Before AD 70

[Jim Chabot]

The fact is that there are a number of opinions held by Christians regarding the Book of the Revelation.
Some take a Historicist view, others the Preterist view, others the Futurist view, others the Spiritualist view and still there are others who take views comprised of a mixture of these or who like myself take no view at all. And within these "Broad" views there are a number of opinions about who or what constitutes the two beasts of Revelation 12 & 13, not to mention many other issues as well......
so the way I see it is that no view constitutes the final word on this....... and yes Larry, that includes the Preterist view, even your particular position within it.

Yes, yes and yes! Most certainly there is no final view, nor is there an obvious view either. I have read many thousands of pages on this and it is clear, no view is without problems. Moreover not one of these views is without problems that can be seen as insurmountable by those who hold differing views.

IMHO the Preterist view doesn't fit enough of the prophecy of the Revelation (or other prophecies) to be viable.
e.g. From my study of Ancient Roman history, I understand that at no time was the Roman army over a million men..... it was certainly much smaller that this.
How then do you explain Revelation chapter 9 where it speaks of some enormous force of 200 million Horsemen preparing to attack God's perople presumedly at Jerusalem.... at least the Preterists I've read believe that this was the army's target...... although they suddenly become change tack and move away from Person Centred "Beasts" and such and say that it was to represent a large army! Good grief; what an understatement! Modern China would be hard pressed to assemble, arm and control such a force! Ancient Rome had no hope of doing so!

Give it a break Larry and allow us skeptics to continue to be so, while holding fast that which you believe if you must!

And here is one of these insurmountable problems with my view. I'll admit that they are there, no problem admitting this. I agree with you wholeheartedly David! Yes I will continue to hold fast to my view until I find something that would sway me, and of course I'll gladly allow the skeptics to continue in their beliefs as well. I'm not so sure that I'm willing that the skeptics continue to practice skepticism, as I have plenty in stock for them should they desire a debate. Let's all have the grace to apply skepticism sparingly shall we?

To wit, I would offer that last Sunday we sang a contemporary version of "All Hail The Power of Jesus Name" The arranger had really interpreted the song well, capturing both the majesty of heaven and the joy of the event! Seeking to bring an anticipatory sense to our congregation, I asked that folks think on the book of Revelation. Then I asked them to forget about prophesy, forget about timelines, forget about whatever bad things are spoken of there. At which point I got some rather confused looks, to which I said, let's remember that John was in heaven and he is describing it, lets think on that! There is plenty more to Revelation that goes beyond our theories of how it played out back in 70AD!

[David Graham]

There is plenty more to Revelation that goes beyond our theories of how it played out back in 70AD!

AMEN AND AMEN!

Thank you Jim.

[Larry Parsons]

Larry, there's an old saying that goes like this: "If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and smells like a duck, than chances are that its a duck!"
Likewise, if Domition enforced Emperor worship as he did as a test of loyalty to himself and the empire (and remember that in the east there were many temples dedicated to the imperial cult) and Christian and Jews refused to do this and thus paid the penalty of their noncompliance with their lives, then YES, I'd suggest they were being persecuted.

Tacitus was no fool, I'm sure he researched the question thoroughly before he wrote about it, and such rough times would surely endure long and with clarity in the early churches memory. I also suspect that Tacitus wasn't a liar either or a fantasist.

The fact is that there are a number of opinions held by Christians regarding the Book of the Revelation.
Some take a Historicist view, others the Preterist view, others the Futurist view, others the Spiritualist view and still there are others who take views comprised of a mixture of these or who like myself take no view at all. And within these "Broad" views there are a number of opinions about who or what constitutes the two beasts of Revelation 12 & 13, not to mention many other issues as well......
so the way I see it is that no view constitutes the final word on this....... and yes Larry, that includes the Preterist view, even your particular position within it.

IMHO the Preterist view doesn't fit enough of the prophecy of the Revelation (or other prophecies) to be viable.
e.g. From my study of Ancient Roman history, I understand that at no time was the Roman army over a million men..... it was certainly much smaller that this.
How then do you explain Revelation chapter 9 where it speaks of some enormous force of 200 million Horsemen preparing to attack God's perople presumedly at Jerusalem.... at least the Preterists I've read believe that this was the army's target...... although they suddenly become change tack and move away from Person Centred "Beasts" and such and say that it was to represent a large army! Good grief; what an understatement! Modern China would be hard pressed to assemble, arm and control such a force! Ancient Rome had no hope of doing so!

Give it a break Larry and allow us skeptics to continue to be so, while holding fast that which you believe if you must!

