What are the "must reads" to understand postmodern philosophy?
What are the "must reads" to understand postmodern philosophy?
Post modern philosophy has been affected my many people like Nietzsche and Kant. Christianity lives in parallel with postmodernism so I would suggest for all Nazarenes reading Missio Dei (Schwanz, Keith and Joseph Coleson, Editors. Missio Dei, A Wesleyan Understanding. Kansas City: Beacon Hill Press, 2011.) edited by Coleson and Schwanz with contributors by many NTS faculty. This book gives Nazarenes a center from which to consider the affects of postmodernity on our church and culture today.
Stan Grenz's neat little book called a Primer on Post-Modernism is a good start. Good overview....
CWC
I second thatOriginally Posted by Charles W Christian
It really doesn't matter, since each book, and each opinion is equally correct. It would be wrong of me to value one book above any other. And when you consider that language has no inherent meaning, only whatever we the readers bring to it, it seems like a pointless exercise.
On second thought, let's not go to Camelot. It is a silly place.
Well it certainly doesn't change the gospel message which was first preached in a world with many false gods and different customs. If anything people in this day and age would understand that same message in more depth. Its even written down in a book to read. Faith is still a key. Though scripture states faith comes from hearing and hearing from the word of God.
So reading books on what some define as postmodern is only relevant to trying to understand what some people are defining as postmodern.
Randy
"The Lord is my light and my salvation; whom shall I fear? The Lord is the strength of my life; of whom shall I be afraid?"
(Psalms 27:1)
It helps to have a fair grounding in existentialism before approaching post-modernity, I think.
Yes! I have suggested Kierkegaard's Philosophical Fragments and Heidegger's Being and Time to Eric privately, as a means of understanding the initial movement from modernity to postmodernity.
- Ben
Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death! And to those in the tombs, bestowing life!
Χριστὸς ἀνέστη ἐκ νεκρῶν, θανάτῳ θάνατον πατήσας! καὶ τοῖς ἐν τοῖς μνήμασι, ζωὴν χαρισάμενος!
James K A Smith has a small book - "Who's Afraid of Post-modernism" which is an excellent introduction to postmodern philosophers. You need a strong understanding of philosophical lingo, but it's great for what it is.
...just my $.02.
If others are curious, I suggested the following people to Eric generally:
Martin Heidegger
Jacques Derrida
Emmanuel Levinas
Edmund Husserl
Friedrich Nietchze
Michel Foucault
John D. Caputo
Jean-Luc Marion
Karl Barth
Given other things Eric has informed me about his inquiry, I have suggested the following works to him:
Jacques Derrida - Given Time
Jacques Derrida - "To Forgive The Unforgivable and the Imprescriptible" (in Questioning God edited by John D. Caputo).
Jean-Luc Marion - God Without Being
Jean-Luc Marion - Erotic Phenomenon
Jean-Luc Marion - In Excess: Studies of Saturated Phenomena
Jean-Luc Marion - Being Given: Toward a Phenomenology of Givenness
Jean-Luc Marion - The Visible and the Revealed
Karl Barth - Church Dogmatics vol.1 - The Doctrine of the Word of God
William T. Cavanaugh - Torture and Eucharist
William T. Cavanaugh - Being Consumed: Economics and Christian Desire
Søren Kierkegaard - Practice in Christianity
- Ben
Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death! And to those in the tombs, bestowing life!
Χριστὸς ἀνέστη ἐκ νεκρῶν, θανάτῳ θάνατον πατήσας! καὶ τοῖς ἐν τοῖς μνήμασι, ζωὴν χαρισάμενος!
Looks like a crash course in French might be in order?
Forget it. It's going to be tough reading even in your native language. At least, that goes for JLM.
"No scripture can mean that God is not love, or that his mercy is not over all his works" (John Wesley - Free Grace, 26)
You ever wonder if people actually understand Nietchze when they use his quote about God?
"Means we use must be as pure as the ends we seek."
I know he gave me headaches when I was in school. Not sure I would go so far as to say I really understood but if there is enough of a grade riding on it one can get at least familiar.
It is not enough to be right, you have to be like Jesus.
In my experience, people understand Nietchze's quote to the same degree that they understand John Lennon's quote about being more popular than Jesus Christ. In other words...not even a little bit.
But the quote(s) have a really high 'boogeyman coefficient' for sermonizing.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us wthout end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
- C.S. Lewis
I understood him to be talking from a philosophical view point in terms of how society had progressed when he made that saying. Not so much God is dead, but as God within society is dead. Of coursed I have not read him full due to only take very few philosophy classes, but that was the general idea I got from him in those classes.
"Means we use must be as pure as the ends we seek."
