former baptist/AOG/Nazarene convert to RCC -topic: authority

[Kami Tuenning]

http://www.ewtn.com/tv/live/journeyhome.asp

reflections?

[Jim Chabot]

http://www.ewtn.com/tv/live/journeyhome.asp

reflections?

Ummm, it's an hour long? Sorry, I don't have time to watch the whole thing. But you have given a clue which is "authority" I think that is a reason why many have made as the RCC would say "the journey home." I don't suspect that I will be making that particular trip as my journey has been in the opposite direction. But yeah, authority and security of belief is important and it's attractive to folks. Despite all the talk of post modernism, folks still hold a place in their heart for something concrete and secure, the RCC offers this. I fear that our church will be in decline so long as we remain in flux regarding our identity, I believe that folks yearn for stability and authority. The object of my authority is in the Scriptures rather than the church, but for those who value church authority, the RCC is clearly the way to go.

[Greg Farra]

We just had another thread with an hour long video. I wonder if this will attract as much attention. And to be honest, Tami, would you like us to go to Catholic message boards and post vdeos on why people left the Catholic Chirch?

[David Graham]

Enjoyed his testimony; thrilled that he has found his spiritual home........ yet, in the end it is all about following Jesus Christ within his body, the Church, catholic and apostolic.

The RCC certainly doesn't have a monopoly upon being the only or even the "prime" apostolically authoritative church!

The whole idea of Christ's authority being given to the church through the Apostles is fine, and yet even a rudamentary study of church history would indicate that it took three centuries before the (Metropolitan) Bishop of Rome became the main authority in the west. The church continued to grow and witness in the east and other parts of the world not under the authority of Rome.

Likewise in the west, the church also grew and prospered under the leadership of the Bishop (Pope) of Rome. However, the church slumped into apostasy under the leadership of worldly ambitious and corrupt popes. By the time of the Reformation, the church had generally lost its way, with mostly biblically illiterate clergy and an over emphasis upon liturgy (in Latin only) iconology and the corrupt sale of indulgences. Many in the Catholic church were calling for change, some like Luther wanted minimal changes, others like the Anabaptists called for wholesale changes. Yet, by the time the Reformation dust had settled, that which remained of the Roman Catholic church also was reformed, and was no longer as spiritually bankrupt as it once was prior to the time when the Reformation began...... although very antagonistic towards the Protestants. Those on the "Protestant catholic" side were certainly much different to the original catholic church from which they had emerged. It has been said that one church went into the Reformation but Five Christian movements came out the other side; one of which was the Catholic church ruled from Rome. Given that the Spirit of God was also at work with in the lives of those who were in the other movements (i.e. Reformed, Lutheran, Anabaptist, Anglican) can the Roman Catholic church claim any more authority then they? I think not! Each of them have Apostolic lineage and authority through the ancient order prior to the Reformation....... i.e they come from the same "Vine" stem.

Yet, he has found the Apostolic authority important and meaningful to him through the RCC, and I am pleased for him.
But I can also claim that same Apostolic authority through my Reformed/Anglican tradition of which I am a part, and find this equally meaningful.

[Hans Deventer]

We just had another thread with an hour long video. I wonder if this will attract as much attention. And to be honest, Tami, would you like us to go to Catholic message boards and post vdeos on why people left the Catholic Chirch?

So it seems. And then we can post videos on Reformed message boards of people having become Arminians. All to the glory of God, of course.

[Susan Unger]

I enjoyed it parts of it, especially how he seemed to experience so much of the Christian world. I had to stop when he said "the way to know Jesus is to know his mother." To each his own..

[Todd Erickson]

Post-Liberal: That's great that that works for you as a manner of encountering and growing through God. Please be aware that that method is not true for all of your brothers and sisters, and allow them the same freedom as well.