There are no literary records to suggest a persecution of any kind by Domitian against Christians. Neither Tacitus or Pliny, who were members of the Roman Senate during Domitian’s reign, nor Suetonius make any record of any kind of campaign towards or against Christians. Both Tacitus and Suetonius left a record of Nero’s persecution of the Christians. If there was such a persecution of the magnitude described by the late date advocates by Domitian, would it not demand a place in the records of these and other writers? The earliest historical record of a Domitian persecution is by Eusebius; he cites Melito and Hegesippus in his Ecclesiastical History. He says of these men seventy-five years after Domitian’s reign, “He was the second that raised a persecution against us” (Ogden 416). Eusebius wrote this 200 years after Domitian’s reign. As he speaks of “martyrdoms” during Domitian’s time, he never cites a single case of a Christian dying as a result of persecution. This is quite significant since Origen, A.D. 185 – 254, tells that only a few, “whose number could be easily enumerated,” had died for the sake of Christ up to his time (Ogden 416). He recorded this at least 50 years before Eusebius wrote his history. If the number of those who had died for Christ’s sake could be so easily enumerated, surely Eusebius could have named just one Christian who died under a persecution of Domitian.
John wrote to seven specific, historical churches that were located in Asia. And these churches were undergoing great suffering which was the time of the great tribulation that began in 64 AD. John was writing to them to comfort them during the time of this tribulation. When he wrote to them he wanted them to understand what he was saying. We have some who believe that revelation couldn’t be understood until now. But what does these people do about Rev.1:3a “Blessed is he who read and those who hear the words of the prophecy and heed the things which are written in it” If they were going to heed or obey then they had to understand what John was writing. If we are going to understand the book of Revelation then we also need to understand that John expected the prophesied events to occur soon see Rev.1:1,3 These verses clearly demand that the events of Revelation were impending when John was writing. Remember John is writing to real historical first century churches. These are the churches that are suffering. He is ministering to them and he expect them to understand and to act on his instruction. John was not writing about events that would take place two or three thousand years in the future. John was prophesying events future to his own day, but now in our past. As you know the futurism teaches that all that all the events of Revelation from chapter 4-on are still in the future. If that is true why John would even bother to write to the seven historical churches of the first century. But we crazy preterists believe that the bulk of Revelation has already occurred within the first century.
Looking at Rev.1:7 the theme verse of the book of Revelation and you may say this verse proof that Revelation is all about the second coming of Christ. But looks can be conceiving. In this verse we have a cloud riding Christ “Behold He is coming with the clouds” Can you believe that we can find a cloud riding God in the Old Testament and when we do we notice that God is bringing judgments upon men. (See Isa.19:1;Ezek.32:7-8) Notice what the Revelation theme verse is saying; Christ will come to and cause mourning among those who pierced Him. (Those who sought his death in the first century) This verse is about a events that took place at the middle of the first century. This is just one verse from the book of Revelation that show that Revelation was written before AD 70
Speaking of the 200 million number there is no basis for insisting on that numbar to be literally.
Thanks
Larry

[David Graham]

Aghhh..... I see that I've used" Tacitus'" name in vain!? Indeed, he was no fool..... although I feel rather foolish right now! (I did research him, but found nothing that could contribute positively towards this debate, hence my mistaken use of his name.... he was obviously in my mind at the time); I meant of course "Eusebius"!

However, with reference to Tacitus, he was hardly complimentary of Domitian's reign, and neither was he particularly sympathetic towards the Christians; hence he (IMHO) was more concerned about Domitian's attack upon Roman nobility than what happened to some subversive Jewish sect.

This is quite significant since Origen, A.D. 185 – 254, tells that only a few, “whose number could be easily enumerated,” had died for the sake of Christ up to his time (Ogden 416). He recorded this at least 50 years before Eusebius wrote his history. If the number of those who had died for Christ’s sake could be so easily enumerated, surely Eusebius could have named just one Christian who died under a persecution of Domitian.

Eusebius however differs with Origen's assessment of Domitian's persecutions. Perhaps Origen is taking a more "localised" insular view; e.g. From the perspective of the Antioch church region where he was located; or he is taking a specifically targetted definition of Persecution, where Christians were targets of imperial persecution because of their faith alone rather than those who were "incidently" caught up in it, as I will agree that the Christians were under Domitian's reign of terror. In either case, Eusebius was the historian and Origon was not..... so I see more credance in Eusebius' account.

As for Eusebius not naming any who were persecuted...... keep that question for him when you see him in Heaven. Possibly, he had no specific names available to him?