Interesting thread. Certainly the post modern philosophies have profoundly affected our culture. Technically we have emerged from the post modern era into the "Technology Era" and we now live in the "Information Era." Both the technology era and the information era have been profoundly shaped by post modernism. In our "Information Era" of our culture we see an insatiable appetite for INSTANT information. There is a generalized anxiety in our culture affected by the constant stimuli of instant information in the form of instant messages, smart phones, i-pads, which all contributes to a shortening attention span which means that students need constant techno-information through video which makes the spoken sermon obsolete, and by now you have lost your attention span reading this thread and fell asleep. This past week, I turned off my computer and cell phone in my very best penmanship I hand wrote a few notes of encouragement and put a stamp on them put them in the mailbox realizing the mail lady had already been to the church mailbox so my notes would not be picked up until the next day and at best be delivered a few days later but I need to practice the timely art of patience.. Personally I am still encouraged by ink on printed notecard. This past week I received two thank yo note sand a card of congratulations. I place them on the edge of a book case in my office and I read them over again. This past Saturday I celebrated the retirement of a friend and at this celebration I practiced the lost art of face to face conversation with a college friend I have not seen in over ten years. As we lamented our busyness, my friend said, "All the technology we now have as added demands on my time." Forty years ago the great promise of technology was to free us to have more leisure time. The problem with technology and information is that culture and society demands more of both.
After taking several online classes this year I decided to take a technology fast for the summer. The first few days were just plain awful. And then the fudging over when it was necessary to be on the computer started in. Now, a month into my 'fast' here I still am...I've given up on excuses and just admit that I can't leave my internet friends.But, I am better. I will leave after a few minutes or will even shut the thing off after dinner. Baby steps I guess.
And I don't have a smart phone. I crave one during a power outage or when a hurricane or blizzard is in the area. But I still have some neo-ludditism within me giving me the strength to resist.
Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth. 1 John 3:18
There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. 1 John 4:18a
Become an organ donor ~ donatelife.net ~ www.organdonor.gov
Technology is about the only avenue I have to keep in touch with friends. With out I could not drive and meet friends at their home or vice versa. Sometimes I wonder if technology is the way it is because it is now able to keep up with the human mind. I know people who are the same way with books that I am with technology.
"Means we use must be as pure as the ends we seek."
I assumed there were English translations of each, and have been for everything I've read...
- Ben
Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death! And to those in the tombs, bestowing life!
Χριστὸς ἀνέστη ἐκ νεκρῶν, θανάτῳ θάνατον πατήσας! καὶ τοῖς ἐν τοῖς μνήμασι, ζωὴν χαρισάμενος!
Susan got the poor attempt at humor. I assume as well there are English translations!
But you don't get the same quality in English. I've been saying that postmodern has gotten a big push from psychology and the understanding sociology.
"Means we use must be as pure as the ends we seek."
WOW. This thread has been gone so long I forget I ever started it. And now its back!
“Martyrs rather than the pastors of megachurches might now become our evangelistic exemplars, and the ‘excellence’ of evangelistic practice’ will be measurable not by numbers but rather by obedience to a crucified God”
- Bryan Stone Evangelism After Christendom
Probably not I just got bored last night so I went to resurrect old threads I liked.
"Means we use must be as pure as the ends we seek."
Before The Crash, I would do that all the time.
Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth. 1 John 3:18
There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. 1 John 4:18a
Become an organ donor ~ donatelife.net ~ www.organdonor.gov
I didn't notice until this comment that I'd been reading a thread from last year.
So... Did you read any of those books?
No. One of my frustrations with organized studies is that there is never enough time to probe the questions that arise in one class before the next class starts and a whole other set of questions is raised. So, during the program I am in, I have been making notes of meta-questions that I would like to think more about when this degree program is done. Interestingingly this thread touches both of them. The first deals with a theory of Christ's sacramental presence in postmodern thought. All of the popular theories are rooted in a particular philosophical framework so you get issue of "substance." I am wondering if postmodernism (or post-postmodernism) might be able to help us move beyond those philosophical frameworks to give us more helpful theories of Christ's sacramental presence.
The other has to do with the relationship of scripture and tradition in a post-Christendom world. Again, all of the traditional ways of answering this question whether it by the RC option, the Protestant "Sola Scriptura", or the Wesleyan "Quadrilateral" are arguments of Christendom largely shaped by modernity. So I am wondering if Post-Christendom/Post-modernity might give us a more helpful way of understanding the tenuous relationship between these two sources of revelation.
But to answer your question, no, I've not yet read any of them, but I do have the email exchange that Ben and I shared saved for later reference...
“Martyrs rather than the pastors of megachurches might now become our evangelistic exemplars, and the ‘excellence’ of evangelistic practice’ will be measurable not by numbers but rather by obedience to a crucified God”
- Bryan Stone Evangelism After Christendom
Some would say there is no relationship they are the same.
"Means we use must be as pure as the ends we seek."