[Marian Schwaller Carney]

I too have watched "The Journey Home" on several occasions. I even enjoy some of it and learn some things. (I like EWTN in general and watch it from time to time; esp the news show with Raymond Arroyo and the sports guys on Crossing the Goal; and that Father psychiatrist from NYC; and the other New Yorker priest who does the catechism). I am happy for those who find fulfillment in the church to which they are called. My issue with the host (Marcus?) is that he strikes me, due to his smugness, as someone who is constantly asking himself if he made the right choice. I feel I see more of this "RCC is the only real church" attitude from those who have migrated from another faith practice. Just my 2cents as a somewhat occasional viewer.

[Scott Moseley]

Troll post?

[Susan Unger]

My issue with the host (Marcus?) is that he strikes me, due to his smugness, as someone who is constantly asking himself if he made the right choice.

I hadn't picked up on that but there does seem to be something. I always thought it was due to a sentiment he expressed once about the 'pain' he had because during his pre-RCC days he tried to stir people away from the RCC.

I will watch occaisionally as well.

[Kami Tuenning]

Good insights. I heard part of this interview in my car. I posted it because I saw he was a former nazarene. Was curious if anyone knew him because of his musical background. Main purpose for posting was exactly what Jim mentioned-the fear that the nazarene church will be in decline as long as it in flux regarding its identity. A large segment of the people converting to RCC are the ages that seem to be declining in the mainline and evangelical churches. Way back when, Robert Webber inferred that was because this age group would finally hit postmodern bottom and long for something unchanging, "otherworldy" in experience and deep in theology. All of these things are lacking in the Nazarene church as a whole and in my husbands (new) American baptist denom. Just food for thought.

[Kami Tuenning]

Troll post?

actually no. I have a life:

[Kami Tuenning]

So it seems. And then we can post videos on Reformed message boards of people having become Arminians. All to the glory of God, of course.

Hans-your bias is showing. what can we do to turn your frown upside down?

[Susan Unger]

Main purpose for posting was exactly what Jim mentioned-the fear that the nazarene church will be in decline as long as it in flux regarding its identity.

The last few years and especially the last few months I am really seeing the truth of that statement.

A large segment of the people converting to RCC are the ages that seem to be declining in the mainline and evangelical churches. Way back when, Robert Webber inferred that was because this age group would finally hit postmodern bottom and long for something unchanging, "otherworldy" in experience and deep in theology. All of these things are lacking in the Nazarene church as a whole and in my husbands (new) American baptist denom. Just food for thought.

I concur.

[Hans Deventer]

Hans-your bias is showing. what can we do to turn your frown upside down?

Oh, I have a very strong bias and I'm allergic to anything that even remotely looks like it. Thought that was obvious by now. I hate proselyting among Christians. "Go and make disciples of all nations" was the command, it was not "go and make all Christians submit to the bishop or Rome, the Westminster Confession, the Manual of the CotN or whatever".

[Gina Stevenson]

Hmmm ... didn't think of it as proselytizing, Hans. Tho't it was just due to the Nazarene connection, tho' it was a long video. Just did other things while listening.

[Hans Deventer]

Hmmm ... didn't think of it as proselytizing, Hans. Tho't it was just due to the Nazarene connection, tho' it was a long video. Just did other things while listening.

On itself, you're probably right. In the context of what Tami has been posting the last couple of months, I'm not so sure. And as I wrote, I'm honest about my bias. I'm allergic to what even smells like it. That is, on a different forum, of course! If people want to post how a RC became a Nazarene on NazNet, fine with me. Or how a Nazarene became a Roman Catholic on an RC-forum, fine as well. Just don't like the "I used to be like you but now I have found the truth and I'm going to convince all you deluded souls" kind ot attitude.

[Jim Chabot]

Good insights. I heard part of this interview in my car. I posted it because I saw he was a former nazarene. Was curious if anyone knew him because of his musical background. Main purpose for posting was exactly what Jim mentioned-the fear that the nazarene church will be in decline as long as it in flux regarding its identity. A large segment of the people converting to RCC are the ages that seem to be declining in the mainline and evangelical churches. Way back when, Robert Webber inferred that was because this age group would finally hit postmodern bottom and long for something unchanging, "otherworldy" in experience and deep in theology. All of these things are lacking in the Nazarene church as a whole and in my husbands (new) American baptist denom. Just food for thought.