As for all the rest you wrote Larry, we've been over all of this before.....
You're a Preterist and are therefore comfortable with that understanding..... great!
I am not..... and I feel comfortable taking no particular position on the issue.

[Wes Smith]

Just a note to say, "What an enjoyable thread. Thank you all!"

Friend,

Wes

[Jim Chabot]

John wrote to seven specific, historical churches that were located in Asia. And these churches were undergoing great suffering which was the time of the great tribulation that began in 64 AD. John was writing to them to comfort them during the time of this tribulation. When he wrote to them he wanted them to understand what he was saying. We have some who believe that revelation couldn’t be understood until now. But what does these people do about Rev.1:3a “Blessed is he who read and those who hear the words of the prophecy and heed the things which are written in it” If they were going to heed or obey then they had to understand what John was writing. If we are going to understand the book of Revelation then we also need to understand that John expected the prophesied events to occur soon see Rev.1:1,3 These verses clearly demand that the events of Revelation were impending when John was writing.

This to me is persuasive. Seems to me that the letters to the churches and that the text indicates that this is a current issue and concern is a strong indicator to the dating. As I've indicated earlier in this thread, the city of Laodicea was destroyed by earthquake in the sixties and wasn't rebuilt until somewhere around 135.

What I hadn't noticed until now is the tie in with preterism. I have been approaching this strictly from the viewpoint of dating, given that preterism is fine with either date. However if we consider John's instructions whereby the initial readers needed to heed his advice and warning, then it does tie in. Either way if we consider this, then something big must have happened in the years after it's writing. Did anything really big happen in the late nineties or early second century that we could point to?

[Jim Chabot]

As for Eusebius not naming any who were persecuted...... keep that question for him when you see him in Heaven. Possibly, he had no specific names available to him?

You know I'm thinking that my mother never did name any of the starving children in India who would have been appreciative of the meals I didn't want to eat.

As for all the rest you wrote Larry, we've been over all of this before.....
You're a Preterist and are therefore comfortable with that understanding..... great!
I am not..... and I feel comfortable taking no particular position on the issue.

Hey David, I just wanted to say that I'm comfortable with you being comfortable, there is a lot there that is helpful regardless of dating or eschatological theories! I'm comfortable with the preterist position, while allowing that few folks see this, and I'm perfectly fine with those who see things another way. Many years ago the National Campmeeting Association required that speculative eschatology be banned from campmeeting platforms, as it was considered a distraction to the message of holiness. I believe that their decision was a wise one.

[David Graham]

Many years ago the National Campmeeting Association required that speculative eschatology be banned from campmeeting platforms, as it was considered a distraction to the message of holiness. I believe that their decision was a wise one.

Absolutely! Very wise indeed.

[Jim Chabot]

Hey David. I think that this thread could use a rabbit trail or a sidetrack or whatever we call it on naznet, seems that every thread has one so why not?

Five or six years ago we lost a dear dear friend. This kind, wise and loving man had been the Pastor of his church for 58 years. He had a 25 member board, and he personally called and prayed with each board member every morning for many years. He had been the President of the campmeeting nearest to his church for 35 years. Back in the 70's there was incredible racial tension and rioting broke out in his city. e stood on the steps of city hall and preached to the Black Panthers, they stood down. He was the chaplain to the local police force, and to the local fishing fleet for many years, his portrait hangs in the foyer of the whaling museum. Should you mention his name anywhere in the county, there was a good chance that whomever you were speaking to had heard of him.

So, on a nice Saturday afternoon, the first weekend of campmeeting, it came as a complete shock when word of his passing came about an hour prior to the evening service. I saw many folks come into the meeting, weeping with heads bowed. For me, it felt as if I had been hit in the forehead with a hammer, I felt numb. And then I thought of the poor fellow who would have to take to the platform and preach. What could he possibly say, what subject could possibly bring comfort, what words could he say that would even be heard? And I thought it would be best to pray for this fellow, so that's what I did. I preset things on the console the best I could and I prayed right up until the sermon began.

But there was no sermon. The evangelist that year was a very gifted pastor from our district. He has committed the books of John, Jonah and Revelation to memory and he has set passages from each to song as well. That Saturday nite, he recited, canted and sang the first thirteen chapters of Revelation. At a time like this, it is God who should be speaking and that is who we heard!

On Sunday evening, he presented the remainder of Revelation to us. No sermon, no message, no commentary, just the text set to music and drama. To this day when I read Revelation, sometimes I hear his voice narrating for me.

