsons]

Larry my answer to your question highlighted is that we need to walk humbly with our God. How can I confess that something is a sin when I don't know what it is? (as our Calvinist brothers say: "A sin of ignorance.") But, we can say to God, "O I am sorry for failing you today somewhere!" It's a bit like accidently bumping into someone during a coffee break and causing them to spill some of their coffee. You don't mean it (i.e. it's not sinful), but you are sorry for it all the same. And please note, Larry that I deliberately used the word "Failures" rather than SINS. To call non deliberate actions or inactions sinful is to send all the wrong "perfectionistic messages".

SINS as I mentioned before are acts of rebellion against God. These have the ability to derail our spiritual lives and cannot be tolerated by Christians. Failures on the other hand can be both SINS and human infirmities/weaknesses/thoughtless actions & inactions etc.

And Dan, I appreciated your post, and while I agree that Alcoholism becomes a sickness in the end, it didn't start out that way. No-one becomes or remains an alcoholic by accident; choice is involved and while we need to love them, we can't pity them, lest we give them an excuse to continue in that destructive behaviour. As a reformed alcoholic told me when I first started ministering to alcoholics: "You can't be soft on them. If you do you won't help them! They need to first of all recognise that they have a problem and that they have to deal with it.... with our support"!

And yes Larry I too believe that victory can come to any one who comes sincerely to God for help

Years years ago i sold the book of life for the big the Z company. This put me in a lot of difference Christians home and if it was a Baptist home as soon as they found that I was Nazarene they would say something like "you know no one is perfect this was thier way of telling me that everyone sin everyday in thought,word and deed of course we know the Devil couldn't do anymore. i would ask them how many sins that they have commited in last hour and would you believe it they couldn't think of one sin. I would say what about yesterday what sins have you committed. They couldn't think of any but all of a sudden they would say I can't think of any right now but I know that I have sin. I know I could help them out but that would defeat my aurgement so i don't mention the sin of ignorance which I believe is man doctrine. I don't believe we have to live a life walking on egg shell to please God.
Thanks
Larry

[David Graham]

I don't believe we have to live a life walking on egg shell to please God.

Correct Larry, that's why I draw a definate distinction between sin (properly so called) and human failure.

That's why I believe I can say: "I don't sin in word thought and deed every day"...... but be assured; I most certainly fail every day

I think that we are mostly agreed on this issue larry..... perhaps where we differ is more about definitions? Or the consequences associated with such failures?

[Bob Hunter]

Another disturbing anti-gay episode making it rounds on the internet. This one involves the indoctrination of a child. It's really sick.

[Paul DeBaufer]

I saw that earlier in the week. Ain't that child abuse, teaching kids to hate?

[David Graham]

What I can't comprehend is how any Christian who has come to know the forgiveness and grace of God can take any joy in the ultimate demise of any "sinner".

To raise children with such a jaundiced attitude to other people even if they are sinners is perversely pharisaical. The words of Jesus come to mind here: "You make them twice as much a son of hell as yourselves"! (Matthew 23: 15)

They are "blind guides", "noisy gongs" and "white washed tombs", ..... but I'm being very judgemental and need to stop saying such things. Lord have mercy.

[Bob Hunter]

I saw that earlier in the week. Ain't that child abuse, teaching kids to hate?

Morally speaking it is wrong to place a child in front of an audience and demand a religious speech, but is it legally wrong? I'm not seeing where the child is physically harmed in any way. It's psychologically damaging and unhealthy, but there is no evidence of harm. It's childhood religious indoctrination at its worst. Sort of a religious pageantry that makes one sick. Parading a child in front of a religious audience and demanding public hate speech...Ugh!

[Todd Erickson]

If you truly believe that something is wrong and evil, and that the people participating in it are actively allying themselves with Satan, and your entire worldview is based around fear and the war against hell, then of course indoctrination like this makes sense. They are in active Spiritual warfare, and the world is being consumed by mindless hedonism. What are they supposed to do, tell their kids that it's all okay?

[Paul DeBaufer]

Another disturbing anti-gay episode making it rounds on the internet. This one involves the indoctrination of a child. It's really sick.

Morally speaking it is wrong to place a child in front of an audience and demand a religious speech, but is it legally wrong? I'm not seeing where the child is physically harmed in any way. It's psychologically damaging and unhealthy, but there is no evidence of harm. It's childhood religious indoctrination at its worst. Sort of a religious pageantry that makes one sick. Parading a child in front of a religious audience and demanding public hate speech...Ugh!

If you truly believe that something is wrong and evil, and that the people participating in it are actively allying themselves with Satan, and your entire worldview is based around fear and the war against hell, then of course indoctrination like this makes sense. They are in active Spiritual warfare, and the world is being consumed by mindless hedonism. What are they supposed to do, tell their kids that it's all okay?

Five Point Baptist lives. Red State is alive and well.

[John Kennedy]

I saw that earlier in the week. Ain't that child abuse, teaching kids to hate?

And if the child, later, turns out to be gay..........?

[Paul DeBaufer]

And if the child, later, turns out to be gay..........?

Then they instilled self-loathing and increased his likelihood of suicide. Will they rejoice and cheer then too?

[Todd Erickson]

There was a twitter thread recently where people posted 'what I'd say to my unborn child". Over a thousand of them were "if you turn out to be gay, I'll kill you."

[Paul DeBaufer]

There was a twitter thread recently where people posted 'what I'd say to my unborn child". Over a thousand of them were "if you turn out to be gay, I'll kill you."

I'd hope all those are sterile for none of them should ever be around anyone's child, let alone have one of their own.

[John Kennedy]

Lord have mercy.

I have maintained for some time that a good, heart-felt kyrie eleison is always appropriate.

[Lorie Hatcliff]

Five Point Baptist lives. Red State is alive and well.

What does this bolded statement mean?

[Todd Erickson]

What does this bolded statement mean?

Red State is a movie by kevin Smith about religious extremists.

[Todd Erickson]

Found this tonight, thought it spoke very well on the subject.

[Cam Pence]

Red State is a movie by kevin Smith about religious extremists.

I thoroughly enjoyed Agent Keenans monologue at the end.