Thanks Tami. For while we must remember that our main and unchanging theology and philosophy is to preach Christ and Him crucified. We are currently adrift in so many areas. We are finally coming to grips with the untenability of "secondness" as a crisis experience, and my worry is that we may be throwing the baby out with the bath water. While I've never been an adherent of the crisis experience/second conversion, I am firmly in the holiness camp. Our denomination has always been about the spirit filled deeper life experience, we have always been about holy living and the resultant closeness to God that comes from actively seeking Him and His will for our lives. I worry that we may lose this in the shuffle, possibly coming out of this with no real sense of purpose, lukewarm and useless like the mainline denominations.

I believe that you are correct in your assessment that the post modern mindset is permanent in very few folks, most people have always grown out of it. We used to call it the generation gap when I was young, I'm sure that there were various and sundry descriptors for this going all the way back into antiquity. unless we realize that temporal nature of this mindset, unless we realize that for most it is a phase, we will die on the vine. People who are serious, seek out a serious place. I believe that Barna had published a piece on this a few years back where he predicted the demise of evangelical Christianity, his outlook was that the only churches who would emerge healthy were those who were solid in their beliefs, and sadly those who catered to seekers without regard to theology. As in most things, those in the middle of the road get run over.

And thank you for your concern.

[Todd Erickson]

I think that the people who believe that the RCC or OC are going to fill some hole that is currently unfilled with a Protestant Church will find that in about a decade (or less) that they're in exactly the same spot, and looking for greener pastures again. Except that by then, they may be so entrenched they have no recourse but to defend their "new" home.

Church cannot satisfies our longing. It is meant to point to that which will satisfy our longing. If we are instead longing for church, we may have the wrong longing.

Of course, we long for those who will share the longing in the way that we do...but then, life may be all about finding bright spots in the middle of continual insufferable frustrations, in any case.

What if you get to "heaven", and God has things that he really needs done that only you can do, and that's the next several thousand years doing those things, acting in service, and you still don't get those things which really please you?

What if there is no mass or church service at all in heaven? If you can be dissatisfied with your experience with God here, chances are, you can be just as dissatisfied in heaven...

[Marian Schwaller Carney]

Today the sermon was on the Apostles Creed line, 'I believe... in the holy catholic church". And, indeed, I do. It's a big tent! Lots of non-believers need, as yet, to get under it. I agree with Hans -- That is our real job.

[Dale Cozby]

My responce to the authority issue.

Is accepting RCC authority essential to salvation? No.
Is accepting RCC dogma and doctrine essential to faith or salvation? No.
Is the RCC an infalliable authority? No.
Did the RCC canonize scripture? No, but it helped to do so as part of the greater Church.
Can one be a Christian and follower of Jesus Christ in this life apart from the RCC? Yes
Can one be a Christian and follower of Jesus Christ in this life as part of the RCC? Yes.
Is the Holy and true Church one? Yes
Does it include members from all sorts of denominations including the RCC and Church of the Nazarene? Yes.

[Benjamin Burch]

Despite all the talk of post modernism, folks still hold a place in their heart for something concrete and secure, the RCC offers this.

Way back when, Robert Webber inferred that was because this age group would finally hit postmodern bottom and long for something unchanging, "otherworldy" in experience and deep in theology.

I believe that you are correct in your assessment that the post modern mindset is permanent in very few folks, most people have always grown out of it. We used to call it the generation gap when I was young, I'm sure that there were various and sundry descriptors for this going all the way back into antiquity. unless we realize that temporal nature of this mindset, unless we realize that for most it is a phase, we will die on the vine. People who are serious, seek out a serious place.

These comments are a bit curious, and seem to flow from an under-developed, or less-than-accurate understanding of postmodernism and postmodern theology that seems rampant among many "modernist" and quasi/pseudo modernist Christians whom I know.