For the rest of the week we heard sermons from Revelation. Not one though given to eschatology, not one thought given to speculation. We heard sermons on the teaching given in the letters, we heard sermons about heaven, we heard sermons on the teaching. We heard sermons unlike most any we had heard.

This fellow is coming back this year to provide the music. I hope someday soon we have him back to preach again.

[David Graham]

He has committed the books of John, Jonah and Revelation to memory and he has set passages from each to song as well.

Wow, that must have taken great discipline to remember all of those verses. I thought that I had done well, commiting to memory John Chapters 1 and 3 and Philippians 2: 1-11, Oh and of course a few psalms: i.e. 1, 23, 133, 150 and other miscellaneous passages from the old and new testaments. But to memorise whole books is exceptional!

That Saturday nite, he recited, canted and sang the first thirteen chapters of Revelation. At a time like this, it is God who should be speaking and that is who we heard!

On Sunday evening, he presented the remainder of Revelation to us. No sermon, no message, no commentary, just the text set to music and drama. To this day when I read Revelation, sometimes I hear his voice narrating for me.

We stand amazed at this so often and yet, should we really be surprised? Do we not believe that God's word is powerful and "sharper than any two edged sword"?
There is a fellow in my church who takes very seriously the ministry of reading the scriptures. He normally prefers to take a low profile but when he agrees to read the scriptures he really prepares well. First he studies the text, then he prayerfully meditates upon it and then presents it with all of the emotion and appropriate inflection which they contain in their context..... and the people are blessed in the process. I remember on one occassion after he had read a passage that it felt like an anti-climax to get up and preach.

But the fellow you are speaking about is a preacher, musician and singer as well, so those present the potential for additional blessings through the use of God's word. Thank God for people like that!

[Randy Wise]

What do you mean it did matter? The most natural interpretation of Revelation 11 is to suggests that John is referring to the literal temple,for in literal Jerusalem did God have his temple. This show that the temple was still standing when John wrote Revelation.
Thanks
Larry

Or in future years from now a temple will be at the time God gives one last testimony before the great tribulation. Who kills the two witnesses? How is that beast destroyed?

Randy

[Larry Parsons]

Or in future years from now a temple will be at the time God gives one last testimony before the great tribulation. Who kills the two witnesses? How is that beast destroyed?

Randy

I think it good idea to understand who John wrote to when he was wrote the Revelation letter. He was writing to a particular people who were living in the 7 cities that are listed at Rev.1:11. These are real historical cities with real 1st. century churches. Not only did John write to actually first century churches (Rev.1:9) He wanted those first century Christians to understand what he was writing. We see this idea in verse one for in this verse he states that he wanted to reveal or to show something to them. At verse 3a we get the same idea that they are to hear and to heed what he was writing. He is also informing his readers of the first century that he is expecting the prophesied events to occur soon. If the events wasn't going to take place soon why in the world was he writing to the first century churches? John was writing to a contemporary audience. So we need to remember when reading about the events in Revelation they have take place shortly after John wrote the letter.
In the 11th chapter we get idea that temple and the city of Jerusalem was still standing when John wrote Revelation and because of this we feel that John must have writen Revelation before the temple and Jerusalem was destroy which took place in AD 70. This is the very same temple that Jesus told his disciples “Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here shall be left upon another, which will be torn down” In the next verse the disciples ask “Tell us when will this be? At Matt.24:34 Jesus answer this question. The temple that Jesus was talking about was destroy 40 years later. John tells his fist century reader in Revelation that these things must shortly take place. According to history Vespasian received his commission from Nero to declare war on Jerusalem AD 67. The war end in AD 70. Revelation 11:2 John is saying that 42 months the Gentiles will trample Jerusalem. And the result of this was the destruction of the temple. At the time John wrote these words the Jewish temple was about to be torn down block by block. According to Adam Clarke tell us this is another evidence that John wrote Revelation before AD 70.
Verse 8 is implying that the bodies are lying in the street of Jerusalem and if that is true then Jerusalem was stilling standing.
Who was the beast and how was it killed? Revelation speaks of two beasts one from the land and one from the sea. The land beast was the Jewish persecutors in Jerusalem and Judea that end in AD 70. The beast of the sea was the Roman Empire rule by Nero and Nero committed suicide and Nero didn’t come back to life. But it was the Roman Empire that was revived under Vespasian. While the Roman Empire was being revived it was actually heading for destruction which took place in AD 476.
Speaking of the great tribulation every year we are getting far and far away from it.
Thanks
Larry