Indeed...
“Martyrs rather than the pastors of megachurches might now become our evangelistic exemplars, and the ‘excellence’ of evangelistic practice’ will be measurable not by numbers but rather by obedience to a crucified God”
- Bryan Stone Evangelism After Christendom
Shhhh don't let it get out it might upset those with a philosophical construct explaining a relationship and they might fall off there stool in shock.Indeed...
"Means we use must be as pure as the ends we seek."
On the relationship with society and scripture...
I work as a designer of large scale information systems. These systems tend to fail spectacularly as they scale. IMO, they are wonderful case studies for those interested in the collapse of the modern project.
Computer systems work only if there are stable semantics and formal syntax (grammar). These notions of truth sit at the heart of modern conceptions of truth and language. We data modelers and system designers are the last paid moderns. "Customer" exists as a platonic kind which can be fully and adequately defined by a set of essential attributes. Until it can't. Then it all goes to pieces.
This problem has led me to do research work with some sociologists out of the Ethnomethodology and Conversational Analysis traditions. So, if I understand anything about post-modernism, it is barely and only a thin aspect of the larger movement. Still, I share this observation.
The EM/CA folks will tell you that it's not what the word means (semantics) or how the sentence was constructed (grammar). The issue is what social work is accomplished by the utterance.
Here's an example. Put on your modern hat and think of "car". If you build databases, think of the columns in your "car" table. The context is a dinner party.
Jim: Hey John. Nice to see you. How did you get here tonight?
John: Car.
Jim: Oh really? Would you mind giving me a ride home later?
John: No, I can't. I came in a cab.
The CA analysis of this focuses on the social work done. They would say that the first question was not a question really. It's called a "pre-question" and it's purpose is to alert John that Jim wants to ask a more invasive question. The response by John, "Car" is not a direct answer with stable semantic meaning. Instead, it is a signal to Jim that John is giving him the permission to ask the question that John already expects.
A long while back I read Fretheim's "The Suffering of God" which contains a crude overview of a Biblical theology approach (as opposed to a modern systematic approach). In reading it, I was struck by some big similarities between Biblical theology and the approach of EM/CA. Revelation is constituted as a social activity (I would include God in that, btw). There are important differences too. The scriptures are rendered materially and persist in time and we interact socially with material objects in ways that I don't think EM/CA has a good handle on.
But the core point made by Fretheim as I understand it is similar. Social work is done around and through scripture. A buddy of mine (and ENC grad now literature professor not in the Naz system) refers to it as the "linguistic turn".
I want to underscore the issue of materiality of scripture as being a problem in terms of our understanding. I focus more of energy now on infrastructure, which to my understanding includes published works. The broader problem that I don't think we have a handle on is how we socially make meaning with each other (and with God) as we interact with material infrastructure (which includes writings, like the Bible).
One thing I've very sure of is that the modern approach of systematic understandings and stable definitions.... that just don't hunt no more.
Certified ski instructor on the slippery slope.
That pretty much what the movement is saying it's just trying to form it so that moderns can understand and pretty much gets huge backlash from that community.
"Means we use must be as pure as the ends we seek."
Being a fairly serious student of Barth myself, I don't see him as a Post Modernist.......Karl Barth - Church Dogmatics vol.1 - The Doctrine of the Word of God
I like to see him as one who critiqued "Modernism" from within and reempathised the necessity of faith over reason (alone).
His arguement that the Jesus who is revealed through scripture is the embodied revelation of God to the world certainly follows the "Modernist Method". And although it was not his intent, he builds a "reasonable" case for the historical Christ, which gives a foundation to his work beyond "mere faith" alone as well.
IMHO it is difficult to classify these great theologians who lived in an era before "Post Modernism" was itself "classified". Neo-Orthodoxy and Existentialism may have paved the way for the emergence of Post Modernism, but the early (and latter) proponants of such theological positions might not feel particularly comfortable in being "lumped" under the Post Modernist banner; especially when Post Modernism itself is not a homogeneous position that is "clearly defined".
Diogenese Allen makes the distinction between capital 'P' post- modernism, which can have several specific and debatable meanings and lower-case 'p' post-modernity, which is the loose collection of schools of thought that emerge after the modern movement.
LIS Scholar Elin Jacobs has a great paper entitled "Classification and Categorization: A Distinction That Makes a Difference". Short version, categories overlap but classification don't (in theory). Murphy's book, "The Big Book of Concepts" makes the point that humans nearly always think in terms of overlapping categories.
"So, what kind of music do play at this fine establishment?"
"Why we have both kinds: Country *and* Western"
Certified ski instructor on the slippery slope.
And a fine taste in music they have too
You can find some of the books I'd recommend in the footnotes of this piece on postmodernism:
http://didache.nazarene.org/index.ph...id=171&Itemid=
Tom
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