Postmodernity has nothing to do with being wavering, and is not itself in opposition to anything fixed or unchanging. It is directly opposed to the certainty of modern philosophy, grounded in the confidence of human progress, most specifically the certainty of the philosophy of Hegel and his concept of progress..... which eventually found us at the realization of the lack of progress, and the utter lack of reason for confidence in humanity.... Two World Wars and the Holocaust.

Many great Christian theologians have been "postmodernist", and in no way has it typically been "temporal" nor anything like "adolescence."

If you want a deep, rich, unchanging, other-worldly theology from a postmodern Catholic, I suggest you read either of these two books:

God Without Being - Jean-Luc Marion

The Erotic Phenomenon - Jean-Luc Marion

[Jim Chabot]

These comments are a bit curious, and seem to flow from an under-developed, or less-than-accurate understanding of postmodernism and postmodern theology that seems rampant among many "modernist" and quasi/pseudo modernist Christians whom I know.

Postmodernity has nothing to do with being wavering, and is not itself in opposition to anything fixed or unchanging. It is directly opposed to the certainty of modern philosophy, grounded in the confidence of human progress, most specifically the certainty of the philosophy of Hegel and his concept of progress..... which eventually found us at the realization of the lack of progress, and the utter lack of reason for confidence in humanity.... Two World Wars and the Holocaust.

Many great Christian theologians have been "postmodernist", and in no way has it typically been "temporal" nor anything like "adolescence."

If you want a deep, rich, unchanging, other-worldly theology from a postmodern Catholic, I suggest you read either of these two books:

God Without Being - Jean-Luc Marion

The Erotic Phenomenon - Jean-Luc Marion

I don't think that either one of us spoke directly to the theology itself or even to the mindset. Rather we spoke to the observation that this is something that most folks grow out of. And further that we speak not of scholars and theologians but rather to the unwashed masses. I don't mean this to be unkind in any way, just an observation that this is a passing phase in so many people. It's been a while since I've read Barna's thoughts on this, I do believe that this was his attribution as to why folks would be flocking to solid, unchanging, and authoritative theology.

[Dan Henderson]

Or, maybe I reject postmodernism and its theology because I do understand it.

[Benjamin Burch]

Or, maybe I reject postmodernism and its theology because I do understand it.

I'm sorry Dan, you don't, and you've proven it multiple times on NN. The idea that you could treat postmodern theology as a monolithic entity, capable of being an "it" which is rejected as a whole, already shows that you do not understand. I really don't mean to sound like a jerk, but it is immensely frustrating that some of the most orthodox theologians out there have used postmodernity to recover orthodox theology from the ills of modernity, and they're ignored and treated like they're no different than Brian McLaren. Heck, even Catherine Keller, who is on a far more extreme, less orthodox end of postmodern theology is something far different than anything you seem to have addressed any time you've used the term.

[Benjamin Burch]

My responce to the authority issue.

Is accepting RCC authority essential to salvation? No.
Is accepting RCC dogma and doctrine essential to faith or salvation? No.
Is the RCC an infalliable authority? No.
Did the RCC canonize scripture? No, but it helped to do so as part of the greater Church.
Can one be a Christian and follower of Jesus Christ in this life apart from the RCC? Yes
Can one be a Christian and follower of Jesus Christ in this life as part of the RCC? Yes.
Is the Holy and true Church one? Yes
Does it include members from all sorts of denominations including the RCC and Church of the Nazarene? Yes.

I like the ideas here. They all sound good. However, I've never seen a strong, robust ecclesiology offered which is capable of serving for the foundation of such statements and ideas. Generally it rests on a pneumatology which is actually generally separate from the Church in this construction.

[Dan Henderson]

I'm sorry Dan, you don't, and you've proven it multiple times on NN. The idea that you could treat postmodern theology as a monolithic entity, capable of being an "it" which is rejected as a whole, already shows that you do not understand. I really don't mean to sound like a jerk, but it is immensely frustrating that some of the most orthodox theologians out there have used postmodernity to recover orthodox theology from the ills of modernity, and they're ignored and treated like they're no different than Brian McLaren. Heck, even Catherine Keller, who is on a far more extreme, less orthodox end of postmodern theology is something far different than anything you seem to have addressed any time you've used the term.

You are not sorry. I have nothing to prove. I have very little to say about it because you have't said anything I haven't already heard many times. Post something interesting and original and I might have something to say about it. I might even use a few of your big words in their proper context.

[Benjamin Burch]

You are not sorry. I have nothing to prove. I've tried to pretend that you have superior intellect in order to appease you a little in this subject, but you don't. My leisure reading far exceeds your knowledge in your own disclipline. You berely scratch the surface in modernist thought, you haven't even gotten to postmodern yet. I have very little to say about it because you have't said anything I haven't already heard many times. Post something interesting and original and I might have something to say about it. I might even use a few of your big words in their proper context.

Translated:

Here is the root cause of any issue you would like to adress in the Nazarene or any other conversation among Christians: "I, however, think the Bible is wrong." This is the sum of 6 years of theological training? Thank you for summarizing our problems so succinctly. I personally would rather be an uneducated fool, accept any topic covered by the Bible at face value, and consider the question settled than to be educated enough to make such a staement, in any context or proof text. For me it doesn't matter how Benjamin decides to determine the difference between right and wrong. His arguments no longer have any merit.

Carry on. One day you and your concerned friends will have to find a new denomination, and everything will be a little bit better.

[Dan Henderson]

Carry on. One day you and your concerned friends will have to find a new denomination, and everything will be a little bit better.

If Nazarenes are pressed to choose (as a group, we do not want to have to choose) between seeming extremes, you will find that we will lean towards fundamentalist.

Lets assume two extremes, just for this example I will call them fundamentalism and Post Modern Theology (in reality neither are the extremes)

Fundmentalist ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post Modern Theologist

Most people of any large group are going to try to say away from the edges (extremes), its safer. However if forced to choose, we will choose or at least lean toward fundamentalism. Most Nazarenes agree with most of 5-point fundamentalism. One might even say that most Nazarenes are 4 1/2 point fundamentalists, the only real debate (among Nazarenes) being centered around the word inerrancy and its meaning.

Rail all you want, these are our roots. Any so-called new theology will be measured from this base.

That one day you speak of will not be in either one of our lifetimes.

[Benjamin Burch]

If Nazarenes are pressed to choose (as a group, we do not want to have to choose) between seeming extremes, you will find that we will lean towards fundamentalist.

Lets assume two extremes, just for this example I will call them fundamentalism and Post Modern Theology (in reality neither are the extremes)

Fundmentalist ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post Modern Theologist

Most people of any large group are going to try to say away from the edges (extremes), its safer. However if forced to choose, we will choose or at least lean toward fundamentalism. Most Nazarenes agree with most of 5-point fundamentalism. One might even say that most Nazarenes are 4 1/2 point fundamentalists, the only real debate (among Nazarenes) being centered around the word inerrancy and its meaning.

Rail all you want, these are our roots. Any so-called new theology will be measured from this base.

That one day you speak of will not be in either one of our lifetimes.

You've illustrated my point for me. .... I know plenty Of Postmodern and postliberal theologians who, too, are 4.5 pointers. It is rather easy and even foundational for a thinker like Marion. But.... Nevermind.

[Bill Morrison]

You've illustrated my point for me. .... I know plenty Of Postmodern and postliberal theologians who, too, are 4.5 pointers. It is rather easy and even foundational for a thinker like Marion. But.... Nevermind.

Ben: I am intrigued by this statement. In my ignorance (and I mean that sincerely, remember I am a biologist not a theologian), my limited experience in this debate would have me side with Dan's statement in post #29 that many (perhaps even most?) Nazarenes are leaning towards about 4.5 fundamentalist (but not prominent Naznet posters to be sure!). To hear you say that any Postmodern or postliberal theologians are 4.5 pointers is very much news to me. Are you using hyperbole here, am I missing some fine point in this debate, what???

BILL

[David Graham]

This is a NAZNET HOST POST

Is it possible for us to exercise "Cool heads" and "warm hearts" in our discussions with each other?
I'm sensing some "harshness" in the personal interaction between people of differing points of view, so before we descend into full scale war, let's try to be a little more amicable with each other.

Blessings,
Dave

[Kami Tuenning]

or, as I instruct kindergartner's when battling a want-to-be bully, "Ignore and walk away". Funny how quickly 5 years old's catch onto that.

[Hans Deventer]

If Nazarenes are pressed to choose (as a group, we do not want to have to choose) between seeming extremes, you will find that we will lean towards fundamentalist.

Thanks and praises be to God, not in my country. Mildred Wynkoop has been quite influential here. (Have helped a little by translating A Theology of Love into Dutch). Would never have become a Nazarene if it weren't that way. Don't want to be suffocated.

[Benjamin Burch]

Ben: I am intrigued by this statement. In my ignorance (and I mean that sincerely, remember I am a biologist not a theologian), my limited experience in this debate would have me side with Dan's statement in post #29 that many (perhaps even most?) Nazarenes are leaning towards about 4.5 fundamentalist (but not prominent Naznet posters to be sure!). To hear you say that any Postmodern or postliberal theologians are 4.5 pointers is very much news to me. Are you using hyperbole here, am I missing some fine point in this debate, what???

BILL

AHHH! I have typed up a really long response twice, and my browser keeps being janky.... I will try to get a good response to you by tomorrow...

[Bill Morrison]

I appreciate that Ben...I am expecting to learn something!

BILL

[Marian Schwaller Carney]

I don't think I personally know many Nazarenes that would say they are in either camp as fundamentalists or as post moderns. Maybe a handful on either side, that's it. I like it that way.

Earlier tonight I saw another disagreement - Red Sox and Rays. Some batters were getting hit with the ball, and when it happened in the top of the 9th the benches hit the field. Grey shirts and red shirts streaming en masse towards each other. Players separating coaches. It was an interesting brawl to watch take place and to watch get broken up. No one was ejected from the game, which I think was the right call. But if it happens again in this weekend's series, and it very well could, I am sure they will.

[Jim Chabot]

I don't think I personally know many Nazarenes that would say they are in either camp as fundamentalists or as post moderns. Maybe a handful on either side, that's it. I like it that way.

Earlier tonight I saw another disagreement - Red Sox and Rays. Some batters were getting hit with the ball, and when it happened in the top of the 9th the benches hit the field. Grey shirts and red shirts streaming en masse towards each other. Players separating coaches. It was an interesting brawl to watch take place and to watch get broken up. No one was ejected from the game, which I think was the right call. But if it happens again in this weekend's series, and it very well could, I am sure they will.

Come on down here "south of the border" and visit some campmeetings, you will find literally hundreds of Fundamantalist Nazarenes, most of them born and brought up in the Nazarene Church and brought up as Fundamentalists. There everywhere I tell ya!

[Hans Deventer]

Come on down here "south of the border" and visit some campmeetings, you will find literally hundreds of Fundamantalist Nazarenes, most of them born and brought up in the Nazarene Church and brought up as Fundamentalists. There everywhere I tell ya!

I would be interested in Maine because of its natural beauty. It seems best to keep it limited to that, if I ever get around to doing a proper visit. Always good to get some information.

[Jim Chabot]

I would be interested in Maine because of its natural beauty. It seems best to keep it limited to that, if I ever get around to doing a proper visit. Always good to get some information.

Should you ever come to do a proper visit, you are more than welcome to stay at our house in Maine, and I would be honored to show you around the area. I can also assure you that the Pastor in Caribou you would find to your liking theologically. And there is always Jon Twitchel's church just 300 miles to the south of us!


I do think that you would enjoy visiting a campmeeting from a historical perspective, this is where our denomination came from, at least one side of it. Three of the campmeetings where we serve are over 100 years old, Charles Finney himself preached at Douglas Camp!

This coming year we will be blessed by the Preaching and Singing of our own Gary Bond, Revivalism Coordinator for the CoTN. Better yet, our evangelists come to live with us! Can't wait to see Gary again, he is a great guy!

http://www.douglascampmeeting.com/2010_press_stories